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12:51 AM
@Mitch I believe Macron echoed the use of emmerder by an older politician? But the article does not mention it.
I.e. he wished to mirror this old politician in himself.
 
1:17 AM
@Cerberus That other politician was Georges Pompidou, at the time Prime Minister under Charles de Gaulle presidency, and privately talking to the young Jacques Chirac in 1966: "Mais arrêtez donc d'emmerder les Français ! Il y a trop de lois, trop de textes, trop de règlements dans ce pays ! On en crève ! Laissez-les vivre un peu et vous verrez que tout ira mieux ! Foutez-leur la paix ! Il faut libérer ce pays !"
 
@jlliagre Right!
I knew it.
What is 'crève'?
 
we are dying of it
 
OK.
If he wanted to draw attention to his campaign, it worked.
 
Definitely
 
H'e still doing all right in the polls, isn't he?
 
1:22 AM
He does, especially as the political parties to both his right and his left are very divided.
 
1:42 AM
Yeah.
 
@jlliagre Good catch. That's kind of a long time ago... is that anecdote something that is well known in France?
@Cerberus a flat tire is 'un pneu crevé'. so sort of 'We're being crushed by it'
I thought the stronglanguage article was fun because of how different languages (and newspapers) translated the French and maintaining or not the tabooness
 
@Mitch It is even well known to Dutch newspapers, so most probably yes.
 
@Mitch It's well know by journalists because it's the title of a book that disclosed this sentence in 2000.
 
1:58 AM
@Cerberus The Pompidou quote?
 
@Mitch The fact that Macron deliberately echoed Pompidou.
How could it not be known?
 
@Cerberus Let me count the ways
 
If you're writing about a certain country, you must know what's going on there, keep track of developments and media.
 
it's very easy to not know those kinds of things from the US press
 
How is that possible?
Praesumably, they read French newspapers, they are up to date on what's happening there and on French society?
I mean, this applies to any country that is vaguely important.
Less so to e.g. Burundi.
But even then, journalists must consult someone who knows stuff about Burundi and and place it in the proper context.
 
2:03 AM
crever = puncture/burst for a balloon or a tire but here is slang for "to die"
 
@Cerberus He's Canadian?
> James Harbeck: BFA (Calgary), MA, PhD (Tufts), all in drama, and MA (York) in linguistics; professional editor, designer, and writer for the past two decades.
so he's not a journalist, just a language person.
 
@Mitch Who is?
Oh, you mean the author of your article?
 
@Cerberus The author of the 'stronglanguage' blog post.
 
So...?
By the way, you know what I really hate?
 
You seemed to be incredulous that I would think that someone wouldn't know of the Pompidou echo in Macron's statement, it seemed to me because a journalist would obviously know the connection
 
2:10 AM
No, I was incredulous that a newspaper should not find out about it when writing about Macron's statement.
 
and I was just supporting the idea that this person would not be likely to know (because they are actually not a journalist and also not likely to know French/European news)
 
I didn't say that about your author.
But about newspapers.
 
@Cerberus But what newspaper didn't know that? All we were talking about is the blog article and not the original newspaper references
 
No, it was about newspapers.
 
@Cerberus so it came across that you were saying it about the blog author
 
2:12 AM
15 mins ago, by Cerberus
@Mitch It is even well known to Dutch newspapers, so most probably yes.
Then perhaps read back where I said that and what it replied to.
I replied to your question about whether French newspapers knew about the quote from Pompidou.
 
16 mins ago, by Cerberus
@Mitch The fact that Macron deliberately echoed Pompidou.
 
> Mitch: do French newspapers know Macron was echoing Pompidou?
Cerberus: yes; even Dutch newspapers know about it, so I'm sure French papers know it, too.
 
I had no doubt that what you say is an accurate description of Dutch (or European or French journalism), and I never objected to that. But you seem to be trying to convince me of something I never said I doubted. So I thought you were astounded at the lack of mention of Pomppidou quote in the blog article, the only thing we have together at this point to check.
18 mins ago, by Cerberus
How is that possible?
 
All of that was about newspapers.
 
OK
 
2:19 AM
You asked about papers, I replied about papers, and the rest of what we talked about was, from my point of view, about newspapers.
 
OK
 
At any rate, I do wonder why your author missed that bit.
I mean, if you're going to write a thoroughly researched and fun article about a very specific sentence, why not read what French newspapers have to say about it?
 
@Cerberus haha that's exactly what I was trying to explain to you with the link to the author's bio they're Canadian and not a journalist, therefore much less likely to know about it than a European journalist.
 
He wrote an article about this sentence.
He knows it is a hot topic in France.
Why not read what French papers have to say about it?
It just doesn't make sense to me.
 
@Cerberus In his favor, the article was about cross linguistic levels of taboo in translation and not necessarily the history of the tabooness
(but that would have been interesting too)
 
2:22 AM
It would have been highly relevant.
 
I had always thought that 'merde' was -always- much much less taboo that English 'shit'
 
When you're echoing someone else, that affects the tabooness of it in various ways.
He will understand that.
 
but I suppose that doesn't mean that 'merde' is still pretty taboo. 'shit' is pretty strong in English
 
@Mitch Fun fact, also @Robusto : English shit is a common, mild swear word in Dutch.
Even my mother says it.
Always has, as long as I can remember.
Whereas kut is stronger.
I don't think she would say that.
 
I think the historical trend is that 'shit' is weakening, but newscasters still won't say it.
or maybe
 
2:25 AM
Referring to excrements, sex, or disease is of course rather vulgar.
So why say it on television?
 
NYT famously -quoted- GWB using 'shithole countries' but wouldn't headline it or use 'shit' unquoted
 
Understandable.
So what I really hate is when newspapers say "we" do this, "we" feel that way, about people in society, when it is really something that I don't do or feel at all.
 
@Cerberus as the article shows, the different languages translate it differently, some avoiding the taboo, some embracing it, but there are different levels of different swears in each language
 
"We" are addicted to social media, is the most common one.
 
@Cerberus Maybe they're telling you that you should
 
2:28 AM
@Mitch Quite!
@Mitch They are rather unable to see beyond their silly little bubble.
They also say things like, "we" all buy Iphones, when in reality 80+ % have Androids.
 
@Cerberus well, it was a new thing to even print it in quotes. politicians have sworn before and the NYT won't even quote that. So it is a stylistic development.
 
Sure, you can simply not quote it.
Unless there is a very specific reason why you need to talk about the word.
 
The German papers all avoided any taboo
 
Oh, the Germans.
 
haha
 
2:31 AM
Always so careful.
Except when they invaded Russia, but I digress.
(From what, though?)
 
it's not like 'scheisse' is some awful word, used all the time
(nut I suppose not too dissimilar to 'merde')
 
I really have no idea whether the German word is any better or worse than shit?
Oddly, Dutch schijt is not really used in that way.
 
Dutch shit or English shit?
 
Kak and poep can be, though it sounds a little bit like student slang, perhaps?
By the way, there is the Dutch word lul, which is a somewhat aggressive and vulgar way to describe a penis.
It is also used to describe an unpleasant or unkind man, a bit like, he's a real dick.
 
English shit is pretty serious (not as serious as a couple others, but much worse than ... 'damn'. People are a little eye-brow raised if you say it outloud.
But 'scheisse' seems pretty allowable, like English 'damn'
 
2:37 AM
However, it is now also used between girls, I even heard it just today, while cycling, when one girl said to her friend, you shouldn't have turned left here, you lul!
@Mitch I believe you.
 
that's a new thing to me lately, girls using male words for each other
 
You've noticed it, too?
 
seems to be used humorously, but still
 
Of course girls also call each other guys.
Yes, there seems to be some irony in it.
But then it settles in and becomes unremarkable.
 
the irony is weird because of the trend to degender language
 
2:39 AM
People don't like silly taboos, I suppose.
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive body detected, offensive title detected, potentially bad keyword in body, potentially bad keyword in title (103): (potentially offensive title -- see MS for details)‭ by Jim Hawthorne‭ on english.SE
 
some people really like them
like moms
 
Autoflagged FP: flagged by @SmokeDetector, @Rob, @Makyen
 
Who listens to his mom?
 
@Cerberus I'm still unsure about 'actress'. It feels weird to say 'actor' for women for me
@Cerberus not some kids, those little bastards
 
2:42 AM
@Mitch I meant "lul" and "guys".
Actress is fine.
@Mitch But they're having fun.
 
@Cerberus oh yeah I wqs slipping into slightly different things
 
...
 
@Cerberus I think 'guys' for women is still remarkable or is becoming moreso or at least very unstable.
 
OK.
In Dutch, it is completely unremarkable, using jongens to address girls.
Even though it is still the standard word to say "boys".
I think it has been unremarkable for a very long time, at least two generations, who knows how many more.
 
3:00 AM
After Macron statement, all French newspapers recalled another one, quite more offensive, by Nicolas Sarkozy: Casse-toi, pauv'con ! web.archive.org/web/20110708023831/http://…
 
Oh, Sarkozy.
I'm so glad he is gone.
 
Well, if we get Zemmour, we will regret Sarkozy.
 
@jlliagre that guy
I remember the 'racaillles' kerfuffle. I don't have a feel for the word in French but they translated it in multiple ways including 'rabble' and .. some other derogatory term I can't remember for poor people you don't like.
haha I have no idea what that means because I'm an American
 
@jlliagre Indeed.
But Zemmour will never win, will he?
 
I strongly doubt but same was said about Trump.
 
3:15 AM
Right, but there are great differences between the two situations.
 
If both Macron and Pécresse make some big mistakes, are not on the second round, and say Mélenchon is against Zemmour, who knows.
 
Mélenchon will never get enough votes!
Of course, nothing is impossible.
But...
 
Is Zemmour the next far right candidate? Marine Le Pen is out?
 
They are both in, but she has diminished somewhat.
 
They are both far right, it's unclear who will stay
 
3:18 AM
The far right is now split, somehow.
It would seem unlikely for one or the other to bow out before the first round, wouldn't it?
 
Different attitudes/solutions for being assholes
 
We, too, now have a split far right.
It has split into three parties here, even.
 
They say the right in the US has splitting problems.
It's so hard to read through all the hyperventilating
 
Even Pécresse talks about sortir le Kärcher de la cave. Everyone wants to appeal far right voters.
 
@jlliagre Hmm what does that mean?
 
3:28 AM
A reference to Sarkozy. "Get the Kärcher from the cellar where Macron and Hollande stored it", a high pressure cleaning device. The metaphor is to clean the suburbs from the racaille.
 
wow
Sarkozy wasn't far right though
just sort of a horse's ass?
 
@jlliagre Ahh a cleaning device, makes sense.
The suburbs are a bit of a problem, but how would you clean them?
And why not use a French brand?
Not quite patriotic.
 
Kärcher is clearly the leader here.
 
You mean the Führer?
 
The Golden Law of Bureaucracy: the more paper, the cleaner the bum.
We had a Karcher vacuum once, it was powerful but bit and not very wieldy, so we donated it to a relative who has a business and needs large-scale cleaning.
*but big
 
3:38 AM
@Cerberus Maybe there is an unconscious link between them. Ethnic cleansing.
 
So I bought a cheap, almost disposable, Samsung vacuum. Not powerful, not ideal, but cheap and you can carry it in one hand.
 
@Cerberus oh my
 
Yeah, I mean.
Have they forgotten 1870?
 
The year of the Paris Commune
No, that was 1871
 
or ...uh.... uh ... Austerlitz?
wait... who won that? Probably the French
INot only have I forgotten so much, there's mostly stuff I never learned the first time
 
3:44 AM
The Germans invaded France.
 
We had the Day of the Paris Commune back in the USSR, on 18 March
 
Hah, I see.
I suppose that makes sense.
 
Russian drunks and students used this day as a pretext to get drunk. "Come! Let's get drunk! - No, I won't drink for the Communists! - Oh, come on, we'll drink for the communists, and you can drink for Louis Napoleon III, come."
 
woohoo
party
 
4:12 AM
What did the fish say when it swam into the wall?
Dam
Former FSB officer Igor Girkin (chief culprit in the downing of MH17 plane): "We don't need the whole of Kazakhstan. About a third, where Russians predominate, should be annexed to RUssia, and the rest should be rulled by a puppet (sic!) government and used as a buffer state bordering China".
The record is on Youtube, dated 9 January. youtube.com/watch?t=1611&v=hH8wEseohkw&feature=youtu.be
According to Russian Penal Code article 354, a public call for an armed aggression against an independent state gets you up to 3 years of penal colony.
Let's wait now until the Russian General Prosecutor's Office "notices" this public call.
Igor Vsevolodovich Girkin (Russian: И́горь Все́володович Ги́ркин, IPA: [ˈiɡərʲ ˈfsʲɛvələdəvʲɪtɕ ˈɡʲirkʲɪn],; 17 December 1970), also known by the alias Igor Ivanovich Strelkov (Russian: И́горь Ива́нович Стрелко́в, IPA: [ˈiɡərʲ ɪˈvanəvʲɪtɕ strʲɪlˈkof]), is a Russian army veteran and former Federal Security Service (FSB) officer who played a key role in the Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, and later the War in Donbas as an organizer of the Donetsk People's Republic's militant groups. Girkin led a group of militants into Ukraine where he participated in the Siege of Sloviansk. During...
Here's the guy. Has the eyes of a fish and the brains of a predator.
According to his memoirs of 2014, "when my regiment entered Donetsk, it was a totaly peaceful city".
He created the so-called "uprising" in East Ukraine with his nationalist thugs.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:29 AM
Nuclear ice-breaker Arktika has finished its first commercial ice trip.
The advent of drones is a real boon for such expeditions. Beautiful photos.
It can travel over 2.5-m thick ice at 3 km/hour. Like a slow walk, but I guess ice of this thickness is rare.
 
 
3 hours later…
8:28 AM
Can anyone please explain this quote to me? "
“The only thing standing between you and your goal is the bullshit story you keep telling yourself as to why you can't achieve it."
I don't understand the meaning of "bullshit story" and "as to why" phrases.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:59 AM
@Vikas "bullshit story" means a story that isn't true. "as to" can be replaced with "about"
on a different topic, it looks like we've found the world's oldest sapient lifeform, or at least a time traveller
-2
A: Was "The 'F' Word" in common usage in the 1800s?

Steve BellFor the series 1883 it’s very out of place. Call me old fashion. I believe it robs from the authenticity. Turns me off. I hope Faith Hill doesn’t say it. I know women didn’t say it.

 
10:58 AM
Obsolete slang of the day: hogde (a rustic; a country person)
Derived from the name Roger
 
 
1 hour later…
12:29 PM
> Both Porphyry and Iamblichus report that Pythagoras once persuaded a bull not to eat fava beans and that he once convinced a notoriously destructive bear to swear that it would never harm a living thing again, and that the bear kept its word.
 
 
2 hours later…
2:46 PM
@CowperKettle You mean hodge?
 
@Cerberus Oops
Yes
Entrance to a salt mine in Iran.
 
Pretty cool salt.
With pillars of salt.
In the Bible, Lot's wife is a figure first mentioned in Genesis 19. The Book of Genesis describes how she became a pillar of salt after she looked back at Sodom. She is not named in the Bible but is called "Ado" or "Edith" in some Jewish traditions. She is also referred to in the deuterocanonical books at the Book of Wisdom (Wisdom 10:7) and the New Testament at Luke 17:32. Islamic accounts also talk about the wife of Prophet Lut (Lot) when mentioning 'People of Lut'. == Genesis narrative == The story of Lot's wife begins in Genesis 19 after two angels arrived in Sodom at eventide and were invited...
 
You can play lawn tennis in there, it's so big.
I was reading this erotic long poem, and added some obsolete slang and idioms to my Anki program.
One thing I discovered: when reading a 18th century text, you get used to the s looking like f very, very quickly.
At first it was impossible to read, but in a couple of pages it's gone, and you can read fast.
 
The human mind is quite flexible.
Just as animal minds, no doubt.
 
@Cerberus Perhaps akin to a native English speaker saying merde, milder because at a remove. (Pardon my French!)
 
2:57 PM
@Robusto Quite possibly.
It's also been used for so long that it has its own history and connotations in Dutch now.
 
My father says: every immunologist knows that you don't vaccinate when there's a pandemic ongoing. I say: what a good coincidence, one of my runner friends is a woman immunologist, she has been working for decades, and she said it's bullshit. He says: they are afraid of telling the truth, or brainwashed.
The Internet really has created these communities of antivaxxers who share a lot of videos of "credible" Russian "scientists of long standing" saying that vaccines are bad.
You can't even make a crack in this armor, no matter how you try.
 
3:27 PM
Odd.
What drives those people?
I mean, the government doesn't like them.
Can't the government round up all anti-vaccine people as terrorists or traitors?
 
3:40 PM
I don't know. It looks like the government is trying not to stir up protests.
And for some reason antivaxxers and anti QR-code people are very active.
At least someone is still not afraid to conduct public rallies in Russia, but for the wrong reasons.
Victor Shenderovich today took a plane out of Russia, fleeing court persecution conducted by Putin's friend, multi-millionaire Prigozhin, owner of a covert mercenary company.
Shenderovich is a renowned writer, author of plays and comedic TV programs.
My sister once met him on the train in metro, and they talked and took photos of them together.
I wondered that he was not afraid of being killed and just rode a subway on his way to radio shows.
He has been criticizing Putin since 2000, was driven off the TV channels for this, but was allowed to continue with his critique.
On 30 December 2021, Russia's Ministry of Justice added Shenderovich to its list of “foreign agents”.
They are ousting people who are too renowned to be just thrown into jail.
If you throw Shenderovich into jail, a lot of cry will arise from the USA and from Israel, because he is a Jew and has a lot of readers/listeners in Israel in the Russian-speaking community.
Putin is trying to peacefully oust the most renowned people, and then to intimidate the rest.
 
Makes sense as a strategy.
 
Back in 2014 when Russian invaded Ukraine, he went out with this anti-war sign.
You cannot imagine the hysteria against the very word "Ukraine" that was then raging. It was very brave of him.
Ukraine was called "Country 404" by some people I know, implying that it's a non-state and a fake nation.
 
Hah.
 
3:56 PM
It's just like in the famous book "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". After the invasion of Poland, the author of the book was asked by a German saleswoman at a store selling fruit. "Why are you Americans and British so up in arms against Germany?" - "Because you've just started a war" -- "But it's only Poland!" (Meaning that Poland is a non-state and a fake nation).
Hitler would have liked Putin's propaganda.
 
 
3 hours later…
6:27 PM
@Cerberus I think it starts out as an attempt at eccentricity, like "this is what I believe about this thing" or "this is how I do X" and somewhere along the way, the truth itself stops mattering anymore.
What matters is they be acknowledged as some shade of eccentric. Calling antivax people morons to their face does accomplish that, so it's more tolerable for them than being outright ignored.
Sometimes it does feel like all the nonsense these people come up with is to just fish for a compliment in small talk with a stranger on a bus. The topic itself doesn't matter, although it certainly helps to share in a topic so they're not totally defenseless. The eccentric way to grill meat is more likely to be ridiculed but a group of people can always come up with more nonsense than a single person.
 
6:59 PM
> Pop music, he believes, employs sexual images and language to enthrall the young and to persuade them that their petty rebelliousness is authentic politics, when, in fact, they are being controlled by the money-managers whom successful performers like Mick Jagger quietly serve. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Closing_of_the_American_Mind
What if indeed there is something to it, but not as a conscious conspiracy, but as a natural process of adaptation and mutation of "signals" in society. Like, for instance, genes encoding the activity of synapses have been found to encode feeding behaviors of the cells that are considered the precursors of neurons, in a phylogenically old organism.
Then one could imagine that a complex society indeed might use music, imagery, etc. to regulate aspects of living and work, but not as a planned conspiracy, but like in an evolving complex organism, the cooption of one signal to serve in more complex ways.
I'm listening to a series of lectures about the history of philosophy, and the lector says that an ancient Greek philosopher considered music very important to the running of the society. And so the author mentions Allan Bloom.
And I went to look up Allan Bloom online.
Allan David Bloom (September 14, 1930 – October 7, 1992) was an American philosopher, classicist, and academician. He studied under David Grene, Leo Strauss, Richard McKeon, and Alexandre Kojève. He subsequently taught at Cornell University, the University of Toronto, Tel Aviv University, Yale University, École normale supérieure of Paris, and the University of Chicago. Bloom championed the idea of Great Books education and became famous for his criticism of contemporary American higher education, with his views being expressed in his bestselling 1987 book, The Closing of the American Mind....
 
7:17 PM
I always knew it. Those Marxists must be stopped.
But overall the article reads with pleasure. He has a talent for putting his mind into words, and I like his scorn for the music industry.
 
 
3 hours later…
10:38 PM
@M.A.R. That is possible.
@M.A.R. I completely agree with you that such people, and other extremists, should be ignored.
Or you'll only fuel the flame.
However, newspapers earn money by feeding or generating controversy, because controversy brings attention, which brings in money.
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