English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

00:25

"Banned", from where?

Robusto

00:40

@Cerberus Schools in Republican states.

Like Florida.

Cerberus

00:51

Ah, OK.

Why would they ban Fahrenheit 451?

Robusto

I cannot say. Maybe because it is a critique of the whole idea of banning books and ideas and anything that is different from their mindset.

Cerberus

Would they seriously ban it for that?

Or was it just taken off the curriculum for some unknown reason?

Robusto

This is a culture war. Florida also prohibited teachers from mentioning anything about gay people in the classroom.

If you don't say the word "gay" then no one will become that, right?

Cerberus

01:07

At least that can be comprehended.

But a book like Fahrenheit 451?

What I remember: a totalitarian state, stupid people, commercial mass culture.

I don't remember anything else of consequence that was criticised?

Robusto

@Cerberus Yes, which is what exactly these people want.

Cerberus

And the opposites of those three were implicitly praised.

Robusto

Idiocracy.

Cerberus

Freedom, independent thought, interesting texts/art.

I've not seen Republicans specifically argue against those?

> In the years since its publication, Fahrenheit 451 has occasionally been banned, censored, or redacted in some schools at the behest of parents or teaching staff either unaware of or indifferent to the inherent irony in such censorship. Notable incidents include:

In Apartheid South Africa the book was burned along with thousands of banned publications between the 1950s and 1970s.[78]
In 1987, Fahrenheit 451 was given "third tier" status by the Bay County School Board in Panama City, Florida, under then-superintendent Leonard Hall's new three-tier classification system. Third tier was mea…

3

So the book was attacked in America over some minor details, nothing related to the main plot.

Robusto

Ignorance is strength.

Mikhail S. Gorbachev, Reformist Soviet Leader, Is Dead at 91

Sorry to see him go. I'm sure Putin will be dancing from joy.

Cerberus

01:44

At least he made a step towards modernity.

Xanne

07:12

Wordle 438 6/6

⬜⬜⬜⬜🟩
⬜🟩⬜🟨⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜🟩🟩⬜🟩
🟩🟩🟩⬜🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

A hard one.

jlliagre

07:56

Wordle 438 4/6

⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜🟩🟨⬜⬜
🟩🟩🟩⬜🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

jlliagre

08:08

🌎 Aug 31, 2022 🌍
🔥 3 | Avg. Guesses: 8.47
⬜🟨🟨🟧🟧🟩 = 6

#globle

Robusto

12:35

#Worldle #222 1/6 (100%)
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr

I dare anyone not to get this. ;)

______________

Wordle 438 6/6

⬜⬜🟩🟨⬜
⬜⬜⬜🟨⬜
⬜🟩🟩⬜🟩
⬜🟩🟩🟨🟩
🟩🟩🟩⬜🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Difficult but predictable.

> Ay oruguitas, no se aguanten más
Hay que crecer a parte y volver
Hacia adelante seguirás
Vienen milagros, vienen crisálidas
Hay que partir y construir su propio futuro

Robusto

13:09

New Prevention Campaign Urges Public To Look Out For Early Signs Of Being Cut In Half By Samurai

Americans Explain Why They Oppose Canceling Student Debt

Ah, the Onion.

M.A.R.

15:00

#Worldle #222 1/6 (100%)
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr

Sorry to disappoint

@Robusto the one about "why Americans don't want the minimum wage to be raised" is awesome

Especially 'cause it's almost all actual arguments made by people

@Cerberus I think the book's criticism of crude loudness hits too close to home for some people. I mean, you see some posts on social media, and that there are millions of teens out there scrolling through the loud crap for hours every day, and you can't help but think that's exactly what Bradbury envisioned.

Mitch

@Robusto “The suffering, yes, it pleases me.”

@M.A.R. About your place, what is the financial situation for college education? Entirely self-paid? Loans (govt or otherwise)? Entirely government paid? some weird mix?

M.A.R.

15:22

@Mitch some weird mix. You know about the horrid sorta nationwide entrance exam selection, right? If you rank high enough, once you apply to "sarasari" (lit. nation-wide) universities, almost all your expenses are paid. You just pay a meager sum for subsidized meals, and some student IDs and that's it. If you don't rank high enough in the same field, you may apply for Pardis universities. Except uh, Pardis and sarasari are the same.

People who ranked higher and lower (which is still pretty high for really popular fields like medicine, dentistry and pharmacy) study in the same classes, and are taught by the same people. Except Pardis students have to pay what do you call it, tuition fee, every term.

This tuition fee is not that high, certainly not cripplingly high. And there are student loans, but because our system is wholly different, and they actually expect those loans to be paid back in sooner than a couple of decades, they're not that predatory. Think bobcats vs tigers.

Mitch

@Cerberus You can't have firemen depicted like that. It's Unamerican.

But 'banned' is used a bit hyperbolically, even though when it is used hyperbolically it still shows fascistic tendencies.

M.A.R.

Overall I think it's supposed to be like Germany, and the system was originally built with this vision in mind that education is not much of a commerce, but a public service, and ever since we have edged closer to Americanizing it, but are nowhere close to America, nor the UK.

Mitch

I think the only things that have been outright 'banned' by the government are things like 'Lady Chatterley's Lover' for obscenity. All these other books like 'Catcher in the Rye' and 'To Kill a Mockingbird' are classics in US Lit that practically -everyone- up to today has read, and 'banning' means that at least in one county in some state somewhere in the past 70 years...

the school board (a selection of non-governmental overseers of the school budget) decided to have the tell the school librarian take the one copy off the library shelves -or- told the 7th grade English to teacher to not assign (or else get fired).

M.A.R.

I haven't read Catcher in the Rye because I know I won't enjoy it, but I appreciate the impact it has had.

Mitch

So not -banned- but definitely fascistic.

Cerberus

15:34

@M.A.R. Yeah, stupid commercial mass television/films/Internet would seem to be just that.

M.A.R.

Anyway, I think here people don't normally complain about tuition fees or student loans, only when they were really disgruntled because pandemic era teaching was very subpar.

Mitch

@M.A.R. It's a young adult novel that appeals to a certain kind of ... non mainstream person. So it seems stupid to people out of high school, but might appeal to people who weren't mainstream when younger.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. What "we"?

We, Germany?

M.A.R.

We, Iran

Coming to cinemas

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah, I figures as much.

Still awfully silly.

@M.A.R. Ah, OK.

M.A.R.

15:36

You know, I'd kill for an accurate portrayal of Iranian life

Cerberus

We have seen some of that development here as well.

Though we seem to be past its peak now, at last.

Mitch

@M.A.R. There are full-ride scholarships in the US but those are pretty rare, -and- the proportion of people who are encouraged to go to college is very high and the costs are yes predatory.

M.A.R.

Not the eccentric crap with an agenda, nor the state trash we get here.

Mitch

So kinda the same but the US is extreme as usual

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Have you seen Onze Man in Teheran?

Thomas Erdbrink

Thomas Erdbrink (Dutch pronunciation: [ˈtoːmɑs ˈɛrtbrɪnk]; born January 27, 1976) is a Dutch journalist who is the Northern Europe bureau chief for The New York Times, covering Nordic countries and the Netherlands. He was from 2012 until 2019 the Tehran Bureau Chief for The New York Times. Erdbrink was at the time one of the few Western reporters accredited for U.S. media in Iran.Erdbrink has a B.A. in journalism from HU University of Applied Sciences Utrecht. From 2008 to 2012 he served as The Washington Post bureau chief in Tehran and was succeeded by Jason Rezaian. He is fluent in Dutch, English...

M.A.R.

15:37

@Mitch It wouldn't be special if it wasn't. teary-eyed

@Cerberus nope. Honestly, I've never tried the "eccentric crap with an agenda", because I was so sure they'd fail at impressing me.

Documentary? Nobody watches those

More accurately, nobody remembers them. A good movie would stick around.

Mitch

@M.A.R. starts writing screenplay

writer's block after title written down

@M.A.R. In Iranian media or outside of Iran?

OK both, but those are still probably very different from reality but in different ways.

M.A.R.

@Mitch anywhere

Though of course the odds of it being on Iranian media are infinitesimal

@Cerberus the IMDB description is not very encouraging.

> In 'Onze Man in Teheran' (our man in Teheran) Thomas' life is shown as a computer game: constantly filled with pitfalls and dangers, in a country where nothing is what it seems. Erdbrink, who speaks Persian fluently, goes beyond the usual stereotypes of angry bearded men and women clad in black and shows a unique portrait of the modern Iran, where women are often in charge en where you can buy your way out of an execution.

> It took the production team years to get permission to follow Erdbrink in his work and personal life in Iran. The result is unprecedented access to a complicated country where society seems to be characterized by unrest and uncertainty,

Nope.

If the documentary is half as bad as this description, I'd have a very hard time watching it.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Well, the only agenda I have seen in this series is "OMG let's portray Iranian life in an un-pretentious way countering certain stereotypes, including my Iranian wife and friends".

Mitch

@M.A.R. Buy your way out of an execution?

hastily draws up plans

@M.A.R. Have you seen 'Argo'?

Cerberus

@M.A.R. shown as a computer game: constantly filled with pitfalls and dangers: this makes no sense to me.

M.A.R.

15:47

@Mitch probably possible of course. But saying this system of religious fanatics is not infallible and we're not Daesh presupposes a lot of bad things that I don't see in the average Iranian.

Cerberus

The documentary is quite pleasant and ordinary.

His life there is quite ordinary.

Mitch

How about... uh .... some other movie? Oh yeah 'Not without my daughter'?

@M.A.R. Also not the Taliban

M.A.R.

@Mitch not all of it. Trash at worst, outdated at best. Again, the only famous portrayal of an entire nation being a movie placed after a revolution with frenzied chadori women attacking the poor innocent Americans doesn't set the right picture

And I've found whenever Affleck is headlining, he's often dishonest or pretentious. They say "oh America did some evil thing back in 1953", they have to say it because it makes for a "compelling" movie. But they don't mean it.

@Mitch yes, thank you. Your understanding of the Iranian people is impeccable

I vote Mitch to be the director for a new movie set in Iran. Called Fargo.

Wait, that's taken

@Cerberus that's what I wanna watch. Well, maybe.

Cargo? Maybe. Unless that name is also taken

> But behind the scenes, there is still a fierce power struggle between reformers and religious hardliners. Normal Iranians are becoming tired of this. They are making their own changes happen.

cocks shotgun

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Oh, by the way, there seems to be an older documentary, Our Man in Tehran: that is the wrong one, completely unrelated.

What I have watched is a series, by Thomas Erdbrink.

I'm trying to find a version with English subtitles (the series is in Dutch).

Faheem Mitha

16:35

@M.A.R. You could write one.

Mitch

@M.A.R. All's Fargo that ends Fargo

@M.A.R. I mean those guys are crazy

@M.A.R. no chadori were frenzied in the movie

But yeah most of the mean we're angry, bearded or both.

I was shocked by how all the nonItanians were ... Um what's the word... mustachioed?

They all had these what would currently be called unstylish mustaches

So if people complain about bearded men they could just as well
Complain about the American and Canadian mustaches

@M.A.R. but... -everybody- does that, confused neighbors with each other, when really they're at each other's throats

There's a star trek episode surely

jlliagre

17:17

#Worldle #222 1/6 (100%)
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr

Once again, a tiny microstate in the middle of nowhere...

Cerberus

17:51

#Worldle #222 1/6 (100%)
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr

@jlliagre Yeah I hate those island groups with a little piece of mainland.

Cerberus

18:36

Linked In.

I feel so recognised.

Robusto

@Cerberus It's not the quantity, but the quality that counts.

Cerberus

Very true.

Robusto

After I retired I deleted my LinkedIn account. Too much interest from headhunters.

Cerberus

I've never really used it at all.

I think I had to make an account for some wedding party, oddly.

No idea why.

It had to do with organising something.

PBS Frontline Documentary Part 1 Our Man in Tehran

►

@M.A.R. Erdbrink made an English version of his documentary.

Without subtitles.

So he probably used material from his Dutch series.

But I see new stuff, at least in the beginning.

It begins at the place where he first met his Iranian wife, 17 years earlier.

Perhaps you will recognise it.

All I can say is that I liked his Dutch series. It seemed balanced enough, although of course he will now and then ask simplistic questions like a mainstream journalist.

M.A.R.

18:54

@Cerberus 1 brown profile view

Cerberus

Nice, huh?

M.A.R.

@Cerberus okay I might check it out later

Cerberus

No pressure haha.

M.A.R.

It sounds like a start, but mostly just that

Cerberus

I don't remember how our conversation began.

A start of what?

M.A.R.

18:55

What I hope for just isn't feasible. Iranians should be making balanced, reasonable shows about themselves. No one else cares all that much

Cerberus

Ah, OK.

Are you sure there isn't any balanced documentary/thing made by Iranians?

I bet his Iranian in-laws helped make the documentary, though.

I mean, his wife is a journalist as well.

M.A.R.

There might be a couple, but they'd be so heavily infused with inferiority complexes or heavy handed blunt messages about feminism or other similar social movements that they'd always appear doctored and heavily biased.

No one sits around and thinks "What do MAR and people like him think about? What do they believe, and how do they believe that?" No one is trying to be sincere when it comes to Iran or Russia or NK, you get the idea,

It's all about well-intentioned synthetic and extreme messages whose only purpose seems to be to counter state propaganda, to save the "brainwashed" masses.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Strange.

I Erdbrink can do it, then surely so can Iranians.

M.A.R.

It's kinda like political rhetoric. Full of strawmen. Nobody over a certain age here thinks that, I dunno, women are stupid or unfit to be doctors or engineers. People get frustrated and say stupid things. And of course we have our own share of bigots. And of course we need to educate ourselves, to know about issues that matter, as other people around the world have gotten around to doing. But that level of understanding and sympathy is unachievable right now.

Cerberus

Hmm are you sure?

I mean, if you can do it, then there should be more people.

M.A.R.

19:09

@Cerberus of course not. The big brother would shove the camera tripod up their ass. As I said, I'm mostly just daydreaming

Cerberus

So you think they'd not let Iranians film as much as foreigners?

M.A.R.

19:25

@Cerberus which they are we talking about?

Iranian government, or FBI or something? Of course, people abroad can make good movies and documentaries about people here, but why should they?

They feel so strongly about why they left or the freedoms they gained, there is not much room for sympathy, at least in my experience.

@FaheemMitha that sounds like a lot of w-word

M.A.R.

19:49

29

Q: Short story: aliens change world at housewife's accidental request

This is a mid-'80s story from Asimov's, I think. A woman is grocery shopping (or just finished) and in a bad mood — people are rude, her kids poorly behaved and U.S.-U.S.S.R. tensions very high. She is questioned by an alien in human form who asks her about the world and in irritation, she lies ...

Faheem Mitha

20:09

@M.A.R. w-word? What's that?

Mitch

20:34

@Robusto So that one guy really viewed his profile well.

Robusto

@Mitch It was stellar, perhaps even legendary. Few have ever received such a viewing.

Mitch

@M.A.R. Well, yeah, not -you-. OMG that would be horrendous.

Now -I- need brainwashing.

@Robusto Very intense for such a passive activity. Some stern but measured analysis. The engagement metric is intense. This one guy visited in Apr 2020 and hasn't left the tab.

@Cerberus Oh. I think I've seen that.

Robusto

@Mitch "Dwell time" is an important metric.

Mitch

But as usual I can't remember a thing about it

Like was there a car chase or a helicopter chase?

Did the villain fall accidentally off the cliff or did he by his own mistaken action throw himself off the cliff?

It's an important moral distinction.

@Robusto But haha the timing... that guy was dead of covid and they still haven't turned off his power.

@M.A.R. Wait... so it's only kids that are sexists? Oh 'certain age'. I think that age is boundlessly high. Everywhere. Iran is not special, no offense.

Those super liberated swedes with their topless dancing prime ministers and a year family leave that dudes actually take? They still have a domestic violence problem and sexism and anti foreigner bigotry and on and on. They just try not to do it out in the open.

Yes, I know it's finns

Mitch

21:03

> A sweater I bought was picking up static electricity. So I returned it to the store and they gave me another one free of charge

Robusto

@Mitch So you're saying it doesn't turn you on anymore?

Mitch

21:34

Robusto

21:47

@Mitch Hehe. But percussion players are used to seeing scores like that, with rests as far as the eye can see. The parts are required to have the composer's instructions whether or not there is any music for the musician to play in that section.

I know, an "um, actually" ...

Mitch

@Robusto It's just the image

of the drummer

flailing wildly

making sure -not- to touch any instrument

Robusto

I understand the joke. And it is funny. Nevertheless, as so often the case, there is a sober reality here as well.

In fact, in classical music, everyone but the strings is used to seeing lots of rests.

Mitch

I mean it's better than "count quietly to yourself"

Robusto

Whatever you do, don't tap your feet.

Mitch

That's the worst

"Look man we ain't in some barbershop quartet"

Robusto

21:56

Don't be flat, don't be sharp. Just be natural.

Mitch

Good enogh for jazz

I'll let that stand

Robusto

Good enough for government work, or good enough for rock 'n' roll. Let's leave jazz out of this.

Mitch

haha I have no idea

Cerberus

23:37

@Mitch Ah, cool.

Too bad you don't remember it.

@M.A.R. The Iranian government.

They let Erdbrink film.

In the Dutch version, there was even a long conversation with a censor at his office, about what was allowed and what wasn't.

Just a random example.

Sadly, they have retracted his filming licence now.

But he seemed to be allowed to film in many places and with many people.

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