@LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL REVERSED RegDwight ah so this is how I need to address you

@KitFox In English, balrogs.

@ΜετάEd kthx

This is a funny day. First people buying iPhones, then people calling Firefox a real browser. Gosh, what will they invent next?

@KitFox In Chinese, 炎魔

You forgot the 们.

@KitFox I dunno... is it a "person"? or an animal?

what would be nice is if they released a version of Seamonkey that was just the browser.

the Gecko engine, for people who want a decent browser UI instead of a pathetic Chrome wannabe

@Jez I think you missed the part where I said that the letter in my name was not a LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL REVERSED R.

@ЯegDwight pssht I have the fewest problems in Firefox.

两只炎魔？两位炎魔们？ 谁知道？

@KitFox The plural in Sindarin is Belryg.

@KitFox well I'm posting this from Firefox. I should know. And I do.

@KitFox The earlier Quenya word is Valarauko, plural Valaraukar.

I should totally have posted this question on the main site.

@Jez Isn't that what Firefox IS?

Maybe in April.

Xblast time. BBL.

no. it is a pathetic Chrome wannabe instead of having a decent UI

@Jez ... because the tabs are on top?

until recently, my theme could be used to force it back into firefox 3 style

but they're doing away with tabs-on-bottom

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yes, absolutely

i hate tabs-on-top

but they don't even want to keep offering the OPTION of toggling it because their devs are lazy bums

"not enough people" use tabs-on-bottom. well screw them.

it's not even logically better, tabs-on-bottom means the tabs are right next to the content. better.

I like Firefox.

me too

@Jez It depends on what you consider logical

why cant you make some noise to Mozilla about keeping it customizable then?

@Jez How do you mean?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i think either mode could be considered "logical". it's a question of what allows you to browse better

Why is tabs on bottom better?

@Cerberus i don't see what's unclear about that sentence

Pro tabs on top: the url bar is part of the page, and changes with the page, so it should be inside the tab. I.E. Tabs are just grouped single-document windows.

The "content" is all over the page, from top to bottom.

Pro tabs on bottom: you rarely have to use the url bar, but often use the tab bar, so put it closer.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 no, the urlbar is most certainly NOT part of the page. where is it in the HTML source?

So why would tabs at the bottom be closer to the content?

@Jez You bloody well know what I mean

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I bloody well don't.

no i really don't

Or do you mean tabs under or above the url bar (but still above the page)?

The "page" is a url and the associated document.

@Cerberus yes

Oh, I see.

@Cerberus oh. by tabs-on-bottom, i mean above the content but below the UI (or what little UI remains after the firefox team have eviscerated it)

Visualize it this way: in the old days, the browser was a rectangle with a url bar at the top and page content below

@Jez Wait, so Jez, you mean they will make it impossible to have it there in future versions?

Then people said "my window manager can't easily handle all the browser windows I have open, wah, wah"

So the browsers implemented a window manager INSIDE the browser

Because my tabs are below the "url" bar (I don't have a dedicated bar, but OK).

But they split the window in half and put one part above the window controls and one half below the window controls and called the window controls "tabs"

So on one hand it doesn't make sense to have your window split in half

@Cerberus bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=755593

On the other hand, people who use lots of tabs probably click on them a lot and so they have to move the mouse past the url bar to the tab bar, which is more useful but farther away from the main content

it's all part of making sure Firefox looks and behaves identically to Chrome.

Anyway, @Jez, you should try IE, it has the tabs and the URL on the same line, which is actually a pretty good compromise. ducks

lol

or go with oneliner

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yeah, worst of all worlds

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇: wierdly, I prefer that

granted, mainly cause my current main system is a 12 inch subnotebook

@Jez No, actually, I think it's the best of both worlds. because it preserves the proximity of the tab bar while also being as logical as tabs-on-top.

@JourneymanGeek i barely have enough room for tabs in chrome on a widescreen monitor and you want to squash the urlbar in too? bah.

lol

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 tabs-on-top is not more logical.

Anybody have an example of a plural noun (besides children) that doesn't end in s?

referenda

oxen

@KitFox oxen

dammit

boxen

foxen

ok those last two are non-standard :)

or fish

geese

but fish is a whole different kettle of it

mice

feet

@Jez "Please do not remove this possibility! I have been using browsers with tabs on top all my life, and several of my Autohotkey scripts depend on it, not to mention my entire routine. I beg you! I will have to stay with FF 15 forever, and eventually dump Firefox for some fork if this happens. Would make me very, very sad. Don't force unnecessary changes upon us!!"

criteria

My comment.

lol

@Cerberus "I have been using browsers with tabs on top all my life" - huh? then why do you have a problem?

I was about to ask the same thing

Oh shit, I meant at the bottom.

lol

@Jez: also does an omnibar thing, which is neat

and i don't think you can edit Bugzilla comments

@KitFox Nucleus.

@Cerberus Browsers with tabs only started appearing a few years ago.....

lol

@Cerberus you'll just have to put a retraction in all caps

@JourneymanGeek IE is a non-starter for me. despite what MS say, I find it slow. its interface is ugly, its tabbar sucks, and it isn't customizable enough.

I think opera was the first mainstream one

oh, and it's not cross-platform.

@Jez: I'm running FF with a bunch of mods

I've added a correcting comment.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Many years ago.

@Jez Yeah I wasn't really being serious. Though IE 9 has improved a LOT.

@MattЭллен Yeah, that helps!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i was talking about IE9.

also chrome. And i have opera and qtweb as backups

I have my profile set up just the way I want it. With lots of extensions that make it the most productive for me.

I don't want to switch, I really don't.

@Jez Yeah, it's okay. It gets the job done and it is demonstrably faster in some cases that don't matter much, and some cases that do.

@Cerberus OMG I MEANT TABS ON BOTTOM! SORRY!!!!

So I'll just stay with FF 15 forever if they do this.

lol

@MattЭллен Hehe.

By the way, I'm sure some fork will appear with tabs at the bottom, right?

@Cerberus did you turn off automatic updates?

@Cerberus There are not too many viable forks of Firefox, are there?

but seriously, something Mr. Shiny said about is really poignant; "the urlbar is part of the page". that's exactly wrong, and exactly why it should NOT be "inside" the tab. the only thing that is part of the page is its content, and arguable its title (the text in the tab itself)

Turn off? I have never ever had anything update automatically in my life.

i really don't get why people think tabs-on-top is better.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't know what's viable, but there are many.

@Cerberus it's a new feature in FF 15

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇: no real ones. and gecko is oddly uncommon, I can think of one other browser that uses it

@Jez How is the url of the page not part of the page? What is it part of? Why does it make sense for changing the tab to change the stuff above the tab?

@KitFox Ghoti.

But I am warned now.

I will not click yes in the future.

@Cerberus they don't generally like people discussing pro-/anti- in Bugzilla. you should probably go and comment on the thread I started on the mozilla.dev.apps.firefox newsgroup

Link?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 it is part of the browser's user interface. why doesn't it make sense for changing the tab to change stuff above the tab?

(To be honest, I don't really care what people what people and their petty rules on some web forum like...)

People always fall into the bureaucratic trap.

@Jez The url and the page-content go together. Everything about the page should be logically grouped.

@Cerberus groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/…

Thankfully, I don't click the tab bar that often.

I usually switch tabs with mouse gestures.

@Cerberus You may not care, but they may not care to listen to someone who can't be bothered to figure out where the right place is to have a discussion.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, I don't agree. Information about the page can be somewhere in the interface outside the "logical group" that the tab creates.

i'm used to that, and at no point have I thought it feels wrong.

what does feel wrong (or irritating) is having the tab separated from the content

Anyway, @jez, I sympathize, because I used to switch to tabs-on-bottom. And I like having the tabs on bottom because they're closer to the page and I use them more than the url bar. But I switched to tabs on top because of some FF bug with tabs-on-bottom and learned to live with it and in the end the only drawback is my mouse hand gets a tiny, tiny bit more exercise.

For me, it feels wrong that the search box is inside the tab. And also all the other toolbars. They are definitely not part of the page.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 quite.

they're "helpers". technically all of them could be dropped and the page would fundamentally stay intact.

therefore they don't logically need to be grouped with the content.

at the very least, the option to toggle should be maintained.

There was talk of tabbed window managers in Linux, where the browser would essentially nuke its tab features and just have single windows, but the WM would take care of the rest.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 which of course relies on tabs-on-top.

@Jez Yes, but it would make more sense overall

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is their good right.

why do people follow Google's UI lead? this is the same bunch of bastards who say "we can't be bothered to let you remove all the stupid 100 close buttons you have on all your tabs"

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 nothing that would result in tabs-on-top would make more sense.

@Jez Not even if you could put some other application in there as a tab?

@Jez I don't think that is as important an issue as the 'kerfluffle' problem.

@Mitch I apologise on behalf of the English language.

@Mitch kerfuffle kerfuffle kerfuffle. What's all this commotion?

@Cerberus But the Scots language is unrepentant! They may take our lives but they will never take our freedom!

@Cerberus hells no! English don't need to appologise. it's the best

Right...

@Cerberus And you are right to take responsibility and apologize for it. I accept your apology as it is my place to do so.

Thank you.

Now I feel somewhat better.

@MattЭллен Taunting will not be tolerated.

Cerberus is not a voice of the English Language!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Careful now.

He's merely a bystander trying to get a long with it

@MattЭллен exactly. too much typing, not enough talking.

But @jez, if you want to be annoyed with browsers, try writing an HTML5 app for Android. Holy freaking crap is it annoying. It's like trying to support Firefox 15 and IE 3, 4, and 5 all at once.

@Cerberus you posting on the firefox newsgroup?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They can take their curfuffle and fry it up in batter and eat it.

Kerfuffle

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 depends what you mean by Android. there isn't just one browser.

@MattЭллен They ruined the short ones.

@MattЭллен flagged

@MattЭллен A "curfuffle" is a kerfuffle involving dogs.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 at least there's variety there. what's happening with browser interfaces is like the powers that be saying "everybody has to speak Esperanto"

"you can speak a regional accent but it MUST be Esperanto. screw you if you're a 'minority' who doesn't like it, most people do."

@Jez Done.

@MattЭллен the mods will be attracted like flies to your dungheap of a word. like fluff on a kerfluffle.

@Cerberus better than nothing, but the arrogant UX team (Asa Dotzler is the height of arrogance) usually just do what they want

@Jez Oh, I know. There isn't just one browser, there isn't even just one browser on one version of android. I.e. The Samsung Android 2.2 "stock" browser is very different from the Stock Stock Android 2.2 browser. Same for 2.3, etc.

I'll leave you to your Cerberese language and usage chat room. mmmm pizza

I am currently testing on 5 phones: 3 samsung, one google, one motorola, and it comes out as 8 different "stock" browsers/webViews. And that doesn't even factor in Chrome, or FF mobile, or whatever.

Thank you all for your magnanimous support. I'll submit your names to the authorities as references for substantiating the claim that all dictionaries should be fixed to spell it kerfluffle because that's how we all pronounce it anyway.

@Mitch nack

@Jez We'll see.

kerfluffle sounds like what happens when too many puppies get heaped together.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i find it bizarre that Google haven't ported Chrome for android yet. you'd think that would be high on their priority list.

@Jez ??? They totally have

Ported?

In Jelly Bean it's the default and only browser

see, the minimalist Chrome interface is fine for mobile.

what I hate with a passion is bringing that over to my PC.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Only? Hardly.

@Jez Actually, the stock android browser is better IMO. I switched back from chrome.

Also, those authorities will coerce the other authorities to fix their markdown (or whatever they call their little bastardization) so that whatever I mean will be annotated properly.

What the fuff is this all about.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 have they? last i checked i couldn't get it from google Play.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why? I use stock.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Exactly. That's not what it is?

@Cerberus It is. Check out the Nexus 7, which is the only device that shipped with JB

Oh.

@Jez You need ICS or better.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 what android version is ICS?

@Cerberus The main reason was that in Chrome the URL bar stays always visible, while in "Browser" it hides.

@Jez 4.0

I want it hidden!

ah. i'm using 2.3.7.

@Jez what phone?

@Cerberus yeah, me too

guess i'll need cyanogenmod 9.

I use quick controls to access anything, including the url bar.

an htc Desire S

@Jez 10 is almost out

Don't you use quick controls?

@Cerberus the quick controls are also not in chrome

@Cerberus no

They take a short while of getting used to, but they're much better than anything else for single-thumb browsing.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I know.

@Cerberus yeah, I'm sure lots of people like them, but I didn't find it that useful, and sometimes my wife needs to use the phone without screaming in frustration.

Heh.

She can use Chrome.

You nee to give them a try someday.

Hey, now my stock browser keeps crashing when I try to open it!

It's probably dead-open in the background.

This happens to the stock browser sometimes.

Then I need to kill it.

Hm, that never happens to me

Odd.

do you use flash? Do you have plugins auto-enabled?

It only happens infrequently.

I use Flash, but on demand.

@Cerberus I guess.

I don't think I have flash installed anymore.

Isn't this strange?

It could be caused by some other application, I don't know.

Then again, such things happen on all computers.

I have seen people have far worse bugs on Iphones, of course.

Like the entire OS hanging for 5 seconds. And the Apple logo.

Phones should be simple.

Nah-uh!

I need my phone to do cool stuff.

Such as access my desktop through Team Viewer.

And activate the screen without using the power button.

I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone. —Bjarne Stroustrup

my phone is a bit flaky, hangs up sometimes and resets.

but because I installed CM on it, its warranty is voided

I know that one.

so im just hoping it hangs together for another year after which i might get a cheap upgrade or something

@Jez cm7?

@Jez You can reset it to factory settings.

yes

@Cerberus yeah i guess but that's a total PITA

Reflash a stock ROM, remove root access, etc.

Yes, but it can be done.

> For example, we currently offer a Canadian studies course normally, with a 1 sch additional course for students who want to participate in discussions and readings on that topic in Spanish taught by a Spanish instructor.

Does that seem weird to you?

I think it is weird.

Just hard-resetting your phone might solve the hanging, by the way.

"have ya tried turning it off and on again?"

@KitFox Form or content?

@Jez Looks like there's no CM9 yet?

I don't see the connection between Canadian studies and Spanish.

when i used to work on a helpdesk for POS systems, our way of saying that was "have you tried powering down and powering up the unit?"

> with a 1 sch additional course

That part doesn't scan right to me

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 dunno, but i suspect it's a hardware issue

@Jez Well, hard-resetting is no fun, so I thought perhaps you hadn't tried that. But it is still more fun than returning your phone for repairs or replacement.

@Jez Well then. Get a Galaxy Nexus, or wait until the end of the year and get the new phone that I predict Google will announce in Nov.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What is sch anyway? Some kind of credit?

@Cerberus dunno

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Or get the GN in December at an even lower price.

Hopefully.

@Cerberus Yes, if the prices do actually drop... remember you couldn't really find evidence of that.

Indeed.

I'm so happy I got a GN for free :) and the only problem is a couple knicks in the case

But the next Nexus phone is stronger than the next Galaxy.

I can imagine! Who gave it to you anyway?

@Cerberus ?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A stronger reason to lower the price of the old.

@Cerberus My coworker, who got a free upgrade to a GSIII from his carrier

@Cerberus Unless they just stop making it and let the inventory dry up

@Cerberus content.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yeah, i guess they are still legal in the UK. though soon Americans won't have any choice but Apple/MS

@Cerberus This.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Wow. He could have sold the GN for € 250 online.

@Jez Nah, the samsung phones are still for sale.

Or maybe € 200.

I think it's supposed to be "with 1 scheduled additional course"

@Cerberus He thoguht it was too much hassle

Ah, scheduled.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 what happened to the Apple injunction?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 His laziness is your profit!

@Jez That case in only due in 2013 or so, I think.

@Jez for the GN? Google released an OTA update that removed a feature from the phone

Apple hasn't won any other injunctions yet.

And Samsung is bound to file suit against the iphone 5

We should gather some demonstrators and go stand in front of Apple stores around the world.

@Cerberus Good luck with that

It wouldn't be that hard.

I don't understand it, but Apple seems to command some kind of brand loyalty that nobody else does.

And even a handful of demonstrators is very bad publicity, at an A location.

@KitFox The collective plural of balrog is of course balrogath.

@Cerberus Are you kidding? They'd just laugh at you

I don't think so.

We would be hip, young people.

The people inside the shop would hear our shouting.

@Cerberus Protesting a product launch? Nobody would take you seriously

Not a product launch.

Too much of a crowd then. They would drown us out, unless we could muster lots of people.

Arg, why can't I type?

Must instead of muster.

If you were protesting the working conditions of the "slaves" who made the iPhone, fine, but otherwise, what are you protesting? "Stop Apple's patent trolling!"

Yes.

@Cerberus Now if you were trying to mustard a lot of people that might attract attention.

@Cerberus Well, good luck.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 the GN?

Our boards would carry the slogan "Apple, don't be evil".