English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

12:05 AM

> The screengrab came from a website called Daily News Reported, which describes itself as "a fabricated satirical newspaper and comedy website."

Laurel

1:06 AM

@Araucaria-Nothereanymore. We haven't talked about it. In fact that conversation has only really begun in one of my mod rooms and didn't get very far.

I'm going to have lots of exhausting overtime this week but also signing onto the strike looks like it would be putting a target on my back and that's scary

Cerberus

@Laurel Hmm what do you think will happen?

alphabet

1:28 AM

@Araucaria-Nothereanymore. There's been some conversation about it further up in the chat.

Laurel

@Cerberus How they handled things in 2019 didn't leave a good feeling, to start with. And SE has been spending the last few days eroding trust again with how they handled all this. But more specifically I'm talking about comments from SE that made me think that the mods who signed onto the strike better scrutinize the TL and watch their behavior otherwise something will happen to them.

Cerberus

@Laurel Ah OK, like what they did to Monica?

Laurel

I wouldn't rule it out

Cerberus

I suppose not.

Although this subject is less hysterical.

And the conversation in the lounge seemed actually polite and restrained.

Laurel

I'm a person who's very easily stressed and my life outside SE isn't helping (e.g. refer back to the overtime; I've been doing so much of that for the last two weeks too). I'm just very stressed out about things

alphabet

1:32 AM

Wordle 716 2/6

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That was lucky

Laurel

I wasn't a mod during the Monica thing and I didn't check out the deep dark mod archives from that time because I thought it would be depressing

As for this whole thing now, it just feels so unnecessary. Like SE could have approached it completely different, not made enemies of everyone, and we wouldn't be here talking like this

Cerberus

@Laurel Quite understandable.

tchrist

Don’t you mean when did it become common knowledge that birds are NOT the descendants of dinosaurs? People used to think they were so, and this was the mistake that occasioned the invention of the term you reference. It depends when you started reading Robert Bakker's explorations of dinosaur endothermy starting in 1968. Most of the dinosaurs — both the avian ones and the non-avians ones — went extinct at the K-Pg boundary. Most dinobirds died then and only one tiny branch of them survived: the little, ground-not-tree-dwelling but flighted toothless ones with beaks for cracking open seeds. — tchrist ♦ 11 mins ago

Cerberus

@Laurel You were wise not to.

@Laurel Yes. Like last time.

alphabet

@tchrist Doesn't your example show that they are the descendants of dinosaurs? Or rather that they are dinosaurs themselves, descended from other, non-avian ones.

Cerberus

1:36 AM

@tchrist Well, does that make then "not the descendents of dinosaurs" unaequivocally?

tchrist

@alphabet No, birds are a single branch of the avian dinosaurs.

alphabet

@tchrist Which means that they are descended from other avian dinosaurs, which are in turn descended from non-avian dinosaurs.

tchrist

"Avian" has specific technical anatomical senses here that may not align with your idea of what a bird "is".

alphabet

@tchrist Regardless, one could say: there are birds, there are non-avian dinosaurs, and there are non-bird avian dinosaurs.

tchrist

@alphabet No, there is no "birds descended from avian dinosaurs". Birds ARE avian dinosaurs. There were quite a lot of them at one time, for a very long time. Only one branch survived.

"Avian dinosaurs" is a way of talking about the dinosaurs which are birds.

alphabet

1:40 AM

@tchrist Humans are mammals. Humans are also descended from (other) mammals.

Likewise, birds both are, and are descended from, avian dinosaurs.

tchrist

@alphabet Down that road lies the madness that comes of saying that humans descended from great apes. No, that is not right: humans ARE great apes.

It is the same with birds vs the other dinosaurs.

alphabet

@tchrist Those statements aren't mutually exclusive. One can say that humans are great apes and that they are descended from great apes.

Laurel

Humans are mediocre apes :/

tchrist

@alphabet Only because the apple falls not far from the tree.

Cerberus

But "humans are descended from mammals" sounds odd, does it not?

tchrist

1:43 AM

@Cerberus Yes, it does not sound right. It says we're no longer mammals.

Cerberus

Suggests.

So that is a fair point.

tchrist

I'm descended from immigrants.

alphabet

I am an American. I am also descended from Americans. No?

Cerberus

The only difference is that all other dinosaurs are extinct.

tchrist

@alphabet Oh I don't know, are your parents Americans?

alphabet

1:44 AM

@tchrist Yes (well, for a couple generations).

Not ultimately. Ultimately we're all descended from Africans. But only some of us are (and are descended from) Africans.

Cerberus

So the statement in question is perhaps more similar to this: humans are descended from pleocenic(?) mammals.

No, not quite, because pleocenic excludes humans.

Whereas "dinosaurs" does not quite exclude birds.

alphabet

To avoid misleading implications, one could say "birds are descended from non-avian dinosaurs," just like "humans are descended from non-hominid mammals."

But "birds are descended from dinosaurs" is, I contend, also a true statement, just like "humans are descended from mammals."

Laurel

Hmmm, maybe the issue with "humans are descended from mammals" is that it's not much more useful to say than "humans are descended from humans", like a tautology almost

tchrist

@alphabet That does not mean that it is not misleading to the point of being deceptive. Telling the complete truth in a way that leads the listener to misunderstand and believe something which is not so is still naughty.

Are nautiluses descended from cephalopods like squid and octopus?

That depends on whether I've been careful with my commas. Not a good recipe for knowledge transfer.

alphabet

Eh, I find it at most slightly misleading. But I wouldn't deny it and say that birds are not descended from dinosaurs.

tchrist

1:51 AM

Well they aren't.

They're just a kind of dinosaur.

alphabet

Even if you think "birds are descended from dinosaurs" has misleading implications, it isn't (I contend) false, so one should not respond by insisting that "birds are not descended from dinosaurs."

It seems odd to assert "humans are not descended from mammals." Sure, "humans are descended from mammals" may mislead the listener, but it isn't a false statement.

tchrist

Birds are a kind of dinosaur unlike, say, pteranodons or dimetrodons or plesiosaurs, or even basilosaurus. :)

Laurel

Aw, look at this: insider.com/birds-that-look-like-dinosaurs-2019-2

I just felt the need to see pictures of birds

Can't believe that they put Canada Goose on the list

What a menace

tchrist

The popular press has never been careful.

alphabet

Do T Rex's also taste like chicken? Does that mean that dinosaur-shaped chicken nuggets are also dinosaur-flavored?

Laurel

1:55 AM

Asking the important questions

tchrist

When's the last time you ate a non-dinosaur archosaur?

alphabet

I just realized: chicken nuggets are made of dinosaurs. Humans are truly the apex predator.

Cerberus

Oh, ages ago.

tchrist

Only the last time you ate a crocodilian, not the last time you ate a bird.

Cerberus

Or perhaps I should say, eras.

Birds are dinosaurs-survivors.

tchrist

1:57 AM

Eras?

Eras quod sum?

alphabet

Teach your kids that McNuggets are made of dinosaur meat

tchrist

Doesn't everybody??

I'm serious. Among my family and friends, it is thus.

You'll have to eat gators to avoid eating dinosaurs. Sorry, Charlie.

Cerberus

Hmm it seems aera is actually plural.

tchrist

like aevum is singular?

Cerberus

Perhaps from bronze counters.

tchrist

1:59 AM

That rings a distant bell.

Cerberus

My belfry is empty.

tchrist

Trying to remember. It's from Wolfe.

Wolfe uses an aes to mean a copper coin in the Book of the New Sun. That's what it was.

tchrist

2:55 AM

Banishing casuistry, clarity emerges. The fossil record shows that birds are feathered dinosaurs. Nearly all palaeontologists regard birds as coelurosaurian theropod dinosaurs. primitive birds, particularly the Enantiornithes, ... became extinct due to the K–T extinction event. All but a few groups of the toothless Neornithes were also cut short.

Laurel

Wait, hold up, does saying "birds are feathered dinosaurs" mean that dinosaurs weren't feathered?

Have we actually made any progress here???

Cerberus

No doubt you know that many dinosaurs had feathers?

Laurel

I only know that they grew feathers sometime between now and when I was reading dino picture books as a child :p

OH I FOUND THE BOOK

The book I'm remembering

For some reason I thought this would be harder to find or maybe I'm just good at Google

CowperKettle

3:15 AM

@Cerberus Oh!

Cerberus

@Laurel Those illustrations are probably outdated, though.

CowperKettle

> I can't believe Donald Trump is still claiming he won in 2020.
Who would have believed a man in his 70s could maintain an election for so long?

Cerberus

It is believed that many dinosaurs had feathers.

CowperKettle

The Russian forces have reportedly blew up the Nova Kakhovka Dam

There are videos of inundation.

But the news is not confirmed by good sources.

alphabet

@CowperKettle Some Western analysts claim Ukraine may have done it to allow an amphibious assault across the Dnipro. Seems unlikely given the number of civilians potentially killed in the resulting flood.

Laurel

3:20 AM

@Cerberus None of them had feathers in this book and I think that they still had long-necks as two different types of dino (can't remember what they were called). In the same vein does anyone here remember The Land Before Time?

CowperKettle

Yes, I'll wait until the BBC covers it. Too much fake news.

alphabet

Wait, nvm, it seems like those Western sources were just quoting Russian ones

Cerberus

@Laurel Ah, cute, I actually saw an episode of that on Youtube recently.

CowperKettle

"The Land Before Time"? No.

Laurel

I had some VHS's when I was young (which are at my parents' to this very day) and I watched them enough that I still remember the plots of the few I had. A friend told me that they still thought it was a solid franchise, tho I haven't watched them in years and I'm afraid to see if they would hold up

CowperKettle

3:28 AM

Dinosaurs (TV series)

Dinosaurs is an American family sitcom television series that aired on ABC for four seasons from April 26, 1991, through July 20, 1994 (preempted episodes that had never been allowed to run also aired as a second part of the fourth season from September 6, 1995 through November 10, 1995), and repeats were shown on Disney Channel. The show, about a family of anthropomorphic dinosaurs, was produced by Michael Jacobs Productions and Jim Henson Television in association with Walt Disney Television and distributed by Buena Vista International, Inc. The characters were designed by Henson team member...

I remember this.

Семья динозавров - Ты не мама!

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Laurel

@CowperKettle That's a series before my time (heh)

CowperKettle

:0)

Laurel

Wow, the first Land Before Time had both Steven Spielberg and George Lucas as executive directors

alphabet

Anyway Russian media is supposedly putting out the message "everything is fine, we already won," which means the situation is truly dire

Cerberus

3:50 AM

@Laurel It didn't appear to me.

A bit like an American high school but with dinosaurs.

Little humour, no subtlety.

Laurel

A few years back I re-watched a movie I had a lot of nostalgia for from my childhood, and realized it was actually really bad. Like there were still some good parts but I'm trying to forget watching it all the way through again

CowperKettle

> Study on Danish population found that living in dense inner-city areas did not carry the highest depression risks, rather the highest risk was among sprawling suburbs, and the lowest was among multistory buildings with open space in the vicinity. science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adf3760

CowperKettle

7:02 AM

Etymology of the day: psychedelic -- irregularly[31] derived from the Greek words ψυχή psychḗ 'soul, mind' and δηλείν dēleín 'to manifest', with the intended meaning "mind manifesting," the implication being that psychedelics can reveal unused potentials of the human mind.

δηλόω

Verb: δηλόω • (dēlóō)

(transitive) To show, to make apparent or known, clear
Synonym: δείκνυμῐ (deíknumi)

CowperKettle

8:26 AM

I don't know how to make sure that my cat is urinating.

I cannot track him the whole day.

He had urinary blockage, and I'm afraid that he might relapse.

Mitch

12:30 PM

@alphabet I assert that your assertion is misleading and that birds -are- dinosaurs, just like humans -are- mammals.

What I find hard to accept is that birds are -not- descended from the ornithischian dinosaurs, that is the -bitd-hipped.

That's just wrong

Robusto

@Mitch Oh yeah? Were you there when all this descending took place?

Mitch

@Robusto I'm so sorry

Robusto

Those of us who were there have a different tale to tell.

Mitch

So you just looked on while the crime was committed?

Robusto

We watched as the first bird models were molded out of plastic and set on the windowsills of children.

Mitch

12:37 PM

That sounds like a beautiful moment

Robusto

It was.

Mitch

sniff

Robusto

There was no talk of bird-hipped vs. lizard-hipped then, I can tell you.

Now, cats—there's another story entirely.

Mitch

@Robusto I think the lack of discussion was the first misstep among many

Robusto

Yes. It's the Big-Endian/Little-Endian story all over again.

Mitch

12:41 PM

@Robusto if we left that story for the cats to tell, all we'd get is a blank stare of contempt

Robusto

Some would whine and express discontent.

Some would pee in your shoe when no one was looking.

Mitch

Some would purr and then bit the shit out of your arm

Robusto

Cats are the real tragedy in this descending story.

Mitch

Im pretty sure from their point of view, we're the tragic ones

Our fatal flaw? Not knowing what our fatal flaw is

Robusto

Cats don't believe they have any flaws at all, much less fatal ones.

Mitch

12:45 PM

Flaws are for losers

Cats just have inconveniences

Mostly humans

Robusto

Cats say flaws are reserved for dogs alone. And humans.

Mitch

Haha dogs

What a bunch of clowns

So annoying

Robusto

Pathetic.

Mitch

Always trying to curry favor

Smiling too much

Like Americans

Robusto

So eager to please. Cats would never stoop to such tricks.

CowperKettle

12:49 PM

Artist from Crimea got 15 years of jail for splashing yellow and blue paint on the local administration building in the spring of 2022.

FSB said that he also threw a Molotov cocktail in the window, but it failed to ignite.

Hence, terrorism and 15 years of jail.

Mitch

15? That seems a bit low for those two colors together

Robusto

@CowperKettle And they found a six-pack of bomb casings in his refrigerator, no doubt.

Mitch

That would be an awesome joke if Ukraine (or Sweden) hadn't chosen those two colors already

CowperKettle

My mother talked by phone with her old classmate, who lives in Crimea. They are worrying about the possible lack of water, because the channel from near Kakhovka fed the northern Crimea. She is lucky, she lives on the southern coast, where they have their own sources of water.

Until the dam is restored and refilled, it will be hard to replenish the channel with water.

Mitch

@CowperKettle The dam was destroyed?

Robusto

12:54 PM

🌎 Jun 6, 2023 🌍
🔥 25 | Avg. Guesses: 4.51
🟥🟥🟩 = 3

globle-game.com
#globle

Mitch

Nice

CowperKettle

North Crimean Canal

The North Crimean Canal (Ukrainian: Північно-Кримський канал, romanized: Pivnichno-Krymskyi kanal, Russian: Северо-Крымский канал, romanized: Severo-Krymskii Kanal, in the Soviet Union: North Crimean Canal of the Lenin's Komsomol of Ukraine) is a land improvement canal for irrigation and watering of Kherson Oblast in southern Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula. The canal has multiple branches throughout Kherson Oblast and Crimea. Preparation for construction began in 1957, soon after the transfer of Crimea to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1954. The main project works took place in three...

@Mitch Yes, it blew up in the night

Mitch

Oh that's awful

CowperKettle

Robusto

Wordle 717 3/6

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CowperKettle

12:57 PM

Even parts of Kherson are under water, and it is located on the right bank, the higher bank.

I don't think that it was Ukraine. The damage is too extensive.

It would have taken dozens of rockets.

There's some 150 tonnes of engine oil that has reportedly leaked from the power station into the river, and there may be more

alphabet

1:54 PM

@CowperKettle Yep, current consensus is that it was Russia. May also have been an attempt to sabotage the nuclear power plant nearby.

tchrist

2:12 PM

AI chatbots lose money every time you use them.

@alphabet Because of analysing who most benefits from this, or for other reasons?

CowperKettle

Wagner Group's head Prigozhin said that he gives the MoD "two weeks to defend Belgorod Oblast", or else "we will go to Rublevka (a luxury village where the top brass lives) to ask for artillery shells. [..] We won't allow [high officials who seek to enrich their daughters and son-in-laws] (a nod to Shoigu) to just sit around lubing their assholes".

He said "We won't allow some dochniks and zyatniks to just sit around lubing their assholes"

Basically he invented two new words to poke fun at Shoigu, who made his daughter rich through state contracts, and his son-in-law rich too, and to top that, his son-in-law dared to make an Instagram comment against the war, under some anti-war post.

> «А вдруг мы поедем на рублевку спрашивать, где наши боеприпасы? Даю Минобороны 2 недели на защиту Белгорода. Мы не позволим дочникам и зятникам сидеть и намазывать себе жопы вазелином».

(in original Russian)

Google Translate failed to translate this properly -- too much context and innuendo.

By "lubing their assholes" he makes a strong invective against Shoigu, since it means "preparing to be had (preparing to be penetrated) by a Ukrainian offensive"

He is a criminal with a long experience in jails, and it's their criminal ugly way of attacking people.

I can't believe that Putin's "vertical of power" would just crumble to pieces after just a year of relatively mild war (compared with WWI and WWII).

Aren't there really partiotic officers in the Army.

They just allow a thug to smear the whole Russian Army.

tchrist

2:52 PM

@CowperKettle If all this is so difficult for Russians to hope to understand, alas it is tantamount to impossible for others to do so.

alphabet

@tchrist Mainly yes. But it's far from certain.

Sorry, shouldn't have overstated the case.

@CowperKettle Such creative insults you have.

Robusto

@tchrist Yeah, I read that too. And once it really goes public, it will be accompanied by ads and fees, and reduced in quality.

alphabet

I think it's fairly clear that Ukraine's goal is to tie up MoD/Wagner forces in Belgorod oblast so that they won't have the resources to defend against a counteroffensive. They don't really care about Belgorod itself.

(I've seen some sources refer to it as "Bilhorod"--I think that's the Ukrainian name.)

@CowperKettle Isn't one of Putin's daughters a mysteriously wealthy rock-and-roll dancer?

Rather confusing how all Western sources are now calling the Dnepier river the Dnipro. Consistent, but confusing.

@CowperKettle Incidentally, have you ever seen the Last Week Tonight episode about Putin? It's an American comedy show; it's where all my odd Putin factoids come from.

alphabet

3:23 PM

My favorite part was learning about Такого как путин. I really hope that that's satire.

Vikas

3:47 PM

> US knew about Ukraine’s plan to attack the Nord Stream pipeline: Washington Post

@CowperKettle 🤣

alphabet

@Vikas Clearly an attempt to combat climate change

MetaEd

4:51 PM

Wordle 717 4/6

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MetaEd

5:08 PM

@Mitch starling: rastling ratlings.

Robusto

5:19 PM

Daily Quordle 498
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m-w.com/games/quordle

Daily Octordle #498
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Score: 72

Yuk.

@MetaEd last grin; last ring; ring slat; art sling; trig glans.

alphabet

Anyway, the whole Nord Stream thing probably means we shouldn't jump to conclusions about the dam explosion

MetaEd

5:34 PM

@Robusto girl ants.

Robusto

@MetaEd Damn, that one's so good it should have been mine.

Although trig glans wasn't bad.

MetaEd

@Robusto slit rang.

Robusto

its gnarl

or it's gnarl

MetaEd

@Robusto Ra glints.

or it gnarls.

@Robusto tan girls.

Robusto

artlings

slant rig

MetaEd

5:50 PM

Lint rags.

Gran list.

Salt ring.

CowperKettle

@alphabet Turns out there's a parody titled "I want a man like Hitler" youtu.be/fh47Ox3yss4

Чуєш мій друже, славний юначе. Хорова капела "Дударик"

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A song from 1918 about Free Ukraine, put on the same exact music as a 1918 song about the Soviets

The Red Army sang how they will die for Soviet power, and Ukrainians had the same refrain, but with free Ukraine.

And the White Army had the same song, but without mentioning Free Ukraine.

As a child, I knew the Red Army version and sang it to my grandma :)

Смело мы в бой пойдём - Bravely we go into battle (Soviet song)

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It was probably very singable, so no use to ditch a good tune, it was better to just change the lyrics

Смело мы в бой пойдем за Русь святую | Слышали, деды, война началася…

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The White Army version

Смело мы в бой пойдём

Смело мы в бой пойдём — популярная песня времён Первой мировой войны и Гражданской войны в России. == История == В 1910-е годы на слова Александра Васильевича Колчака «Белой акации гроздья душистые» М. Штейнбергом был написан романс. Во время Первой мировой войны появилась солдатская песня «Слыхали, деды, война началася…»После Революции 1917 года песня была переработана и появились два варианта: «Марш белой армии», более известный по словам «Смело мы в бой пойдем за Русь святую» («Слышали деды») и рождённую от него первую советскую песню — «Смело мы в бой пойдем за власть Советов». Уже в 1919 году...

"Не пора!" - один з найпопулярніших українських гімнів початку ХХ століття

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Another popular military Ukrainian march from the Civil War

Based on lyrics written in 1880 by Ivan Franko, for whom the city of Ivano-Frankovsk was named

Ivano-Frankivsk

Ivano-Frankivsk (Ukrainian: Івано-Франківськ, IPA: [iˈwɑno frɐnˈkiu̯sʲk] (listen)), formerly Stanyslaviv and Stanislav, is a city in western Ukraine. It serves as the administrative centre of Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast as well as Ivano-Frankivsk Raion within the oblast. Ivano-Frankivsk also hosts the administration of Ivano-Frankivsk urban hromada. Its population is 238,196 (2022 est.).Built in the mid-17th century as a fortress of the Polish Potocki family, Stanisławów was annexed to the Habsburg Empire during the First Partition of Poland in 1772, after which it became the property of the State within...

MetaEd

7:31 PM

This all makes me think of the Fireside Book of Folk Songs. Among the songs collected, a number of leftist protest songs such as "Tачанка"

jlliagre

9:11 PM

Wordle 717 5/6

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Daily Quordle 498
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m-w.com/games/quordle

Daily Octordle #498
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Score: 76
C'est pas ma journée !

CowperKettle

11:39 PM

@MetaEd Yes, a nice song :)

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