English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

00:04

@tchrist Good question. I cannot easily find the answer on my phone.

tchrist

@Cerberus I think John was surprised to find no ancient uses.

Cerberus

@tchrist His answer did not seem very good to me.

The ancients did not use "voice".

I cannot find why the English do.

tchrist

We don't know why it got called that.

As he mentioned, Romance uses reflexes of vox, but I'm sure you knew that. It's not like voice isn't such. :)

Cerberus

Indeed, you and I do not. But perhaps someone else does.

tchrist

This is true.

I didn't mean there was no possible explanation.

I meant that it has not been revealed yet.

I wonder if it didn't appear first in French.

Cerberus

00:22

Probably Italian or French.

> On parle, plus spécifiquement, de voix du point de vue de la morphologie verbale pour décrire la forme que prend le verbe pour signifier une diathèse.

tchrist

There was "a French" before there was "an Italian". If we are going to call the Parisian langue d'oïl French, I guess. Italian took forever to solidify.

That 14th century "actif vois, eithir passif." is clearly under French influence.

Cerberus

> IV. Gramm. 1753 « forme que prend le verbe, suivant que l'action est faite ou subie par le sujet » voix active, voix passive, voix moyenne (Encyclop. t. 3, s.v. conjugaison

This is the oldest usage recorded in the TLF.

But I suspect Didérot mostly used existing terms in his encyclopedia, so it may very well be older in French.

Even so, I find that English quotation highly surprising, if not suspect.

tchrist

00:40

1753 is extremely recent.

OED has:

> (in grammar) word, syllabic sound, expression, in post-classical Latin also vowel (4th cent.), (active or passive) voice (13th cent. in a British source; 16th cent. in continental sources)

Cerberus

Perhaps they used e.g. genre instead.

tchrist

I don't see why they wouldn't.

Cerberus

I wonder how reliable that source is.

There are many possibilities.

tchrist

In Spanish a voz can still be a word, a vocal a vowel.

Cerberus

How conservative.

tchrist

00:44

It doesn't make much sense to me that it would appear first in a British source three centuries before a Continental one. But I'm slow.

Cerberus

Exactly.

Which is why I suspect it.

tchrist

> c1425 in C. R. Bland Teaching Gram. in Late Medieval Eng. (1991) 160 (MED) Þo secund coniugaciun..of passyf wowus, þat as -e- long befor þo -ris indecatyf, as doceris.
a1450 (▸a1397) Prol. Old Test. in Bible (Wycliffite, L.V.) (Cambr. Mm.2.15) (1850) xv. 57 A participle of a present tens, either preterit, of actif vois, eithir passif.
a1504 J. Holt Lac Puerorum (1508) sig. Cii Declenson of the passyf voyce.
1534 N. Udall Floures for Latine Spekynge gathered oute of Terence f. 164 When so euer the englishe of the infinitiue of thactiue voyce, cometh after any verbe or oth…

That "passyf wowus" is passive voice.

"perhaps transmission error"

> α. Middle English fows (perhaps transmission error), Middle English foys, Middle English uois, Middle English uoise, Middle English uoiss, Middle English uoys, Middle English uoyz, Middle English vaise, Middle English veys, Middle English vioces (plural, probably transmission error), Middle English voeys, Middle English voix, Middle English voiz, Middle English voy (probably transmission error), Middle English voyc, Middle English voye (probably transmission error), Middle English voyes, Middle English voysce, Middle English vyce, Middle English woice, Middle English wois, Middle English …

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in body (69): Is "-eth" (as in the verb "buildeth") always the singular? Is this enscription at Hoover Dam a mistake? by user430694 on english.SE

Cerberus

Hmm.

Too many quotations.

tchrist

Wonder what Smoky hates there.

> On the Arizona elevator tower is a series of five bas-reliefs, also in concrete, depicting "the visages of those Indian tribes who have inhabited mountains and plains from ages distant." Accompanying the illustrations is the inscription, "Since primordial times, American Indian tribes and Nations lifted their hands to the Great Spirit from these ranges and plains. We now with them in peace buildeth again a Nation."

I guess buildeth was the closest they could come to Latin in 20th century Arizona.

Weird caps, too. "American Indian tribes and Nations lifted"

> Hansen also created the nearby bronze plaque memorializing the 96 workers who died during construction of the dam. An inscription proclaims, "They died to make the desert bloom."

To strangle the river.

> The inscription at the base of the Hoover Dam flagpole reads, "It is fitting that the flag of our country should fly here in honor of those men who, inspired by a vision of lonely lands made fruitful, conceived this great work and of those others whose genius and labor made that vision a reality."

Lonely lands?

It's in ALL CAPS, like Trajan capitals.

So just a bad transcription on the caps.

But buildeth remains. Bizarre.

Cerberus

01:03

Quite.

tchrist

I like how they use a centered dot for a space in the engraving.

tchrist

01:18

@tchrist I was looking up what one doth call it when you wrote that, but all I've gotten so far is dad jokes - it's a monumental error. — Phil Sweet 5 mins ago

"A monumental error"

CowperKettle

@Mitch Red meant Ukrainian. Poland managed to capture big parts of Ukraine in the 1919-1920 Poland-Soviet war

tchrist

> STOCKPORT Council has apologised after engravers made a spelling mistake on a memorial to fallen war hero.

Engravers inscribed the name of Corporal Danny Winter, the 28-year-old Royal Marine killed while on service in Afghanistan earlier this year.

But instead of inscribing Afghanistan on the war memorial in Marple’s Memorial Park, engravers carved ‘Afganistan’ by mistake.

The glaring error was quickly removed by the council, causing alarm among Marple residents who were concerned about why the inscription had been removed.

CowperKettle

There was a nationalist anti-Polish underground there, with terrorist attacks and stuff. Until the USSR invaded in 1939 and took away the Eastern Poland

tchrist

The Brits never have managed to get Afghanistan right. :)

CowperKettle

02:34

Western Ukraine

Western Ukraine or West Ukraine (Ukrainian: Західна Україна or Захід України) is a geographical and historical relative term used in reference to the western territories of Ukraine. The form Ukrainian West is used but not emphasized often. The territory includes several historical regions such as Transcarpathia, Halychyna including Pokuttia (eastern portion of the Eastern Galicia), most of Volhynia, northern Bukovina as well as western Podolia. The main historical areas that the territory covers are Volhynia and Russia, today more known as Galicia or, locally, Halychyna. Russian cultural influence...

> Russian cultural influence in the Ukrainian West is negligible. Moscow only obtained control over the territory in the 20th century, namely, during World War II. The city of Lviv is the main cultural center of the region and was the historical capital of the Kingdom of Rus.

They say that Lviv is a beautiful city.

Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia

The Principality or, from 1253, Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia (Old East Slavic: Галицко-Волинскоє князство, romanized: Galitsko-Volinskoe kniazstvo; Ukrainian: Галицько-Волинське князівство, romanized: Halytsko-Volynske kniazivstvo; Latin: Regnum Galiciae et Lodomeriae), also known as the Kingdom of Rus (Ukrainian: Королівство Русь, romanized: Korolivstvo Rus, Latin: Regnum Rusiae), was a medieval state and vassal of the Golden Horde in the Eastern European regions of Galicia and Volhynia that existed from 1199 to 1349. Its territory was predominantly located in modern-day Ukraine and Belarus. Along...

The only part of Ancient Rus that was not occupied by the Mongols. It existed as an independent kingdom for 150 years, until it was swallowed by the Polish-Lithuanian Republic

Тарас Гаврик - Львів. Я люблю ТБ

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A nice song dedicated to the city of Lviv

Due to being first under Poland, then under the USSR, by 1941 there was a strong anti-Jew sentiment in Lviv

Lviv pogroms (1941)

The Lviv pogroms were the consecutive pogroms and massacres of Jews in June and July 1941 in the city of Lwów in Eastern Poland/Western Ukraine (now Lviv, Ukraine). The massacres were perpetrated by Ukrainian nationalists (specifically, the OUN), German death squads, and urban population from 30 June to 2 July, and from 25 to 29 July, during the German invasion of the Soviet Union. Thousands of Jews were killed both in the pogroms and in the Einsatzgruppen killings. Ukrainian nationalists targeted Jews in the first pogrom on the pretext of their purported responsibility for the NKVD prisoner massacre...

Immediately after the Nazi Germany entered the city, people started robbing and killing Jews.

Lwów Ghetto

The Lwów Ghetto (German: Ghetto Lemberg; Polish: getto we Lwowie) was a Nazi ghetto in the city of Lwów (now Lviv, Ukraine) in the territory of Nazi-administered General Government in German-occupied Poland. The ghetto, set up in the second half of 1941, was liquidated in June 1943; all its inhabitants who survived prior killings were deported to the Bełżec extermination camp and the Janowska concentration camp. == Background == Lviv (Polish: Lwów) was a multicultural city just before World War II, with a population of 312,231. The city's 157,490 ethnic Poles constituted just over 50 percent of...

As far back as the 17th century, Ukrainian Cossacks used to perpetrate massacres of Jews. Especially during the wars of the central Polish authorities. Cossacks killed off many Jews.

CowperKettle

04:01

tchrist

04:37

@CowperKettle "Banging" their heads in shame seems a bit harsh to me.

CowperKettle

05:28

@tchrist Because "to bang" has come to mean "to have sex"?

I've just had my third covid shot

Sputnik, first component

CowperKettle

06:03

LOL @ Taliban spokesman has a Twitter account, and Trump doesn't

CowperKettle

06:50

CowperKettle

08:27

CowperKettle

10:18

> "That's all, folks!"

The ending title from the Soviet and Russian satirical TV mini-series for kids.

Конечная заставка Ералаша в разрешении 1920×1080

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CowperKettle

10:41

Turkish archaeologists claim to have found what they believe is part of the Trojan horse

CowperKettle

13:02

It's never a good idea to cling to the outside of a plane.

Could have worked in 1921, maybe.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle Third? What were the first two?

CowperKettle

@FaheemMitha Also Sputnik

Faheem Mitha

13:31

@CowperKettle Three Sputnik shots? Is that normal?

CowperKettle

@FaheemMitha Yes, why not?

First component on 24 Jan, second on 15 Feb, and again first on 16 Aug

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle I've not heard of that being done for other vaccines. Is the third a "booster shot"?

CowperKettle

Yes, the third is a booster

I hope to get some Western vaccine next February.

Faheem Mitha

Personally, I'm happy to take vaccines till the cows come home, but it does not seem to be an option here. At least, as of now.

CowperKettle

In India?

Faheem Mitha

13:33

@CowperKettle Pfizer/Moderna? The mRNA vaccines?

CowperKettle

@FaheemMitha Yes, something like this

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle Yes, in India. The fascist moron central govt is keeping tight hold of the procedures. They think they are in charge, Heaven help us.

@CowperKettle I'd like to take those too. If and when they become available here.

Though it's all an act of faith. They could be injecting us with distilled water, for all I know.

My first shot had a little bit of a reaction. The second, nothing at all. My arm didn't even hurt.

CowperKettle

@FaheemMitha Same here ))

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle Huh.

CowperKettle

I had a slight fever from the second shot only.

A tablet solved that.

This Super Tucano plane is beautiful

Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano

The Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano (English: Super Toucan; pronunciation), also named ALX or A-29, is a Brazilian turboprop light attack aircraft designed and built by Embraer as a development of the Embraer EMB 312 Tucano. The A-29 Super Tucano carries a wide variety of weapons, including precision-guided munitions, and was designed to be a low-cost system operated in low-threat environments.In addition to its manufacture in Brazil, Embraer has set up a production line in the United States in conjunction with Sierra Nevada Corporation for the manufacture of A-29s to export customers. == Design... ==

SmokeDetector

13:42

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer (61): English generator algorithms by Noor Nabi Cowdery on english.SE

Faheem Mitha

scroll.in/latest/1002895/…

Not sure what the difference between India and China is these days.

Perhaps the scariest part is that these newspaper reports don't seem to think anything is normal about this. This sort of thing really belongs in Stalin's Russia.

Perhaps Putin's Russia too. I suppose if you criticize him, bad things happen to you.

CowperKettle

Yes, it's very bad to hear such news. I hope that India will remain democratic.

CowperKettle

14:24

Malarial mosquitoes caused the Civil War

Here goes vaccination as a means to squash new cases.

CowperKettle

15:24

Harmonic surprise found to be key to pop chart success - news that @RegDwight might understand, but that is Chinese to me.

ＭｕｓｃｌｅＨｅｌｉｃｏｐｔｅｒ (Featuring Epic Voice Guy)

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My favorite cartoon as a kid.

Good memories

Mitch

@CowperKettle I don't see how that follows from the quoted passage -or- other actual history.

CowperKettle

@Mitch Presence of mosquitoes was among the factors that made the use of slaves favorable, despite the fact that the use of free laborers would have been more economically profitable.

This is the author's idea, he expatiates a bit about it. I only quoted a short piece.

The author is not 100% sure, it's a kind of book that touches upon a lot of things.

I twisted the author's words to a stronger conclusion for a dramatic effect.

Mitch

It was very dramatic.

But the cause and effect is misleading. I think the most that can be said is that conditions favorable for plantation economics are also favorable for mosquito breeding.

But also that passage seems to be saying that large plantations were only a very small part of the South's economy. And so that even if mosquitoes caused plantations, the author is leading us to think that they weren't a big cause of the American civil war.

Now if most of the pro-secession Southerners who attacked Fort Sumter (a US fort) happened to be malarial ... -that- would be mosquitoes causing the civil war.

CowperKettle

15:52

‘Mind blowing’: Grizzly bear DNA maps onto Indigenous language families

CowperKettle

16:21

Scientists have developed an artificial antibody that can potentially neutralize a wide range of coronaviruses, including the COVID-19 medicalxpress.com/news/…

Thus far, the results are in only for rabbits.

But the drug it's based on shows a 7-fold decrease of hospitalizations+deaths in a preliminary publication of an ongoing human covid-19 trial.

@Mitch Yes, I agree

Cerberus

20:39

@CowperKettle It is a still a means. Those peaks are in nowise ceteris paribus.

@CowperKettle Yeah, it's extremely tragic.

Afghanistan could have been a great place to live again.

And, until recently, it was much better than under the Taleban.

It is incomprehensible to me why Biden betrayed them in spite of his generals' advice.

Cerberus

23:33

Photograph of Saturn by Cassini (2004).

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