English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

WMD

03:00

May I ask you what country you live in?

Mahnax

Good evening.

ChairOTP

I try to speak to native speakers when I can, but most of them are not really aware of my mistakes, they actually understand what I mean but they don't tell me what's wrong.

Nile

A big part of it is, instead of learning specific grammar rules, learn and recognize simple fragment structures throughout the language. You may recognize a fragment and learn where it can be incorporated with any sentence and start creating any structures

WMD

@ChairOTP You have to specifically ask them to.

ChairOTP

And I talk to myself because I try to drop my accent, since I have a really marked one. In fact I have two accents, but speaking in one of them is harder for me.

I live in Colombia, South America.

WMD

03:01

Otherwise, if they understand you, they will stay silent out of politeness.

Nile

No body is going to come out and say "You use 'that' not 'this' there"

because I'm trying to drop my accent*

WMD

They might correct you if you specifically ask them to do so.

ChairOTP

Touché

WMD

It's best if it's someone you're really close to - a very good friend, or a girlfriend/boyfriend, or someone like that.

ChairOTP

I wish someone close to me spoke English like a native. But all the people I 'know' that speak English, live either in America or Canada. And I have never been out of my country, I might be going to America next year, and I want to at least make myself clear when I'm there.

tchrist

03:05

Watching movies that are in English may help.

WMD

Can you watch American TV and movies, and try to copy the accents?

tchrist

Is there an echo in here?

ChairOTP

lol

Mahnax

@ChairOTP, where does your username come from?

Cerberus

@ChairOTP Your English looks good!

@WMD Better watch British films!

tchrist

03:07

The hardest thing for a native Spanish speaker trying to speak English is that you have to hold your mouth in a different, looser way.

ChairOTP

I started to watch TV series and I do try to copy the accents, but I also have skyped with people from like all over the world, and I have mixed different accents, I can roll my R's in Spanish but sometimes I don't roll them in English thanks to my friends from the UK.

tchrist

The sounds are different, even when the letters are the same. Aspiration, other things.

Cerberus

@ChairOTP Practising over Skype sounds like a great idea.

tchrist

Pretty much only some Scots roll the r's in English.

ChairOTP

Mahnax, it's from a TV serie.

WMD

03:08

@Cerberus I disagree. Firstly, he/she wishes to travel to America. Secondly, there are too many British accents, all very different from each other. Thirdly, Americans have more difficulty understanding non-American accents than non-Americans have understanding American ones.

Cerberus

@WMD But RP is so much better!

Just watch Downton Abbey or Yes, Minister and you'll be fine.

WMD

But how much of the dialogue in British movies or TV is actually in Received Pronunciation?

Cerberus

In DA, about half.

ChairOTP

I have to agree with British accents are much better in my opinion. But it would be nice to to speak in a 'neutral' accent, if that makes any sense.

tchrist

@ChairOTP In Spanish, it’s a serie, but in English, it’s a series, with a final -s. It doesn’t add anything for the plural: one series, two series.

Cerberus

03:09

In YM, almost all of it.

WMD

I don't think there's such a thing as a neutral accent. I think you should aim for some kind of American accent. Also, find out what the word "rhotic" means.

Nile

@ChairOTP ~~with~~ that British accents are much better*

Cerberus

@ChairOTP I think people will understand you just fine.

ChairOTP

@tchrist thanks for the clarification.

Cerberus

@WMD I can't believe you're saying that!

WMD

03:11

Seriously. Thanks to Hollywood, every English speaker in the world can understand Americans. Not true the other way around.

ChairOTP

@WMD I roll my Rs in some words, as in British, but I don't roll them in words such as "hard, or heir".

I just do it automatically I think.

WMD

Most English speakers don't roll their Rs.

tchrist

@ChairOTP British English doesn’t have rolled r’s.

ChairOTP

@WMD Definitely, I can understand Americans almost 90% of the time, while I have a hard time understanding people that are not from America.

tchrist

There was a generation that flapped them, but that was a long time ago.

Only the Scots roll them.

ChairOTP

03:13

@tchrist I meant as in the word 'British'.

WMD

Try to use your teeth to pronounce R.

tchrist

We may have a difference of definition of "rolled" going on here.

WMD

That occurred to me too.

ChairOTP

By rolling my Rs I mean pronouncing them, correct me if I'm wrong.

tchrist

A rolled r is like in Spanish perro, while a flapped r is like in Spanish pero.

English doesn’t do that.

WMD

03:14

An English R is like neither of those words.

tchrist

I think he is saying rolled when he just means pronounced.

WMD

To say R, put your teeth together, then make a noise as you move them apart. Do not use your tongue.

ChairOTP

That's why I use to not pronounce it in English, because it doesn't sound right to me. Speaking in my original Spanish accent is like a really rusty and very bad pronunciation.

tchrist

Good evening, @Grace.

WMD

If you try to use your tongue to say R, like you would in Spanish, you'll have difficulties with words like "drive", in which the tongue has other work to do.

tchrist

03:16

The English r is an approximant, which is very hard for people to get used to if they are used to it being an actual/proper consonant. It is mostly just a vowel-coloring, in a way.

ChairOTP

When saying 'drive' my tongue takes place in the middle of my teeth and then goes right away back.

tchrist

Ah, you still have dental d's. That is part of the problem.

You need alveolar d's and t's.

Spanish has dental d's and t's. English has alveolar ones.

ChairOTP

Humor me?

tchrist

Your tongue should not be anywhere near your teeth.

WMD

So you end up with an extra bit of sound between the D and the R, right? Very un-English. But if you use your teeth for the R, you can pronounce the D and the R simultaneously, which is how most English speakers do it.

tchrist

03:18

Move the tongue up/back along the top of your mouth, to the bumps further back from the teeth.

The point of articulation is coronal, not dental.

This is an important thing.

ChairOTP

I just did and it does sound totally different. wow

tchrist

Yes, exactly.

Nobody ever tells language-learners these things, and they should.

ChairOTP

So my tongue shouldn't be touching my teeth but my palate?

WMD

OK, so every time you say T or D, make sure your tongue comes nowhere close to your teeth.

tchrist

It’s why Americans sound horrible at Spanish or Italian.

That’s right.

Mahnax

03:20

@ChairOTP I see.

tchrist

The tongue only touches the teeth for the two th sounds.

Not for a t or a d.

Mahnax

OTP = one true pairing [?]

ChairOTP

But Americans have a good thing when it comes to speaking in English and it's that most of them are not ashamed of doing it, most of the people I know here when speaking English get totally embarrassed without anyone telling them whether is right or wrong, and they give up easily.

@Mahn

@Mahnax Yes.

*Spanish

Mahnax

You can edit your last message by pressing the up arrow.

tchrist

I assume you had handle the English th sounds with no trouble?

ChairOTP

03:21

:O

Mahnax

And you can respond to a single chat message by clicking the little gray arrow in its lower right corner.

The arrow will appear when you hover over the message.

ChairOTP

@tchrist My tongue when I pronounce a th, does not touch my teeth, only when I finish pronouncing it.

tchrist

It’s interesting the use to which we have put the verb hover.

WMD

@ChairOTP Then you're pronouncing it wrong.

tchrist

Hold on.

Do you know the Castilian accent? Castilian caza is the th sound from English thirty.

WMD

03:23

Stick your tongue out slightly past your teeth, and touch your top teeth down onto the flat of your tongue. Now breathe between your top teeth and your tongue, to push them apart.

ChairOTP

It's different the position of my tongue when 'the' and 'thi'

tchrist

And Spanish cada has something close to the th sound in English that.

WMD

@ChairOTP I don't think so.

Practise using your breath to separate the tongue and teeth first; when you get good at that, then you can try actually moving the tongue without breathing so forcefully.

tchrist

Try to say Spanish cada casa caza as a Castilian would, and you will get both th sounds of English.

ChairOTP

My thirsty is like you say, my tongue does slip out a bit from my teeth.

WMD

03:25

Good to do this in front of a mirror.

@ChairOTP Good. Just practise that lots.

And don't be embarrassed if you spit a little while you're practising it.

ChairOTP

I only get embarrassed when I can't pronounce a word.

Like undoubtedly, I couldn't pronounce the 'bt' but then I achieved it.

WMD

Practice "toothbrush" and "toothpaste" - those are hard because your tongue has to retreat back into your mouth, quickly after the "th".

tchrist

Where does a bt sound occur?

WMD

subterranean.

tchrist

Well, yes.

But not in debt or doubt.

obtain

ChairOTP

03:27

then how would you say 'undoubtedly'?

WMD

without the B.

ChairOTP

btw, my ts are marked as well.

tchrist

Not in subtle.

WMD

What do you mean "marked"?

tchrist

The b is silent in words like subtle, subtly, debt, indebted, doubt, undoubtedly.

WMD

03:28

Remember to touch your tongue to your palate not your teeth for T, as well as D.

ChairOTP

For instance, 'water' my tongue does not touch my teeth nor my palate.

WMD

Does it touch anything?

There are speakers of English who pronounce "water" without using their tongues, but I don't recommend emulating such an accent.

ChairOTP

No, it's just standing mid-air

tchrist

This is important: In the American accent, the T or D in English water, subtle, kitty, latter, ladder, raider, bottom, bottle, added is essentially the same as the R is Spanish pero.

Cerberus

I would say the Spanish r trills a bit more.

ChairOTP

03:32

While I'm used to say those words as in 'tela'. Once again, from my UK friends.

Cerberus

Depends on the accent perhaps.

tchrist

I’d say that American English "Here kitty kitty kitty!" has the same flap as a Spanish rooster going quiquiriquí.

WMD

@Cerberus I don't believe so. Remember that pero and perro are two different words.

ChairOTP

I agree.

Because people get really confused with my accent sometimes, when I had never spoken to any native English speaker, I always wondered what kind of accent I had. And when I finally could talk to one, they told me that my accents are mixed, sometimes I sound British, some times French, once time even German, which I have never heard in my whole life.

tchrist

@ChairOTP The problem with using the T from tela is that it is dental one in Spanish, and that is the wrong one. It should be more like the flap R in pero when it is between vowels like that. At the beginning of the word, it is aspirated.

ChairOTP

03:39

@tchrist I think I can do it as you say, like pero, but I think I have to practice a lot because I have to be aware of each t in every word now.

tchrist

It’s the middle-of-the-word t’s that are like that. The ones at the start of a word are stronger, with a puff of air. A word like tatter or twitter has both of them.

Cerberus

Or just use the RP t.

tchrist

RP isn’t going to do him much good in North America.

Cerberus

Sure it is.

ChairOTP

RP?

Cerberus

03:41

The distinction between t and d alone is a benefit!

tchrist

You’re just being hoity-toity.

No, it is not a benefit when it is not the way people talk.

Cerberus

Received Pronunciation

Received Pronunciation (RP) is the standard accent of Standard English in Great Britain, with a relationship to regional accents similar to the relationship in other European languages between their standard varieties and their regional forms. RP is defined in the Concise Oxford Dictionary as "the standard accent of English as spoken in the south of England", although some have argued that it can be heard from native speakers throughout England and Wales. Although there is nothing intrinsic about RP that marks it as superior to any other variety, sociolinguistic factors have given Receiv...

tchrist

He already has enough trouble with his T’s. I’m giving him an easy way out.

Cerberus

Taught in most countries where they don't speak English, I believe.

tchrist

No, actually, American English is.

ChairOTP

03:42

Guys, chill out. No need to fight.

tchrist

As that is the language of Business.

ChairOTP

I can try what both of you suggest and see what fits best for me.

Cerberus

RP is the prestige accent.

@ChairOTP It doesn't really matter, both are fine. I was just trying rile up Tchrist a bit.

tchrist

We know how important that is.

Cerberus

We know how easy it is.

tchrist

03:44

I can fix that for you.

Cerberus

*he

ChairOTP

I think you're fighting over nothing. The point where I want to get is to be understood, it doesn't matter if it's with the RP English or the English tchrist is trying to explain, I just want to be understood.

tchrist

0

A: How did the letter Z become to be associated with sleeping/snoring?

Seemzz perhaps sleep should be represented as "Oooo" rather than "Zzzz". O's as balloons of dreams.

Is that an answer? Really?

ChairOTP

hahaha it's funny though.

tchrist

Which makes it a comment, not an answer.

Cerberus

03:46

@ChairOTP I really think you will be understood well enough! And your accent will improve quickly as you move.

tchrist

You know, your written English is really very good. When it doubt, just write it down. :)

Cerberus

You could post a recording of yourself here...

And what he says.

WMD

I think you can use the same T everywhere. Using different Ts at the beginnings of words from what you use in the middle is probably not worth it. If you say a T, people will understand a T, even if it's not identical to their own T.

tchrist

After all, that’s why a lot of people in this chat sound normal: because we don’t have to listen to them. :)

Cerberus

@WMD Exactly.

tchrist

03:48

The T in the middle of the word is the same as the one in the middle of middle.

Or of pero.

WMD

But if you say T, not D, you will still be understood.

tchrist

If it is written, yes.

ChairOTP

I could post a recording of myself, but maybe later? I can't right now.

Cerberus

No anywhere.

tchrist

Don’t do it for middle.

Cerberus

03:48

Nonsense.

tchrist

Wrong.

WMD

Yeah, not for middle.

Cerberus

@ChairOTP OK would be interesting.

Mahnax

I'm just stopping by for a break from my homework.

Cerberus

@tchrist Not if you mean the word "middle", d'oh. But in the middle of a word, between vowels.

ChairOTP

03:49

You know I'm gonna record my reading of the Hamlet soliloquy I've been practising these days :P

Mahnax

How are you all?

Cerberus

@ChairOTP Yay!

@Mahnax Lo!

And behold!

ChairOTP

@Mahnax do you know what TV series my name comes from, right?

WMD

@ChairOTP To be or not to be, etc?

Mahnax

@ChairOTP I don't really watch television.

Gossip Girl?

Cerberus

03:51

I have no idea either.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Hi!

ChairOTP

@WMD Yes, I memorized it till ...that patient merit of the unworthy takes.

Mahnax

Lo : hi :: low : high

Cerberus

@ChairOTP Antiques Roadshow?

@Mahnax Oh haha.

Wi?

ChairOTP

@Cerberus @Mahnax No it's from Gossip Girl. I started watching it trying to copy one of the character's accent.

Cerberus

03:53

Ah OK.

Mahnax

2 mins ago, by Mahnax

Gossip Girl?

ChairOTP

My bad.

Cerberus

You're a prophet, nay, a seer.

Mahnax

I searched for Chair OTP and it returned some things from Tumblr that were tagged chuck, blair, and gossip girl.

It wasn't hard…

Cerberus

Cheater...

Mahnax

03:54

I was just too lazy to look before.

ChairOTP

Google has all the answers.

Cerberus

I searched for Antiques Roadshow.

Mahnax

I do declare that this aftershave lotion smells lovely.

Cerberus

As long as you don't use too much of it!

Mahnax

Yeah, then it's overpowering.

tchrist

03:55

What would you need aftershave lotion for? :)

Smelling salts?

ChairOTP

I don't use aftershave lotion.

Cerberus

Many people use too much of a cologne or scent.

tchrist

Alas.

fragrance

Cerberus

You should only just be able to smell it if you're close to somebody.

Mahnax

People at school just spray Axe™ everywhere.

ChairOTP

03:56

Too much cologne suffocates me

Mahnax

Axe™ is disgusting.

tchrist

Yes, they do.

Hm, what is it called in England?

It has a different name there.

Cerberus

@tchrist You can't make me stray from the U path!

ChairOTP

You can smell good without emptying out the entire bottle in one spray.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Ahhhh.

Mahnax

03:57

Axe is only good for flamethrowers.

ChairOTP

^

Cerberus

I never use anything.

tchrist

Lynx.

They call it Lynx.

ChairOTP

Lemon

lols

tchrist

@Cerberus I may have to reassess.

Cerberus

03:58

Reassess your cognitive abilities?

Good luck.

tchrist

Axe (brand)

Axe (or Lynx in Ireland, the United Kingdom and Australasia) is a brand of male grooming products, owned by the British–Dutch company Unilever and marketed towards the young males demographic. History Axe was launched in France in 1983 by Unilever. It was inspired by another of Unilever's brands, Impulse. Unilever were keen to capitalize on Axe's French success and the rest of Europe from 1985 onwards, later introducing the other products in the range. Unilever were unable to use the name Axe in the United Kingdom and Ireland due to trademark problems so it was launched as Lynx. Th...

I figured you were one of those smelly nellies.

Cerberus

shields eyes

@tchrist Excuse me? You're insane.

Mahnax

Huh, I didn't know that nelly meant that.

Cerberus

I'm not coming close to you!

WMD

Lynx smells like very cheap fragrance. At least it's honest.

Mahnax

03:59

I thought it just meant "a silly person".

Cerberus

This ocean isn't there for nothing!

tchrist

Don’t point that thing at me unless you plan to use it.

ChairOTP

I got lost.

tchrist

@Mahnax Meant what? :)

@ChairOTP What is the name of this room?

Cerberus

I'm not pointing with it, just at it. It's blue and soothing. Well, green and polluted. Bu anyway.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…