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00:06
And do-support
> The volunteers unloading the military supplies are friends from the Ukrainian film and television industry — a longhair bunch of cinematographers, gaffers, set decorators and marketing strategists.
@tchrist it's expected that the source influence is Welsh and not Irish because of the close contact between Saxons and Welsh.
What does longhair mean there?
But
Do-support really didn't become popular until early modern English. So the connection isn't established well
I'm still waiting.
00:09
@tchrist hippies?
Bohemian leaning?
Artists?
@Mitch Czechs?
Or maybe Longhair is what they used to call professorial types?
People who don't have to strap down in suit and tie?
@tchrist the American meaning of bohemian meaning alternate nontraditional lifestyle
@Mitch Gay?
00:12
I don't think that's the primary meaning but it could include that. What is more likely is just 'hippie'
Alternate nontraditional lifestyle is gay, surely?
Or maybe they won't get crew cuts and wear suit and tie?
Surely they're not hobos.
Probably really means the latter
Bohemian that is.
Longhair I think is more like an academic?
Or artistic. r at least that is the impression I'm getting from the context
@tchrist hobos surely are following a nontraditional lifestyle
Seems pejorative.
I don't think Longhair is pejorative
And bohemian probably not anymore
> informal, often derogatory A person with long hair or characteristics associated with it, such as a hippy.
00:16
They spell hippie weird
Like they're some kind of bohemian
The children never but use hippy in a negative way.
I saw Apollo 10 1/2 last night
Basically 1970 nostalgia
To them it means a dumb person who doesn't wash and spends all their time stoned on homegrown.
@Mitch My Gilgamesh year.
And they used 'hippie' ... Well... Not pejoratively but...
As 'not ideal'
Like if they wore bell-bottoms
But then in 1970 those were the only kind of pants sold
@tchrist you went on a quest with a drunk friend?
Too young for male-pattern baldness.
@Mitch I learned that I would die.
00:20
Oh.
Most people don't learn that
I know I havent
Most people aren't GIlgamesh.
I'll be on my death bed and I'll be so confident that I'll pull through
"why is every body crying? I'll get over this"
...which I type through blinking my left eye
Late last night I learned that yet another person of my acquaintance succumbed to covid. I stayed at her house for a week twice, "long" ago.
Service not till the end of this month. I'm not going.
COVID man
Really uncool
"Don't worry. It's only Omicron."
00:24
There are breaks in the swells where it's 'safe' to visit
But I think the next one is ramping up
@tchrist I'm so sorry to hear it.
Why do I not know anybody?
We've had enough infections in Holland.
All of my aunts and uncles are pretty old.
 
1 hour later…
01:56
Wow, I got there quickly.
I was extremely lucky with my 19th guess, it was completely arbitrary.
02:48
Ah the rule I learnt in my school. It's been a long time. I must have forgotten it with time.

Anyway, can we say "........................ since 4 o clock"
I must have solved today's Worldle!
Wordle 295 3/6

🟩⬜🟩🟨⬜
🟩🟩🟩⬜🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
It was so easy!
 
3 hours later…
05:30
@tchrist you've been verbing? How dare you
 
2 hours later…
07:49
Indoor humidity 7%
My lips can feel it.
 
5 hours later…
12:35
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive body detected (46): Question about Dog and Dog's female‭ by Talha Tayyab‭ on english.SE
13:09
Je vote aux présidentielles depuis 1981.
13:19
@jlliagre You and me both. :)
Hmm I think, in Dutch, you could use either the present or the present perfect, in that case.
@CowperKettle The constructions exist in Spanish and Portuguese, but they don't really "sound" right. He estado votando para presidente desde 1981 won't show up in Spanish unless someone is a bad translator from English. Voto para presidente desde 1981 in the simple present would be fine (with yo in Spanish or eu in Portuguese not strictly necessary). The Brazilians would likely add the pronoun. It's possible to use the perfect here though: He votado para presidente desde 1981.
> Ik stem sinds 2002.
> Ik heb sinds 2002 gestemd.
In Spanish you can use indeed use either. Just not the full-blown present perfect progressive. That's not illegal but seems specialized.
We don't really have a progressive in Dutch.
13:23
French doesn't either. Spanish and Italian and Portuguese use the gerund for the progressives.
Well, I suppose we do, but one only uses it rarely, to really emphasise that, yes, I am busy doing it right now.
French likes to be on the train for those. :)
@CowperKettle Hmm looks a bit heavy.
@tchrist I suppose so, or use en + participe du présent?
Or is that only used in a 'subordinate' way?
I.e. without être.
@Cerberus Yes. Consider English "He came running", with came meaning arrived, got here. I believe that French could use Il est venu en courant, where Spanish or Portuguese would just use the gerund like Spanish (Él) vino/llegó corriendo or Portuguese (Ele) veio/chegou correndo.
(Or Il vint en courant in the simple past instead of the present perfect in written French.)
È venuto correndo. for Italian.
@CowperKettle Pretty bad, nothing like Bucha and other places.
@tchrist Yes, and I remember from high school that there was this rule about when you should use en and when not.
13:37
That depends on just what "disabled" entails here.
There almost always is.
You can even replace the disabled entrail.
@Cerberus I seem to recall a lot of en faisant exercises from way back then. You can use clitics with those.
Maybe like Il a maîtrisé le métier en le faisant.
> Le gérondif lijk heel erg op le participe présent.

Het verschil is dat je le gérondif gebruikt je als beide zinsdelen, hoofdzin en bijzin, hetzelfde onderwerp hebben en als de acties in beide zinsdelen gelijktijdig. Je herkent het gérondif omdat er ‘en’ voor het onvoltooid deelwoord staat.
So it is called gérondif when preceded by en.
What is the name of those small airplanes which have a fan in front of them? And there's no engines on its wings like passenger flights.
You use en when it is the subject of the sentence that is doing the action in the participle as well, and when it happens at the same time as the main verb.
13:43
Where to put the clitic varies by language. Spanish puts it on the end of the gerund: Dominó el trabajo haciéndolo . Portuguese is more apt to use an infinitive construction with a preposition. Dominou o trabalho ao fazê-lo.
But Portuguese can place the clitic in front of the infinitive like French does, not just tack it on the end like Spanish. I don't know if the propensity varies by continent.
Meanwhile I find the election nerve wrecking.
@Cerberus I can't look.
We cannot have her as présidente.
It's just unthinkable to me. But I've said that before. With our own election. And it was.
At least parliament can stop her from doing crazy things until June.
And, after that, who knows.
> Macron’s lead over Le Pen in second-round polls is much narrower than it was five years ago, with one poll this week placing it with within the margin of error.
@tchrist Yes, that came rather unexpectedly.
But I think the French system is more stable: no winner-take-all states.
So it can't swing as much as the American system.
13:51
The shock of learning the result in the morning was as stunning as learning that your boss has unexpectedly expired overnight. Or worse.
I do think De Gaulle got it wrong and a presidential system has more problems than it is worth.
@tchrist So I can imagine.
I think Brexit was the bigger shock to us.
But same idea.
We got used to Brexit eventually.
In practice, I think it makes the E. U. function more smoothly.
Much less obstructionism.
Various things are moving faster now.
And England is still a close ally when it comes to really important things.
It won't cosy up to Putin.
I remember exactly where I was when I learned of Brexit's passage. In that moment I saw a flash of the shock American election result. The Zeitgeist blew an ill wind around the world entire.
Meaning, I immediately imagined that Brexit passage meant that Donald would win. Together they augured the West's dissolution, the passing of America as anything estimable.
I was sad for future generations. I still am.
Well, we seem to have been glued back together.
There are no easy solutions to a system that allows a populist shithead to be elected and destroy the system from within.
Right, that is a problem.
13:57
The Romans knew this. Hence two consuls at a time, and for only a year.
But when there's an emergency, all bets are off.
Their dictatorships seemed to work well enough for a long time?
Would it help if the Confederation split off?
@Cerberus The West seems more capable of recognizing Putin's attacks when they come with mass murder .
Then the remainder could be like a big Canada.
@tchrist Yes, that has certainly helped.
Not everyone in the West yet recognizes that Putin's war is against the West not just against Ukraine.
Russia stands no chance against the West, never has.
But we must not let him takes nibbles out of us.
14:10
Democracy constitutes an existential threat to autocracy. No brutality is off the table under that threat. Tiananmen Square isn't that long ago.
@CowperKettle Yes, but also against the East.
Basically against anyone who could stand in his way.
I believe, at first, he wanted to defeat opponents one by one, preferably not all at once.
And he felt that maybe he could divide the world between Germany and England.
But probably only temporarily.
Germany had a huge population, economy, industry, education system, and discipline.
She was a formidable enemy.
And Europe was divided.
Yes, before the War, there was some sympathy for fascism in England.
Haha.
That could be in a comedy.
I sometimes think that fascism gets used to mean brutal suppression of dissent against the regime in power.
Many -isms and -ies are abused.
Because those who hold fasces brook no dissent against their power.
Suppression is part of fascism.
14:20
Probably not the only part?
No, indeed.
An -ism is a movement or phaenomenon in which the root word is central, is of the greatest importance, probably much greater than it should be.
Fascism = Powerism?
Fascism glorifies power and violence.
Without the glorification, it's just a violent or authoritariam régime: it is true that any authoritarian régime is ipso facto a bit fascist, but not wholly so.
@tchrist je suis en train de voter depuis 1981 would be very weird, like someone being stuck in front of the same voting box for decades. J'ai toujours voté depuis 1981 would work.
One could see 'fascist' as a property that can be applicable to various degrees; but we only call a régime fascist when the degree is high enough, when certain important aspects hold.
14:26
> Historian Robert Paxton observes that one of the main problems in defining fascism is that it was widely mimicked. Paxton says: "In fascism's heyday, in the 1930s, many regimes that were not functionally fascist borrowed elements of fascist decor in order to lend themselves an aura of force, vitality, and mass mobilization."
Sure, it can apply in degrees.
> Roger Griffin identifies the core of fascism as being palingenetic ultranationalism.
Sarah Palin, eat your heart out.
I think that overlooks the heart of the word.
Nationalism is indeed important, but that isn't enough.
And doesn't nationalism always try to portray the nation as an ancient force?
Fascism, totalitarianism, autocracy, dictatorship.
Those are different things.
Perhaps the last two are the same.
14:40
@Vikas Yes, you can say I’ve been working on my homework since 4 o’clock.
The key is that since takes a point in time, not a durative period.
@CowperKettle Quite artistic.
15:02
@CowperKettle Did they get him now?
@tchrist Okay. I guess since is used for definite time, that's what we were taught in school IIRC
@jlliagre I try to think of en train de working like when in English you're "right in the middle" of doing something or other. "I can't talk to you right now, I'm right in the middle of making diner and I can't let things burn."
Where here "right" has that odd intensifier meaning it can sometimes take on as a sort of adverbial modifier.
So the French en train de isn't a general substitute for progressive verb forms in other languages. It has a more focused meaning.
> This interest during medieval times also found expression in events such as feasts of misrule, riotous parties in which workers were temporarily treated like kings and lords like commoners.
Io Saturnalia, anyone?
This is why the players in Monty Python and the Holy Grail are savaged by a killer rabbit.
> These events didn’t seek to seriously challenge the social hierarchy, but instead acted as a kind of escapism for both the people in power and the powerless. The visual idea of rabbits slaying those who normally hounded them can therefore be seen as a metaphor for this role reversal; a form of anarchism in miniature.
> The idea of the world turned upside down appealed to artists because it offered them a chance to safely rebel, at least on a small scale, against the severe inequalities of the feudal systems of their age.
I wonder how much of that accounts for the odd customs of Saturnalia.
Not that Rome was feudal. But certainly it was dominated by differences in the classes, with little movement between those.
I bet Putin misses Russia having its serfs.
> These events were certainly Carnival-like in their theatrical display of mockery and mayhem but not necessarily celebrated immediately before Lent. Many were observed around December or January. Among these festivities were the Feast of Fools (rooted in the Roman Saturnalia), the Feast of the Ass, the customs of the Boy Bishop, the Lord of Misrule or the Abbot of Unreason and, to an extent, Charivari.
So yes, those were indeed Saturnalia reïcarnate, if ever it truly left.
> This was not a matter of rebellion or revolution by the oppressed masses (as some moderns/post-moderns who have a poor opinion of the European Middle Ages might want to instantly conclude) – why, those in power would willingly and happily abdicate their seats. The tragic part is that many of these festivities eventually died out because they would lead to violence, wild drunkenness and sexual licence.
Isn't throwing a party always at risk of wild drunkenness?
> These festivals are fascinating, because their human meaning was at once powerfully felt in them–people threw themselves into these feasts with gusto–and yet also enigmatic. The enigma is particularly strong for us moderns, in that the festivals were not putting forward an alternative to the established order, in anything like the sense we understand in modern politics, that is, presenting an antithetical order of things which might displace the prevailing dispensation.
> The mockery was enframed by an understanding that betters, superiors, virtue, ecclesial charisma, etc. ought to rule; the humour was in that sense not ultimately serious…As she [Natalie Davis] points out, this mockery was exercised very much in support of the ruling moral values.
Well, that's a bit of a shame.
Mocking the ruling moral values somehow supported them?
Oh, by showing how silly inverting them was, maybe.
I have no opinion on the morality of what rabbits do on their own time, just so long as they do their timeless duty of fleeing the lord's hounds on the hunt.
> For example, a boyar named Ivan Buturlin was forever known as "the Polish King" because he played the enemy in a mock battle at Preobrazhenskoye, while Fyodor Romodanovsky was first known as "King of Pressburg" and then as "Prince-Caesar".
@CowperKettle It does sound like the merrymaking got out of hand there.
> In January 1695, just three years after the election of Nikita Zotov as "Prince-Pope", Peter refused to partake in a traditional Russian Orthodox ceremony of having holy water sprinkled over his head during the Epiphany Ceremony.[8] Instead, Peter and the Synod celebrated their own version of the Russian folk custom of sviatki, with partying, drinking, and even eroticism.
> Floret silva nobilis
floribus et foliis.
ubi est antiquus meus amicus?
hinc equitavit.
eia, quis me amabit?
Looking around for an old friend is a familiar theme.
> Sedia-m'eu na ermida de Sam Simion
E cercarom-mi as ondas, que grandes son;
Eu atendendo o meu amigo,
Eu atendendo o meu amigo!
Although the Latin antedates the Galician there.
> Oh - oh, totus floreo,
iam amore virginali
totus ardeo,
novus, novus amor est,
quo pereo.

Tempore brumali
vir patiens,
animo vernali
lasciviens.

Oh - oh, totus floreo,
iam amore virginali
totus ardeo,
novus, novus amor est,
quo pereo.
Perish the thought, all you frolicking bunnies!
Yes, it's bad Latin. But they were drunk.
Anyone frolicking in the Ukrainian forests during the paschal season is apt to get their butts frozen off. Or shot off.
Oh, the Russian Svyatki is nativity season not lenten season. Colder by far.
So much more Saturnalia than anything primaveral let alone with "animo vernali".
Peter's practices still sound lasciviens to me.
If you can't decide whether the year ends-and-renews at the solstice or at the equinox, might as well throw grand parties for both.
I have friends who named their new puppy Ostara because they got her during Eastermonth.
16:38
> Quam mihi mittebas Saturni tempore lancem,
‪      Misisti dominae, Sextiliane, tuae;
Et quam donabas dictis a Marte Kalendis,
‪      De nostra prasina est synthesis empta toga.
Iam constare tibi gratis coepere puellae:
‪      Muneribus futuis, Sextiliane, meis.
~~ The dish which you were wont to present to me, Sextilianus, at the Saturnalia, you have bestowed on your mistress: and with the price of my toga, which you used to give me on the first of March, you have bought her a green dinner robe. Your mistresses now begin to cost you nothing; you enjoy them at my expense. ~~
Better Latin, more wit. :)
16:49
This is from the same wit whose Alexi Epigram gave us O tree, favourite of the gods, tree of the great Caesar, fear not the axe nor the impious fire. You may hope for the glory of an ever-verdant foliage; you were not planted by Pompeian hands.
> O dilecta deis, o magni Caesaris arbor,
‪      ne metuas ferrum sacrilegosque focos.
perpetuos sperare licet tibi frondis honores:
‪      non Pompeianae te posuere manus.
Apparently Caesar planted trees on the Cordovan plains.
(Per Epigram LXI.)
It reads like some paean to the Baetica.
Complete with golden fleece.
Well, metallically fleeced sheep, at least.
With Bacchus (Lyaeus) and Pan, and dryads and fauns, desporting themselves.
Full text here, from parent here.
I have no complete translation into English at ready for his entire work. You can find limited translations of some of them, usually neglecting the "naughty" ones.
> Lord Byron lavished four memorable stanzas on the classical education of Don Juan in the first canto of his epic satire. After cataloguing authors such as Catullus and Ovid, whose indecencies served to corrupt his adolescent hero, the poet asks:

And then what proper person can be partial
To all those nauseous epigrams of Martial?
> The following stanza describes an expurgated edition of Martial, from which “the grosser parts” had been removed, only to be put in an appendix, “which saves,” says Byron, “the trouble of an index.”

Prurient youths in the first half of the twentieth century had access to Martial through the Latin-English version in the Loeb Classical Library, which in the English text scrupulously rendered the numerous obscenities into Italian and thereby made them no less conspicuous than all the verses conveniently assembled in an appendix in Byron’s day.
That's from a New York Review of Martial's Epigrams: A Selection “translated from the Latin and with an introduction by Garry Wills’.
Haha: scrupulously rendered the numerous obscenities into Italian
Well, that'll protect the boys, now won't it!
"Pardon my Italian"
Like the silly "pardon my French".

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