English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

01:41

@Vikas Hmm by highest rain they mean highest amount of rain?

Xanne

02:12

@Cerberus It’s headline. What else might it mean? Highest on the mountain?

alphabet

02:38

I would expect them to say "rainfall," not "rain."

Cerberus

04:07

@Xanne It just seems so odd.

I would never drop amount in that headline.

Why not most rain?

Or heaviest rain?

I agree with Alphabet that rainfall is easier to fit in.

alphabet

Also, why "24-Hour" instead of "Daily"?

Cerberus

Then it could perhaps mean a sequence of daily rains?

The daily rains were heavier this month than ever.

alphabet

@Robusto It was first popularized as a term in First Amendment law and continues to be used in that context, as I recall.

Xanne

Delhi Heavy Rain: Delhi Records Highest July Rain In 4 Decades

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Actually it’s a legend in a you-tube video. The heaviest rainfall in one 24-hour day in the month of July. A day no doubt has a defined start time. As with newspaper headlines, there would also be a limitation on number of characters for any given font size. And then, there’s a time limit: the newscaster goes on the air at a specific time.

A good exercise for English learners would be headline writing, fitting to space given type size.

Vikas

04:34

@Cerberus Yeah

@Cerberus Heaviest might mean it felt like "strongest" rain ever but still total water fell on ground was still less than any previous rain?

Cerberus

@Vikas Hmm I wouldn't say so: heavy rain just means lots of water.

The fortress was hit by a heavy barrage of cannon fire: this just means lots of cannonballs, not actual weight.

Vikas

05:29

@Cerberus Heaviest sounds better then.

Xanne

07:04

Wordle 751 4/6

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Xanne

07:36

Daily Octordle #532
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Score: 68

Chilling effect: Justice Felix Frankfurter referred to the chilling effect in his concurring opinion in Wieman v. Updegraff (1952), a case involving a loyalty oath imposed on teachers.

Robusto

13:08

@alphabet That still doesn't make it "legalese." Legalese is "The specialized or technical language of the legal profession, especially when considered to be complex or abstruse." My point is that "chilling" and "effect" are common, everyday parlance.

I rest my case.

#Worldle #535 1/6 (100%)
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
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https://worldle.teuteuf.fr

I am no guesser of population.

🌎 Jul 10, 2023 🌍
🔥 25 | Avg. Guesses: 4.43
🟨⬜🟥🟩 = 4

globle-game.com
#globle

Wordle 751 4/6

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Daily Quordle 532
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m-w.com/games/quordle/
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🟨⬜🟨🟨⬜ ⬜⬜⬜🟩⬜
⬜🟨⬜🟨⬜ 🟨⬜🟨⬜🟩
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Mitch

13:26

@Robusto I agree. 'chilling effect' may have originated in comments about legal matters but it is definitely not restricted to them, and its use outside of legal situations does not evoke any associations with law. "The CEOs dismissive attitude to political correctness had a chilling effect in the office".

Robusto

@Mitch You are wise beyond your years, my son.

Mitch

@Robusto You're pretty good looking yourself

Robusto

You have no idea.

j/k

Mitch

My epitaph will be "I look bad? You should see the other guy."

Robusto

Mine will probably be "This isn't how this whole thing was supposed to end."

Mitch

13:32

Last words "Nothing to worry about. I've always gotten better before."

Or: "Either these curtains go or I do"

Robusto

Or: "Watch this, it'll be really funny."

Mitch

Or: "I wonder what would happen if I pressed -this- button."

@Robusto I did laugh out loud a bit at that.

Because it would have been funny.

Robusto

It really would have been.

Or: "Oh yeah? Then why don't you and your friends shove your motorcycles right up your ass."

Mitch

Every time we're on a walk and we come across a big boulder, I have to restrain myself from having them take a picture of me pushing the boulder, and then another picture of me lying down like I've been crushed by the boulder.

"What's so funny?" " Oh... snickers ... nothing."

Robusto

Today's earworm, brought to you by Thin Lizzy: "The Boys Are Back In Town." Really? Where did that come from? I never even listened to Thin Lizzy.

Mitch

13:37

@Robusto It's a constant summer time radio song.

Or you just had a stroke.

I like the radio idea better.

Robusto

@Mitch Freudian psychiatry calls this a "Sysiphus Complex."

Mitch

Epitaph on a psychiatrist's tombstone: "How do you really feel about this?"

Robusto

@Mitch That's not a summertime song. This is a summertime song:

The Jamies - Summertime, Summertime (Audio)

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I rest my case.

Mitch

Another great start of summer song Alice Cooper's "School's Out"

Robusto

@Mitch I actually played that the day I got my Master's degree.

It felt like the thing to do.

Especially the "School's out for ... ever!" line.

Mitch

13:40

@Robusto Counterpoint:

Who - Summertime Blues (live,1969) 0815007

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Robusto

Contrapunctus:

Big Brother & The Holding Company, Janis Joplin - Summertime (Official Audio)

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I'd have played the original Gershwin version, but you didn't play the original "Summertime Blues" either.

Also, the two performances are contemporaneous.

Daily Octordle #532
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Score: 63

Mitch

@Robusto Winter doesn't get much representation:

The Mamas & The Papas - California Dreamin'

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Robusto

@Mitch Sure it does:

The Bangles - Hazy Shade of Winter (Official Video)

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Also: Christmas songs.

I rest my case.

The Craft/Work/Art of Translation

> Much like a crossword, a translation isn’t finished until all the answers are present and correct, with each conditioning the others. But when it comes to literature, there is rarely ever just one solution, and my job is to test as many as possible. A word can be a perfect fit until something I try in the next clause introduces a clumsy repetition or infelicitous echo. Meaning, connotation and subtext all matter, but so does style.

Mitch

Vivaldi Four Seasons: Spring (La Primavera) Full, original. Youssefian & Voices of Music RV 269 4K

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Robusto

@Mitch That's covering all the bases.

MetaEd

13:55

Wordle 751 5/6

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Robusto

More winter:

Sagittarius - My World Fell Down

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Mitch

@Robusto I just did spring.

That part has been so over played, it's like it's not even music, just air you walk through.

Robusto

@Mitch But that's just one of ... The Four Seasons

@Mitch It's actually quite good music, but it has been called upon to represent music to radio, film, and TV. Perhaps overmuch.

Mitch

@Robusto OK fine

Weather Report

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Robusto

@Mitch Wait, I saw that first one.

Mitch

13:59

Now you have another one to see

Neither are worth it.

I thought the raffi song would be ... raffi-esque. BUt it is an actual lesson on the precipitation cycle.

MetaEd

Play the fifth season.

Mitch

Look man I don't listen to Raffi to learn something.

Robusto

You used to.

Or your kids did.

Mitch

I learned that belugas have babies

Robusto

They do?

Mitch

14:01

I mean I'm sure I knew that before but I'm just really aware of it now.

Robusto

I thought they had caviar.

You know: "Roe, roe, roe your boat ..."

Mitch

haha that's a common mistake, the belugas -own- the caviar trade.

Belugas are cruel:

Beluga whale scares kids!!

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Robusto

Not that beluga. This beluga:

Robusto

14:46

> Here, just for reference, is how Google Translate renders the lines in English. I’m often asked if machine translation services or A.I. will put human translators out of a job. It doesn’t keep me up at night.

This is just a brilliant article on translation, and the translator's role.

> Another important charge of the literary translator is preserving ambiguity. Literature can be beautifully precise, but it can also be wonderfully vague, open to interpretation. Sometimes a character says something and all the possible inflections of their voice are meant to sound equally plausible. Ambiguity in this sense allows a work of literature to linger in the mind.

@Mitch: NYT Spelling Bee won't accept porphyry. I bet it's seen often enough in their crosswords, though. Hypocrites.

Vikas

15:33

@Mitch In Bulega's world they would say "humans are cruel" they were scaring us.

Vikas

15:55

Dang it. Ads are getting smarter.

Cerberus

Haha they use random people to bypass captchas on other sites that you can't see?

Vikas

I actually fell into trap when I saw it first time. Clicked it lol

Cerberus

16:11

Ouch.

But, yeah, many people would.

Mitch

17:03

@Robusto link?

@Robusto Yeah, Spelling Bee is entirely automated, their word list and the metrics to choose the letters (to make it easy or hard, just like Sudoku.

But crosswords are made by people, who have 1) more than one dictionary, and 2) GODDAMIT THEY MAKE UP WORDS ALL THE TIME.

Robusto

3 hours ago, by Robusto

The Craft/Work/Art of Translation

Mitch

You're mad that Spelling Bee doesn't use porphyry? I'm mad the NYT crossword uses 'eno' and 'ono'. well, mad that they -keep- using them. Once was enough, not every other game.

@Robusto Oh right.

But translation of literature is (or rather should be) different from translating medical and legal documents.

Robusto

@Mitch How you gonna have a crossword if you can't make up a few 3-letter words?

Mitch

And most of the success of MT (machine translation) is in those fields. But humans (like@CowperKettle) are still necessary (and will be for a long time) even in those presumably technical, low ambiguity ares.

Robusto

@Mitch Well, that's the whole point of the article, in a nutshell.

Mitch

17:12

@Robusto They should have principles. It's the goddam NYT.

I mean the USA Today puzzle shouldn't be making up words because the toddlers who read that rag, their minds would explode.

But the NYT... I'm sure they would be fine with the OED... they have all sorts of words from the 1300's they could use.

@Robusto Oh.

Robusto

@Mitch Think these words as "terms of art" for crosswords.

Mitch

Then you're welcome.

@Robusto more like 'terms of making shit up'

Robusto

I guess they're not "Terms of Endearment" for you.

Mitch

That's the best part of scrabble, making up a word and convincing people it's a word.

But for a published crossword? That's somebody else messing with me and I won't have it.

I am the creator of my reality, not some screwoffs like Will Shortz 'puzzlemaster'

Robusto

@Mitch This Supreme Court may not side with you, though.

Mitch

17:18

@Robusto Supreme court, Schmupreme Court... anybody could just pay them off to create their own reality.

Robusto

@Mitch And frequently do, apparently.

Mitch

@Robusto Oh cripes, I brought reality into the argument. I'm sorry.

Robusto

Shame on you.

You brought shame into this chat.

Talking about reality, sheesh.

Mitch

There's probably not enough shame here

Robusto

What were you thinking?

Mitch

17:20

Sadly I was probably thinking too much

punches self in face

Robusto

@Mitch I get that all the time.

Mitch

misses

Laurel

A word game that allows Middle English would be utter chaos. Do you know how many ways there are to spell "through"?

Mitch

@Laurel Well, there you go that would be a great game called 'Spelling Through'

You just have to spell the word through.

Robusto

@Laurel Do you mean "thorogagh"?

Mitch

17:22

That game would last longer than Wordle

Robusto

(I'm just spitballing here.)

Mitch

Spitballs totally allowed in chat

Robusto

@Mitch Longer than the sun, perhaps.

Mitch

@Laurel To be precise, it would not be all the alternate spellings that OED gives, which combined over all entries would essentially be all sequences of letters. I'm just saying the main entries.

Robusto

Still, there are probably people who do play Scrabble by those rules. But they are the exception. About the same number of people as play 3D chess, I should think.

It seemed like a good idea at the time, but who really wants to think that hard?

Laurel

17:39

@Robusto truth

Cerberus

We only play dirty-words Scrabble.

Only dirty words allowed, but one may be creative.

Laurel

Did I mention that when I was on vacation I picked out a game that I thought would be fun to play with my coworkers who were on the trip only to learn that the answers were all along the lines of phrases like "free the nipple"? And that wasn't even from the "kinky" category (which I learned existed after actually reading about the game)

We were trying to do karaoke but the machine didn't work so we were playing games at the bar

Robusto

Karaoke is an ingenious torture method. Totally Japanese. It tortures both the victim and the audience.

Cerberus

Why would anyone ever be interested in that?

For any reason.

Robusto

Because Japanese.

Cerberus

17:47

Karaoke is like eating plastic. Why?

Robusto

When it comes to torture, humanity is endlessly inventive.

Cerberus

Especially East Asia.

Robusto

Yes. You know the Chinese eat dogs, don't you? Well, I heard they also skin the dogs alive (and laugh while doing it) because they think that makes the meat more delicious.

Cerberus

Don't forget the Japanese bamboo beds.

Robusto

Well, the Japanese are no pikers when it comes to cruelty.

Cerberus

17:56

Pikers?

Robusto

> 2. A person regarded as petty or stingy.

Cerberus

Americanism?

Robusto

I think it comes from "shunpiker"—from people who would go roundabout through the woods to avoid paying for a toll road.

@Cerberus The provenance is unclear.

Cerberus

OK.

Bamboo torture

Bamboo torture is a form of torture and execution where a bamboo shoot grows through the body of a victim. It was reportedly used in East and South Asian countries such as China, India, and especially Japan, but claims of its usage lack reliable evidence. == Recorded usage == A "Madras civilian", in his travel description from 1820s India, referred to this use of bamboo as a well-known punishment in Ceylon. The use of live trees impaling people as they grow was recorded in the 19th century, when the Siamese used nipah palm sprouts in the same way as bamboo torture on the Malays during the 1821...

You no doubt know about this.

Robusto

Yes.

Mitch

18:20

@Robusto There's a word for what I've always wanted to do? Awesome.

@Cerberus Words like 'loam', 'podzol', 'schmutz'?

Cerberus

18:42

@Mitch Not quite!

Mitch

18:58

@Cerberus That's not fair.

In other news, it always seemed like hyperbole (or orthogonally, insulting) when someone retorts a claim with 'that's speculative magical thinking, like end-of-days religious cults'. And it -is- insulting. But I find myself reading a lot of AI-doomerism as being cult-like quasi-religious faith, often based literally on science fiction. Most AI-doomers/apocalypse mongers are surely strong atheists, so it would surely be taken as an insult to tell them they're being religious.

I can't refind the article/tweet where some guy said that as justification of AI-apocalypse we have 70 years of science fiction confirming it.

One very famous thinker on the subject (Max Tegmark) often (ie at least twice) uses the debate tactic of "You claim that there's not going to be an AI-apocalypse. That is an extraordinary claim and it requires extraordinary evidence. The burden on you is to prove that it is not going to happen"

(and 'you' was not me, but someone saying that yes there is a non-zero probability of AI existential risk ("we're all gonna die because of AI") but serious dangers of AI exist that are of non-trivial probability right now.)

That is all.

Well

surely there is a lot more.

but

all for the moment.

user 726941

19:14

I believe the pandemic has brought out the doomers/apocalypse mongers

And now the boomers and wannabes
are jumping on the band wagon.

Xanne

Never let a good crisis go to waste.

user 726941

Exactly 💯

The after glow will live on for generations.

Cerberus

> talk ... also other deriv. vbs. in -k, with a diminutive or frequentative force, as stalk, walk, lurk.

@tchrist Hmm did you know about this diminutive or frequentative suffix? OED.

tchrist

@Cerberus no

Cerberus

Neither did I.

And it seems Dutch tolk "interpreter" is from a different root.

Via Old Russian.

user 726941

19:24

Generations pre-pan and post-pan have now been created.

Mitch

@Cerberus I heard of it first in an article by John McWhorter.

it has a very Dutch feel to me.

Cerberus

Talk or tolk?

Tolk doesn't sound super Dutch to me.

Mitch

@Xanne I read that as 'never let good crisps go to waste'

Cerberus

@Mitch I'll respond to this later.

Mitch

@Cerberus 'talk' (and those others) once it is pointed out that the k is possibly a diminutive suffix.

Cerberus

19:29

It rather sound Scandinavian to me!

Mitch

The Scandinavians probably think it is some Russian thing

user 726941

@Cerberus Is Hamlet required reading in highschool in Denmark?

Mitch

> talk (v.) c. 1200, talken, probably a diminutive or frequentative form related to Middle English tale "story," and ultimately from the same source as tale (q.v.), with rare English formative -k (compare hark from hear, stalk from steal, smirk from smile) and replacing that word as a verb. East Frisian has talken "to talk, chatter, whisper." Related: Talked; talking.

etymonline: talk

Mitch