English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

19:00

But costs double in full colour.

KitFox

I feel terrible.

Cerberus

What's happening?

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist I do. Why do you really hate me?

Cerberus

I sit your cold?

KitFox

What are you doing to my cold?

Cerberus

19:10

I was trying to crush it.

I thought perhaps the lack of a preposition might confuse it long enough.

KitFox

I see.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus and you, of all people. Working in palaeography and having no love lost between yourself and kerning. You must be trolling.

KitFox

I am at home with my boys today and letting them run amok.

I'm pretending to exercise their logical reasoning.

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA If kerning is managing the space between letters, then, sure, you don't want weird spaces at bad places.

KitFox

And free expression, and personal judgment.

Cerberus

19:12

@KitFox Good.

RegDwight АΑA

See, @tchrist, that's how you handle the dog.

Cerberus

The Singularity is imminent!

KitFox

But mostly, I'm sitting here like a dolt, feeling miserable and trying to keep them alive.

Cerberus

Take an aspirin? A nap? Nose spray?

KitFox

Also, I have a story stuck in my head.

Cerberus

19:13

Then brain spray.

KitFox

@Cerberus A nap? Are you crazy?

Cerberus

You could pretend to be napping.

KitFox

It's itching in there. It wants to come out.

RegDwight АΑA

Write it down, then make the next Writers assignment be all about it.

ΜετάEd

Sorry to hear you are under the weather.

KitFox

19:14

@Cerberus I can't nap! I have children to mind!

ΜετάEd

@KitFox Yeah, that's always uncomfortable.

KitFox

@RegDwightАΑA Well, the thought occurred to me, but next week's assignment and the two after that are already committed.

Cerberus

@KitFox If you just shove your assault rifles under the bed and turn off your in-house BBQ, I'm sure they can mind themselves?

RegDwight АΑA

@KitFox So you have three weeks for polish.

KitFox

@Cerberus I just had to stop them from the fun game of jumping-on-my-brother's-head. So no.

Cerberus

19:15

Haha.

ΜετάEd

@KitFox I think that's what vodka and orange juice are for.

KitFox

@RegDwightАΑA This one is going to take longer, I think.

Cerberus

Fun.

KitFox

@ΜετάEd I'm fresh out of vodka. I do have some benadryl though.

RegDwight АΑA

@KitFox then how are the next three weeks' assignments relevant at all?

KitFox

19:16

I dunno. Why are you asking me?

RegDwight АΑA

Oh I'm just making something. Looked like a conversation when I began.

KitFox

Hahaha.

Sorry, I'm really barely competent to type, much less think or raise children.

JSBձոգչ

@RegDwightАΑA hah! i totally would have, but i was too busy with actual work

silly, silly work

KitFox

If DHHS came by today, I'm sure they'd put my babies in foster care immediately.

Cerberus

I like "why are you asking me?".

JSBձոգչ

19:17

@Kit raising children is easy! just throw a few packages of oreo cookies into the cage every now and then

Cerberus

Or kittens.

KitFox

OMG, i forgot the oreos

RegDwight АΑA

@JSBձոգչ your work should be more about death metal and less about work.

JSBձոգչ

@RegDwightАΑA this is true

KitFox

They were doing cash only at the grocery store this morning.

Slayer is hardly death metal.

Unless you are thinking cheesy-flavored death.

mmmm cheese

Cerberus

19:19

Don't make me post Rumtscho's Metal Chart.

JSBձոգչ

►

KitFox

mmmm rummy cheese

JSBձոգչ

(not Slayer)

Cerberus

in The Frying Pan, Jun 9 at 0:34, by rumtscho

Too late.

KitFox

Freakin awesome.

RegDwight АΑA

19:20

Looks like LEGO.

KitFox

brb

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA Yes.

KitFox

My son just decided to listen to Elastica.

RegDwight АΑA

@JSBձոգչ youtube blocks it for me. So I went to godtube. How cool is that? GODtube. THAT song. It's like super awesome with awesome on top.

JSBձոգչ

call me confused

KitFox

19:21

I can't get it. The video is too messed up.

RegDwight АΑA

@JSBձոգչ godtube.com/watch/?v=GWZWNNNX

I'll call you confused at a later time.

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus Hilarious. Kind of impossible to match the key to the chart though.

JSBձոգչ

@RegDwightАΑA "Did this video bless you?" LMAO

RegDwight АΑA

"Meet Christian singles."

KitFox

Where's the German Death Polka? Or is that not considered metal?

JSBձոգչ

19:23

►

i'm pretty sure this one will never redirect you to GodTube

Mitch

@cornbreadninja "Comic Sans"

RegDwight АΑA

@KitFox German Polka, clearly, is Gothic Melodic Speed Death.

JSBձոգչ

though it might redirect you to the 80's. if the 80's were AWESOME.

user19161

@JSBձոգչ I did not know about God tube. Is it a site for learning about Christianity?

JSBձոգչ

@JasperLoy it's a site for Christians who are afraid of YouTube to show each other videos

Cerberus

19:25

@ΜετάEd Yeah, very inconvenient. It was probably done that way for stylistic reasons.

user19161

@JSBձոգչ Why are they scared of youtube? Is it too ungodly?

JSBձոգչ

presumably

Cerberus

Have you ever seen this?

Taken by Spirit.

JSBձոգչ

still loading....

Cerberus

The picture is a little bit large...

RegDwight АΑA

19:27

I never quite groked the grammar behind "you tube", but "God tube" takes the prize. Is that like imperative or what? "God, tube me real good!"

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus Yes, just as the overall shape was.

Cerberus

Yup.

JSBձոգչ

@Cerberus needs more death metal

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ Kill it.

RegDwight АΑA

@JSBձոգչ rocky. Lobstery, too.

1

Q: What's the word to describe that I "_____" your artwork

When I see a famous writer, I will say "hi, I read your book"(or "have read"? ). When I see a movie star, I will say "Hey, I watched your movie"(or "have watched"?). So, when I see a artist, what's the word in "hi, I _ your artwork"? maybe it's a photo, or a painting or a sculpture.

american-english

Hate. I hated your artwork.

user19161

19:31

@RegDwightАΑA No hating in this chat.

RegDwight АΑA

It's on the main site. I'm answering a question on the main site.

Mitch

@tchrist Dude, I'm not telling you to...well, I don't want you to burn your books , and I don't follow your distinction between tchrist- and Mitch-citations or corroborate corroborations. I'm just telling you what has happened in the past here. Telling someone to 'just go to the library' isn't Gen Ref, it isn't helpful at all, and cut and paste's (or verbatim typed copies) from sources make for poor answers here.

By all means use these physical references, but if there's just the verbatim text then that's probably a bad answer. Because if it's a good answer then it's Gen Ref.

ΜετάEd

@RegDwightАΑA "the tube where you're the boob"

i.e. you publish

JSBձոգչ

i don't want to be a boob

RegDwight АΑA

@ΜετάEd yes, after years and years of thinking about it (and I'm not exaggerating for once), that's the conclusion I arrived at. A place where you (pronoun, nominative case) tube (verb, present indicative, 2nd person plural).

But what about God tube, then?

Mitch

19:36

@Cerberus hmm..looks like they cleaned up since last time. got rid of all the big boulders even a lot of the smaller ones.

RegDwight АΑA

Certainly it must be GodTubes. For He is 3rd Person.

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh, that's great. Right on track for the Great Infinite Parking Lot!

ΜετάEd

@RegDwightАΑA I think of it more as a noun, mostly, though. like the comedy channel, the you channel.

Did the originators say what they had in mind?

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA It need not even be a place.

RegDwight АΑA

@ΜετάEd well it is a noun now. Yes. Which is why you can now have knockofffs such as Redtube and Godtube without thinking about grammers.

Cerberus

19:38

You can name your website "Microsoft Sucks".

RegDwight АΑA

Yeah but I needed something to begin that sentence with.

Cerberus

And God Tube is probably just wordplay.

@RegDwightАΑA Why?

You tube (broadcast) [stuff]!

user19161

@Cerberus Well, actually I really like Microsoft.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus I need that for all my sentences. Beginnings. Can't be valued high enough. Anyone can write an ending.

user19161

I think Windows and Office are great products.

Cerberus

19:39

@JasperLoy You're weird! You're a Linux!

user19161

Just that we have to pay for them of course.

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA Why is You not a beginning?

tchrist

answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090710085326AAYmgb0

Hi, it's Stacy again.

I know there are lots of Tube sites. Here are the ones I already know.

YouTube
RedTube
RudeTube
FunnyTube

Out of curiosity, what others are there?

You may NOT wish to be as curious as Stacy.

Cerberus

BigTube.

RegDwight АΑA

@Mitch I'm trying to follow your conversation but I'm failing rather miserably. To me it looks like you're both on the same page.

Cerberus

19:40

TinyTube.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist RuTube.

tchrist

Some of those look like <ADJ> + "tube".

But not for YOU or GOD.

Cerberus

Yeah, people misread the original construction?

tchrist

Hm, is GAY TUBE a noun or adjective in the first word?

Go ahead.

I dare ya.

Cerberus

Gay is both, and a noun can be used as an adjective, so it doesn't matter.

tchrist

19:42

I think it’s TUBE for GAYs.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist is there a difference?

tchrist

HICK TUBE would be...?

RegDwight АΑA

burned at a stake?

tchrist

And BOOB TUBE?

RegDwight АΑA

Oct 8 '11 at 19:34, by TRiG

That's the only video.

tchrist

19:44

Look, it's a Blueby!

RegDwight АΑA

Feb 17 '11 at 21:22, by RegDwight

His wife sat up in bed and looked at him coldly. "You are a booby," she said, "and I am going to have you put in the booby-hatch."

user19161

@RegDwightАΑA Looks like me!

RegDwight АΑA

@JasperLoy sorry to break the news to you, but: you wish.

ΜετάEd

It's the tube, like "boob tube" = the television. "You" tube means the tube where your own videos can be broadcast. God tube is where you get the God videos, Rude tube the rude videos, etc.

tchrist

Once upon a time, at a technical publisher far far away, they finally got a manuscript submission from a female author. When it came time to choose the iconic animal to play on the cover, they chose the Blue-Footed Booby.

By "they", we mean the woman in charge of choosing such things.

And no one understood why this female author didn't want to be known as the author of the booby book.

Finally, they relented and changed the cover-critter.

And put a chick on it instead.

And thus was born. . . the Chick Book.

ΜετάEd

19:50

@tchrist oh dear

what kind of chick is that?

tchrist

Ms Walsh is not very fond of being called dear, either, come to think of it.

user19161

@ΜετάEd Looks like a small ostrich.

tchrist

Ratite, yes.

Ostrich, no.

The bird on the cover of Learning Perl/Tk is a juvenile emu (Dromaius novaehollandiae). This large, flightless bird is found throughout the Australian bush steppes. The emu is one of the largest birds in existence, second only to its cousin the ostrich. Adult emus stand about 5 feet (1.5 m) high and weigh up to 120 pounds (55 kg). The grayish brown emu's small wings contain ony six or seven feathers. They are hidden by the long, hairlike rump plumage.

Big hairy rump.

There is a certain obliviousness here.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist I like how every title of theirs ends with an "oh really".

"Perl/Tk! ORLY?"

Speaking of which, what's the question here:

1

Q: Rejoinder: Capitalization and Punctuation

In an exchange where there are incomplete sentences in rejoinders, is the following punctuation correct? --Now are you? --Fine. --Do you want coffee? --Sure. How often do you use email? --Once a week. --Once a day. --Many times each day.

punctuation capitalization

The third example is rather different from the first and the second.

tchrist

> The animal featured on the cover of Perl Cookbook, Second Edition is a bighorn sheep. Mature males usually stay apart from the females and young. In these "bachelor flocks" the lower-ranking males often play the part of ewes and behave in a submissive manner toward the dominant males. The dominant male, in turn, behaves like a courting ram and mounts the lower-ranking male.

My co-author was NOT amused.

@RegDwightАΑA Let me look.

cornbread ninja

19:54

@Mitch now you've done it!

RegDwight АΑA

The third one is asking for bullits or radioboxen or what have you.

tchrist

$ uninames quot dash
 ―  2015        HORIZONTAL BAR
        = quotation dash
        * long dash introducing quoted text

That’s what they must be thinking of.

Doesn’t happen much in English.

Does in other Western languages.

RegDwight АΑA

That's what I was thinking (happens all the time in Russian). But then along came the third example.

Which is lifted from some questionnaire or something.

Rather than dialogue.

tchrist

Unlike things falsely compared.

cornbread ninja

@RegDwightАΑA now my empty cup tastes as sweet as the punch

RegDwight АΑA

20:02

Aiming for the non-sequitur of the day award?

cornbread ninja

►

@RegDwightАΑA 'then along came'

My brain finds songs in fewer matching words than that. :\

RegDwight АΑA

@cornbreadninja oh that. I don't know the lyrics, sorry. Also I was thinking Polly, not Mary.

imdb.com/title/tt0343135

cornbread ninja

@RegDwightАΑA never saw it.

RegDwight АΑA

It's okay. Doesn't hurt. I watched it for Philip Seymour Hoffman.

cornbread ninja

@RegDwightАΑA what about Happiness?

RegDwight АΑA

20:11

@cornbreadninja I think I saw like the second half on TV one day. Never came around to watch the entire thing. And don't remember anything. Which is a good thing when you still plan to watch the entire thing.

cornbread ninja

@RegDwightАΑA indeed.

cornbread ninja

20:25

hello @mootinator

mootinator

@cornbreadninja Hi.

cornbread ninja

What brings you to chat today?

Aside from an internet connection.

mootinator

@PopularDemand telling me I might enjoy a starred item.

cornbread ninja

Did you?

mootinator

more than one

cornbread ninja

20:26

Excellent.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist excellent

cornbread ninja

@tchrist I want to learn Perl almost exclusively so that I can ask you questions about it. The other reason being, of course, neu skillz.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA More or less correct, and more more than less, save that ’twould be a scary world indeed wherein superuser omnipotence were required merely to grope a plain text file. For this the shell alone suffices, provided it be run in a terminal whose encoding is set to UTF-8.

Jez

@JasperLoy Huh? Which avatar? I haven't changed it

tchrist

enjoys the casual, carefree approach to orthographic and syntactic rectitude enjoyed in chat vis-à-vis the main site

Cerberus

20:45

@tchrist +1 for the first subjunctive (unless you count save as a subjunctive?).

user19161

20:55

@Jez Are you trying to trick me?

ΜετάEd

Take the blue pill.

user19161

@mootinator You look a little like Jeff Atwood.

mootinator

Jeff Atwood looks like the avatar he used from Code Complete?

user19161

@mootinator Well, I saw a real pic of him. But of course you are the younger, more handsome version.

mootinator

Ah, thanks. ;) I think I also have less facial hair most of the time.

Jez

21:03

@JasperLoy I don't know what you're talking about. :-)

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes, I was careful to use both subjunctives — meaning both be and were, and correctly. Save is here not a verb but (per the OED) a quasi-preposition and conjunction. Its first use in this sense dates from 1300 in Cursor Mundi, where it was still spelled sauf as though it were still French. Its tale is moderately interesting.

> Developed from safe a. 5, in imitation of the similar development in the use of the equivalent Fr. sauf. Already in OFr. the adj. sauf, fem. sauve, prefixed to a sb. in the absolute construction (= L. salvō, salvā: see safe a. 5) had often the sense ‘being excepted’, ...

> ... so that it became (like the analogous except ppl. adj. in Eng.) functionally equivalent to a prep., and was eventually treated as such, the masc. form sauf being used even before a fem. sb. Cf. Sp. salvo, Pr. sal.

> The β forms may partly represent the OFr. sauve in collocation with a fem. sb., and partly the ME. form of the plural adj. But the later exclusive use of the form save is probably due to the identification of the word with the imperative of the vb.: cf. except, which appears to have been similarly apprehended as an imperative.

> The use of a nominative after save (see 1 b) may perhaps be a trace of the originally adjectival character of the word; it is, however, to be noted that the same thing occurs with all the quasi-prepositional words of the same meaning, including even saving and excepting, which are in origin pr. pples. of transitive verbs.

Cerberus

@tchrist You mean save.

tchrist

@Cerberus What, voicing in an end-of-word consonant is phonemic for you? Guess you aren’t German after all.

Cerberus

@tchrist Okay, so it is an abl. abs. I suppose the feminine French would explain the English v.

@tchrist Who are you, the Kaiser?

We do not take kindly to Großdeutschland here.

tchrist

Gross notion, that.

Cerberus

21:10

@tchrist Only Dutchmen with a very bad accent will not pronounce those correctly in other languages.

tchrist

@Cerberus On the internet, no one knows whether you’re a German Shepherd — or a Dutch one.

Cerberus

The same applies to your semi-aspirated onset voiceless occlusives.

Do we have shepherds?

tchrist

Semi??

We haven’t yet discussed any languages with variable aspiration, such as those longer than occur in English.

Although those do of course exist.

Cerberus

There is h.

tchrist

Hardly occlusive, now is it?

Cerberus

21:13

You just said "aspiration".

tchrist

More stars.

Cerberus

Stars?

tchrist

I was referring to the semi-ness of these so-called semi-aspirated onset voiceless occlusives, and questioned the same.

ad astra per aspera

Cerberus

Well, I mean to say that /h/ exhibits considerably stronger aspiration if my six ears are to be trusted.

tchrist

Not the same thing.

Cerberus

21:16

Even though h does not aspire to such occlusivity as pʰ, kʰ, and tʰ possess.

tchrist

Voice onset time

{| cellpadding="1" align="right" style="border: 1px solid #88a; background-color: #f7f8ff; padding: 5px; font-size: 0.9em; margin: 0 0 15px 10px; " |- ! style="background-color: #ccf" | Voice onset time |- | style="border-bottom: 1px solid #ccf" | |- |+ Aspirated |- |0 Tenuis |- |− Voiced |} In phonetics, voice onset time, commonly abbreviated VOT, is a feature of the production of stop consonants. It is defined as the length of time that passes between the release of a stop consonant and the onset of voicing, the vibration of the vocal folds, or, according to other authors, periodicity. ...

Cerberus

Nor dʰ, bʰ, and gʰ.

tchrist

Insofar as those may or may not exist. Read the article, pretty please.

Cerberus

moans

Do I have to?

I hate reading something without a purpose.

Without looking for something.

tchrist

It is about the semi-ness of the aspiration of voiceless occlusive, and of voiceless ones, and how this differs significantly in different languages. It is very brief.

Cerberus

21:23

I read a few paragraphs.

What am I supposed to have learned that I didn't already know?

tchrist

I wanted to know whether you were calling it semi-aspirated to distinguish it from Tlingit, Navajo, and Korean on one hand, and from Spanish and Japanese on the other.

Because everything I have ever read in English phonology apart from the referenced article always just says aspirated.

So that was the only touchstone I could find to connect to what you were saying about semi-ness of aspiration. English phonology just doesn’t talk about it that way.

Cerberus

I was trying to distinguish it from how I imagine Greek to have been aspirated.

And German, perhaps.

Kino definitely sounds more aspirated than keeping to me.

tchrist

How do you perceive German to differ from English in its aspiration of consonants?

Oh.

Cerberus

Do you disagree?

tchrist

No.

I don't have enough data.

Cerberus

21:33

English doesn't sound strongly aspirated to me.

tchrist

It does to an Italian.

Cerberus

Just mildly. But it hard to liberate oneself of preconceptions.

@tchrist Dutch has much less aspiration there than English.

And yet English only sounds mildly aspirated to me.

tchrist

Perhaps the VOT differs between English and German.

> For velar stops, tenuis [k] typically has a VOT of 20-30 ms, weakly aspirated [k] of some 50-60 ms, moderately aspirated [kʰ] averages 80–90 ms, and anything much over 100 ms would be considered strong aspiration.

Cerberus

Another thing: "aspirates" t in English sounds quite different from aspirated k. T almost sounds like ts. Isn't it even much like actual ts in some dialects?

tchrist

> Because neither aspiration nor voicing is absolute, with intermediate degrees of both, the relative terms fortis and lenis are often used to describe a binary opposition between a series of consonants with higher (more positive) VOT, defined as fortis, and a second series with lower (more negative) VOT, defined as lenis. Of course, being relative, what fortis and lenis mean in one language will not in general correspond to what they mean in another.

Cerberus

21:36

Of course.

Nothing new there.

tchrist

T like TS, eh?

Where?

Cerberus

Top?

It is not quite tsop.

cornbread ninja

What have I missed? oh.

Cerberus

But it's also less h-ish than cop.

tchrist

I have never thought of it that way, and do not hear it.

Cerberus

21:37

Try saying csop and tsop.

Doesn't csop sound more absurd than tsop?

@cornbreadninja Hullo.

This.

tchrist

I believe that what is going on is that the amount of aspiration with front-mouth stops is greater than that of back-mouth stops.

cornbread ninja

@Cerberus hell-o!

tchrist

pop top vs cop

cornbread ninja

There's always room for hell-o

Cerberus

Oh hell yeah.

tchrist

21:38

I “can’t” put an s after an onset stop.

I might manage the ts.

cornbread ninja

tse tse

tchrist

But ks would require an alien double articulation.

cornbread ninja

tse you later.

Cerberus

@tchrist I'm not sure. There is something velar about ordinary aspiration, isn't there? So it seems easier to do with the velar k. With t, something dental seems to creep into the aspiration for me.

I am imagining someone with a Manchester accent saying top.

tchrist

There is no hissing whistle with top as there would be tsop.

Cerberus

21:41

And I might be hearing something even closer to ts in my mind's ear.

@tchrist I said it was not quite ts.

Actually, listen to Onslow.

Who sadly died a few days ago.

tchrist

-1

Q: Meaning and usage of "she has her heart in the right place"

I once read a phrase (or idiom) like He has his heart in the right place although the context seemed to be a bit harsh. My understanding is: in spite that he might have sound harsh, he mean well or he is doing the comment in good faith. Did I get it right? However, it seems to me the idi...

idioms

FFS

Cerberus

Listen to him saying two.

Wait.

tchrist

When?

Cerberus

►

The time frame didn't make it.

Now it does.

user19161

@Cerberus That looks NSFW.

tchrist

21:47

At what time point, precisely?

user19161

Well, just joking.

Cerberus

As soon as he speaks.

@JasperLoy It never is with Daisy and Onslow.

tchrist

He says very nice when first he speaks at that clip point. He does not say two.

Cerberus

@tchrist You did click the second video link, didn't you?

tchrist

Yes.

In mine, he says very nice at 1:26.

I need a time address.

Cerberus

21:50

Yes, he says nice first, then immediately continues to "not in two minutes..." or whatever he says.

tchrist

He says no such thing.

Cerberus

It is at 1.40.

tchrist

He says nothing further after very nice.

He exits.

Cerberus

You do know who Onslow is, don't you?

He is not that gentleman in black.

I had to include the full scene, so I didn't link to the exact moment where Onslow begins to speak.

tchrist

At 1:43ish he says: oh nice, known ’im two minutes and ’ee’s bitin yer ’and

Doesn’t sound even vaguely essish to me.

But he certainly has a distinctive accent, as I’ve tried to indicate with eye-dialect.

Cerberus

21:54

Eye-dialect?

@tchrist What if you compare Onslow's two with RP two?

►

This one, then?

RegDwight АΑA

0

Q: Key to vs Key for

Key to exercises. Today I saw the quoted sentence when looking at the keys to exercises, and afterwards that sentence got me thinking why the preposition to is used here instead of for. The way I see it is that the key purpose is to match our answer with the correct one; hence, for woul...

prepositions word-usage usage

Robusto

You guys aren't still talking about publishing, right?

RegDwight АΑA

It's to in English and zum in German. What is it in Dutch, @Cer?

Come to think of it, it's к in Russian, too.

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA Toe/tot/te.

RegDwight АΑA

So it's either old as hell going back to Proto-Germanic, or an (old as hell) calque.

Robusto

21:58

It can be "key for" if you are talking about doors. "This is the key for that door, and that is the key for this one." But you could also use to in that context as well.

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA Actually, is this about that question?

RegDwight АΑA

@Robusto same for German and Russian.

Cerberus

We would use tot there.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus yes, sloetel tot?

Ah yes.

Cerberus

But it sounds old-fashioned.

Sleutel tot.

Robusto

21:59

In Japanese it would still be no (of).

Cerberus

Normally we would say simply van.

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