English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

18:00

@Robusto So just right and attractive. Yes, I could live with that.

tchrist

@Robusto Er, a custom language? Is that like the Anglo-Norman creole known as Middle English.

@coleopterist Your use of ass is offensive.

Cerberus

Offensive is bullshit.

But...we are not our own lords.

coleopterist

@tchrist :P english.stackexchange.com/search?q=ass ?

Robusto

@tchrist Don't go calling English a creole language. Vultures will descend on you.

10

Q: Is Yiddish a creole language? And if not, what is it?

A "creole" language is formed by the merging of two parent languages, usually through an earlier rudimentary mixture of the two. Does this make Yiddish a creole language? Was English itself a creole language in the century or so after the Norman Conquest? My question is really about what constit...

Originally asked on ELU. Got closed for my trouble.

tchrist

Who taught them to adore gumbo?

I think creole is considered pejorative by some.

Then again, so are spades.

Robusto

18:06

►

tchrist

@Robusto The silence was deafening.

Robusto

It's a fake, btw. But a funny one.

tchrist

Ah.

Robusto

►

Cerberus

@tchrist PC people should just shut up.

Sorry.

Robusto

18:09

►

South Park doesn't shut up.

Cerberus

Haha.

Good.

hides

tchrist

@sim I had tried to edit the title, but it got rolled back. Obviously my editing wasn’t going to work here.

simchona

@tchrist You obliterated the title; you can just censor it.

tchrist

If you think that is better, ok.

Carlo_R.

tchrist has improved the title, not censored.

tchrist

18:14

Is AAVE the PC term for black slang?

Cerberus

No, it was plain censorship, good or bad.

@tchrist I think so.

tchrist

I feel like "black slang" is no longer PC.

Cerberus

Fuck PC!

tchrist

So gets censored.

Cerberus

PCness and euphemisms offend me.

tchrist

18:15

Careful, there are mad flaggers around here.

Robusto

@Cerberus So you prefer a Mac to a PC now?

Cerberus

As does censorship, for whatever reason.

@tchrist I will gladly make the sacrifice.

simchona

"Question on black slang" doesn't make the title better. It's like "question on English"

Cerberus

@Robusto Ehh oops.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that many abbreviations offend me too.

Use as few as possible.

tchrist

@simchona I wish you were wrong. :)

Robusto

18:16

I too am off'ed by abbrevs.

Cerberus

They are snobbish and excluding.

tchrist

exuding?

What do they exude?

Cerberus

@Robusto If you have been "offed", then how are you still talking?

@tchrist They obscure what you are saying from the uninitiated.

Robusto

He said exlude — I guess it means out of school or something like that?

Cerberus

Oh, that.

tchrist

18:18

Out of the game.

Robusto

@Cerberus Not "offed" — off'ed. Pay attention. It's my abbreviation for offended.

Cerberus

"Offed" is my abbreviation for "STFU".

I hope that did not offend you.

tchrist

Whole lotta attention payments hereabouts of late.

Robusto

@Cerberus IOTW, your abbreviation for "So, That's Fairly Understandable"?

Cerberus

Depending on what your abbreviation(s?) mean(s), yes or no.

Or yes and no.

tchrist

18:20

Damned elves!

Cerberus

Stop playing Warcraft.

Or the card game.

tchrist

> Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.

Robusto

3

Q: "Bust a cap" meaning and derivation

I've always believed that the phrase "bust a cap in yo ass" was AAVE for: To shoot an individual with a gun. Whilst trying to figure out what the cap actually meant, I ran into this alternate definition/footnote: This is not a new phrase as much of the Rap culture would like us to belie...

etymology expressions american-english aave

Cerberus

Boo hoo.

Robusto

I changed it to remove the offensive bowdlerization.

Cerberus

18:21

Heh.

Better.

Robusto

The "ass" part was not germane anyway, not really. At least not central.

tchrist

Gildor was silent for a moment. 'I do not like this news,' he said at last. 'That Gandalf should be late, does not bode well. But it is said: Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. The choice is yours: to go or wait.'

'And it is also said,' answered Frodo: 'Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.'

'Is it indeed?' laughed Gildor. 'Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill. But what would you? You have not told me all concerning yourself…

Cerberus

In Belgium, a new law allows consumers to cancel any phone plan after 6 months, unirregardlessly of any conditions.

They should have that in your country.

Or ours, for that matter.

tchrist

That would be the No Short and Curlies Bill.

Robusto

@tchrist It is well known that the elves were the lawyer race in Middle Earth.

Cerberus

18:25

nods

It is well known that certain races are better fit for certain professions.

tchrist

Racist!

Elves can be miners!

Cerberus

Never.

They are sissies.

Robusto

@Cerberus It's no accident that white people produced The Amazing Race.

The Amazing Race

The Amazing Race is a reality television game show in which teams of two people, who have some form of a preexisting personal relationship, race around the world in competition with other teams. Contestants strive to arrive first at "pit stops" at the end of each leg of the race to win prizes and to avoid coming in last, which carries the possibility of elimination or a significant disadvantage in the following leg. Contestants travel to and within multiple countries in a variety of transportation modes, including airplanes, hot-air balloons, helicopters, trucks, bicycles, taxicabs, car...

Cerberus

Haha.

Exactly.

Carlo_R.

Haha

Robusto

18:28

Can you even imagine black people or hispanics or Asians wasting their time with such nonsense? They have other nonsense to fritter away their time with.

tchrist

> "He was as tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship." —J.R.R. Tolkien on Legolas (Book of Lost Tales 2, p. 333)

Cerberus

Never.

They care only for education, hard work, and morals. Stupid leftist hobbies.

Robusto

@tchrist Yeah, and Peter Jackson made him look like a girl.

tchrist

Sounds like rightist hobbies to me.

How so?

Cerberus

@tchrist Then why do elves never live in the cold north, if they don't care about cold?

tchrist

18:29

Gondolin

Cerberus

Bleh, that's not cold.

Robusto

@tchrist Long hair and a dress go a long way toward making you look feminine.

tchrist

Never saw him in a dress, and Jeebis would like a word with you about long hair.

You’ve been reading the Very Secret Diaries again, haven’t you?

Robusto

No. I've been reading The Apparently Not Secret Enough Diaries.

MετάEd

Now y'all stop making fun of Legolam.

tchrist

18:31

The Very Secret Diary of Legolas, Son of Weenus

MετάEd

"This is indeed a queer river," said Bromosel, as the water lapped at his thighs.

tchrist

The VSD of Legolas, part deux

Robusto

@MετάEd You misspelled "waiter" ...

MartyIX

Good morning/afternoon/night :-) I've heard the sentence: "I have never been to the USA." many times and I know the meaning. I'm just thinking about the part "be to". I have never seen it in any other sentence.. Is it commonly used?

Thank you

Robusto

"I have never been to the opera."

"I have never been to a baseball game."

"I have never been to a Pentecostal Bible rally."

"I have never been to your house."

"I have never been to your country."

It is used all the time.

So ... get used to it.

tchrist

18:37

►

Elrond does it better.

Robusto

►

tchrist

“I’ve been to paradise, but I’ve never been to me.”

MartyIX

@Robusto Thank you and in other tenses (past tense, future tense, ...). All the examples are in present perfect tense

?

tchrist

flees

Robusto

@MartyIX In all seriousness, this is not a bad question. Certainly worthy of an answer on ELU. You could ask why the construction "have ever/never been to" is OK, but is not used in present tense, etc.

Only perfect tenses: "have been to, had been to, will have been to" ...

MartyIX

18:45

@Robusto I'll use your examples and ask the question. :)

Robusto

@MartyIX If you do so you will probably raise the quality of the recent questions by at least 15%.

tchrist

And I shall answer it.

For the answer is found in OED sense 6 of be.

As are examples.

GR.

MartyIX

@Robusto Is this some kind of British humor? confused

tchrist

The British have no humor.

This is well known.

MartyIX

:-))

tchrist

18:49

The British have humour.

Robusto

@MartyIX No, not British. Far from it. I am just lamenting the general dearth of interesting questions on our site.

@tchrist And that gives them the vapours.

tchrist

What, you don’t like the Tooth Fairy?

MartyIX

@tchrist OED - what does it stand for?

tchrist

RTFM

Idiomatically, in past, now only in perfect and pluperfect tenses, with to, and a substantive, or infinitive of purpose: To have been (at the proper place) in order to, or for the purpose of. Cf. Sp. and Pg. fué ‘I was’ in sense of ‘I went.’

C. 1645 Howell Lett. (1678) 24, ― I was yesterday to wait upon Sir Herbert Croft.
1747 Lady Shaftesb. in Priv. Lett. Ld. Malmesbury I. 51, ― I was to see the new farce.
1760 Goldsmith Cit. W. (1840) 158, ― I was this morning to buy silk for a nightcap.
Mod. ― Have you been to the Crystal Palace? I had been to see Irving that night.

Robusto

@tchrist I don't like any Australian fairies.

tchrist

18:53

I just blew my last wad on you, @Rob. You should be happy.

Robusto

@tchrist Not the same thing. You're mixing the infinitive "to" with the "going" sense of "to" — which I still think is not found in present or simple past. "I was to Spain"?

tchrist

We don’t say that anymore.

Robusto

@tchrist Umm, thanks ... I think.

tchrist

They are saying that it is mixing to be with to go.

For example, the first citation is not equivalent to I was going to wait upon him yesterday, but rather, I did go to wait upon him.

Or so I surmise.

Robusto

@tchrist Or "was supposed to wait upon him"

"Young Henry was to be King of England, but was murdered before he could be crowned."

tchrist

18:57

I don’t know, but I think all the first three was instances are the same as went.

No, that is a different sense.

Robusto

@tchrist Right, we don't know. And that is where the question gets interesting, and is not GR.

MartyIX

english.stackexchange.com/questions/84365/… -- I have posted the question.

@tchrist Thanks

tchrist

But the first three citations are given in support of the last one, indicating they are the same sense.

I really don’t see any way for you to interpret them as being in some other sense, given the explicit context and explanation.

Only loose sentences could be so interpreted.

Robusto

But the question of why only in past and never present is interesting.

tchrist

“I am to the Crystal Palace” doesn’t work. It has to be “I go to the Crystal Palace”.

Robusto

19:02

How did the construction come about? OED is silent on the subject? If so, this only proves that the OED is not a miracle tool that can answer all questions.

tchrist

Or I am at it.

Robusto

@tchrist Yes, but why doesn't it work?

tchrist

Because of the motion.

Robusto

What motion?

tchrist

You are asking why you cannot use "to" with "be" in the present tense for position.

Robusto

19:04

If you can say, in the context of the OED citation, "I was to wait upon Sir Henry," why can't you say "I am to wait upon Sir Henry"?

tchrist

Because then we use at, which has no motion.

That OED cite meant "I went to".

Where are you now? I am just to the top of the stairs.

Normally it is I am at the top of the stairs.

Because the to implies motion.

Robusto

@tchrist You are reading things into the citation that I don't think are explicit or intended.

tchrist

It is the only way to read it that admits a separate sense.

16. With the dative infinitive, making a future of appointment or arrangement; hence of necessity, obligation, or duty; in which sense have is now commonly substituted.

That is the one you are thinking of.

That is not this one.

Robusto

@tchrist But I thought there were no separate senses, that the context precludes interpretation.

tchrist

Pay attention.

Those cites are under sense 6, not sense 16.

That tells you what they mean.

Robusto

19:07

Whatever. The point is, it's not Gen Ref even within the OED context. It requires some discussion and interpretation.

tchrist

This is from sense 17:

1798 Malthus Popul. (1817) II. 194 ― It must be to be depended upon.

Robusto

You are moving away from the light.

tchrist

I have been in the light long enough.

Do enjoy answering the question.

Cerberus

The funny thing is, it works almost exactly the same way in Dutch.

Mitch

My funny this doesn't work at all. ashamed

Cerberus

19:10

You can say ik ben naar Londen geweest, although you would use it in a different situation (with a specific time in the past, I'd say).

Robusto

@Cerberus I prefer when you use the unfunny this. Demonstrative pronouns aren't meant to be used for humorous purposes.

Cerberus

Argh.

This = thing is.

Typing. Hard.

Robusto

@Cerberus What, you have your own private code?

Cerberus

My subconscious has, unfortunately.

You can't say ik ben naar Londen.

Mitch

It's true, I can't say that.

Cerberus

19:12

You could possibly say ik ben naar huis "I am to home" is a casual context, when you mean you have just decided to go home.

tchrist

It just conflates be and go in the past.

Cerberus

@Mitch Perhaps practice is needed.

Mitch

I have been to London != I have gone to London.

tchrist

Oh, but I think it does.

Cerberus

Because you're long back.

Mitch

19:13

@Cerberus Pheraps. No, no pratice is needed because I will never try again. I just sprained my tongue.

tchrist

There is definitely going involved.

Cerberus

@Mitch But that difference is a bit more subtle than what we're talking about.

Mitch

@Cerberus It has been awhile.

tchrist

Or you couldn’t have been.

Mitch

@tchrist they are close but not identical (in my mind)

Cerberus

19:13

@Mitch I meant when you say "I have been to London".

Mitch

@Cerberus Me too.

Cerberus

You would say that after your return. Not so with I have gone to London.

tchrist

Have you been to the store yet today?

Cerberus

I would not use been there so often.

But it is possible.

Mitch

@tchrist "I went there but was interrupted before I arrived. So, no, I did not get the nutella."

Cerberus

19:15

Too subtle.

tchrist

It’s a perfectly common phrase.

Cerberus

The difference is too subtle compared to I have been to London v. I am to London.

tchrist

One does not say I am to London.

Cerberus

But actually, I would say I am to bed.

@tchrist Exactly.

So not so subtle.

tchrist

I would say I’m for bed.

Cerberus

19:16

That's different.

Mitch

@tchrist That I wholeheartedly agree with.

tchrist

Then I don’t know what you mean.

Mitch

oh...

Cerberus

@tchrist You don't know I am to bed?

tchrist

Right.

Cerberus

19:17

It is old fashioned, but still heard, perhaps only jokingly.

Robusto

@tchrist Pepys said "And so to bed" quite often.

tchrist

You think so?

Cerberus

Could be beyond dead in America.

Robusto

> I fell a-reading Fuller’s History of Abbys, and my wife in Great Cyrus till twelve at night, and so to bed.

tchrist

But no verb.

Gimme a verb.

I must away.

Mitch

19:18

@tchrist so that does give some sense of 'going' or 'gone' to 'been'. Is that your point?

tchrist

Yes.

Mitch

@Robusto yeah and Pepys had other problems too.

Robusto

Hey, cut the boy some slack. There was a great fire and all.

tchrist

"And now to bed with you" is that same as "And you are to bed". The latter phrase is invalid.

Mitch

@Cerberus "I'm off to bed" sounds plausible.

@Robusto he started that?

tchrist

19:19

To be off to somewhere is damned goish to me.

Robusto

@Mitch Cue Billy Joel.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah, but that doesn't sound old fashioned.

@tchrist Perhaps it is faux-old-fashioned with a verb.

But I have seen/heard it used, I am sure of it.

Though always ironically.

tchrist

Not I.

Cerberus

Well, it is not an interesting example anyway.

Because it is supposed to sound old fashioned.

tchrist

Give me some 19th century citations.

attempts to scare the Dickens out of the dog

Cerberus

19:24

Get them yourself.

tchrist

Or Doyle.

I don’t have any.

Which is my point.

You’re sure you have heard it, so show me some citations.

Cerberus

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

Well, it is not an interesting example anyway.

tchrist

And I am sure that I have not heard it.

Your position is the easier one to prove.

And mine to remedy.

Cerberus

I have nothing to prove.

Mitch

@tchrist mmm...yes...but also no.

it's the 'off' that is 'actively moving away'

Cerberus

19:31

Goish as in Goyim?

Mitch

that's what I read at first.

"'to be off' is not very yiddish", nu?

Carlo_R.

Ya!

Mitch

exactly.

Carlo_R.

@DavidWallace For Italy there is Europe, for Texas there is US; is there some kind of confederation to which NZ belong?

Nowadays it is of foundamental importance to belong to a confederation for any state.

Confederation protect its State from the instability.

Mitch

The Commonwealth

simchona

19:44

@Carlo_R. fundamental

Mitch

(former colonies/members of the UK)

Carlo_R.

Thank you Mitch.

And thanks to sim

simchona

@Carlo_R. "A confederation protects its states..."

Robusto

@Mitch: Are there any grammarians in grade schools? (But then I have to admit, I don't know what grade schools are.) — Barrie England 4 mins ago

Yeah, right.

Eustace Tilly, meet Barrie England.

MετάEd

@Carlo_R. According to CIA factbook, NZ is a Commonwealth realm; accepts compulsory ICJ jurisdiction with reservations; accepts ICCt jurisdiction; and belongs to: ADB, ANZUS (US suspended security obligations to NZ on 11 August 1986), APEC, ARF, ASEAN (dialogue partner), Australia Group,

Mitch

19:45

There are different kinds of collections. Being a member of the Commmonwealth is not like being a member of the EU or a state in the US. The associations are slightly different.

MετάEd

BIS, C, CP, EAS, EBRD, FAO, FATF, IAEA, IBRD, ICAO, ICC, ICRM, IDA, IEA, IFAD, IFC, IFRCS, IHO, ILO, IMF, IMO, IMSO, Interpol, IOC, IOM, IPU, ISO, ITSO, ITU, ITUC, MIGA, NSG, OECD, OPCW, Paris Club (associate), PCA, PIF, Sparteca, SPC, UN, UNCTAD, UNESCO, UNHCR, UNIDO, UNMISS, UNMIT, UNTSO, UPU, WCO, WFTU, WHO, WIPO, WMO, WTO

Mitch

@MετάEd Interpol? Shhh...pull down the shades.

tchrist

@Robusto This is the guy who doesn’t want people talking about future tense anymore, or perfect tenses either. He uses "tense" to mean "inflectional change to a single word". That is a very restricted sense, and not in general use.

Robusto

Grr.

Mitch

"(US suspended security obligations to NZ on 11 August 1986)" WTF - I had plans based on those obligations.

user19161

19:48

@Mitch Life often does not go according to plans. In fact, they usually don't.

Mitch

@JasperLoy I hadn't planned on that.

@JasperLoy or rather, that just sounds so...negative: "suspended security obligations". Yay, now Tonga can attack without fear!!

@Carlo_R. After all those acronyms for various affiliations, I still think that the most salient connection that Australia has with a group is the Commonwealth. But IANAAONZ (I am not an Australian or Kiwi) so I'm just repeating what I think I've heard others say.

Carlo_R.

Thanks Mitch, I'm with you.

Mitch

@tchrist He is being teacherly. It'll be on the exam. "How many tenses are there in English? 2."

Iif you don't count the others.

tchrist

He doesn’t believe in the notion of a compound tense, which is stupid.

Robusto

Also, he doesn't believe in grade schools or, presumably, any American term for anything.

Mitch

19:58

@tchrist reading the question again..you really can't say 'I was to the store'

@Robusto I don't know what he calls it so I guess that's fair.

RegDwighт

One has to believe in American schools?

Robusto

He would no doubt call them "grammar schools" ...

Mitch

@RegDwighт Education is falling apart in the US

Carlo_R.

I know this is not interesting, but for an Italian speaker it is not immaginabile to think only in terms of two tenses (present and past). It would be like to expect from a non math person to understand the topology.

user19161

@Robusto I am sure he knows about McDonald's.

Mitch

19:59

@Robusto Oh. Yeah, that sounds american too though, but I'd never use it.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…