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00:26
@tchrist Yeah that makes little sense.
> 25 velletjes per dag per persoon komt neer op anderhalve rol per week per persoon en dat is 78 rollen per persoon per jaar.
So this television programme says the average Dutchman uses 78 rolls a year.
Which seems a tad high, but not extreme.
01:23
These numbers are all over the place. Are you telling me we can estimate the age of the universe but not how much toilet paper people use?
@Mitch Thank you for the explanation!
@jlliagre I wonder how they measured this.
@CowperKettle In miles.
I often use toilet paper to clean the floor in the toilet, it's easier than getting the bucket and the rag. I take some length of paper, put a little water on it, and drag the paper where the floor meets the wall, where the most of the dust gathers.
Maybe US people use toilet paper similarly in alternative ways.
It's great for quickly getting rid of dust in other rooms too, without resorting to rags, which should be washed afterwards, while the piece of paper could be just disposed of.
@M.A.R. That brings up another question. Just how much toilet paper does the Universe use?
01:42
@Robusto We don't even have data for Ireland so for the Universe, don't hold your breath.
@jlliagre Ireland is not part of the Universe. Those people go their own way.
@CowperKettle It is the same here.
People use it to clean various objects and places.
02:15
@jlliagre The real question I have about that chart: what country uses miles as a unit but uses commas to represent a decimal point?
Hah!
Yes, that's odd.
I wonder why Russia uses so little, though.
02:35
@alphabet None. Fixed:
I think such extraordinary differences require extraordinarily reliable data.
02:54
I would like to celebrate being 1/3 of the way through reading Huddleston & Pullum. I'm not sure why I'm reading this thing, since it has no relevance to my career or future, but it makes me feel like I'm accomplishing something!
3
03:17
(Why I'm actually doing it: ADHD hyperfixation. But that's a story for another time.)
@alphabet I do understand.
They have done valuable work, but some of what they say also seems a bit misguided.
@Cerberus Overall, I like their analyses, but I hate their terminology.
Haha, yes, I guess maybe a part of what seems off to me is their terminology.
They use well known terms in ways very different from what we know, just for the hell of it.
Or so it seems.
@Cerberus They seem to alternate between (1) radically changing the meanings of existing terms and (2) inventing new, extremely complicated terms for things that are otherwise straightforward.
03:32
Heh yes, exactly.
See: "yesterday" is a pronoun, but "that" is a fused determiner-head.
!
That's what I meant by for the hell of it...
They just seem to like upsetting people.
@Cerberus My preference is to (1) basically accept how they analyze things but (2) try to translate it into less insane terminology when, say, answering questions on ELU.
Another annoyance: they say that, in a phrase like "a friend of mine's brother," the word "mine's" is in two different genitive cases simultaneously, which is just...yuck.
Hmm.
I'd prefer not to call of a case.
It is a praeposition.
Possessive, yes, but not a case.
@Cerberus It's not the "of," it's that "mine" is the independent genitive form of "I"
03:37
They seem to confuse syntactic with semantic terminology, for the sake of simplicity, which I see many people do.
So here, when you add "-'s" to it, you're making a genitive out of a genitive.
Ok but mine is a possesive form, but not a case, I would say.
@Cerberus They're actually quite careful not to mix syntactic and semantic terminology, but you have to be careful because which terms are which won't be obvious to anyone who hasn't read H&P.
They never use 'subject' to mean primary argument?
@Cerberus They fastidiously avoid that and even mention it specifically. They make it very clear that "subject" is a syntactic role, not a semantic one, and that semantic arguments are a separate concept.
03:44
Ok, I'm surprised, then.
Maybe it is many of their adherents-linguists who do this, then.
@Cerberus Yeah, H&P keep the terminology straight, but it's quite hard for me to do so when explaining things.
There are also Certain People Out There who have decided that CGEL is gospel and represents the universal consensus of linguists
I went to the clinic for blood tests, and while at it, finally finished memorizing The Pulley, Oppenheimer's fave poem
04:23
> Indian trains ran over more than 13,000 cattle in 2022 according to data released by the government.

This is up 24% from 2019, when 10,609 cattle were hit by trains, according to numbers shared by nine of 17 railway zones in India with the BBC.

Cattle deaths from train collisions isn't new in India, though the media's scrutiny of these deaths has increased over the past few years as the country launches newer trains.

In 2019, a semi-high speed Vande Bharat Express train broke down just a day after it was flagged off by Prime Minister Narendra Modi. At the time, a railways spokesperson
> However, some experts say that fencing the Indian Railways' serpentine network is next to impossible. Rakesh Chopra, a former railway official says, "barricading or fencing railway tracks is not a viable solution to the problem and even the railways knows that. If we want to stop such incidents, we will have to think of something out of the box".
 
5 hours later…
09:12
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, phone number detected in title (281): 6372819715//AA Credit Loan App Customer helpline number 9608866145 call new‭ by Ds raja‭ on english.SE
I guess spam from India XD
09:46
@Vikas "People keep falling off this bridge." "Well what do you suggest?" "How about a fence?" "Next to impossible! Just think out of the box."
10:34
@Vikas This is odd. Maybe India is unique and cattle grazing areas interlap to a huge extent with railways?
11:11
@CowperKettle India has a very large stray cow population: washingtonpost.com/world/2018/07/16/amp-stories/…
11:43
@alphabet Ah, yes, it's probably due to the fact that they are all stray, and nobody's looking for them.
Maybe some religious services should be set up to look for them since they are sacred animals.
@CowperKettle I think it's the opposite; nobody wants to round them up because of their religious importance.
11:59
@alphabet Looks like someone published the markdown. Probably a glitch of some kind.
#Worldle #441 1/6 (100%)
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
⭐⭐⭐🪙
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr
🌎 Apr 7, 2023 🌍
🔥 4 | Avg. Guesses: 4.76
🟧🟧🟨🟥🟥🟩 = 6

globle-game.com
#globle
Wordle 657 4/6

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12:48
[stamp-text theme=lower-third]

In recent years, state governments run by the party of Hindu nationalist Prime Minister Narendra Modi have tightened laws to protect cows, making it harder for farmers to sell for slaughter cattle that are no longer giving milk.

[/stamp-text]
13:11
@Cerberus looks around
@alphabet 'yesterday' and other time periods are proper nouns. In the Mongol pre-empire animism, 'Yesterday' and 'Tomorrow' were minor deities (but strangely enough, not 'today', but I suppose there's some sort of weird justification for that).
@Robusto Not enough, am I right!
self high fives
Morgen, Morgen, nur nicht Heute, sagen allen Mongol Leute.
Word of the day: signet ring cell
I came across the term in a Russian-language Twitter feed of a pathologist who has been examining a tissue sample taken from a 28 yo woman. The woman turns out to have signet ring cell carcinoma, which is a horrible diagnosis.
@alphabet No, the ’s applies to the NP not to the word. Consider it somebody else's problem.
It's not like we've turned else into a possessive there. We have not. It isn't even a noun or pronoun. We turned all of the NP somebody else into a possessive.
I wonder if this is in any known language, or just doodling.
13:38
@Mitch down low ... too slow
@alphabet I only first learned about 'ADHD hyperfixation' this year, in a chatroom from a guy who thinks he has ADHD. He supposedly discovered ADHD in himself only at about age 40
He is a co-author of a number of books on psychiatry, I have a couple of books co-authored by him.
His dad was a high-ranking psychiatrist in the USSR.
Daily Octordle #438
🔟9️⃣
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7️⃣🕛
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Score: 61
14:08
Surgical chainsaw for bones, mid-19th century.
Based on open-source research, 19688 Russian soldiers have died in Ukraine
Of them 1665 were discovered in the past 2 weeks.
In the 10-year long Afghan war (1979-1989) some 15000 soldiers died.
@CowperKettle You mean, those are confirmed individual deaths, right? So it is the absolute minimum.
@Cerberus Yes, based on open sources (local newspapers, social network posts by relatives, etc.)
And strictly confirmed by the editors of Mediazona.
@CowperKettle All these blood-curdling 19th c/early 20th c surgical implements come in these fancy embroidered boxes. bone saws, sternum splitters, fetus forceps and extractors, brain spoons (for per-ocular cerebrum scooping). I mean can't they just hang them on the rusty rack above the abattoir surgical table?
The real figure.. who knows. I guess the real figure is double that. To be safe and not over-count.
@Mitch They were probably very expensive, made from high-quality steel.
Casualties in the Russo-Ukrainian War included six deaths during the 2014 annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, 14,200–14,400 military and civilian deaths during the war in Donbas (2014–2022), and tens of thousands of deaths during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. == Russian annexation of Crimea == During the Russian annexation of Crimea from 23 February through 19 March 2014, six people were killed. The dead included three protesters, two Ukrainian soldiers and one Russian Cossack paramilitary. On 10 August 2016, Russia accused the Special Forces of Ukraine of conducting a raid...
Much higher estimates here, like 60,000 Russians killed.
14:26
Maybe. I usually divide the official Ukrainian numbers by 2. And in Mediazona's case, I would just multiply by 2 :)
Nobody really knows.
I'm looking at some estimates.
@CowperKettle Maybe.
14:53
@CowperKettle There must have been either many many individual surgical implement makers, or a really well setup to produce them in an assembly line. And one important branch of the assembly line was building the fancy display boxes.
@Robusto One hand doesn't know what the other is doing.
15:19
Amor Vincit Omnia
 
1 hour later…
16:38
@CowperKettle Why of course it does! Arnor is the elder of the two kingdoms founded by Elendil after Númenor foundered, and Gondor but a sunny second-son's realm.
@tchrist The issue is that H&P need to posit two kinds of genitives: one applying to heads (marked by -'s or pronoun inflection) and a separate one applying to whole NPs (marked only by -'s on the last word). Yuck.
Why would they call those genitives, though.
The genitive is a case, not some function.
@Cerberus Because they can. I still prefer the "-'s is a clitic, English has no genitive case except for pronouns" reading.
17:05
@alphabet I don't disagree but that (and any rejoinder) just sounds like caviling over terminology, not the actual concepts.
but I didn't come here for this.
I came here to complain about other things.
For example...
actually, not 'for example'
I came here to complain about one thing in particular.
Here it is.
I'm stalling while I try to remember why I came here.
What exactly it was I wanted to complain about.
...
sigh
...
It had something to do with...
oh now I remember....
I was just watching a youtube 'webinar' (basically a live show cast by youtube, so you can see and hear but not respond).
And they have one of those 'comment streams' on the right
so that viewers at the time of live casting can comment in text on what people in the cast are talking about (but also respond to other commenters).
Sounds great right?
The complaint is that, there are -many- watchers (100s at least), and if even a small percentage try to say something, that one comment is immediately followed by other comments, possibly responding to the commenter, possibly to what's being said in the livecast, possibly just a 'Hi' or 'Thank you'
But there are enough chat participants that the chat history moves up really fast. Taking maybe 5-10 seconds for the visible history to be pushed off screen.
this makes it -very- hard to read
Usually the line you are reading gets bumped up while you're in the middle of the sentence.
It makes the comment thread almost impossible to interact with.
Word of the day: Celtic hand ( In Norway, about 30% of men over 60 years old have the condition, while in the United States about 5% of people are affected at some point in time.)
One can (ok I can) -almost- read very short sentences, but anything longer is impossible to read and digest before the next one comes along.
If you (ok me) try to think of a response with any intelligence, it is way off screen before you can think -and- type a response.
I don't know if there's any solution to my complaint.
I just don't see why people bother to even use it.
17:29
Dupuytren's contracture (also called Dupuytren's disease, Morbus Dupuytren, Viking disease, palmar fibromatosis and Celtic hand) is a condition in which one or more fingers become permanently bent in a flexed position. It is named after Guillaume Dupuytren, who first described the underlying mechanism of action, followed by the first successful operation in 1831 and publication of the results in The Lancet in 1834. It usually begins as small, hard nodules just under the skin of the palm, then worsens over time until the fingers can no longer be fully straightened. While typically not painful, some...
I had always thought that this was associated with the 'sign of benediction':
The hand of benediction, also known as benediction sign or preacher's hand, has been said to occur as a result of prolonged compression or injury of the median nerve at the forearm or elbow.More recently it has been shown that the clinical appearance of a high median nerve palsy is different from the classical hand of benediction or preacher's hand posture pointing finger. In this article "High Median Nerve Paralysis: Is the Hand of Benediction or Preacher's Hand A Correct Sign?" it shows that the hand of benediction or preacher’s hand is incorrectly associated with a high median nerve lesion...
(where the ring and pinkie fingers are turned towards the palm)
but quick googling does not connect them other than that both seem to be pathologies of the hand/wrist (dupuytren for scar tissue in the palm near the ring finger; benediction sign fo ulnar nerve damage near the elbow)
Wordle 657 4/6

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Daily Quordle 438
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m-w.com/games/quordle
Daily Octordle #438
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8️⃣9️⃣
Score: 74
17:46
Word of the day: quotative all. Example usage: the teacher was all, "you should only use this construction in informal contexts."
(A somewhat newer alternative to quotative like.)
18:00
Probably from all like.
18:42
> Brazil’s President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva suggested that Ukraine should be open to the idea of giving up Crimea in exchange for peace with Russia.

“(The Russian President Vladimir Putin) cannot seize the territory of Ukraine. But perhaps we can discuss Crimea. (President Volodymyr Zelensky) cannot want everything… the world needs to calm down," Lula told the media on April 6, Le Figaro reports.
19:21
@alphabet That's giving me use-mention nausea
OMG I always thought she was saying 'Calm down'
Now I nkow
I gotta stop nkowing. It's starting to hurt.
19:50
@Mitch One hand washes the other.
@Mitch Don't be all "I'm upset over this"
I think that is the same all as in "all hot and bothered" and "all up in my grill" and so on. In which case it's kind of an adverb, ne?
I do think these quotatives serve a useful purpose: like direct speech, you don't have to change pronouns and tenses around; like indirect speech, it isn't implied that you're repeating the exact words someone else said
Because the modified phrase is felt as an adjective.
@MattE.Эллен welcome back?
20:00
@Robusto Perhaps related to sentences like: He's one of those "I'm better than everyone else" people
An article on *nt-*reduction in AmE: phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2011/11/winter-and-winner.html
2
From wikipedia: /nt/ can become [ɾ̃], which is also a possible realization of intervocalic /n/, creating a winner-winter merger
20:21
@alphabet Yes.
@Robusto Not to be confused with the prince-prints merger which is a different phenomenon (some also merge bans-bands)
@alphabet I think our streams got crossed.
@Robusto Argh SE doesn't support threads very well
I do agree on the /nt/ -> /n/ issue, though. I have heard continental pronounced "conninennel* more often than I wish to recall.
20:46
@Robusto I have heard apparently pronounced "apparnly" often, and I liked it a lot.
@Vikas She could help the situation by offering a port location in Brazil to Ukraine, along with some adjacent land, to set up a port and a little commercial town. Maybe a military base. A piece of Ukraine on (former) Brazilian soil.
21:35
@Robusto A thief recognizes another.
@alphabet Those aren't universal across all languages? What kind of mouth gymnast can actually articulate /bæn d z/ or /prin t s/? Or (if it turns out that way 'prince' without a /ts/?
@Robusto Wow. 4 syllables. Fancy.
@jlliagre: Is Le diable se marie avec sa fille an idiom describing noisy, inclement weather?
The devil beats his wife
and marries his daughter
@Robusto Oh France.
@CowperKettle I never knew there was a second verse. The first is awful enough.
@CowperKettle I don't get how marrying his daughter is like unruly weather.
Le nozze del diavolo
21:49
@Robusto Maybe the marriage is very stormy. Like, every big procedure that Devil sets out to do, is stormy. But this time, he is marrying his daughter, so it must be really stormy.
Well ...
Like in Bulgakov's novel Master and Margarita, some innocent stuff started out by Devil ends up in a lot of fuss.
Maybe she kinda digs him?
uh
Like when Devil's assistant Behemoth is trying to fix a stove, and instead sets the whole apartment on fire.
So every procedure ends up in some bedlam
21:51
@CowperKettle I got the impression that the cat was really large.
@Mitch Yes
I never knew he had assistants who fix major appliances. That's kinda specific, ne?
you know, because 'behemoth' sounds ... big?
@Robusto That's the devil for ya
But where's the fun in fixing appliances?
@Robusto This was a comic relief assistant, really cool. A talking cat who drinks alcohol and talks a lot.
> "Noblesse oblige," said the cat and poured Margarita some clear liquid into a conical glass.
"Is this vodka?" asked Margarita weakly.
The cat jumped resentfully in his chair.
"Forgive me, my lady," he croaked, "Would I ever allow myself to pour vodka for a lady? This is pure alcohol!"-After Woland's Ball.[2]
21:53
Excuse me, but what cats in Russia don't drink alcohol and talk a lot?
@Mitch This blog post says the merger is more common in AmE, but there's a reason it gets tricky to pronounce them differently: phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2010/08/…
> This saying is based on a mythological tradition that we are going to report, according to a fragment of Plutarch that Eusebius has preserved for us in his Evangelical Preparation (book III, ch. 1). Jupiter was at odds with Juno who was hiding on Mount Cytheron. This god, wandering in the neighborhood, met the sculptor Alalcomène who told him that, to bring her back, he had to deceive her and pretend to marry another.
> The dispute between Jupiter and Juno is an allegory of the struggle between the igneous principle represented by this god, and the humid principle represented by this goddess. When these two principles, not being tempered by each other, have broken the harmony which should reign between them, there is trouble and disorder in the atmospheric regions.
> After this explanation, it is almost superfluous to add that Jupiter who triumphs over the wrath of Juno, or, according to the expression of Plutarch, the igneous principle which shows itself stronger than the moist principle, is the devil who beats his wife , who prevails over his wife, while the same god who makes the wedding of the statue, of which he is the author or the father, is the devil who marries his daughter.
Yes, I was about to posting the same.
Interjection: devil's beating his wife
  1. (Southern US) Said when it rains while the sun is shining; that is, when a sunshower occurs.
I wasn't aware of the expression before though.
22:00
@Robusto I put a lot of effort to make my Behemoth talk. And he only does it occasionaly
@jlliagre I heard it among the generation before me.
I taught him to meow when I make an up and down motion with my head (nodding with more stress on the upward motion)
But he only does that when he needs my attention. Or is feeling like it.
Sometimes he starts meowing and ends up yawning.
@CowperKettle The last couple of clauses do not follow. I don't understand 'makes the wedding of the statue' or what that has to do with being an author or father.
He is by nature very reticent. For instance, when he needs to open a door, he will sit and look at it for several minutes. Only after that he will start scratching the door. And after a very long while he will start meowing.
@Mitch I just cut the most interesting pieces. He does carve out a statue in the original text (Google-translated)
I wonder if there's a Russian novel with kids being stranded alone.
22:30
@CowperKettle 'the wedding of the statue' is ... I don't know what that could mean.
But maybe for the second part, did Jupiter happen to be the father of Juno?
> This archaic custom was explained with an aition or "origin myth" about Hera and Zeus, which is related by Pausanias:

Hera, they say, was for some reason or other angry with Zeus, and had retreated to Euboia. Zeus, failing to make her change her mind, visited Kithairon, at that time despot in Plataea, who surpassed all men for his cleverness. So he ordered Zeus to make an image of wood, and to carry it, wrapped up, in a bullock wagon, and to say that he was celebrating his marriage with Plataia, the daughter of Asopus. So Zeus followed the advice of Kithairon. Hera heard the news at once
In Ancient Greece, the Daedala (Greek: δαίδαλα) was a festival of reconciliation that was held every few years in honor of Hera, consort of the supreme god Zeus at Plataea, in Boeotia, being one of the major cults of the city. According to Pausanias, there was a "lesser Daedala" (Δαίδαλα μικρά), celebrated every four years or so exclusively by the Plataeans, and a "greater Daedala" (Δαίδαλα μεγάλα), celebrated by all of Boeotians every fourteen cycles (approx. 60 years). In the lesser Daedala, the people of Plataea went to an ancient oak grove and exposed pieces of cooked meat to ravens, attentively...
> While to his arms the blushing bride he took,
To seeming sadness she composed her look;
As if by force subjected to his will,
Though pleased, dissembling, and a woman still.
And, for she wept, he wiped her falling tears,
And prayed her to dismiss her empty fears;
"For yours I am,' he said, "and have deserved
Your love much better, whom so long I served,
Than he to whom your formal father tied
Your vows; and sold a slave, not sent a bride.'
(He is seen as dominating the literary life of Restoration England to such a point that the period came to be known in literary circles as the Age of Dryden. Romanticist writer Sir Walter Scott called him "Glorious John")
22:46
@jlliagre Thanks. Now I know!
23:27
@alphabet Divine works by children of a lesser god written divine remain.
Came across another Ukrainian song that looks good. I never listened to this group before.
But I don't understand some of their word usage.
The lyrics seems good.
@jlliagre She was angry "for some reason or another"? How about the fact that Zeus fucked everything that moved?
And if something didn't move, he moved it first, and then fucked it.
That's the issue when you are the God of Gods.
Yeah. I can't say I can relate to that in any way.
My opportunities have been, shall we say, a bit narrower.
Time to dredge this one up again.
From a quarter century ago.
23:51
Word of 5 am: clean and jerk
You never saw any weight lifting?
I saw some on TV
It's that the phrase is odd to the Russian ear.
In Russian, it's tolchok (thrust)
Толчо́к — одно из упражнений тяжелоатлетического двоеборья (другое упражнение — рывок, ранее также — жим). Во время соревнований по тяжёлой атлетике толчок выполняется вторым. Толчок — технически сложное движение, состоящее из двух раздельных составляющих. Сначала атлет отрывает штангу от помоста и, подседая под неё, поднимает её на грудь, затем вытаскивает её руками с груди. Есть 3 техники выталкивания с груди: Выталкивание штанги «в ножницы». «Швунг в стойку» — спортсмен выталкивает с груди штангу, ноги разбрасывает примерно на ширине плеч, садится в полуприсед, затем становится в положение...

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