English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

alphabet

00:00

At least that's what I fink.

Apr 21, 2023 at 18:41, by alphabet

English was such a good, American language before the British got their hands on it...

CowperKettle

Steel Crown of Romania

The Steel Crown of King Carol I of the Romanians was forged at the Army Arsenal (Arsenalul Armatei) in Bucharest from the steel of a cannon captured by the Romanian Army from the Ottomans during its War of Independence. Carol I chose steel, and not gold, to symbolize the bravery of the Romanian soldiers. He received it during the ceremonies of his coronation and of the proclamation of Romania as a kingdom in 1881. It is the same Crown used in 1922 at the coronation of King Ferdinand I and Queen Maria as sovereigns of Romania, which took place in Alba-Iulia. The Crown was used also during t...

Young guy from Yekaterinburg hacked into a Mayor's Office in Thailand in the night, apparently in psychosis, with an axe. e1.ru/text/incidents/2024/01/20/73141928

Robusto

01:15

Blossom Puzzle, January 19
Letters: E L O S R U V
My score: 323 points
My longest word: 10 letters
🌻 🌸 🌼 🌺 🏵 💐 🌷 💮 🌹 🌻

Nick Alexeev

Folks, I know the difference between sleeping in and oversleeping. Sleeping in is intentional, oversleeping is accidental.

Somebody can say “I overslept, and missed the train.”
If somebody says “I overslept the train.” is that correct?

tchrist

@NickAlexeev I would not say it that way myself. I don't know for sure that nobody ever does so, but it sounds weird to me.

Nick Alexeev

@tchrist Can "[somebody] overslept [opportunity]" be used for humor?

tchrist

@NickAlexeev People do seem to use it transitively like that, but I would not normally do so. Seem jocular.

Mitch

@alphabet Bri'in, innit.

Robusto

01:21

@NickAlexeev It's definitely not common, but I wouldn't call it impossible. It actually appeals to me a bit.

Nick Alexeev

@Robusto Sounds similar to "overstayed [one's] welcome" .

tchrist

> 2. 1526– transitive. To sleep beyond (a particular time); to miss (a train, etc.) by sleeping too long; to sleep through (something). Also figurative.
1526 To be ware, that we ouerslepe nat our tyme. — W. Bonde, Pylgrimage of Perfection iii. sig. RRiiivCitation details for W. Bonde, Pylgrimage of Perfection
…
2002 If I were to oversleep breakfast at the Black Bear Inn, I would head for a Red Hut Cafe. — Washingon Times (Nexis) 2 November e1

Robusto

@tchrist Washington Times??? Now it appeals to me less.

tchrist

Yep.

Others:

> 1799 Flogging every slave..for having over-slept their time in the morning. — Hull Advertiser 3 August 4/1
1839 As is often the case, excitement overpowered sleep, and I awoke in alarm lest I had overslept the time. — M. Taylor, Confessions of Thayg vol. I. x. 227
1871 Our critical nightcaps, in which we have comfortably overslept many similar rumours and false alarms. — J. R. Lowell, My Study Windows 157
1933 You cannot rid yourself of the habit of shutting off the alarm clock at eight, and oversleeping that train. — Modern Psychology November 254/2

The reason that it sounds weird is because you can't "sleep things", so why would you be able to oversleep them?

user 85795

> Washingon Times (Nexis)

actually :-)

Robusto

01:26

@user85795 Not sure what your point is. Maybe I'm missing something.

user 85795

the typo

2002 If I were to oversleep breakfast at the Black Bear Inn, I would head for a Red Hut Cafe. — Washingon Times (Nexis) 2 November e1

tchrist

Has anybody here ever used the word desultory to mean "Disappointing in performance or progress"?

Robusto

@user85795 I didn't even notice that. I read too fast, I guess.

@tchrist I've used it to mean peripatetic, but only when I was high.

Mitch

@Robusto how is that a typo?

tchrist

@Robusto Well yes, it's got that jumpy-aroundy sense.

But Wiktionary attests the meaning I gave, while the OED does not.

user 85795

01:28

@Robusto nah, I just read too slow

Robusto

@Mitch Go figure.

tchrist

Oh. They haven't revised the entry since 1895. That explains it.

Can you guys see this without a subscription? oed.com/oedv2/00062227

user 85795

@Mitch 2002 If I were to oversleep breakfast at the Black Bear Inn, I would head for a Red Hut Cafe. — Washingon Times (Nexis) 2 November e1

Laurel

@tchrist No

tchrist

oh ok

Robusto

01:30

@tchrist Nope.

user 85795

no

Robusto

Too many dollah for OED subscript.

tchrist

It's still the Victorian version.

Laurel

I need to find someone who would pay for me to have the OED

tchrist

It's around two bits per day.

27⅜ pennies.

user 85795

01:33

typos in dictionaries are hard to find

tchrist

Naw, it's a headword.

user 85795

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Mitch

@Laurel try Upwork

tchrist

@Laurel I am envious of all the little joys like this that you are yet to discover in this life.

Robusto

@alphabet This is interesting. I feel the same way about Japanese, though Japanese at least has phonetics at work there. It still has a long way to go to be "simple and intuitive" as that narrator states, but Chinese by comparison is absolutely opaque.

Mitch

01:37

@Robusto if you ignore the writing, Chinese is relatively straightforward

Laurel

@Mitch I heard Onlyfans is where the money is tho

Robusto

@Mitch But the entire argument in the video is about the writing.

alphabet

I am currently working on a standardized orthography for Raccoon. It's hard to properly describe all the nuanced differences in intonation.

Mitch

@Laurel 😬

Robusto

@alphabet I've seen Raccoon. It just looks like a lot of paw prints to me.

Mitch

01:41

@Robusto my statement stands

Robusto

@Mitch If it stands, it stands apart from the conversation.

Mitch

@Robusto it is singularly central to its irrelevancy

Robusto

OK, EL&U chat is a big tent. We can suffer your individualism.

Mitch

All of us are individuals

tchrist

Dotty.

Robusto

01:55

@tchrist Spelled: Dorothy.

tchrist

@Robusto 🥕

Robusto

I love the way Jack Haley (the Tin Woodsman) pronounces Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz. It's a full three syllables: "Dahr-ah-thy"

Anent our discussion of the pronunciation(s) of irony the other day.

alphabet

02:16

@Robusto Sounds Mid-Atlanticish

Robusto

Yes. The '30s voice coaches for film prized those locutions.

#waffle729 4/5

🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩⭐🟩⭐🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩⭐🟩⭐🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

🔥 streak: 2
wafflegame.net

CowperKettle

jlliagre

02:52

#waffle729 4/5

🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩⭐🟩⭐🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩⭐🟩⭐🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

🔥 streak: 3
wafflegame.net

tchrist

03:19

@Robusto Yes, that's that weird olde-timey pronunciation of /or/ with an open [ɔ] like in THOUGHT, which you and I don't have before /r/. The Brits do that.

DAW-raw-thee.

There are probably some really old people in Atlanta or Boston who still do that, but they likely don't have long for this world.

I can pronounce it with three syllables like "Dora" + "thee", but that still has the normal /o/.

And it's not something that I would normally do for that word. It's just Dorthy to me, like dorky.

Or door key.

Boar key.

Bork 'ee.

Torque key.

forthy is a word.

> Disposed to put oneself forth or forward; forward, outspoken, unrestrained.

But it seems to have retreated to Scotland and the northern dialects of England in recent years.

/ˈfoɹθi/ in our English, /ˈfɔrθɪ/ for the Scots.

Glorious that /r/.

Probably just a single tap not a trill, unless they're particularly pissed. :)

> Higgledy Piggledy, my white hen;
She lays eggs for gentlemen.
You cannot persuade her with a gun or a lariat
To come across for the proletariat.

Dorothy Parker's final couplet responding to the first.

> What really jump-starts “A Wrinkle in Time” is the appearance of three mysterious beings: Mrs Whatsit, Mrs Who and Mrs Which. (L’Engle was adamant that “Mrs” shouldn’t have a period.)

Is it politically required or politically forbidden to insist others pronounce your name the same way you do?

Whatever you say, Mr Tomahto.

Torquemada.

¿Torre quemada?

> Tomás de Torquemada (born 1420, Valladolid, Castile (Spain)—died September 16, 1498, Ávila, Castile) first grand inquisitor in Spain, whose name has become synonymous with the Christian Inquisition’s horror, religious bigotry, and cruel fanaticism.

Bet that one didn't secretly marry Sara Quemada.

> In 1484 he promulgated 28 articles for the guidance of inquisitors, whose competence was extended to include not only crimes of heresy and apostasy but also sorcery, sodomy, polygamy, blasphemy, usury, and other offenses; torture was authorized in order to obtain evidence. These articles were supplemented by others promulgated between 1484 and 1498. The number of burnings at the stake during Torquemada’s tenure has been estimated at about 2,000.

Awful man, awful policy, awful things he did to the entire peninsula, and beyond. We had to study him in college.

I have a pair a great-horned owls, Bubo virginianus, serenading me right now from my trees. They're our eagle-owl, just awesome creatures.

Laurel

04:15

@tchrist For a second there, I thought this first line was a racial slur of some sort lol

@tchrist I wish I had owls

tchrist

I don't know why they always come to my house for their courtship calls.

Laurel

I know why they don't come to my house, probably because my windows overlook a parking lot

I only get squirrels but they don't talk

tchrist

My squirrels talk to my cats a lot.

Laurel

I do not have cats at present

But my parents do and they're black (the cats are)

tchrist

Most of the cool cats were black.

No wait, that was cool scats.

Scat, singing of nonsense words, performance by Ella Fitzgerald and Mel Torme

►

Vikas

04:32

Guess the plant.

Laurel

Vegan's horror?

jlliagre

@Vikas Butter-and-eggs?

Robusto

05:00

@Vikas I've seen this somewhere just recently, like a couple days ago. I thought it was here, posted by @Cowp or someone else, maybe @Mitch. But maybe someone else linked it to me elsewhere. Weird. Eggs fried sunny-side up.

tchrist

@jlliagre I'm surprised you know that. It's a common plant here, and that name for it is certainly more appealing than toadflax is.

I always called it "wild snapdragon" as a child.

> Because this plant grows as a weed, it has acquired a large number of
local colloquial names, including brideweed, bridewort, butter and eggs
(but see Lotus corniculatus), butter haycocks, bread and butter, bunny
haycocks, bunny mouths, calf's snout, Continental weed, dead men's bones,
devil's flax, devil's flower, doggies, dragon bushes, eggs and bacon (but
see Lotus corniculatus), eggs and butter, false flax, flaxweed, fluellen
(but see Kickxia), gallweed, gallwort, impudent lawyer, Jacob's ladder

And this is why we speak Latin. :)

jlliagre

05:14

@Vikas An eggplant, obviously :-)

Robusto

@tchrist I've seen this before. Very fine.

I actually think I saw this on TV when I was a kid as well.

jlliagre

@tchrist I didn't know that name before searching something funny to reply.

Robusto

@tchrist Did I ever tell you I flew from St. Louis to LA sitting next to Mel in 1st class? This was the late '80s, and he had a portable (heh, sort of) video machine in his lap, where he was watching a cut of a TV special he had just done. I was too shy to try to strike up a conversation. When the plane landed I offered to carry his video player, but he said someone was meeting him at the gate (which you could do in those days).

jlliagre

I should really sleep now. I'll have to wake up in less than two hours.

tchrist

@Robusto No, you did not.

Robusto

05:24

That was back when I was in advertising. I regret not being a bit more brazen, because it would have been fun to talk to him. But I didn't want to intrude.

It might have been from NYC to LA, I don't exactly remember, because I had to do production in both places.

tchrist

I once sat next to the actor who played Scotty on Star Trek him I did talk to. Another time a row back from the just-former Canadian PM and him wife. Them I did not.

Robusto

Heh. I hope you didn't ask him to "beam you up" ^_^

tchrist

And yes, these things only happen in first class seating.

Both during the 90s probably. Maybe 80s.

Robusto

That's back when I had to fly a lot. I had enough air miles to go around the world twice in first class. But the last thing I wanted to do was more flying. I gave away the miles to relatives, and even sent my in-laws to Europe in 1st class. My father-in-law groused that he couldn't find anything to eat in Paris (!).

I used the last of those air miles when we moved to Boston, going back and forth between Boston and St. Louis until I was able to move the family out there.

tchrist

I finally ended up letting mine lapse. Did fly my folks around. And Dad to Australia in business class.

I flew across the Atlantic in first class often enough. Pacific only ever business class, but back then it meant something. Like a shared lounge with first class.

CowperKettle

05:56

@Robusto I saw this picture recently on Reddit, in this sub reddit.com/r/aiArt/new

CowperKettle

06:29

Word of the day: purinosome - a (temporary) complex composed of six enzymes that might exist in cells

Enzymes are thought to come together when it's needed, and form a complex that allows purine synthesis to go smoothly

Amazing.

CowperKettle

06:41

> The Eleuthereans brought a statue of Dionysus to Athens, which was initially rejected by the Athenians. Dionysus then punished the Athenians with a plague affecting the male genitalia, which was cured when the Athenians accepted the cult of Dionysus. This was recalled each year by a procession of citizens carrying phalloi.

@tchrist She has a cool scat part in Blue Skies

She pronounces the Russian letter Ы there, I remember that distinctly

Vikas