English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

alphabet

01:21

The comments on this post may get moved to chat, but apparently some people are very surprised by how I pronounce "thank you." I say it more like the first of these two versions.

CowperKettle

Reading for pleasure early in childhood linked to better cognitive performance and mental well-being in adolescence

alphabet

Unpopular opinion: if you don't tense /æ/ before all nasals, you're either British or pretend-British.

Laurel

01:41

@alphabet Pretty sure my pronunciation is closer to the first one too. The second one sounds slightly ridiculous to me for some reason

alphabet

@Laurel To me the second version sounds British, though some AmE accents have it also.

(British English doesn't have /æ/-tensing, it's mostly just the US and Canada.)

CowperKettle

I don't even know what that means, "tense /æ/ before nasals"

Laurel

@alphabet Lol look at the description of the file. The second pronunciation was basically produced under duress

alphabet

@CowperKettle British English and American English pronounce words like "camp" differently. Here's an audio version with the more American version first and the more British version second. That said, this varies a lot between dialects.

As I recall, some native Russian speakers can have trouble distinguishing English /æ/ from /ɛ/, so the difference may be less obvious.

Laurel

I wish that I was better at phonetics

alphabet

01:51

You can listen to how a bunch of accents pronounce "hand" here; tchrist mentioned this last time the topic came up

2

Laurel

Yeah I think I found that site before he even showed it to me (and got some sweet meta rep from it too)

But I find it hard to hear meaningful differences between many of the pronunciations

Like there are several from the NE USA and they all sound similar enough. I'm not sure which I'm closer to, or maybe I just rotate between a couple of them

I should probably also finally nail down IPA too lol. The vowels are hard to remember and I have no idea what all the diacritics are that they put in brackets

alphabet

@Laurel Interesting fact: one of the most common pronunciations of /r/ in American English (the "bunched" or "molar" R) doesn't have an official IPA symbol.

You have to use the "extended IPA" symbol /ɹ̈/

Vikas

04:10

@Mitch See, you're serious now.

@Cerberus Would China agree with that?

I see Mirch asked same question.

Mitch*

Sorry Mitch. My typo above means you're chilli in Hindi.

Cerberus

04:35

@Vikas Agree? What do you mean?

China will not agree, but it will be forced to choose.

Vikas

06:34

@Cerberus Cancelling all kinds of trade with Russia.

Xanne

07:24

Wordle 739 5/6

🟨⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜🟩⬜⬜🟩
🟨🟩🟩⬜⬜
⬜🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

I should have done better

Xanne

07:36

All my immigrant Uber drivers in s California speak adequate English except one from Armenia, who says “Bad English, Good Driver” and won’t talk

M.A.R.

@Xanne sounds like my kind of driver

Xanne

Russia situation is uncertain, not shaking out.

jlliagre

Wordle 739 5/6

⬜⬜⬜⬜🟩
⬜🟩⬜🟨⬜
⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜
🟨🟩🟩⬜🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
So should I.

Xanne

@M.A.R. i liking hearing their immigration stories .

One from Tajikistan speaks Tajik ( which he says is like Persian), Uzbec, Russian, Turkish, Russian, Mandarin (from two years in Taiwan), and now English, and is getting a degree in cybersecurity at San Jose State.

i am doing archival research at a NARA library this week , sort of a monklike enterprise.

M.A.R.

08:02

7

A: How is the term Fascism used in current political context?

The term is used both politically and descriptively. When it is used politically, it is done to stigmatize someone. Effectively, it's an insult that people believe to be appropriate. A good comparison would be the word "pedophile." It is also a word which can be used descriptively and which ca...

M.A.R.

08:13

@Xanne sounds like the coolest most fun boring job ever and I'm kinda jealous

M.A.R.

10:29

Tajik is probably 70% intelligible to a Persian speaker. Maybe more.

Pet Linux

What is "/cc" means?

M.A.R.

11:03

@PetLinux it's programmers emulating sending emails in their chat responses. In emails, when you cc someone, you also want them to see the conversation you're having with another person. In chat, it means you're pinging a third person to read the conversation

Pet Linux

@M.A.R. ok, thank you

jlliagre

@PetLinux And in emails, it was emulating copying paper based mails using carbon copy.

Carbon copy

Before the development of photographic copiers, a carbon copy was the under-copy of a typed or written document placed over carbon paper and the under-copy sheet itself (not to be confused with the carbon print family of photographic reproduction processes). When copies of business letters were so produced, it was customary to use the acronym "CC" or "cc" before a colon and below the writer's signature to inform the principal recipient that carbon copies had been made and distributed to the parties listed after the colon. With the advent of word processors and e-mail, "cc" is used as a merely formal...

Pet Linux

@jlliagre thank you also

M.A.R.

@jlliagre gosh, filthiest thing in a bank. Besides money of course

I hate them with a passion

Vikas

12:08

@jlliagre I loved it.

Whenever I would find it somewhere, it would be like I haven't eaten for days and I got something to eat :P

Mitch

12:25

@Vikas OK Yes Sometimes I'm serious.

Michael Rybkin

Could you please tell me if this sounds fine to you as native speakers:

This reaction is called reduction. The electrons used in the copper to form the molecules of hydrogen are transferred from the zinc through an external wire connecting between the copper and the zinc. The hydrogen molecules formed on the surface of the copper by the reduction reaction ultimately bubble away as hydrogen gas.

Mitch

@MichaelRybkin Sounds great except just say 'connecting the copper and zinc'.

You don't need to add 'between'.

@Vikas Of all the mispronunciations of ones name one could have, that is not bad at all.

There's much worse.

@Xanne I had a judge from Turkey who was caught in the legal system purge there a few years ago. It was like having a brain surgeon mowing your lawn for less than minimum wage.

@Xanne what subject takes you there!

Michael Rybkin

12:49

@Mitch Thank you.

Robusto

#Worldle #523 1/6 (100%)
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
⭐⭐🏙️🪙
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr

🌎 Jun 28, 2023 🌍
🔥 13 | Avg. Guesses: 4.47
⬜⬜🟧🟥🟩 = 5

globle-game.com
#globle

Wordle 739 4/6

🟨⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛🟨⬛🟨⬛
🟨⬛🟩🟨🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Mitch

13:06

> someone tried to get me selling AIs trained on Hamilton

it was an LMM LLM MLM

Legend:
Lin-Manuel Miranda
Large Language Model
Multi-Level Marketing

That last one took me a bit.

Robusto

Daily Octordle #520
🕛7️⃣
🔟6️⃣
🟥8️⃣
🕐5️⃣
Score: 75

My Quordle was even worse. I'm not going to share it.

@Mitch I thought you were putting up Latin numerals.

M.A.R.

@Mitch what did he taste like?

Mitch

@M.A.R. snort

@Robusto TIL, or rather last night, that 'M' for a thousand wasn't used until the Middle Ages and in Ancient Rome they used something like (I). Is that right @Cerberus?

I also learned that Ancient Rome was -after- the Late Kingdom if Egypt (OK a little overlap).

I also learned that Modern Persian/Farsi began around later Old English.

Also New College at Oxford, founded in 1379, was the 9th one to be established out of 39.

M.A.R.

13:34

Bananas are a good source of potassium

Mitch

I learned that a while ago.

jlliagre

Daily Octordle #520
9️⃣🕛
3️⃣6️⃣
🟥4️⃣
🔟🕐
Score: 71

Daily Quordle 520
4️⃣5️⃣
6️⃣8️⃣
m-w.com/games/quordle/

user 858770

13:49

Score: —√π/√∞

🧐

9️⃣6️⃣

6️⃣9️⃣

M.A.R.

@user858770 take your fancy magic someplace else

2

Mitch

16:06

Grambank is the successor to WALS

WALS is the inventory of world languages and their properties (phonology, morphosyntax, semantics, lexicon) that maps the locations of the language and yes/no (or categories of) properties.

So you're wondering if there's a Sprachbund (very different languages in the same area with similar properties), or you wonder if there's a language that has indefinite articles but no definite article, you could look that up on WALS.

Grambank is the same people and similar interface but new bigger data set, more languages, more properties.

Vikas

16:41

@M.A.R. oKay

Cerberus

@Mitch I know both forms existed in history, but I actually don't know when the (now) lesser known form was used!

The Romans didn't need thousands in their inscriptions...

This would be an excellent question for latin.stackexchange.com ?

I can't easily find such a question there.

@Vikas China will be forced to end trade with Russia, a small economy that China doesn't really need, or to end trade with the West, by far the world's largest block, which China absolutely needs. If China tries to smuggle, the West will cut it off completely. So I think China will choose what is best for itself, possibly under protest, although China will also be very much shocked and angry at Russia if it should throw around atoms except when needed to preserve itself.

@M.A.R. Hey, by the way, can you read Arabic from, say, Egypt easily?

jlliagre

16:58

@Mitch ↀ

Mitch

@Cerberus It was on an episode of QI

I'm searching for that but not very successfully

@CowperKettle I'm currently watching this. Melanie Mitchell is channeling most of my opinions (also Yan LeCun). Bengio I like as a researcher and his demeanor but I don't understand his opinions. Tegmark is making all sorts of huge argumentative fallacies, the biggest one is jumping to conclusions.

Cerberus

> Pro-Russian channel Rybar claims that large-scale purges are ongoing in the ranks of the #Russian army, with officers being targeted for their "indecisiveness" in suppressing the mutiny.

As always with Rybar, this is not an official source, so I would consider this unconfirmed.

Mitch

@Cerberus Yeah, I'll do that.

Cerberus

@Mitch Tibi plaudo!

Mitch

17:15

@Cerberus Bless you!

Cerberus

That's what I meant.

Mitch

What?

I was responding to your sneeze.

Cerberus

achoo

How can you respond to the future?? Are you an alien wizard?

Vikas

> Observers say Yevgeny Prigozhin is ‘doomed’ after turning on Russian President Vladimir Putin, known for vindictiveness towards turncoat allies.

Cerberus

That was also what I expected as soon as I read about the march on Moscow.

Mitch

17:36

@Cerberus 1) 'Tibi plaudo', if you don't know what it means (which you can say for almost any couple words in a foreign language) sounds like a sneeze.

Whenever someone says something in Malayalam, I respond with 'Gesundheit' as though they had sneezed.

@Cerberus As to responding to the future and alien wizard, I'll just say that I am no wizard.

Cerberus

@Mitch I know you do.

But I know you can make out what tibi plaudo must mean.

Robusto

18:54

@Mitch You may be confusing the "New Kingdom" with the "Late Period" Egypt. The New Kingdom was long gone by the time anything like Rome came along.

Well, perhaps there was a bit of overlap. But there was no "Late Kingdom" by that name.

@tchrist: Those Canadian wildfires do make the rounds. ^

Mitch

19:39

@Cerberus Oh, I knew.

Cerberus

@Mitch I knew you knew.

@Robusto Wow, concentrations so high in Morocco even.

Mitch

@Robusto I am surely mixing up the two. It still sounds good.

@Cerberus I didn't know that.

Cerberus

Now you do.

Mitch

@Robusto The New Kingdom was totally before Rome was 'founded' in 777, so it's a little better.

But 'last' sort of stuck in my head.

@Cerberus For the moment. We well could have had exactly this kind of conversation before, and if I forgot it then, I may also forget it until next time.

I think this is the first time I've mentioned Mayalayam.

But in other news...

The History of Ukrainian Borshch

►

Robusto

@Mitch By "last" I presume you mean "late"? That's what you wrote earlier.

Mitch

19:47

@Robusto Oh cripes.

sure. something that starts with 'l'

Robusto

As my momma taught me, words either mean something or they don't.

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh, I think the letters are to the right of their corresponding bar, not above.

Mitch

late and last are cognate aren't they?

last = late-est?

@Robusto The truth lies somewhere between the two.

Robusto

@Mitch Huh, the truth "lies" now?

Whom should we believe then?

Cerberus

The Cretan.

I think.

Mitch

19:51

@Cerberus He's more reliable than the guy that says "You can trust me"

Cerberus

Epimenides paradox

The Epimenides paradox reveals a problem with self-reference in logic. It is named after the Cretan philosopher Epimenides of Knossos (alive circa 600 BC) who is credited with the original statement. A typical description of the problem is given in the book Gödel, Escher, Bach, by Douglas Hofstadter: Epimenides was a Cretan who made the immortal statement: "All Cretans are liars." A paradox of self-reference arises when one considers whether it is possible for Epimenides to have spoken the truth. == Mythology of lying Cretans == According to Ptolemaeus Chennus, Thetis and Medea had once argued...

> Wagner’s Prigozhin Planned to Capture Russian Military Leaders

Western intelligence officials say Russian domestic intelligence agency learned of plot in advance

Mitch

@Cerberus THe New Kingdom doesn't overlap with the start of Rome.

Cerberus

(Wall Street Journal.)

Mitch

What do you call the first part of Rome? Those were all kings, right?

Cerberus

@Mitch Exactly.

@Mitch Yes, kings.

Mitch

19:53

Do you call that period 'The Roman Kingdom'?

Cerberus

Until Tarquinius Superbus was deposed and the republic began.

@Mitch I'm not sure whether we have a name for that period, but it would be suitable.

Roman Kingdom

The Roman Kingdom, also referred to as the Roman monarchy or the regal period of ancient Rome, was the earliest period of Roman history when the city and its territory were ruled by kings. According to tradition, the Roman Kingdom began with the city's founding c. 753 BC, with settlements around the Palatine Hill along the river Tiber in central Italy, and ended with the overthrow of the kings and the establishment of the Republic c. 509 BC. Little is certain about the kingdom's history as no records and few inscriptions from the time of the kings survive. The accounts of this period written during...

Mitch

@Cerberus Having a 'republic'... that was pretty ... new, wasn't it? Like the Romans were mostly running around the woods like madmen (similar to the German and Celtic tribes) in comparison to the Etruscans, even though they had kings.

Cerberus

In a way, there were semi-Etruscans.

Mitch

I mean it feels like a 'republic' is some extra measure of civilization that they didn't have before (maybe I'm just believing the propaganda from the French Revolution)

@Cerberus the poor cousins?

Cerberus

@Mitch Actually, more primitive Germans also often had elected leaders.

@Mitch I think at first Rome was more like a city on the border of the Etruscan lands, with Italics ans Etruscans in it.

Robusto

20:00

The Norse had a kind of primus inter pares thing going, but the "king" turned out to be the one who would win battles and share the loot. Which is why "ring giver" was such a high title.

Cerberus

Some Etruscan dynasties of kings, too.

Mitch

@Cerberus yeah Tarquinius I think

Cerberus

Yes.

Mitch

Anyway, the Romans didn't have borscht. I think that explains a lot.

Vikas

20:31

Putin is losing war in Iraq: Biden

Mitch

20:45

2

Q: What was the symbol used for 'one thousand' in Ancient Rome?

I saw an episode of QI (Quite Interesting, a British 'quiz' show that just sort of presents trivia). I don't know the episode or when it was produced (I've searched for it on youtube but haven't found it yet). On this episode one of the questions was "What symbol did the Ancient Romans use for 'o...

Cerberus

@Mitch Excellent!

Everyone loves you at Latin.

Karo

21:04

god does not exist for me

also @tchrist how does it feel to tell lies?

Cerberus

@Karo What is this about?

Are you serious?

Karo

The error you are experiencing is a result of a mismatch between the model's anticipated input shape and the shape of the data you are providing for prediction.

According to the error message, the model appears to be expecting an input shape of (None, 127) (or (None, 127, None)), but you are really supplying an input with the shape (None, 0).

You can attempt the following methods to fix this issue:

Make sure the model (parnavaz-000) you're loading is the right one and works with the code you're using.

tchrist

@Karo You went 15 months without posting a single answer, and then suddenly in the space of less than a day you posted ~~eleven~~ a dozen of them, and at length, several containing structures and turns of phrase often emitted by AI generators that were trained on Stack Overflow answers as their training data. It's natural to question that explosion.

Karo

I had to take a break because of a family members death, also

ibb.co/87Q83w0

tchrist

I'm sorry to hear that.

Karo

21:11

Yes, its life, it broke me down really

tchrist

It does.

"The error/issue/problem you are experiencing/encountering" is ChatGPT's favorite way to start an SO answer.

Karo

I have autism, I usually talk that way

No joke

I am in the Autism spectrum

tchrist

Another frequent tell is the "it seems" bit. However, your answers were less mealy-mouthed than most ChatGPT answers. They lack the normal pablum at the end.

Cerberus

@Karo But couldn't you have written answers without using Chat GPT?

Karo

what does pablum mean?

tchrist

21:14

Jun 24 at 16:25, by tchrist

I'm a programmer, not a google.

I meant bland general statements that don't really help anything.

It loves to do that.

Karo

Ah, you mean like „in summary“ „Here take this outdated code from 1953“ sorta stuff

tchrist

Yes.

> Ultimately, if all else fails, it might be worth it to simplify your Blueprint and remove any extraneous functionality to isolate the problem. Once you're sure that the actors are detecting each other properly, you can gradually add more advanced features until everything is working as intended.

Karo

I will remember that.Yeah nah, tbf I once tried

oh i didnt finish

tchrist

> Also, it is important to note that this setup can introduce additional latency and I/O overhead, as logs are being written to disk and then ingested by the log aggregation system. This can impact the performance of your Spark jobs, so it is recommended to carefully monitor your system and adjust your configuration as necessary to balance between logging requirements and performance.

Karo

I once tried if GPT can help with code problems, dont try it

tchrist

21:18

> However, it's important to note that allowing all tags and attributes without proper sanitization can introduce security risks such as cross-site scripting (XSS) vulnerabilities. Therefore, it's generally recommended to only allow necessary and safe tags and attributes based on your specific use case.

Be cautious when allowing user-generated HTML content and consider implementing additional security measures, such as input validation and output encoding, to prevent potential security vulnerabilities.

@Karo You mean you tried it, and it didn't give good solutions?

Cerberus

Sounds very...generic?

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes. ColleenV's answer on ELU.meta characterizes it well.

Karo

I once tried it, yes it either just copy pasted my code, make it worse or just added something that made CPU go BRRRRR

made it worse*

tchrist

> Isn't it obvious? It's vague, overly verbose and too formal for the context. It reads like a grade school essay instead of an answer by someone who has actual expertise. If you want to take an AI generated answer and make it pass for human-written, you need to have a human who understands the topic write most of it. [link]

[It's not about] the level of writing, [what's relevant is] the structure. It also somewhat resembles a beauty pageant interview answer... Restate the question, yammer on vaguely to try to answer the question in the most generic inoffensive way possible while trying to…

Actually, those were comments; Andrew cited them in his answer.

@Karo I'm sorry that I gave you a hard time; life is hard enough without other people thinking you're doing something you aren't. I'll remove my comments.

Karo

It is fine, we talked about it and came to an agreement, I really appreciate your kindness

tchrist

21:22

> Please note that the "JFXtras Rating" library may have specific licensing terms and requirements. Make sure to review the license and comply with its terms when using the library in your project.

Those are those "in summary" bits at the end, for SO.

The one on ELU ended this way:

> These alternatives capture the various ways of expressing the process of working with integrals in English. It's always recommended to use the terminology that is most commonly understood and accepted within the specific context or community you are communicating with.

Well, one of them. We've add a handful. SO has maybe 100-300 per day.

It has a dry, academic way of talking, full of passives like "it is recommended", unless you craft a custom prompt telling it to lighten up. SO has one repeat ChatGPT plagiarist who has been posting answers written in the style of Crocodile Dundee.

The one you deleted is the only one that really set my internal alarm bells off.

alphabet

@tchrist Sorry, is this about answers on ELU or SO?

tchrist

@alphabet SO.

I told somebody his post looked AI generated. It made him unhappy, so he came here to tell me I was wrong.

Karo

if you don‘t mind me asking.. what is SO?

tchrist

Stack Overflow.

Karo

Ohhh, yeah makes sense

tchrist

21:31

I have removed any comments or flags I placed on your posts, whether deleted or otherwise.

Try to enjoy life.

Karo

you too

tchrist

@Karo Did you choose your user name because it has some real-world connection to you, or are you being punny?

Or both?

As I'm sure you know, Karo is a brand of sugar syrup. But caro also means "dear" or "precious" in Romance languages.

It's cher in French, because they had strange sound changes.

carus

Noun: carus

(medicine) coma with complete insensibility; deep lethargy

Adjective: cārus (feminine cāra, neuter cārum, comparative cārior, superlative cārissimus); first/second-declension adjective

dear, beloved
costly, expensive, valued
Synonyms: pretiōsus, dīves, impēnsus, antīquus
Antonym: vīlis

That's as an adjective. As a noun, caro means flesh.

An heard in Omnis caro ad te veniet from the Vulgate Psalms.

Karo

It is karo as the german word for ♦️

+ im a bavarian (flag of bavaria is white and blue diamonds)

Cerberus

> De Russische generaal Sergej Vladimirovitsj Soerovikin zou zijn gearresteerd, meldt The Moscow Times woensdag.

jlliagre

21:47

@Karo From the French carreau.

Karo

well that is dutch as far as I know

jlliagre

Cognates with carré (square).

Karo

Yeah ik ik everything in english is either german, latin or french

tchrist

@Karo In my youth I spent a fair amount of time in Minga and its surrounding area.

@jlliagre David John Moore Cornwell was no square! :)

@Karo Every now and then we pinch something from the Norse.

Cerberus

That is at least one good thing to come from Prigozhin's attempted coup d'état.

jlliagre

21:59

@tchrist He chose his pseudonym because spies weren't allowed by the Foreign Office to publish books under their real names. Makes sense :-)

jlliagre

22:09

Kartenspiele expression of the day: Karo ist Trumpf.

tchrist

22:26

gosh

jlliagre

La palabra del día #538 4/6

⬜🟨⬜⬜🟩
⬜⬜🟨🟩🟩
🟨⬜⬜🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

https://lapalabradeldia.com/

Trumpf is eventually Romance too (Triomphe/Triumphus).

M.A.R.

23:30

@Cerberus Easily? Probably not. But I'd know what it's generally about and understand a sentence here and there. I don't even know how much Arabic dialects differ. Egypt, SA (and friends) and Iraq should be easy enough. What's spoken in central and northern Africa would be too difficult though I reckon

From what I gather, my situation with Arabic mirrors people over there that are horribly taught, say, German at school. If you ask someone who's studied German as a foreign language at school in that horrible "name all the grammar rules" way with little interaction with real Germans and German, they'd say roughly the same thing: That they can read German and understand what some passage is about, but not without difficulty, and that they can't speak it well.

Cerberus

23:51

@M.A.R. Hah nice comparison.

@M.A.R. It's interesting that northern Africa should be so different from Egypt and the Near East.

I am looking for someone who can read Arab and who is good at Googling, for a delicate mission.

Robusto

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…