English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

16:00

And it would be immediately retracted. sigh

C'est la vie.

ЯegDwight

@Cerberus yeah you'd be meddling with his affairs. A no-no.

cornbread ninja

Cerberus

nods

cornbread ninja

mah kitteh

Cerberus

Cute!

ЯegDwight

16:01

nais

Cerberus

And grabbable.

cornbread ninja

watch out, she's fully clawed.

Cerberus

I can handle her.

cornbread ninja

You're just gonna sniff her butt.

Cerberus

I know how to read cat.

No I wouldn't!

cornbread ninja

16:02

one moar

Cerberus

Aww.

She's half black.

Her mother been cruising the wrong neighbourhoods, huh.

cornbread ninja

Two-face.

Cerberus

Yeah!

It's funny how many patterns there are, and nobody cares, least of all the cat itself.

But I have to go.

cornbread ninja

:(

Have a nice... time

Cerberus

Yeah, have to go admire a friend's new house and boyfriend.

cornbread ninja

16:07

oh my!

Cerberus

I haven't seen her in months.

And I don't even know his name.

cornbread ninja

Don't steal her boyfriend!

Cerberus

But we'll see.

cornbread ninja

In Paris?

Cerberus

Haha nope, Amsterdam.

cornbread ninja

16:08

OIC

tchrist

Oh gosh, the Hobbit trailer comes in five different flavors of ending.

Cerberus

Okay bai!

ЯegDwight

@tchrist what an unexpected journey!

cornbread ninja

bai!

ЯegDwight

This is the worst case of BSing I've seen in quite some time.

"Create your own version" to mean "Select from these five".

tchrist

16:15

Ayup. I think we can add moviemakers to lawyers and politicians who walk into the room with: “Hello,” he lied.

ΜετάEd

0

Q: Understanding 'Procuration'

After reading this Wikipedia article about Procuration, I'm still confused. Here's what I want to know: What does the author mean by 'phrase per procurationem is ambiguous if used with undeclinable English names' If I sign a letter on behalf of someone, is this protocol acceptable? Sincerely,...

correspondence

Off topic.

ЯegDwight

I gotta run. See you on the other side.

Marthaª

xkcd keeps crashing my browser. But I've found the right edge.

ΜετάEd

@Marthaª Have you looked at the PDF?

Marthaª

Is there a mirrored copy somewhere? The one that's linked from various places has exceeded its bandwidth.

KitFox

16:44

Stupid file not found error. If the file isn't found, then why are you working, huh?

Jez

<-- getting a bit excited about writing a theme and extension for Seamonkey to make it look and behave like Firefox 3

trouble is i have bugger all spare time to do it!

ΜετάEd

@Marthaª I got a copy, evidently before that happened because I did not use a mirror.

tchrist

0

Of late I have noticed British people using the following sort of construct: John and Jane make such a cute couple because John always wears a similar hat to Jane. To my ear, that is ungrammatical, or at least nonsensical, because John seems to have mistaken his wife for a hat! John’s hat ...

american-english british-english possessive comparison

The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat

The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat and Other Clinical Tales is a 1985 book by neurologist Oliver Sacks describing the case histories of some of his patients. The title of the book comes from the case study of a man with visual agnosia. The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat became the basis of an opera of the same name by Michael Nyman, which premiered in 1986. The book comprises twenty-four essays split into four sections which each deals with a particular aspect of brain function such as deficits and excesses in the first two sections (with particular emphasis on the right hemisph...

Matt Эллен

17:12

gah! I can't use the BNC.

KitFox

gah! I forgot to check my backup.

cornbread ninja

gah! you got your peanut butter in my balrog.

ΜετάEd

@cornbreadninja You got your balrog in my peanut butter.

KitFox

I wonder how @aedia is doing. I haven't seen her in months.

Cornbread filled up her spot nicely.

But I still miss her.

What was I doing now?

cornbread ninja

@ΜετάEd I feel like we've been here before.

@KitFox !0_0!

Have you still not heard anything from her? :(

Matt Эллен

17:27

@KitFox checking you back up

KitFox

@cornbreadninja Not recently. I could write to her, I suppose...

@MattЭллен Well, I checked it, but it hadn't backed up. And so oops. Too late.

Which is uncharacteristic of me.

Matt Эллен

indeed

but you've made one now!

thavan

hello everyone

KitFox

I was thinking of aedia because I hadn't yet checked my colors.

Matt Эллен

hello

KitFox

17:29

Hello.

Matt Эллен

although, I don't speak for everyone

@KitFox of course

cornbread ninja

hello!

KitFox

Oh, I can do that. &c: hello @thavan.

Matt Эллен

:D

thavan

When we sending a email, when we use

Hi,

Hello,

Matt Эллен

17:32

I use Hello for when I'm addressing an unknown customer services person. Hi for friends and colleagues.

KitFox

Same here.

Matt Эллен

brb, cooking

thavan

ok. If someone is my colleague and I don't that person. I mean he is unknown to me... what will use hi or hello?

KitFox

@thavan Hello.

Usually. Unless you want to appear very friendly.

If I were emailing a colleague that I didn't know personally to invite them to the office lunch, I would probably say "Hi" but if I were emailing to ask them to join a committee, I would probably use "Hello."

"Hi" is more social, "hello" is more formal.

thavan

i'm copying the question again. I missed some words... "ok. If someone is my colleague and I don't know that person. I mean he is unknown to me... what will use hi or hello?"

KitFox

17:40

5 mins ago, by KitFox

@thavan Hello.

thavan

mm... Do you say it is depends on known or unknown people. not related the work relationship?

TRiG

@tchrist I really must get around to reading that book one day.

Carlo_R.

Hello everyone. I am come back.

TRiG

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/round_tuit

KitFox

@thavan Yes and no. Saying "hi" is familiar, so sometimes even with strangers you might use "hi" if you want to seem friendly.

"Hello" is always a safe bet, but I doubt you'd offend anyone by using "hi" when it would be more common to say "hello."

You'd use "hi" with your friends, family, co-workers, etc, also generally with contemporaries, even if you've just met.

So if my friend introduced his girlfriend, I'd probably say "hi" rather than "hello."

Hello @Carlo.

thavan

17:46

@KitFox thanks.

KitFox

But both are pretty common. If you are in doubt, use "hello."

@thavan Does that help at all, or just make it more confusing?

thavan

I said to my girlfriend that "I want to have sex with you". She said, Actually, She was doing MS in united states, Don't say that "I want have sex with you", say "I wan't to make love with you"

making love, having sex, what is the difference?

@KitFox yes, it really helped me...

KitFox

@thavan Usually you make love to somebody. It's considered a more romantic way of saying "having sex."

You can have sex with any partner, but you make love to someone special.

thavan

But "having sex" is not vulgar right?

KitFox

No, not vulgar.

thavan

17:57

@KitFox ok

Mitch

@thavan not vulgar exactly but a bit blunt.

Robusto

18:22

@KitFox Even friendlier than saying "hi" to strangers is having sex with them.

cornbread ninja

@tchrist

tchrist

Eh?

cornbread ninja

or anyone, I have a UNIX question

Robusto

Gah. I think I'll take a walk.

cornbread ninja

@Robusto may you find a friendly stranger.

There's an exercise I've tried, but I'm not sure I did it right (aside from the fact that it works).

"Write a crafty script called ghoul that is difficult to kill; when it receives a SIG-INT (from a ctrl-C), it should create a copy of itself before dying. Thus, every time an unwary user tries to kill a ghoul, another ghoul is created to take its place. Of course, ghoul can still be killed by a SIGKILL (-9) signal.

So I have:

$ cat ghoul.sh
#!/bin/sh
x=1
trap 'echo Control-C; cp ghoul.sh ghoul; exit 1' 2
while [ $x -eq 1 ]
do
echo I am a ghoooooul
sleep 2
done
$ ghoul.sh
I am a ghoooooul
I am a ghoooooul
I am a ghoooooul
^CControl-C
$

But I feel like I was supposed to use a variable to make the new ghoul.

Gigili

18:27

Wow, I thought ghoul was a Persian word.

tchrist

So all it should do is copy it, not start a new version?

That seems less than impressive.

cornbread ninja

Indeed.

tchrist

I should have thought it would fork a background copy.

cornbread ninja

blanches

I have provided the text of the exercise.

tchrist

What is your question?

cornbread ninja

18:28

Aside from it working, did I do what was asked?

tchrist

Wait.

No, I don't think so.

You should start up another copy of the running program, not copy the file. Copy the process.

cornbread ninja

OIC

as in, get the PID

tchrist

The easiest way is to do "ghoul &" or some such.

cornbread ninja

no

tchrist

Probably not.

I would just call the same script as $0 again in the bg.

cornbread ninja

18:30

brb unixing

tchrist

If that makes sense.

cornbread ninja

erm, sort of

tchrist

Can you imagine how much nastier the Stooperuser chatters would be to you?

David Wallace

So, I've finally weighed in on the who / whomever debate. For my sins. I should be put up against a wall and shot, no doubt.

cornbread ninja

shrug

why wouldn't I ask in UNIX/Linux chat instead?

now it say end of file unexpected

#!/bin/sh
x=1
trap 'echo Control-C; ghoul &; exit 1' 2
while [ $x -eq 1 ]
do
echo I am a ghoooooul
sleep 2
done

oh, snap

no, that didn't work

David Wallace

18:33

@Gigili Arabic, I believe (etymonline.com/…)

cornbread ninja

@DavidWallace thanks; I was gonna have a look-see myself.

@DavidWallace or feathered into

David Wallace

Feathered?

cornbread ninja

> This used to carry a fairly murderous connotation, having gotten its start back in the days when the English long bow was the ultimate word in destructive power. Back then if you drew your bow with sufficient strength to cause your arrow to penetrate your enemy up to the feathers on its shaft, you had feathered into him.

from wvculture.org/history/journal_wvh/wvh30-2.html

David Wallace

I had a friend who wanted to write a compression algorithm called "feather", just so that he could say that he would "tar and feather" his programs for distribution.

cornbread ninja

ha!

Gigili

18:36

Haha?

David Wallace

But I had always assumed it meant coating the victim in feathers, rather than shooting him/her with an arrow.

Which is kind of silly, thinking about it.

cornbread ninja

You might could die from a substantial feather-coating.

Your skin needs to breathe.

Think of the guy who played the Tin Man.

great, I've run tchrist off

David Wallace

It's like - OK, we can send you to the electric chair, we can hang you from the gallows, give you a lethal injection, or we can coat you in feathers. You choose.

cornbread ninja

@DavidWallace :D

David Wallace

@cornbreadninja Can you let me know how, for future reference?

cornbread ninja

18:39

@DavidWallace ask him an inane, entry-level UNIX question. ^_^

Gigili

I think I'll go to sleep rather than talking to you boring people.

KitFox

God damned users.

4

I send an Excel file, they send back a Numbers file.

cornbread ninja

@Gigili re-blanches

KitFox

HTF am I supposed to open that?

cornbread ninja

Izzat some apple thing?

David Wallace

18:39

@Gigili You're so nice.

@cornbreadninja Good to know. Thanks.

cornbread ninja

Isn't it only about 8PM in Gigili land?

David Wallace

checks armpits - must be me. She's gone.

Marthaª

@KitFox Bilge rats, the lot of 'em.

KitFox

@Marthaª Scurvy dogs. I should toss them out the scuppers.

TRiG

7

Q: How blundererous are spelling and sentence mistakes when writing to your boss?

I often write to my boss (Director) to report the changes that I make to the software. These changes could be new functionality or enhancing the existing features. My problem is, I make spelling mistakes quite often. Sometime just a couple and sometimes the sentence is a bit wrong because while p...

boss projects email

Isn't blundererous a wonderful word?

(I suspect it has an extra er in it, though.)

KitFox

18:46

Yes, I like that.

Marthaª

On another note, Her Majesty still hasn't replied to my email. If I have to spring for overnight shipping because she can't be bothered to answer a simple question, I will not be a happy scribe. Can a I post a question about how to politely tell off royalty? :/

KitFox

Yes.

On Etiquette.SE

Unless you frame it as "what is the present formal of the verb "fuck"?"

TRiG

@KitFox Zamzar.com?

Marthaª

@KitFox Eh, that's no fun. I hate having to sign up for yet another site just to ask a question. (It's what I like least about the whole SE system.)

TRiG

@Marthaª Signing up on new SE sites is fairly quick and painless for me.

KitFox

18:49

@TRiG Oh no, I don't play that game. I sent it back to her and told her she needed to fix it.

TRiG

@KitFox Whether that works depends on how computer-literate the person you're dealing with is.

KitFox

@TRiG If they're literate enough to change it to Numbers, they are literate enough to change it back.

And I got it back already in xls.

Marthaª

Hungarian has a whole class of curses that aren't really curses at all. "Azt a kutyafáját" = "that wood of the dog", that sort of thing. Some people can get quite poetic about it. (Kinda like Shakespearean insults, come to think of it.) But I think Avelina would get hopelessly confused if I wrote her something like that.

KitFox

Not a very bright queen, eh?

Marthaª

Oh, she's bright enough - she is/was a herald, after all - but something about wearing a pointy hat makes people lose brain cells.

@TRiG It's not the signing up that's a problem, it's the keeping track after that.

TRiG

18:54

@Marthaª True. I do now have a ridiculous number of SE accounts, many of them on sites I've visited only once or twice.

@Marthaª How would you use that in context? Is it an insult? Or something you'd yell when you hit your thumb with a hammer?

Marthaª

@TRiG The latter, at least in this case. Similarly for "azt a mennydörgős rézangyalát" = "that thundering brass angel". But "le van szarvasbőrrel takarva" is basically a minced oath for "le van szarva" = "it has been crapped on".

tchrist

My goodness but this fellow does ramble:

1

It isn't just BrE speakers who produce this kind of unclear English. AmE speakers have been doing it for decades -- and probably centuries as well. It's not fit for formal writing simply because it's nonsense. "A similar hat to Jane" isn't the same as "a hat similar to Jane": the latter has meani...

I suspect he will piss off the Brits, though.

Even more than I seem to have done. Damn it.

I didn’t intend that.

TRiG

@tchrist The logician in me screams that a hat similar to Jane would look rather odd, but then I remind myself that language doesn't have to be logical.

4

(That's just from reading the title. Off to read the full thing now.)

KitFox

But it's not a hat similar to Jane. It's a similar hat to Jane.

cornbread ninja

> You got slapped for being a peevish pedant and everyone else was told that speakers are sloppy, oral English is often elided in the extreme, the structure is more than 150 years old (documented), and the nonsense that it represents is unimportant because Jane isn't a hat unless you have a special kind of brain damage (interpolation).

yow.

Marthaª

19:03

@tchrist I agree with Kit & Andrew Leach: this is just ellipsis.

tchrist

Isn’t that something?

cornbread ninja

'tis

Robusto

@TRiG It's positively blunderful.

tchrist

It is very hard to find in American writers, and very easy to find in British ones. If the ranter is right that it is only 150 years old, it may be a fashion that never caught on in America.

> It's not fit for formal writing simply because it's nonsense.

I did manage to find examples in formal writing, finally.

But his statement is . . . not meant to win friends.

TRiG

@tchrist True, dat.

tchrist

19:07

@Marthaª So you think it is an ellipsis for a leading “that of”, to supply the apostrophe-s context?

Robusto

@tchrist How does "a hat similar to Jane" have meaning, I wonder. Colorless green hats sleep with Jane furiously.

tchrist

@Robusto None of those make sense to me. Look at the four examples.

Robusto

@TRiG Languages don't have to be logical, but expressions using them ought to be.

KitFox

@Robusto It's not "a hat similar to Jane."

tchrist

In the first, Mr Malcolm has become a disability!

KitFox

19:09

It is "a similar hat to Jane."

Robusto

@KitFox He says in his answer "a hat similar to Jane."

Whatever. it's still gobbledygook.

tchrist

> In consultation, our members observed that other people with a similar disability to Mr Malcolm — perhaps with varying degrees of severity — would have been able to understand the sub-letting regulations.

Marthaª

@tchrist Ellipsis is inherently sloppy. Insert whatever words are needed to make yourself grammatically happy.

KitFox

All of the examples that are given have the similar prior to the noun.

It is an important difference.

tchrist

I had a similar dream to @Robusto. Hm.

Very weird.

KitFox

19:10

\And everyone keeps putting it after the noun and saying "well, how does that make sense?" Well, no one said that!

It's making me quite irritable.

Marthaª

@KitFox Really, you don't say?

tchrist

> Dave had a similar accent to dumper truck man, so that’s who I thought it was.

How could he have an accent that was similar to dumper truck man?

Is dumper truck man an accent?

KitFox

Dave was similar to dumper truck man.

tchrist

> Auroville’s two or three thousand inhabitants, most of whom live in similar style to André . . .

KitFox

Because of his accent.

tchrist

19:12

And now André is a style.

Not a person.

Marthaª

OK, off to the post office. The address is Pikestaff better be correct, because that's where the scroll is going, because Her Majesty can't be bothered to reply to emails.

KitFox

The inhabitants were similar to Andre via their style.

tchrist

Makes no sense.

KitFox

You are the one who makes no sense.

Carlo_R.

Hi @tchrist, congratulations for your today question? I upvoted.

tchrist

19:13

Yes Mistress. Anything you say Mistress. I is wrongester.

Mitch

argh...repeating them over and over I can't tell anymore which sounds right and which one's not. "similar hat to Jane" sounds wrong but "similar accent to that man" sounds OK

tchrist

@Mitch What about the others?

Mitch

"similar style to Andre" sounds sort of OK

KitFox

Dave and the dumper truck man had similar accents.

Mitch

(but didn't before; I was in total agreement with you before, but now some might pass just fine. I can't tell if it is the examples or if tehy become acceptable by saying them over and over again)

tchrist

19:15

> A second horseman wears a very similar hat to that of the Magus, but rather less grand, and he wears blue and white mi-parti with pink hose so that his dress is virtually a replica of the donor's, though there is no facial resemblance.

American author.

KitFox

How can that be? Now the dumper truck man is an accent?

tchrist

> I noticed that he was wearing a similar hat to last time, but not as pretty.

British author.

Mitch

@KitFox yeah that's what it means but saying it the other way, actually that doesn't sound terrible.

tchrist

They are doing something really weird.

KitFox

@Mitch This is what I'm saying.

TRiG

19:16

@KitFox I was taught that via should be used in a geographical sense only.

(I actually tend to not use it at all.)

Carlo_R.

@TRG no, you are wrong.

tchrist

> She wore a similar hat to the girls and a healthy scowl.

Robusto

@TRiG Then you've been wasting your life.

Mitch

But 'dumper truck man'? To take this all in a different irection, shouldn't it be 'dump truck man'? 'dumper truck man sounds like he had an accident in his pants.

tchrist

> On one ofthe nearby rooftops stood a Nazi officer, wearing the armor of the infantry, but he had a similar hat to the chancellor, instead of the helmet.

TRiG

19:17

@Carlo_R. Hang on a minute. The claim I made was absolutely and indisputably correct.

tchrist

All very castamucky.

Mitch

@TRiG what do you use for non-geographical senses?

KitFox

So we have a huge corpus of examples demonstrating that tchrist is confused about something.

Mitch

@tchrist well, now you've gone and done it.

Carlo_R.

@TRiG we sent the letter via fax

tchrist

19:18

No, we have a bunch of British examples that are ungrammatical in American English.

TRiG

@Mitch There's rarely a need to use the word at all. In a geographical sense, by way of works fine. That can also be used non-geographically, or the sentecne can be reworded.

KitFox

@tchrist According to you. I can understand it just fine.

TRiG

@Carlo_R. The claim I made was I was taught X. That claim is correct. I was indeed taught X.

Mitch

@tchrist I would have formerly said so, but a couple of the examples seem to work for me. the ones with 'accent' and 'style'.

TRiG

I never said that X was correct.

tchrist

19:19

@KitFox What is wrong with you lately? You are mean.

TRiG

@tchrist But that's the way we like it. Rawwr.

tchrist

What part of the moderator agreement covers meanness?

KitFox

How is that mean? And how is that different than you normally perceive me?

TRiG

(Sorry.)

@Carlo_R. We sent the letter by fax.

Carlo_R.

@TRiG don't worry

tchrist

19:21

You used to be fun and pleasant. Now you seem to go out of your way to say harsh things to me for no reason.

KitFox

That's in your head, not mine.

tchrist

It is insulting.

Carlo_R.

I know, via is questionable whenever a simple preposition would suffice

TRiG

Generally, when via is used to describe a method, it can be substituted with by. And, generally, that substitution is a good thing. It makes the sentences simpler.

tchrist

No.

Carlo_R.

19:22

@TRiG I said that

TRiG

@Carlo_R. That's probably where the advice I got came from.

@Carlo_R. Yeah. While I was typing. And I hadn't noticed till after I sent my comment.

tchrist

43 mins ago, by KitFox

God damned users.

Nice one.

Carlo_R.

@TRiG hello, you are wolcome :)

tchrist

13 mins ago, by KitFox

It's making me quite irritable.

This seems a problem.

KitFox

So what's your hypothesis there @tchrist?

You think the fact that a user sends me a numbers file when I expected an xls file has to do with me getting irritated that everyone was misquoting the examples you gave?

tchrist

19:25

You’re ornery, and you are taking it out on people who do not deserve your High Wrath.

Carlo_R.

@tchrist and KitFox I do not understand almost nothing, but your discussion seems over the line. Calm down!

tchrist

I refuse to argue with you.

Period.

Carlo_R.

Well Period is a good word

I have doubt.

On the verb "to be"

KitFox

It's highly irregular.

Carlo_R.

Can I say "I believe to be agree with you"

KitFox

19:28

You can, but it sounds funny.

Carlo_R.

@Kit thanks.

KitFox

"I believe I am in agreement with you." or "I believe I agree with you."

Carlo_R.

@Kit super thanks!

@Kit Have you seen David Wallace?

KitFox

@Carlo_R. Just now?

Carlo_R.

Yes.

KitFox

19:30

Well, he's here. I don't remember talking to him though. Maybe while I was coding.

Carlo_R.

Yesterday I ask him on the situation in NZ. I hope DW return

@Kit Today I worked on the new proposal IL&U. I hope it go in beta.

KitFox

Great. Good luck with it.

Carlo_R.

Thanks, actually there are circa 80 followers, but it circa 30 question with a score of 10 or more.

It lack ..

20% of followers are from ELU

Bbl i m going on ilu

Robusto

> Believing I had supernatural powers, I slammed into a brick wall.

0

Q: 'I thought to myself' vs 'I thought.'

Is there any need for the ending of 'to myself'? How is it different from the alternative? Can you always replace 'I thought to myself' with 'I thought'?

meaning word-choice idioms

Doesn't anyone ask interesting questions anymore?

KitFox

You could, if you wanted to.

Robusto

19:46

@KitFox What's the point?

KitFox

To prove that you can.

:-þ

tchrist

@Robusto Look! It’s a Cat in a Hat!

> Children's author Dr. Seuss gave a similar hat to the Cat in The Cat in the Hat, to similar effect.

Just teasing.

Robusto

@KitFox If I haven't proven that by this time, I should give up.

tchrist

But you can see why it seems confusing the other way, when it is expected to mean something completely different.

I shall probably wind up accepting Andrew’s answer if I don’t hear something more interesting, like from John Lawler or Barrie. I certainly shan’t be accepting Franke’s; he’s too pissy.

@Robusto Not much, no. The only way you find interesting questions is if you get the Reader’s Digest version of ELU, the best-of questions, which get time-compressed out of the dross.

Ah, I just found a U.S. example from the year 1900.

Robusto

20:03

tchrist

Whoa!

Robusto

Brian Blessed (hardon not shown).

tchrist

I know who it is.

I had no idea he did opera. :)

Well, or pr0n.

Robusto

Well, it was opera, sort of, after Freddie Mercury got finished with it.

tchrist

Don’t tell me it’s a Queen video?

Flash!

Forgot.

Robusto

20:10

How quickly we forget Brian Blessed and his wisdom teeth.

Mitch

@Robusto Think of it as interesting but with a different set of thresholds. Like "Why do we say 'I think X' when if you say 'X' it's obvious that you already thought it?"

Lower your standards?

Robusto

20:30

Coming here already represented a lowering of my standards. How low do you expect me to go?

Mitch

@Robusto lower your standards even more and then things will all look so much better.

Marthaª

@Robusto: you have standards? What's on them? Are they silk? Do they flutter prettily in the wind?

Robusto

@Marthaª Metaphorically speaking, yes.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…