English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

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tchrist

20:01

> Ukraine gives medal to soldier who told Russian warship to ‘go fuck yourself’: Roman Hrybov, released in a prisoner swap, was stationed on Snake Island when he told a Russian invader to ‘go fuck yourself’.

I didn’t know that Rome even had rye-boys!

Rand al'Thor

Congratulations @NVZ and @Laurel!

tchrist

"ELU Election ends 5 minutes ago" definitely has a tense problem.

Robusto supports Ukraine

20:47

@tchrist So is Yoichi still with us? He hasn't been seen in more than a month. He has to be at least 93 now.

tchrist

@RobustosupportsUkraine I do not know.

Mitch

@tchrist It's the future past tense, well used by time travelers.

Robusto supports Ukraine

@tchrist Do you know if he ever performed any mod tasks?

tchrist

@RobustosupportsUkraine I do.

Robusto supports Ukraine

Well?

tchrist

20:49

Our site says he was last seen Last seen Oct 27, 2021 at 1:54 our time.

@RobustosupportsUkraine Yes, he has performed mod tasks.

Robusto supports Ukraine

Not within 5 months he hasn't.

tchrist

Every time I go digging for him he's still alive somewhere, but it's been a while since my last search.

@RobustosupportsUkraine Necessarily.

Robusto supports Ukraine

I hope he's all right, but he was a poor choice for mod.

tchrist

He's handled over 1,000 flags. Every little bit does help. But we mostly have never had more than 3 active ELU mods at once. Ever.

Cerberus

21:18

@tchrist 697?

I need to read it slowly, word by word...

Koppa (letter)

Koppa or qoppa (Ϙ, ϙ; as a modern numeral sign: ϟ) is a letter that was used in early forms of the Greek alphabet, derived from Phoenician qoph (𐤒). It was originally used to denote the /k/ sound, but dropped out of use as an alphabetic character in favor of Kappa (Κ). It has remained in use as a numeral symbol (90) in the system of Greek numerals, although with a modified shape. Koppa is the source of Latin Q, as well as the Cyrillic numeral sign of the same name (Koppa). == Alphabetic == In Phoenician, qoph was pronounced [q]; in Greek, which lacked such a sound, it was instead used for /k/...

> It has remained in use as a numeral symbol (90) in the system of Greek numerals

Shouldn't it be ennenaconta, though?

I'm not good with Greek.

Mitch

@Cerberus conta? how do you get from koppa to conta?

@Cerberus In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Robusto supports Ukraine

Cold-Calling Russians To Discuss The War

►

This is just like those videos of people trying to talk actual sense with Trump supporters.

Cerberus

21:35

@Mitch You don't: the name of the sign representing 90 happens to be called qoppa, but I think it is probably unrelated to the suffix -konta which is used to turn e.g. 5 into 50.

Mitch

oh. I get it.

sort of

Cerberus

Heh.

Mitch

so you're saying it should be

koppa instead of ennenconta?

Cerberus

Greek had several different numeral systems, and one was somewhat weird.

Mitch

Irish is awful for numbers

Cerberus

21:37

Somewhat similar to Roman numerals, but I think weirder.

Robusto supports Ukraine

@Cerberus Is konta used in the term pentekonter, the name for a type of Athenian ship?

Cerberus

@Mitch Only the letter qoppa could be used to represent 90: you would not actually pronounce 90 as "qoppa", just as a Roman would not pronounce the number XI as "Ix I", but rather as "undecim".

@RobustosupportsUkraine My guess would be yes!

Let me look it up.

Yup!

Robusto supports Ukraine

Yay!

Mitch

@Cerberus So in numerals it'd be written {26 letter of greek alphabet} {qoppa} {eta} but pronounced 'hecato ennenconta heptem' (or close enough for jazz)?

In Irish there are three sets of cardinal numbers 1-10: abstract, general, and ordinal, and in abstract you lenide the consonant of the following noun from 7 to 10, but in general from 6 to 10 it's eclipsis. And then for the teens you say something like 5 sheep and ten for 15 sheep.

It's a mess

Cerberus

@Mitch Ehh my Greek numerals are a bit mouldy.

Mitch

21:47

Also I'm not sure those facts are right but whatever the actual details, it's just as messy

@Cerberus Gross. Use a bleach spray or leave out in the sun

and then there's compass directions (in Irish) I think north-west and north are the same word (and a bunch of others like that). How do you know where you're going?

Cerberus

You either use the system where a is 1, b is 2, c is 3, etc., then use extra diaritics to signify tens, so a' is probably 10, and then you probably add them up: that is one system. The other one is more similar to Roman numerals, I think qoppa would be used in that system. So pi is 5, I think from penta.

Probably. Or something.

They could be combined into neat figures.

Mitch

Oh. I thought the greek numerals were a 1, b 2, c 3... i 9 j 10, k 20, l 30... r 90, s 100, t 200.

Cerberus

You may be right, I think I got that partly wrong.

I mean, Greek doesn't even have c...

This is one example of the two systems.

But I suspect there are more variations.

Oh, 900 is sampi, such a funny sign.

I had forgotten all about it.

Mitch

22:31

@Laurel Hi. Are you officially executing your authorities as mod now?

Any new proclamations?

Edicts?

Writs?

Nolle prosequi's?

Cerberus

Congratulations!

Feeds

22:46

tchrist has added Matt E. Эллен to the list of this room's owners.

tchrist

‭ ʹ  0374       GREEK NUMERAL SIGN
        = dexia keraia
        * indicates numeric use of letters
        x (modifier letter acute accent - 02CA)
        : 02B9 modifier letter prime
‭ ͵  0375       GREEK LOWER NUMERAL SIGN
        = aristeri keraia
        * indicates numeric use of letters
        x (modifier letter low acute accent - 02CF)

Cerberus

The right sign and the left sign, makes sense.

tchrist

Are they used in pairs like quotes?

Doesn't look like it.

Oh my these are quite different.

Compare:

U+0374 ‹ʹ› \N{GREEK NUMERAL SIGN}
    \w \pL \p{Lm}
    All Any Alnum Alpha Alphabetic Assigned InGreek ID_Continue
       Is_IDC Case_Ignorable CI Changes_When_NFKC_Casefolded CWKCF
       Common Zyyy Comp_Ex Full_Composition_Exclusion Dia Diacritic
       CompEx L Lm Gr_Base Grapheme_Base Graph GrBase
       Greek_And_Coptic IDC ID_Start IDS Letter Modifier_Letter
       Print Word XID_Continue XIDC XID_Start XIDS X_POSIX_Alnum
       X_POSIX_Alpha X_POSIX_Graph X_POSIX_Print X_POSIX_Word
    Age=1.1 Age=V1_1 Bidi_Class=ON Bidi_Class=Other_Neutral BC=ON

With:

U+0375 ‹͵› \N{GREEK LOWER NUMERAL SIGN}
    \pS \p{Sk}
    All Any Assigned Greek Is_Greek InGreek Case_Ignorable CI Dia
       Diacritic Sk S Gr_Base Grapheme_Base Graph GrBase Grek
       Greek_And_Coptic Modifier_Symbol Print Symbol X_POSIX_Graph
       X_POSIX_Print
    Age=1.1 Age=V1_1 Bidi_Class=ON Bidi_Class=Other_Neutral BC=ON
       Block=Greek Block=Greek_And_Coptic BLK=Greek
       Canonical_Combining_Class=0
       Canonical_Combining_Class=Not_Reordered CCC=NR
       Canonical_Combining_Class=NR Decomposition_Type=None DT=None

So no, they're used completely differently.

The first is a General_Category=Modifier_Letter and the second is a General_Category=Modifier_Symbol.

Cerberus

23:01

I've no idea, really.

We were taught about the various numerals only once, very briefly.

We do see the alphabetic numerals in e.g. editions of the Iliad.

tchrist

The first is in Script=Common and the second is in Script=Greek.

There's surely a story there, but I don't know it.

The first has a compatibility decomposition form that turns it into a simple MODIFIER LETTER PRIME for pattern-matching and such.

You can detect that it's got one of those because of its Changes_When_NFKC_Casefolded property.