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Cerberus
Cerberus
12:48 AM
#Worldle #436 1/6 (100%)
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
⭐⭐⭐🏙️🪙
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
1:00 AM
@jlliagre those Saharan countries only punish criminals with strong words and a clout in the ear
It's also very low in Yemen because children don't grow up to even become criminals.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
1:40 AM
I love the smell of stikstof in the morning.
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
1:51 AM
@CowperKettle it's the breakfast stof that's stiking to your pan
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
I don't like the smell of the stinky stuff in the morning.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
Word of the day: congenital melanocytic nevus
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@CowperKettle Then you're lucky to be on Earth, where most of the air is nitrogen.
@CowperKettle That is honestly a bit gross.
Maybe put that behind a link?
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
Okay :)
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Merci.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
2:00 AM
It was removed by surgery, with no ill effects for the boy
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Great.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
2:12 AM
"Family tree", by MidJourney
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
2:32 AM
I suppose it is.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
2:46 AM
 
 
1 hour later…
ʁəʄɘləmɘlə
ʁəʄɘləmɘlə
3:51 AM
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
 
ʁəʄɘləmɘlə
ʁəʄɘləmɘlə
This will ultimately impact all GDPR jurisdictions.
 
Vikas
Vikas
4:47 AM
@tchrist Good article. I read 50% before losing my interest but I got the answer.
In India, some local doctors recommend cow milk when you're sick.
Also cows got a lot of respect here.
 
user2236
user2236
5:09 AM
got get
That particular "got vs get" really sticks out as improper use.
Cows get respect.
The cows got respected.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
5:38 AM
RLV-TD
RLV-TD is India's first uncrewed flying testbed developed for the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO)'s Reusable Launch Vehicle Technology Demonstration Programme. It is a scaled down prototype of an eventual two-stage-to-orbit (TSTO) reusable launch vehicle. The RLV-TD successfully completed its first atmospheric test flight on 23 May 2016, which lasted for 770 seconds and reached a maximum altitude of 65 kilometres (40 mi). It was designed to evaluate various technologies, and development of the final version is expected to take 10 to 15 years. The fully developed RLV is expected to take...
Airdrop experiment successfully completed today.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
6:11 AM
This night, I have a dream in which I was taken prisoner by the Ukrainian army. They did not treat me well. Of course, I never expected to be treated well. In the dream, I felt luckly to have survived.
 
 
2 hours later…
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
7:57 AM
French-English military of the day: hors de combat - (French: [ɔʁ də kɔ̃ba]; lit. 'out of combat') is a French term used in diplomacy and international law to refer to persons who are incapable of performing their combat duties during war.
I don't know whether English speakers pronounce the "m" sound there.
 
 
2 hours later…
jlliagre
jlliagre
9:39 AM
2'45" "Boris Yeltsin was nowhere to be found. He was hors de combat."
 
user 7269591
user 7269591
Thanks 🙏
Warning: sad ending
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
@jlliagre merci!
 
Andrew Leach
Andrew Leach
@CowperKettle Same in British English. And whereas French tends to stress the final syllable, English follows its normal pattern /ˈkɒmbat/
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
9:54 AM
@CowperKettle Hors used to be fors in old French, from the Latin foris (it: fuora, sp: fuera). A famous François Ier's quote is Tout est perdu fors l'honneur (All is lost except honor.)
Apparently a misquotation by the way.
 
Xanne
Xanne
10:13 AM
Daily Octordle #433
🕛🕐
6️⃣5️⃣
🕚7️⃣
🔟8️⃣
Score: 72
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
1631
 
Xanne
Xanne
Daily Octordle #432
🕛5️⃣
7️⃣6️⃣
9️⃣8️⃣
🔟🕚
Score: 68
@jlliagre “except honor” or “for the sake of honor”?
I was watching Travelers on Netflix. It has the usual time-travel problems, good adventure sequences, but most of all appealing, fairly defined characters. One gets to like (or dislike) them. It first aired a few years ago.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
10:37 AM
@jlliagre Oh! Very interesting, thank you!
@Xanne I liked the movie "Frequently Asked Questions About Time Travel", it was campy and fun.
> from Late Latin dē forīs, from Latin dē + forīs (“outdoors”).
foris
Noun: foris f (genitive foris); third declension
  1. door
  2. gate
  3. opening
  4. entrance
  5. Synonyms: ingressus, iānua, initium, līmen, porta, ingressiō, vestibulum
  6. Antonym: abitus
Adverb: forīs (not comparable)
  1. outside, outdoors (location)
  2. Synonyms: foras, extrinsecus
  3. Antonyms: intro, intrā, penitus
> From Proto-Italic *fworis, from Proto-Indo-European *dʰwṓr, from *dʰwer- (“door, gate”).
Cognate with forās, forīs, forum, Sanskrit द्वार् (dvā́r), Ancient Greek θύρα (thúra) and Old English duru and dor (English door).
In Russian, door is dver' (дверь)
In Hindi, door is दरवाजा - daravaaja
> Le Monde has learned that two French volunteers serving in Ukraine had been killed over the past two weeks. Kevin David was killed on March 21 in Bakhmut, and “T” was killed a week ago.
 
Vikas
Vikas
11:16 AM
@CowperKettle 15 years!
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
11:50 AM
@Vikas Yes, a bit long :)
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
@Xanne Hors means except, outside, save. It appears in many French words and expressions: Hors-d'œuvre, hors-bord, hors-série, hors-jeu, hors-service, hors d'usage, hors-la-loi, hors champ, hors norme, hors délai, hors taxe, hors pair, hors piste, hors sol, hors d'état de nuire, also in dehors (outside).
 
alphabet
alphabet
12:13 PM
Sound change of the day: the prince-prints merger, common in AmE: phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2010/08/…
A better minimal pair might be patients/patience. A similar phenomenon can merge bans and bands
 
alphabet
alphabet
12:27 PM
Not to be confused with the winter-winner merger, which is related to t-flapping
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
It there a trump-tramp merger yet?
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
12:57 PM
> Last year, the Netherlands generated 14 per cent of its electricity from solar farms - up from 1 per cent in 2015 - overtaking coal-fired power generation for the first time. euronews.com/green/2023/03/08/…
 
tchrist
tchrist
@CowperKettle Only the Donald is a tramp.
@jlliagre Elena's recent video on H in Spanish mentioned French hors as one example of the F>H thing from Spanish and Gascon happening in French.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
1:15 PM
Life expectancy / Obesity
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
1:40 PM
Good map.
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
2:02 PM
@tchrist Yes, this H is likely of Gascon origin. Hors in hors-d'œuvre and cadet are probably one of the rare examples of Gascon words passed into English.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
My etymological dictionary says cadet is from Provençal?
But it seems Provençal is also used to indicate the whole Occitan language continuum/subfamily.
 
tchrist
tchrist
That may explain it.
When I was a kid, that was common usage: Provençal really meant all things d'oc.
Wouldn't it be lovely if a Gascon cadet were a gasket? :)
> < French cadet, in 15th cent. capdet, < Provençal capdet < Romanic type ✱capitetto, diminutive of Latin caput, capit- head; hence, little chief, inferior head of a family. Compare also cadee n., caddie n., cad n.²
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
2:17 PM
> Gascons capdet ‘hoofd, chef’ < Provençaals capdel < Latijn capitellus ‘hoofdje’, verkleinwoord van caput ‘hoofd’ zie → hoofd, zie ook → cadeau, → kadetje.
 
tchrist
tchrist
TIL we can blame hoodies on the Dutch.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Isn't it funny how these two etymologies conflict on several points?
Is hood from hoed? That would make sense.
 
tchrist
tchrist
@Cerberus "From" is probably too strong a way of putting it, but yes, they're the same word.
I won't attempt formatting this time:
> Etymology: Old English hód strong masculine = Old Frisian hôd , Middle Dutch hoet(d-) , Dutch hoed , Middle Low German hôt , hût , Old High German, Middle High German huot (German hut hat) < Old Germanic hôdo-z , < hôd- , in ablaut relation with *hattus ( < *hadnús ) hat n.(
Cadeaux are gifts. I don't get the connection.
So hood and hoed are like double first cousins.
Maybe siblings.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@tchrist OK then I might as well blame English for hoed?
 
tchrist
tchrist
The distance between Old English and Old Frisian seems to have been quite slight here.
@Cerberus Better to blame our common Middle Low German ancestor, maybe.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
2:24 PM
@tchrist I don't know either, I'll click the link.
> De betekenisontwikkeling in het Frans is gelopen van ‘fraai versierde hoofdletter, versiering’, naar ‘fraaie tekst die wordt aangeboden’ [17e eeuw; Rey] en ‘banket met muziek dat wordt aangeboden aan een dame’ [17e eeuw; Rey], en vandaar naar ‘geschenk’ in het algemeen.
OK that is a devious way.
Hoofdletter makes sense, and the rest is unpredictable.
 
tchrist
tchrist
Random semantic drift.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Quite. Steered by very specific socio-cultural developments.
 
tchrist
tchrist
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
Word of the evening: mirepoix - named after Gaston de Lévis, duc de Mirepoix (1699–1757)
 
tchrist
tchrist
@CowperKettle Gaston ≠ Gascon ≠ Garçon :)
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
2:31 PM
.. ≠ poinçon ≠ soupçon
 
tchrist
tchrist
@CowperKettle ... ≠ sous con
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
Poinçon
Le poinçon est un outil qui a pour fonction de laisser une marque sur une autre pièce (pointeau), ou même de la (poinçonneuse : tôle, cuir, ticket de métro, etc.). Cet instrument est utilisé depuis la préhistoire. On appelle aussi poinçon la marque laissée par cet outil. == Poinçon en imprimerie == En imprimerie traditionnelle à caractères mobiles (celle de Gutenberg), le poinçon est la pièce de métal dur sur laquelle est ciselée la forme du caractère. Ce poinçon est ensuite frappé dans une pièce de cuivre (métal plus mou) qui reçoit donc ce caractère en creux. Cette pièce de cuivre (dite matrice...
 
alphabet
alphabet
Apparently this sentence is valid in BrE (???):
 
tchrist
tchrist
@CowperKettle Bossy seals.
 
alphabet
alphabet
> They phoned immediately they reached home.
 
tchrist
tchrist
2:33 PM
@alphabet They should go to school.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
vs of the day: bevel vs. chamfer
 
tchrist
tchrist
Too early for geometrage.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
Cordiality of the day: aortic root dilatation
 
tchrist
tchrist
> 1669 R. Lower Tractatus de Corde 25 — Fibræ quidem..spirali suo ambitu helicem sive cochleam satis apte referunt.
8
A: What is the origin of the phrase “it warms the cockles of my heart”?

tchrist          Mary, Mary, quite contrary,                     How does your garden grow?           With silver bells, and cockle shells,                     And pretty maids all in a row. For the word itself, the OED gives an etymology that vectors through French, as in the fancy dish called Coqui...

 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
A Confederacy of Dunces
A Confederacy of Dunces is a picaresque novel by American novelist John Kennedy Toole which reached publication in 1980, eleven years after Toole's death. Published through the efforts of writer Walker Percy (who also contributed a foreword) and Toole's mother, Thelma, the book became first a cult classic, then a mainstream success; it earned Toole a posthumous Pulitzer Prize for Fiction in 1981, and is now considered a canonical work of modern literature of the Southern United States.The book's title refers to an epigram from Jonathan Swift's essay Thoughts on Various Subjects, Moral and Diverting...
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
2:37 PM
@tchrist Pas d'explanation.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
A book I started to read, but did not finish.
For lack of time.
It was available for taking-home in the local library, in English.
 
tchrist
tchrist
@Cerberus Lazy sots.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
> Although several people in the literary world felt his writing skills were praiseworthy, Toole's novels were rejected during his lifetime. Due in part to these failures, he suffered from paranoia and depression, dying by suicide at the age of 31.
 
tchrist
tchrist
On dirait pas d’explication, n'est-ce pas?
@jlliagre Always has better French etymological resources at ready.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@tchrist When I wrote it, explanation seemed suboptimal, but I wrote it anyway. So it may very well be wrong. Explication sounds better to my subconscious too.
 
tchrist
tchrist
2:42 PM
In my experience, Romance seems to prefer explications over explanations.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
They prefer removing the fold over flattening it.
 
tchrist
tchrist
Indeed.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Sounds like the same conceptual metaphor anyway.
Whereas elucidation is different.
 
tchrist
tchrist
> plegar
Del lat. plicāre.

Conjug. c. acertar.

1. tr. Hacer pliegues en una cosa. U. t. c. prnl.

2. tr. Doblar e igualar con la debida proporción los pliegos de que se compone un libro que se ha de encuadernar.

3. tr. En el arte de la seda, revolver la urdimbre en el plegador para ponerla en el telar.

4. prnl. Doblarse, ceder, someterse.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
I can only understand 40 % of that, which isn't quite enough.
 
tchrist
tchrist
2:47 PM
To make folds in a thing.
To double and equalize with the required proportion the folds of which a book that's to be bound is composed.
I'm winging this.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@tchrist Yeah I figured that must be what the first sense meant.
Yeah I figured 1 must be to do with book-binding.
 
tchrist
tchrist
The third one, the one about silk art, is the least legible because it has specialists terms you might know only in Dutch not English.
Weaving terms.
The stuff of looms.
Of warp and weft.
Hm, those do seem Germanic enough after all.
A webster was once a female weaver.
As a brewster a female brewer.
urdimbre
Noun: urdimbre f (plural urdimbres)
  1. warp (of the weave)
  2. scheme
There's a verb, urdir
< Latin ordīri.
It means to Preparar los hilos en la urdidera para pasarlos al telar.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@tchrist Probably in neither. Or in English but not Dutch.
@tchrist In Dutcht, weefster and brouwster are still women.
 
tchrist
tchrist
@Cerberus Most of us have lost the language of textile handicrafts.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
We always wonder why -ster is not female in English.
 
tchrist
tchrist
2:56 PM
Well, it certainly was.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Yeah.
Thought perhaps not in barrister.
Where the suffix is probably just -er.
I mean, where there is no suffix -ster present.
 
tchrist
tchrist
At least that was has enough r's in it. Unlike the horrible barista abomination.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Yuck.
 
tchrist
tchrist
I hate it to death.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Yeah.
Portmanteaux are generally ugly, but why?
 
tchrist
tchrist
2:58 PM
People can't tell if it's bared or barred.
@Cerberus Starfucks corporate lingo.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
That is possible.
But those words are often not commercial, are they?
 
tchrist
tchrist
3
Q: How did barista enter the English language?

GioThe Italian term barista (bartender) entered the English language in 1992 and its usage has considerably increased since then according to Google Books: "bartender in a coffee shop," as a purely English word in use by 1992, from Italian, where it is said to derive ultimately from English bar (n....

word-usage american-english british-english loanwords
Pee pulse make cant words hoo cant figger da regler wons out.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Yeah.
I think that's why I hate them: creating portmanteaux suggests ignorance and lack of interest in the workings of one's language.
 
tchrist
tchrist
In this case, it includes complete ignorance of orthographic conventions. Which weakens the same.
Pretty soon we'll all just be mashing the keys together for vryhtng
Barrista would have been tolerable.
Then again, the arrhotic attorneys would have a field day with that one, too.
At work somebody when and named a git repo blahblah-facade.
I refuse to pronounce it façade. If you want me to say that, spell it so it's not a fuckade.
Fassade or something. 
mac(tchrist)% git init naïve-façade
Initialized empty Git repository in /Users/tchrist/naïve-façade/.git/
It's not like you can't do that.
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
@Cerberus Right, what we call Occitan today used to be called Langue d'oc, Roman (among others), Provençal and more rarely Limousin or Gascon depending on the time and the prestige of the dialect. Cadet, especially as a militar term, comes from Gascon, famous for the Cadets de Gascogne.
Cadets de Gascogne
The Cadets de Gascogne, in English the Captains of Gascony, were a French regiment under King Louis XIII. The regiment was mainly recruited from the youngest sons of the aristocratic families of Gascony. The word cadet comes from the occitan gascon capdèth, meaning chief or captain. Nowadays, the word cadet is used in French as an equivalent of younger son. The regiment was apparently considered romantic and swashbuckling, so it appealed to authors; it was used in both Cyrano de Bergerac and the original Three Musketeers by Dumas. Famous members of the regiment included: Savinien Cyrano de Bergerac...
 
tchrist
tchrist
3:13 PM
Nice.
No cadettes? :)
See, we immediately perceive that borrowed -ette suffix as feminine, yet our own -ster has become lost to us. I blame the Duck of Normen.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@tchrist Agreed. I also hate arbitrary violation is basic spelling rules.
Like using capitals inSide words or names.
 
tchrist
tchrist
Yep.
It's just FITH.
Makes me cRinge ever sIngletIme.
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
@tchrist Yes, explanation was obsoleted by explication ia long time ago and is no more present in modern French. Pas d'explication or inexpliqué.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@jlliagre You would use Gascon for all of the langues d'oc?
@tchrist Did I mention that I also hate abbreviations, though for other reasons!
 
tchrist
tchrist
@Cerberus You did.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
3:17 PM
@jlliagre Such things happen to the best languages.
 
tchrist
tchrist
I was trying to help those on a low-salt diet of words.
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
@Cerberus I won't, especially as Gascon is substancially different from the other variants, and more difficult to understand if you known one of them. It might deserve to be considered a distinct language.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
3
Q: Meaning and grammar of ‘ōrātiōnī aspergere salēs’

Canned ManThe phrase ‘ōrātiōnī aspergere salēs’ literally means ‘to sprinkle [grains of] salt on the oration’. The grammar in itself is simple enough: ōrātiōnī: in the dative, presumably because of the verb taking a dative (preposition plus verb: Eitrem § 90: Dativ ved sammensatte verb). aspergere: the ma...

idiom grammar-choice plural
 
tchrist
tchrist
@jlliagre I've heard that proposed. Certainly Gascon and Catalan are quite far apart in many, many, many ways.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@jlliagre OK but the langues d'oc "used to be called" Gascon as well?
I'd expect only the langue(s) d'oc from Gascony to be called Gascon...
 
tchrist
tchrist
3:20 PM
Me too.
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
@Cerberus Catalan was once called LLemosi, so the geographical reference doesn't necessarily strictly apply.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Right.
Is that to do with the Limousin?
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
Precisely.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
> «Llemosí» va ser un terme que es va utilitzar a partir del segle xvi per a designar la llengua catalana
 
tchrist
tchrist
Thus showing how Catalan has a weird periphrastic perfect/preterite, using va ser for fut or some such.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
3:24 PM
I noticed.
Looks more like a future.
 
tchrist
tchrist
Yeah.
That's the weirdness.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Pod ser, va ser.
 
tchrist
tchrist
Va ser is perfectly normal for a future in Castilian.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
I don't know the Portuguese spelling.
Ah, see.
 
tchrist
tchrist
Va ser is also Portuguese for será.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
3:26 PM
(And "maybe" is something like pod ser, isn't it?)
 
tchrist
tchrist
But the Portuguese have another weird thing. They don't use estar falando for the continuous the way the Brazilians or Spanish do.
@Cerberus Yes.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Right.
 
tchrist
tchrist
> In European Portuguese, the gerund is often replaced by the infinitive (preceded by "a") when used to express continuing action.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Sounds like Dutch.
 
tchrist
tchrist
So PtEu Está a falar = PtBr está falando.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
3:28 PM
Hij is aan het praten.
 
tchrist
tchrist
But you still come running or come speaking, etc. You only switch out the gerund for actual progressive periphrastic "tenses", not for normal adverbial use.
The Portuguese seem to make more sendo and yendo clauses than the Spanish do. I'm not sure why.
Being, going.
Where ES yendo = PT indo
Both from ir, which is highly suppletive, but not here.
And PT sendo = ES siendo.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
@tchrist That's right, we would not use aan het praedicatively except with be=zijn.
 
tchrist
tchrist
So "sendo and yendo" incomprehensibly switched languages on the fly.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Hmm.
 
tchrist
tchrist
sendo e indo || siendo y yendo
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
3:38 PM
Fun fact: In addition to base 20 numerals, still present in French quatre-vingts and quatre-vingt-dix, Gascon also has (had?) base 6 numerals.
2
 
tchrist
tchrist
Because the Spanish diphthongize their non-first conjugation gerunds: -ando is first conjugation, but -iendo for the others.
@jlliagre POLYDACTYLS!
If only it were two thumbs and four fingers instead of a thumb and five.
@jlliagre That's really cool.
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
 
tchrist
tchrist
So much for forefinger, middle finger, ring finger, pinky.
Check his feet.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
> As six is a superior highly composite number, many of the arguments made in favor of the duodecimal system also apply to senary.
 
tchrist
tchrist
@jlliagre I'm having flashbacks to the six-fingered man from The Princess Bride.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
3:50 PM
> Senary is also the largest number base r that has no totatives other than 1 and r − 1, making its multiplication table highly regular for its size, minimizing the amount of effort required to memorize its table.
 
Mitch
Mitch
@alphabet Got it... there's a difference between close-mid back rounded and just plain ol' mid back rounded. wikipedia has both but ipachart.ord doesn't have just plain old (which is weird because plain old is marked by a really weird diacritic that I had never been aware of until your post).
Also I can barely tell the difference (if at all). Any difference/minimal pairs in English?
 
tchrist
tchrist
@Mitch Between what? /ow/ and /o/?
No.
There are not.
Ceci n'est pas un phonème.
 
Mitch
Mitch
@Cerberus Nothing compares 2 u
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
> Cardinal numbering in English follows two models, Germanic and Italic. The basic numbers are zero through ten. The numbers eleven through nineteen follow native Germanic style, as do twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, and ninety.
> Standard English, especially in very conservative formal contexts, continued to use native Germanic style as late as World War I for intermediate numbers greater than 20, viz., "one-and-twenty," "five-and-thirty," "seven-and-ninety," and so on.
 
tchrist
tchrist
@Mitch Qué no lo tutees!
 
Mitch
Mitch
3:56 PM
@tchrist Follow the thread. In the wiki diagram there are two 'o's, one 'close' and the other not.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
So, up till 1900 it was common to hear "one and twenty"? Cool.
 
tchrist
tchrist
@Mitch I saw it. It's stupid.
 
Mitch
Mitch
@CowperKettle Where is the Italic part in English numbers?
 
tchrist
tchrist
If you need fancy cryoditics you're making it too hard.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
@Mitch Italic is "twenty-one"
 
tchrist
tchrist
3:58 PM
@Mitch Indians.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
Germanic is "one-and-twenty"
 
tchrist
tchrist
Big or little.
Italian is bigendian.
 
Laurel
Laurel
@tchrist My one brother was born like that actually, but only on one hand. My parents made him get surgery when he was very young tho
 
tchrist
tchrist
German is littlendian.
@Laurel aw!
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
The same Germanic scheme is used in Russian numbers 11 to 19, for instance, 11 is odinnadsat, which means "one-and-ten" (odin-na-dsat)
 
tchrist
tchrist
3:59 PM
 
Laurel
Laurel
Two thumbs like that wouldn't have been useful for counting tho since they were kinda stuck together except for the top part
 
Mitch
Mitch
@CowperKettle Oh. They should say that then. But also I'm skeptical of that claim. Maybe German in the weirdo here and Scandinavian and Gothic and Dutch say 'twenty-one' and in reality Italic is the classic German way.
I'm just writing possible alternative past stories.
@tchrist just for the -ty's
 
tchrist
tchrist
> 𐌰𐍄𐍄𐌰 𐌿𐌽𐍃𐌰𐍂, 𐌸𐌿 𐌹𐌽 𐌷𐌹𐌼𐌹𐌽𐌰𐌼,
𐍅𐌴𐌹𐌷𐌽𐌰𐌹 𐌽𐌰𐌼𐍉 𐌸𐌴𐌹𐌽,
𐌵𐌹𐌼𐌰𐌹 𐌸𐌹𐌿𐌳𐌹𐌽𐌰𐍃𐍃𐌿𐍃 𐌸𐌴𐌹𐌽𐍃,
𐍅𐌰𐌹𐍂𐌸𐌰𐌹 𐍅𐌹𐌻𐌾𐌰 𐌸𐌴𐌹𐌽𐍃,
𐍃𐍅𐌴 𐌹𐌽 𐌷𐌹𐌼𐌹𐌽𐌰 𐌾𐌰𐌷 𐌰𐌽𐌰 𐌰𐌹𐍂𐌸𐌰𐌹.
𐌷𐌻𐌰𐌹𐍆 𐌿𐌽𐍃𐌰𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌰 𐌸𐌰𐌽𐌰 𐍃𐌹𐌽𐍄𐌴𐌹𐌽𐌰𐌽 𐌲𐌹𐍆 𐌿𐌽𐍃 𐌷𐌹𐌼𐌼𐌰 𐌳𐌰𐌲𐌰,
𐌾𐌰𐌷 𐌰𐍆𐌻𐌴𐍄 𐌿𐌽𐍃 𐌸𐌰𐍄𐌴𐌹 𐍃𐌺𐌿𐌻𐌰𐌽𐍃 𐍃𐌹𐌾𐌰𐌹𐌼𐌰,
𐍃𐍅𐌰𐍃𐍅𐌴 𐌾𐌰𐌷 𐍅𐌴𐌹𐍃 𐌰𐍆𐌻𐌴𐍄𐌰𐌼 𐌸𐌰𐌹𐌼 𐍃𐌺𐌿𐌻𐌰𐌼 𐌿𐌽𐍃𐌰𐍂𐌰𐌹𐌼,
𐌾𐌰𐌷 𐌽𐌹 𐌱𐍂𐌹𐌲𐌲𐌰𐌹𐍃 𐌿𐌽𐍃 𐌹𐌽 𐍆𐍂𐌰𐌹𐍃𐍄𐌿𐌱𐌽𐌾𐌰𐌹,
 
Mitch
Mitch
@tchrist How dare you
 
tchrist
tchrist
Amen.
Let 𐌸is be a 𐌸orn in 𐌸y side, Satan.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
4:03 PM
@jlliagre So we have found out the seed of Midjourney's vagaries.
@jlliagre That is weird, do you now anything about the origin of those?
@CowperKettle Yeah and we still say that in Dutch.
And it's actually inconvenient, the Italic style is superior.
 
tchrist
tchrist
A Blinken had force core.
 
Mitch
Mitch
The optimal base for counting is.... base e. (~ 2.718)
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
However, Latin also has tredecim, duodeviginti, etc.
Greek hendeka.
 
Mitch
Mitch
It's the most efficient entropically.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
So is it really Germanic?
 
tchrist
tchrist
4:07 PM
@Mitch It lacks integrity.
 
Cerberus
Cerberus
Or what is it?
 
Mitch
Mitch
@tchrist 9 fingers, ignore (or cut off) a bit of one nonit.
You're already missing a thumb so what's a little more.
@tchrist It's very natural
 
tchrist
tchrist
Sing a song of sixpence a pocket full of rye,
Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie.
When the pie was opened the birds began to sing,
Oh wasn't that a dainty dish to set before the king?

The king was in his counting house counting out his money,
The queen was in the parlour eating bread and honey
The maid was in the garden hanging out the clothes,
When down came a blackbird and pecked off her nose.
Blackbirds meaning robins, of course, not ortolans.
Turdus.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
4:24 PM
In a St. Pete caffee owned by "military" Prigozhin, the famous "military blogger" Vladlen Tatarsky has been assassinated. A young woman gave him a statuette as a gift, and shortly after it exploded.
Moment of explosion on observation cameras t.me/bbbreaking/151991
The aftermath: t.me/bazabazon/16696
Hm. Looks like a big statuette. Maybe the preliminary reports are not quite true.
Vladlen Tatarsky's Telegram channel has 500 000 subscribers.
His avowed goal was "the destruction of Ukraine, as it exists now"
15 people have been injured.
I'm afraid that this night there will be a large-scale rocket attack on Ukraine.
Or the next night.
This is Vladlen Tatarsky in Kremlin, during the official gala on the day of admission of DNR and LNR into Russia.
He said on camera "This is all. We'll conquer everyone, kill everyone, we'll rob everyone we need to rob, everything will be as we wish".
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
4:43 PM
@Cerberus Unfortunately no. The only source I found is a single page referenced in Wikipedia, now only surviving in the Internet Archive and similar. It's slight. I probably shouldn't have used the word "fact". It might only be similar to counting by dozens, still common in some eggy contexts.
 
alphabet
alphabet
5:07 PM
@Mitch The difference is only phonetic, not phonemic; there are no minimal pairs. To me the recordings on Wikipedia actually do sound quite different, with [o̞] being how I pronounce "goat" and the like. Hence my feeling like ipachart.com was missing one of my vowel sounds.
(I think my pronunciation of the "goat" vowel is usually [o̞], sometimes [o̞ʊ̯]; Wiki says the AmE /oʊ/ is [o̞ʊ̯~ʌʊ̯~ɔʊ̯~o̞].)
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
Photo made minutes before the explosion
 
alphabet
alphabet
(General American that is, yours may be different.)
 
tchrist
tchrist
5:34 PM
@alphabet Yes, I usually have monophthongal /o/ except at the end of the word. No and bow and such.
It's just something that happens to all close vowels. We add some glide to them if they show up at the end.
aj, ej, ij, ow, (j)uw
I'm being generous with aj. :)
And avoiding fussy fuzzy Tai-Ping.
You never need to specify it in the phonemic representation needed to teach native speakers how to say something. Foreigners of course can't use these.
 
alphabet
alphabet
@tchrist Interesting!
 
tchrist
tchrist
Because they don't understand the required phonological and phonetic affects that apply to our phonemes. That's why they have "a foreign accent".
@alphabet It's common in the Lake Superior / Lake Michigan dominated world, and elsewhere.
It's there's any W in story, it pertains more to the R than to the O.
 
alphabet
alphabet
Same source says GA /ʊ/ is often [ʊ̞], which may explain why the IPA chart recordings of [ʊ] don't sound like how I'd pronounce the "put" vowel.
 
tchrist
tchrist
I've never believed that words like no and row and sew end with the vowel of put and hood. They don't.
I had this guy as professor for a couple classes in college. Once you could say his name "correctly" in Spanish, you will have learned the difference. :)
Carlos Bousoño
Carlos Bousoño Prieto (9 May 1923 – 24 October 2015) was a Spanish poet and literary critic. His work is frequently associated with the post-Spanish Civil War literary group. Bousoño was a recipient of both the National Prize for Spanish Literature and the Prince of Asturias Award for Literature. == Biography == Bousoño was born in Boal, Asturias in 1923.When he was two years old, his family moved to Oviedo, where he completed the first two years of a Philosophy and Arts degree. He moved to Madrid when he was 19, graduating from the Central University (now known as Complutense) with the...
 
alphabet
alphabet
5:56 PM
@tchrist Yeah, I think this is part of Geoff Lindsey's point in his whole "English diphthongs are actually glides" video
 
tchrist
tchrist
Yeah.
I don't know any North American who pronounces story with the vowel of straw and thought.
If I had, it would have stuck in my craw, I would have noticed it so much. :)
Where I'm from, stow and store and story have pretty much the same vowel throughout.
Bit of a glide at the end of the first one, which sounds "foreign" if you skip it.
> They stole the language from us. We spoke and corresponded with you in the language of great Russian literature. Now, for the whole world, Russian is the language of those who bomb Ukrainian cities and kill children, the language of war criminals, the language of murderers.
> Do dictators and dictatorships breed slave populations or do slave populations breed dictators? Ukraine was able to escape from this hellish circle, to escape from our common, monstrous, bloody past. For this reason it is hated by Russian impostors. A free and democratic Ukraine can serve as an example for the Russian population, which is why it is so important for Putin to destroy you.
 
alphabet
alphabet
6:16 PM
Incidentally: I refuse to believe that "poor," "pour," and "pore" can be pronounced as anything other than homophones. Wikipedia seems to think that some accents pronounce "poor" differently.
I definitely get that "tour" and "tore" are only homophones for some speakers. But "poor" and "pore"?
 
tchrist
tchrist
He who poohs.
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
Xinnie?
 
tchrist
tchrist
The Home Counties accent has poo + ah there.
puwa
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
@CowperKettle wow, that poster is very . . . Immature?
 
tchrist
tchrist
@alphabet You really can never trust anything an R-dropper says about English vowels. It never applies to how non-droppers speak.
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
6:21 PM
The inconceivably frank thug?
 
tchrist
tchrist
@M.A.R. Immature posters are common in college dorm rooms.
Also, psychedelic ones.
BLACK lights.
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
@tchrist that guy looked like he spent his nights drawing skulls listening to heavy metal while waiting in the lobby of some shooter game to bully 12-yo's.
But I suppose it isn't good to speak ill of the dead
 
tchrist
tchrist
Grateful.
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
I'd have some gratefroop juice
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
@CowperKettle When I visit a foreign city, I often try to bring back a "cultural souvenir." Here is what I brought back from Saint Petersburg:
Its back side makes sense today:
 
alphabet
alphabet
6:30 PM
On the other hand: some people seem to pronounce "tour" with some weird sound that I can't quite reproduce. Hrm.
 
tchrist
tchrist
6:45 PM
@alphabet They do. They confuse me.
 
alphabet
alphabet
Collins has this odd pronunciation.
 
tchrist
tchrist
Collins ALWAYS has awed pronunciations!
It's what they do. It never makes any sense.
You can't have a lax vowel before R in American English, and why they've bisyllablificated it I have no infernal idea.
That crudola is useless to us.
Take the word took. Keep its vowel, but now replace the final stop with the word were. I find that next to impossible to say.
But I have an "Inland North" accent. It's not how we talk, or even how we hear.
Everything in Collins is arrant nonsense like that from our point of view. Does more harm than good.
I think it's because you must never trust an R-dropper.
And their editas wuh pwobaby ah-dwawppas.
Not to be confused with eye-droppers.
Except for in the hopelessly deep south.
 
alphabet
alphabet
The Collins sound seems to be halfway between [tor] and [tuɚ]. If I listen to it over and over it seems to switch back and forth.
 
tchrist
tchrist
Life is short.
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
Next Tour [tuʁ] will start from Bilbao, Basque country.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
6:59 PM
@jlliagre Nice :)
> I'm gonna make him a blessing he can't refuse.
 
jlliagre
jlliagre
No cigar.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
7:36 PM
The Telegram channel of DSRG Rusich, a small nationalistic military unit, reacted to the death of Vladlen Tatarsky thus: ".. this means that we should kill as many as possible of these Khokhol (slur for "Ukrainian") Judeo-swines, without regard to their sex and age.."
About Rusich:
Rusich Group
The Sabotage Assault Reconnaissance Group (DShRG) "Rusich" (Russian: Диверсионно-штурмовая разведывательная группа «Русич», romanized: Diversionno-shturmovaya razvedyvatel'naya gruppa «Rusich») is a Russian far-right or Neo-Nazi paramilitary unit that has been fighting against Ukrainian forces in the Russo-Ukrainian War. Its co-founder and leader is Alexey Milchakov and it is part of the Wagner Group. "Rusich" fought on the side of pro-Russian separatists in the Donbas war from June 2014 to July 2015, and in the Russian invasion of Ukraine alongside Russian troops. == History == The foundations...
I don't know whether they really play a part in this war, because they are on the far-right fringe.
Alexey Milchakov
Alexey Milchakov (Russian: Алексей Мильчаков, born 30 April 1991 in St. Petersburg) is a Russian neo-Nazi, suspected war criminal and co-leader and co-founder of the DShRG Rusich of the Wagner Group. He is as of 2022 sanctioned by the United States, the European Union, the United Kingdom, Canada and other countries. He has been linked to atrocities in both Syria and Ukraine, and has been described as "the symbol of Russian neo-Nazis fighting in the Donbass". == Biography == He was born in Leningrad (now St. Petersburg). Milchakov calls himself a fan of FC Zenit. === Animal abuse === Mil...
Alexey Milchakov is crazy in his head.
He is infamous for posting a video in which he killed a dog (or a cat, I don't remember) while he was young.
> In a 2020 video, Milchakov described himself as a "Nazi", stating: "I'm not going to go deep and say, I'm a nationalist, a patriot, an imperialist, and so forth. I'll say it outright: I'm a Nazi."[
I would not use this scum in the war; their Telegram statements maybe just making a show.
 
Lambie
Lambie
The Collins has two pronunciations basically, one British (tɔː) and American (tʊr). I am not sure of the writing, but clicking on them, they sound right to me. Not weird at all. What is different is the Video of that guy saying it, which sounds like a regional accent which I cannot identify off the bat.
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
7:51 PM
@CowperKettle so are they Judeo-swines or nazis?
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
@M.A.R. Good question.
 
CowperKettle
CowperKettle
8:51 PM
 
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