English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

M.A.R.

04:12

@Cerberus cadposts? I'm an expert in cadposts.

CowperKettle

05:13

@M.A.R. Yesterday, officials said that urgent referendums should be held in the Donetsk and Luhansk Republics to make them part of Russia. After that, if Ukraine ventures across their borders, Putin could legitimately put Russia under military law and announce mobilization.

@Robusto It's much too early to speak of Ukraine winning.

> Why should we bomb Ukraine, when we have Britain!

(Duma deputy Andrei Gurulev)

Xanne

07:32

Wordle 458 3/6

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https://worldle.teuteuf.fr

CowperKettle

#Worldle #242 1/6 (100%)
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https://worldle.teuteuf.fr

jlliagre

07:53

Wordle 458 6/6

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Xanne

@CowperKettle Impressive.

CowperKettle

@Xanne It has been in the news so much ))

jlliagre

08:38

When a shape is not familiar to me, I try to guess which part of its border is a coastline, if any, and which one is not but when that guess is wrong, I rule out some countries I shouldn't have.

Robusto

09:13

#Worldle #242 1/6 (100%)
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https://worldle.teuteuf.fr

@CowperKettle Especially in Russia, I'm sure.

🌎 Sept 20, 2022 🌍
🔥 20 | Avg. Guesses: 6.35
🟥🟥🟥🟩 = 4

#globle

Protests Spread Across Iran Over Woman’s Death in Police Detention

@M.A.R.: Is that in the news there?

> Protests spread across Iran on Monday over the death of a young woman in police custody who allegedly violated the country’s strict Islamic dress code, with women removing their state-mandated headscarves in the streets and police responding with force.

I find this utterly astonishing that police would fire into crowds because women removed their scarves.

But at my age nothing surprises me anymore.

> Four people were killed and a 10-year-old child was shot on Monday by Iranian security forces, who fired live rounds at protesters in the country’s west, according to Hengaw, a human-rights organization in Iran’s Kurdish region, where Ms. Amini was from.

M.A.R.

09:55

@Robusto not the official sort of news of course

I think there's some context we're missing about the original arrest. I mean, chadori women probably make up for 5% or so of the female population of modern day Iran. Why was Ms. Amini arrested over millions of other women? Beating people in custody to death is barbaric of course, regardless.

Women try to be 'fashionable', well, at least not apparitions in pitch black clothing, by showing some hair, and wearing scarves instead of chador. The only moral police ('gasht-e-ershad') I've seen are old fools who want to pick on everyone for one petty reason or another giving gruff warnings about dress code in the university.

So this is more like extremist misogynistic thugs being given the run of the place, and forcing their version of thuggery down people's throats, rather than state troopers marching on the streets forcing people to wear scarves.

A crackdown is a crackdown though. North Korea or Ethiopia or Iran, it's senseless murder.

Faheem Mitha

10:18

@Robusto My impression was simply that he is not choosing to devote a lot of military resources to it. But I'm not sure if anyone knows.

Faheem Mitha

11:01

@M.A.R. Is Ramesh an unisex name in Iran? Or is it strictly female?

In India it's strictly male. Different etymology.

CowperKettle

11:23

Mobilization may soon be announced.

Faheem Mitha

11:44

@CowperKettle Does that include conscription?

CowperKettle

@FaheemMitha Russia already has conscription

Whether the current conscripts will be sent to the frontline - I don't know, that will depend on the rules of mobilization.

M.A.R.

12:51

@CowperKettle for this special operation, we started out with a simple appendectomy, but it turned out to be a brain tumor removal surgery. We humbly request a few extra surgeons to join us in the operating room.

@FaheemMitha wait, uh, I think it's a masculine name? If you're sure there are Iranian women named Ramesh, then it's at least predominantly masculine.

@CowperKettle sigh of course he did.

CowperKettle

Russian markets dropped just now, on the news of possible mobilization.

The referendums will end on September 27, so by 1st October..

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle Oh. I didn't know that. What does mobilization mean in this context, exactly?

@M.A.R. Well, I just came across one example. Which threw me, because in India it's an exclusively masculine name.

CowperKettle

@FaheemMitha Mobilization? Forced enrollment of able-bodied men into the army.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle Yes, mobilization. Which is different from conscription?

CowperKettle

13:07

I was certain that it will come to this, and yet I kept hoping that it woudl not.

tchrist

It appears to be their way of discarding civil society to save the state from threat of imminent dissolution, replacing it with rulership by the military. They enslave the peasants under martial law, the law that says anything the generals want is the law.

Senatus consultum ultimum

The senatus consultum ultimum ("final decree of the senate", often abbreviated to SCU) is the modern term given to resolutions of the Roman senate lending its moral support for magistrates to use the full extent of their powers and ignore the laws to safeguard the state. The decree has been interpreted to mean something akin to martial law, a suspension of the constitution, or a state of emergency. However, it is generally accepted that the senate did not have power to make or provide exceptions to laws. No laws were actually suspended; the senate merely lent its moral authority to defend a...

It allows them to ignore the law in order to safeguard the state.

Due to an existential threat to the state.

CowperKettle

The new amendments provide a 10-year jail term for "voluntary surrender into captivity".

tchrist

Think temporary military dictatorship.

@CowperKettle How can surrendering be a crime? You're supposed to die?

CowperKettle

@tchrist Yes, you are supposed to surrender only if there are "no other options"

There was such a law in the USSR

It was canceled in Russia in 1992.

tchrist

ANd dying is an option?

Strange.

CowperKettle

13:13

Dying is an option, yes, but you can surrender, provided that you can prove afterwards that you "had no other option", which is hard.

tchrist

Surrender is not desertion.

CowperKettle

I know

tchrist

You cannot create a legion from slaves. It does not work.

This strikes me as extreme desperation.

Neither does using prisoners to form fighting battalions seem likely to produce elite units.

Almost as effective a strategy as stealing all the men from neighboring Finland or Mongolia or Alaska to make them fight for you in Ukraine. Without morale, you have no chance.

I do not think the Russian peasant will celebrate the imposition of martial law.

> India, a longstanding Moscow ally which has tended to abstain in votes on Ukraine, voted in Zelenskiy’s favor. The vote was on the same day that India’s prime minister, Narendra Modi, publicly scolded Vladimir Putin, telling him “today’s time is not a time for war” when they made a joint appearance at a regional Asia summit in Uzbekistan.

That's got to sting.

Does public scolding work?

In an allusion to its brief life span, Aristotle dubbed the insect ephemeron. And to this day they are known as the Ephemeroptera.

As are we all.

Robusto

13:40

@M.A.R. So it's some kind of paramilitary response?

Wordle 458 4/6

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@tchrist Yeah, when Russia is too fascist for Modi, you gotta wonder.

2

tchrist

> A tumultus was a state of emergency declared under threat of hostile attack. During the duration of a tumultus, state officials wore military dress, all military leave was cancelled, and citizens were levied into the military. A iustitium also was normally declared, which suspended the legal jurisdiction of the magistrates "to enable the people to concentrate on raising an army".

"Citizens were levied into the military".

I do not think Moscow is under threat of hostile attack. The existential threat is to Putin alone, not to Russia.

Robusto

"Russian generals realize the war is lost" - Interview with Garry Kasparov

►

tchrist

I do not think that English tumble and French tomber are related to tumult, but I could be wrong. Consult the walls of Jericho on that one.

Robusto

> The only chance to liberate Russia from Putin's fascism is to raise the Ukrainian flag over Sevastopol —Garry Kasparov

tchrist

Now that's a guy with a checkered past.

I'm not 100.00000% certain that returning the stolen Sevastopol to Ukraine would free Russia from fascism.

Robusto

13:55

Kasparov characterizes Putin as a fascist. Good call.

tchrist

I hadn't even noticed that. It seems without question.

Robusto

Some visitors to this chat, naming no names, have refused to apply that label to some who are clearly fascists.

tchrist

Trump not the tramps.

Robusto

Trump is absolutely a fascist.

tchrist

Axis forces are again in global ascendancy today.

Robusto

14:01

Sweden's far right is even gaining ground.

M.A.R.

@Robusto the initial arrest and beating by the so-called moral police? Yeah it's essentially that. The latter crackdown on protesters by riot police is of course legit government-funded police.

Robusto

De facto followed by de jure.

tchrist

The only jus-y bit there derives from some lex Draconis.

Do not wake the Draco.

M.A.R.

Sadly, I don't think these protests will ever amount to much. AFAICT the way these things work is people come up with concrete criteria for reform, organize their protests, and get serious when their demands aren't met. People here are still in the figuring out stage. Young people may want to, I dunno, abolish the obligation of hijab, or try to weaken the Mullahs' influence in schools' curricula. They can't whisper it though, because the older population is still too religious for these things

. . . not to be considered radical or heretical.

tchrist

waits for a full stop

. . . lest ellipses continue

And done.

M.A.R.

14:07

Yay I did it

tchrist

It is done.

M.A.R.

.

tchrist

The religious seldom age into less religiosity.

M.A.R.

Of course, this is assuming foreign entities don't stir up crap. What I'm saying is the regime is I think pretty stable, just mildly concerned about where things are going. And if push comes to shove, I'm sure drawers are colorfully filled with passports and citizenships.

Robusto

@tchrist I was religious as a child. Look at me now.

tchrist

14:10

Having people there still being in the figuring out stage is far better than being in the head in the sand stage, which protected no ostrich ever.

@Robusto When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. — 1 Corinthians 13:11

M.A.R.

@tchrist but if you establish a theocracy, and advertise how unique it is, and it eventually seems to be uniquely failing (which I think is debatable), you'd be surprised at how much people's resolves weaken

tchrist

@M.A.R. Is not its failing more something old than something new? Whence its purported uniquity?

Robusto

@tchrist Indeed.

 The power of the visible
   is the invisible; as even where
no tree of freedom grows,
so-called brute courage knows.
   Heroism is exhausting, yet
it contradicts a greed that did not wisely spare
the harmless solitaire

   or great auk in its grandeur;
   unsolicitude having swallowed up
all giant birds but an alert gargantuan
   little-winged, magnificently speedy running-bird.
This one remaining rebel
is the sparrow-camel.

Marianne Moore, "He Digesteth Harde Yronne" (excerpt)

M.A.R.

Of course, those religious people are like "we have distanced ourselves from the values and need to go back to them", not unlike the crazy Bible toting white supremacists across the pond. But they eventually lose the will to try to correct things, because they're treated as dogs to put on a short leash by the system.

tchrist

@M.A.R. Meaning, how do people see its particular failings as unique ones that are some new thing never before seen under the sun?

M.A.R.

14:14

The only exception to this is military people, who can go kill some foreign people in the name of their god to keep that holy fire burning.

@tchrist people have a very short attention span. The sort of person that can think back to the Sassanid theocracy and draw parallels is not rooting for this system anyway

tchrist

Hestia needed no human sacrifices to keep our hearths aflame, only our hearts.

M.A.R.

Makes me wonder. How many "Greek religions" were there? The major ones I mean. Or was it just the one, constantly changing its gods like underwear?

As I was saying, "religious democracy" or "religious republic" are things these guys say they invented. And kids are told these things, and few adults revisit the concept. Most people, regardless of their religiosity or disposition towards the Islamic Republic, believe almost subconsciously that this is a unique and novel system they've come up with after the revolution

Robusto

@M.A.R. Like anything else, it coalesced from many tales and amendments, emendations and accretions, until it became canonical, at which point it ceased growing and began to die.

M.A.R.

And this unique system is crumbling all around them, literally and figuratively, and people are so generally depressed and distrustful of the government that they actually even exaggerate how bad the situation is

The nationalistic pride has all but vanished, except for sports. It's interesting that if people hear about a new cancer treatment some Iranian researchers work on, they're skeptical and unenthusiastic, but 11 Iranian millionaires competing with 11 Korean or Saudi Arabian millionaires chasing after a ball, now that's a major event and everyone should be happy when we win and sad when we lose.

Robusto

@M.A.R. Sport is the new religion. Or maybe it always was the old religion.

The Olympic games were so sacred that the participants would even put real wars on hiatus.

The very definition of sacrosanct.

jlliagre

14:28

Sep 5 at 21:22, by jlliagre

Das Opium des Volkes

tchrist

@M.A.R. I shouldn't imagine today's youth over there are any more familiar with the rise and fall of the ancient Sassanid theocracy than today's youth over here are familiar with the rise and fall of the Ancient Roman Republic (not Empire).

@M.A.R. Nationalistic pride may, or may not, be same thing as nationalism or patriotism. Sometimes those are a sign of health, but other times a sign of decay.

@jlliagre oder der Walküren? :)

No, the people no wings have.

Robusto

14:45

Wenn Schweine fliegen ...

jlliagre

@tchrist

Robusto

Kyrie eleisoooooonnnnnnnn-ahahahahahahahaaaaa!

jlliagre

Robusto

tchrist

15:03

@jlliagre La vache qui rit?

jlliagre

Yes, its Ukranian name. La Vache qui rit got its name from a pun on La Walkyrie.

2

tchrist

Gosh, I am positive I never knew that. Have I entered the Twilight Zone?

Robusto

Don't feel bad. I wasn't aware of that etymology either.

I knew of the cheese, not the name's origin.

tchrist

Strange connection.

AKA curious liaison.

Robusto

Liaison d'être?

tchrist

15:08

I swear I've known of the laughing cow forever. But obviously I never truly knew her.

Mitch

@Robusto I don't disagree with that, but I'll take that statement as a way for me to attempt to say again that I feel like that is intellectualizing the situation (similar to calling his economic strategy 'mercantilist').

To explain, it makes it seem like that guy is actually intentionally taking on a label like that and planned form the beginning little by little to become that label.

But, to me, it's so obvious there's no explicit thought in his head to try to be a fascist, simply it's the easiest thing for him to de, being an immature, reactive, petulant, selfish, unempathetic person.

tchrist

No more coffee for you today, Mitch.

Mitch

It's like when people call him ... uh... what's the word...

incurious

Robusto

@Mitch OK, so he's a fascist-manqué?

Mitch

it's like there is some intention on his part

he's just dumb

when really

I guess you can't say that in a newspaper?

Robusto

15:12

Is it a characteristic of narcissism to be so unself-aware?

Mitch

@Robusto well... I have a feeling that many fascists are are those things and other people are just expressing the bullying behavior with the fancier word

tchrist

Ask the daffodil.

The narcissist has no concerns but for himself.

Mitch

@Robusto Psychiatrically... it can go both ways. Some narcissists are unaware, others are like "yeah, because I -am- better than everybody else"

so they may be aware, and their ability to abuse people may require them to have a good intellectual empathy (to better use other people). But the narcissism is tat they don't feel emotional pain for others.

(that's slipping over into less well-defined 'sociopathy' but all part of the 'dark triangle' )

@tchrist the nuance being that they'll care what other people think/feel only to the extent that it is to their own purpose.

@Robusto I don't think he's out of the picture yet.

Cerberus

15:28

@M.A.R. "Can anyone hear what words are spoken in this video?"

Robusto

@Mitch The dark triangle?

Pure Reason Revolution - The Dark Third (2006)

►

Faheem Mitha

17:01

@tchrist The fall of the Republic is a much better known event.

Robusto

17:22

What most people know about the ancient Romans and Greeks is taken from two films: Gladiator and 300.

I wouldn't even call that a cursory knowledge.

Cerberus

I have not seen those.

Robusto

Well, they're both factually flawed and incomplete.

Cerberus

Talking about cursory knowledge, I think I may have seen parts of Ben Hur.

Robusto

Hehe, that one was taken from a pious novel written by a Civil War general.

Cerberus

But it was cursory.

Robusto

17:24

Indeed.

Cerberus

If I remember correctly.

Robusto

Its purpose was to promote Christianity.

Cerberus

Failed.

Faheem Mitha

The fall of the Republic is actually one of the best known periods of Roman history. Along with the Claudian dynasty. My knowledge of the rest of Roman history can be optimistically described as sketchy. I imagine that's quite typical.

That whole period has been much written about. Unlike most of Roman history.

Cerberus

Hannibal?

Robusto

17:31

Ben-Hur: A Tale of the Christ

Ben-Hur: A Tale of the Christ is a novel by Lew Wallace, published by Harper and Brothers on November 12, 1880, and considered "the most influential Christian book of the nineteenth century". It became a best-selling American novel, surpassing Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin (1852) in sales. The book also inspired other novels with biblical settings and was adapted for the stage and motion picture productions. Ben-Hur remained at the top of the US all-time bestseller list until the 1936 publication of Margaret Mitchell's Gone with the Wind. The 1959 MGM film adaptation of Ben-Hur ...

Cerberus

Constantine?

Faheem Mitha

There were also those very unfortunate events collectively referred to as the Punic Wars.

Cerberus

You sound like Putin!

Robusto

Lew Wallace

Lewis Wallace (April 10, 1827 – February 15, 1905) was an American lawyer, Union general in the American Civil War, governor of the New Mexico Territory, politician, diplomat, and author from Indiana. Among his novels and biographies, Wallace is best known for his historical adventure story, Ben-Hur: A Tale of the Christ (1880), a bestselling novel that has been called "the most influential Christian book of the nineteenth century."Wallace's military career included service in the Mexican–American War and the American Civil War. He was appointed Indiana's adjutant general and commanded the 11th...

Cerberus

The very unfortunate events in Ukraine.

Faheem Mitha

17:32

@Cerberus Pardon?

For the record, I had nothing to do with the Punic Wars.

2

Robusto

@FaheemMitha A likely story.

For millennia we've been blaming the Punic Wars on Hannibal Barca. At last we've found the true culprit.

Faheem Mitha

I've read a few of Rosemary Sutcliff's novels of Roman Britain. Notably the "Eagle of the Ninth" sequence. Though very atmospheric, they're probably not relevant to Roman history.

@Robusto People normally consider the Romans responsible.

Robusto

Not the Romans.

Faheem Mitha

Also, those Romans are crazy.

Robusto

Except they were good at engineering.

Faheem Mitha

17:40

Also stealing and killing.

Robusto

They could support a population of a million thanks to their aqueducts. Once the barbarians destroyed those, they could barely support 40,000.

@FaheemMitha Which human empire did not excel at those pursuits?

Faheem Mitha

@Robusto It's not a competition.

Robusto

A competition is precisely what it is.

Faheem Mitha

Anyway, I hardly know any Roman history. And I am not sure about the accuracy of what I think I know. But I suppose that's typical of any history. Particularly from sufficiently long ago.

Robusto

I find history quite interesting. For the first half of my life I was mainly interested in fiction. Now I read mostly non-fiction, especially history.

Faheem Mitha

17:47

The Lost Legion has received quite a lot of recent attention. Though I've only read "The Eagle of the Ninth".

@Robusto How about historical fiction?

Robusto

That is probably my favorite fiction.

When it's done well, it's both entertaining and informative.

Faheem Mitha

Sometimes it's just fantasy. Like Robert Graves' novels about the Claudians.

Robusto

Well, Graves was criticized for having cribbed most of I, Claudius from Suetonius.

Faheem Mitha

Well, Julio-Claudians, I guess.

Robusto

It's hard to tell how much of the ancient historians is fact or fable.

Faheem Mitha

17:51

@Robusto It seems to me he made a lot of it up. Especially the more sensationalist parts.

Seeing that he was writing about the Romans, that's saying something.

But as I already said, I only have a sketchy knowledge of the history.

Robusto

@FaheemMitha That's why it's called fiction. He didn't make up agreed-upon historical elements, but he fleshed out that skeleton with lots of titillating fiction.

Faheem Mitha

@Robusto I thought he made the Romans out to be even more horrible than they probably were. Like Claudius's wife poisoning him.

Robusto

The danger in historical fiction, of course, is that unless you really know the history you don't know where it departs from that.

Faheem Mitha

They don't sound like the nicest people in general, it must be said. At least the aristocracy.

@Robusto Agreed.

Robusto

@FaheemMitha Oh, they were plenty horrible. Rest assured.

Faheem Mitha

17:54

I'm sure they were.

tchrist

18:33

@FaheemMitha Not to be confused with the unfortunate Pontic wars in Anatolia and Cimmeria.

When the conans walked amongst us.

Faheem Mitha

@tchrist I don't know what those are.

tchrist

Turkey. Crimea. Conan the Barbarian was Cimmerian.

Places around the Black Sea. Like Pontus.

Romanization of Anatolia

The Romanization of Anatolia (modern Turkey) saw the spread of Roman political and administrative influence throughout the region of Anatolia after its Roman acquisition. The aim of Romanization in Anatolia included the change from the previously dominant cultures, such as Persian and Greek, to a more dominantly Roman presence in any one region. Romanization usually included forcing the local populaces to adopt a Roman way of life - ranging from the local laws to its political system and the impact it had on the peoples living in the region. Anatolia was largely to completely resistant to the entire...

tchrist

19:10

> If the laws be continually despised and disregarded, if their rights to be secure in their persons and property, are held by no better tenure than the caprice of a mob, the alienation of their affections from the Government is the natural consequence; and to that, sooner or later, it must come.

user 726941

19:50

Sounds like Jan 6.

Robusto

21:55

@jlliagre So is vachement bien still a common expression or has it faded from usage?

jlliagre

@Robusto Still used by adults but I guess rare/outdated for teenagers.

Robusto

I always thought that one was a funny usage.

jlliagre

Tons of occurrences of this adverb in forums though. It's definitely still alive.

jlliagre

22:26

@Robusto Vachement it often being replaced by grave (serious, severe) by teenagers like in C'est grave bien, C'est grave bon, Il s'est grave fait mal, etc. This new adverb horrified the prescriptivists.

Robusto

haha!

jlliagre

I just found the Académie française wasn't shocked.

On peut s’amuser des tours et détours des mots au gré des modes. Ainsi la langue parlée par la jeunesse s’empare parfois de mots anciens en leur donnant une nouvelle vitalité.

[...]

De même, l’adjectif Grave, venu tout droit du latin gravis, signifiant lourd, pesant, retrouve tout son poids dans des tournures comme « Il est grave », signifiant à peu près « Il ne comprend rien » ou « Il est insupportable ». Employé comme adverbe, il marque l’intensité : « Je t’aime grave », « C’est grave compliqué ». Utilisé absolument, Grave constitue une affirmation enthousiaste : « – C’était bien ? – Gr…

academie-francaise.fr/bouffon-grave

tchrist

23:34

@jlliagre Oh how fortunate that "grave" still doesn't end up meaning "gravid", lest one be too easily embarrassed by misspeaking something to someone who isn't in on the latest lingo fashions, like can happen with estar embarazada in Spanish. :)

Someone who is not one of today's youth trying to speak with their lingo stinks of the same inauthenticity that a greybeard sporting the butt-baggy jeans of an urban teenager would. It's fake and creepy.

Eventually the newness wears off, and the cool can be cool again.

Clearly the Académie are themselves enjoying playing with words: des tours et détours is euphonious. You are trapped in a twisty turny passage all alike.

@jlliagre Like the New Englanders' wicked cool and wicked hard, where a simple adjective has for them become an adverbial intensifier.

The only way to stop a living thing from growing and changing is to kill it. This is also true of languages, for they too are living things. Until they aren't.

2

Robusto

23:55

Cf. "We had some serious fun last night."

@tchrist Yeah, that one always gave me a chuckle too. Hey, nothing to be embarazada about, lady. This is how the human race replenishes itself.

Cerberus

What do you think has happened here?

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