English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

14:09

@Gigili Sounding native is going to be harder, of course, but I didn't find it difficult to get 90% of the way there. Maybe a little better, even. I have an ear for music, so maybe that helps.

Still, there are going to be certain phonemes that are simply difficult to produce and to hear. I don't hear the difference between soft and hard L in Russian, for example, and what you can't hear you can't really attempt to produce. One of those click languages like Xhosa would be beastly to attempt.

Navdeep Singh

SENTENCE: "The obstacle path was run and the extra 3000 meters was covered by me in just 20 minutes" My query is why not were in place of was

In my notes, there's a point -- if a fixed amount/sum/distance is expressed by a plural number, the verb is singular.

tchrist

@NavdeepSingh That was sounded horrible by and to me.

And it's singular.

Robusto

@NavdeepSingh Because "the extra 3000 meters" refers to a distance, not a collection of units. It would be the same with money: "The extra $3,000 was refunded to me."

tchrist

The language is talked by nobody in this world that way.

Navdeep Singh

Wait.. you both Tchrist and Robusto disagree?

I mean different opinions??

tchrist

14:20

The question was disagreed by us.

Robusto

Heh.

tchrist

Each other were not to have been being disagreed by anybody.

Navdeep Singh

Okay, maybe it's given wrong here..

tchrist

Stop using dumb verb forms.

Navdeep Singh

I was attempting a mock test.

tchrist

14:21

These are verging on ungrammatical passives.

Your passives were verged on by ungrammatical students.

Navdeep Singh

It was active-passive question

tchrist

You can't do that.

Things were made wrong by you.

Robusto

Coffee's ready. More anon.

tchrist

1

A: passive voice in continuous tense

You cannot generate a grammatical solution to this puzzle for reasons elaborated in linguist Geoffery Pullum’s 2014 paper Fear and Loathing of the English Passive published in Language and Communication. Specifically, your suggestion violates the rule that Pullum provides in Information-structure...

The answers were having been being misformed by you.

Cut the passive. These are not valid passives.

Navdeep Singh

I apologise, but it wasn't my mistake, the answer given is incorrect...

tchrist

14:23

Unsurprising.

Navdeep Singh

I asked here just to confirm..

tchrist

Thirty miles is a long ways to walk in a day.

Thirty apples is a lot to eat in a day.

Just because you can count things doesn't mean they take a plural verb.

It has to do with how the speaker is thinking about it. It isn't about math.

Five dollars is too much.

See how that works?

You never say *Five dollars are too mcuh.

Navdeep Singh

@tchrist Wait you're confusing me, what's answer according to you? Was or Were?

Yeah I got your point but in this case I think it should be were..

For instance,

tchrist

Three thousands yards was a long sprint.

See?

Or three thousand yards was far too long to sprint.

Navdeep Singh

300 meters are still remaining to reach the destination

tchrist

14:27

That's a different notion.

Three hundred yards are in need of mowing.

Thirty feet remains.

Thirteen ounces of gold is going to set you back more than a pound.

Two heads are better than one.

What matters is whether you're thinking of something as individual components.

Navdeep Singh

Yeah, so basically when we define something, a fixed sum or amount then verb is singular, Am I correct?

tchrist

Nobody does that with units of measurement.

I don't know what you mean by define something.

Navdeep Singh

But when it is changing or may change, like in the case of 500 meters are still remaining, then plural -- right?

tchrist

Seven pints is enough to set any man staggering.

Well, I don't think you'll be able to figure this out.

Mostly because you keep saying meters. :)

Navdeep Singh

Me too. :(

tchrist

14:31

No, me neither. :)

You cannot use "too" in the negative.

Nor "also".

Navdeep Singh

That's weird reason -- cause I used "meters"

tchrist

500 miles - Peter, Paul and Mary [Original Audio]

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Neil Young - Four Strong Winds

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Navdeep Singh

Are these videos for me?

tchrist

Fifteen Men (Bottle of Rum) - Original Version

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Navdeep Singh

"200 dollars are lying on the floor" but "200 dollars is a good amount of money" -- Right?

tchrist

14:38

Possibly.

The grammar is ok.

But when writing, we do not begin a sentence with a figure.

Navdeep Singh

How you'd say then?

tchrist

Two hundred separate dollars are lying scattered all over the floor.

You write out numbers in words; you do not use figures.

Navdeep Singh

That's kinda professional :D

tchrist

Not at the beginning of a sentence, no matter what.

Navdeep Singh

Okay, got it.

tchrist

14:40

But there's $200 on the floor.

Not *there are.

Navdeep Singh

Check.

tchrist

Because $200 is a quantity, not a count of individual pieces of eight.

Although I'm thinking 200 pieces of eight is only $25. :)

Navdeep Singh

You corrected me 3 times during this 5 min of chat. Impressive.

tchrist

Pieces Of Eight

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@NavdeepSingh three times, not 3 times.

Don't use figures for little numbers.

Navdeep Singh

Lol.

Four times

tchrist

14:42

Very good.

> It's six o'clock, good morning sounds are everywhere
The warmth of spring, a gentle breeze blows through my hair
I hurry through my life never stopping to see
How beautiful it was meant to be
I'm just a prisoner in a king's disguise
Broken dreams as we shuffle by
It's six O'clock, it's quitting time I'm done for the day
Out on the streets, I overheard a lady say
We now have everything, or so people say
But now this emptiness haunts me every day
We seek the lion's share never knowing why
Come alive spread your wings and fly

Notice no figures were harmed by these lyrics.

Navdeep Singh

I have a question: as we can write in figures and it's also faster than words so why it's preferrable to write in words?

Any justification?

Or it's just it. We have to follow it.

Mitch

I just went on a musical nostalgia tour

or rather

I've been on a musical nostalgia tour forever and I just went on a little day trip

and

listened to some Dead Kennedys albums

It was -a lot- more musical than I remember.

which is not saying much

at all

but that guys voice is unbearable

that is all

tchrist

Colter Wall "Thirteen Silver Dollars"

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Five Little Monkeys Jumping on the Bed 2 + More Nursery Rhymes & Kids Songs - CoComelon

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Ten Little Indians | Nursery Rhymes And Kids Songs by KidsCamp

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Teach, teach your children, teach your children well.

Mitch

@Mitch haha no that's not all!

those DK songs are so short.

tchrist

teach your children- csny (on-screen lyrics)

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Mitch

14:55

maybe that's bad

maybe that's good

and now that is all.

tchrist

One Little, Two Little Indians | 3D English Nursery Rhyme for Children | Periwinkle | Rhyme #51

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Mitch

wait

still not all

I am so old

there

I'm done now

also... people who say they're old aren't really that old.

100 year old dudes don't go around bragging how old they are.

just sayin

Matt E. Эллен

I bet they do

"I'm a hundred years old!" is something a 100 year old would say

maybe it's not bragging, maybe it's genuine surprise

tchrist

@NavdeepSingh Because it looks 2 trashy 2 use figures 4 words.

Like it's some dumb kid trick you're trying to emul8.

It's like baby talk.

Digit 1 digit 3 rolls does a baker's 2zen make.

It's also unacceptable at the start of a sentence.

2 do otherwise can off10 make it 2 hard 2 C that it is the start of 1 sentence.

These are not train timetables you know!

Figures are things used by accountants and such, and they have their place.

Thirteen rolls makes a baker's dozen.

Dates are in figures, but not when saying something like the third month.

You would virtually never write "like the 3rd month".

It is awful to behold.

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен At her 100th birthday party, my mother-in-law said she doesn't talk about her age anymore.

Matt E. Эллен

15:06

@Robusto I wonder if a 100 year old man would be as discreet

Robusto

@MattE.Эллен Maybe if he was still cruising for women.

tchrist

Stephen Stills-Four & Twenty Years Ago

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Matt E. Эллен

:D

14

Q: Join me in welcoming Valued Associate #820: Shodipo Ayomide

For some time now, I’ve been looking forward to announcing the following news. Our dedicated team of Community Managers has increased today with the addition of Shodipo Ayomide! Please help me welcome him to our communities! Shodipo, who goes by Ayo (pronounced “I-O”) brings 5 years of profession...

Robusto

What, is 820 some magic number?

tchrist

@MattE.Эллен Yes but they still have only 17.2 employees total.

Matt E. Эллен

15:08

:shrug: you'll have to ask them :D

Robusto

Or does he call himself #820, the way the Dead Kennedys had a guitarist named 6025?

@Mitch ^ Dead Kennedys reference.

tchrist

@Robusto 2 * 2 * 5 * 41

Robusto

I didn't ask if you could factor it, I asked if it was magic.

tchrist

ZAGER AND EVANS In The Year 2525 (lyrics)

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Robusto

makes sign against evil

CowperKettle

15:13

@tchrist I remember hearing this song is a movie.

I don't recall which movie

tchrist

I can believe that.

CowperKettle

Robusto

@CowperKettle Could be. Everything is relative.

Gigili

Why do Frenchs change tweet to tuit? That's weird

CowperKettle

They also change Germany to Allemagne

While Brits change Deutchland to Germany

Robusto

15:19

And French change England to Angleterre.

And Americans change United States to America.

And the Japanese change English to 英語 (eigo).

They also refer to America as "Riceland" ... 米国 (beikoku).

Foreigners are funny. Yeah, they are.

Navdeep Singh

I don't understand why you guys judge others by just their languages or how they use them.

CowperKettle

Because it's a language chat. In the math chat, they judge others by math.

Robusto

We're not really "judging" them. We're just enjoying the weirdnesses, which can be funny. Remember, no language makes perfect sense.

Different nationalities have different ways of expressing themselves.

Navdeep Singh

@tchrist You called me dumb but you know what I still have same respect for you. You're a great teacher.

Robusto

15:38

@Gigili: The one spelling weirdness that has tripped me up in German is words like das Genie, which is pronounced with a zh instead of a hard G. The first time I tried that out in Germany I thought it was like the /g/ in genau, and people were puzzled and a couple laughed. So later when I referred to das Chemie I pronounced it like a French /ch/ and ... more laughs.

Cerberus

There are actually two different pronunciations of ch, I believe. In the south, I think they say /kʰ/, whereas in the rest of the German-speaking world they say /x/.

Robusto

They're all over the map. Literally.

Gigili

@Robusto For me it was words starting with pf, at first I thought p was silent then I realized they kind of pronounce it but it is difficult to notice. The street in my address starts with pf and when I was telling someone where I live, they were shocked as to how could you pronounce p and f next to each other like that!

tchrist

@NavdeepSingh Gee I sure didn't mean to call you dumb! I think I said stop using dumb verb forms. That's completely different. Honest.

@Robusto "by the Ænglisc-sprǽcende boaters"

Cerberus

15:53

You could add, "because you're not dumb, it would not suit you".

tchrist

You would not be suited by dumb verb forms.

Cerberus

See?

tchrist

You should aim for a higher class of suitor.

A higher class of suitor should be aimed for by you.

Robusto

@Gigili Yeah. Like I say, phonemes we don't grow up hearing we have a hard time reproducing.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен No it's bragging, trying to stick to the 80 year olds who just don't have the life experience yet to really understand what's going on.

Robusto

16:11

Hearing songs in early stereo is really funny. A lot of times they would use stereo as if it meant two monaural speakers, so everything was hard-panned left or right. Only later did they get good stereo mixes.

Mitch

@tchrist C D B? D B S N D B I F.

Robusto

@Cerberus Yes. And words like ich run the gamut between almost hard /k/ and almost soft /ʃ/.

tchrist

@Mitch I ᚠᚢᚦᚨᚱᚲ

Robusto

Futhark you both.

tchrist

Don't look now but the fu orcs are gaining us.

Cerberus

16:17

@Robusto Oh, k I had not heard.

Mitch

@Robusto I went to a Dead Kennedys 'concert'. It was about 1 hour long. They played their entire oeuvre, twice, with a 15 minute break in between.

Cerberus

I have heard a lot between x and ʃ.

Robusto

@Cerberus I said "almost" ... not quite, but unattuned ears might hear it that way.

Cerberus

I wouldn't know either way.

Robusto

@Mitch Haha. I always considered them a novelty act.

Cerberus

16:19

I know a hard x in the south, like Switzerland.

Even k becomes x.

Robusto

Don't even get me started on Schweizerdeutsch.

Mitch

@Robusto Speak for yourself, tolerance-boy.

Robusto

@Mitch Wait, who appointed you Judge of Chat?

Oct 27 '20 at 19:39, by Robusto

I've decided Schweizerdeutsch is not a real language.

Mitch

@NavdeepSingh We're just fooling around here. Take nothing seriously or personally.

@Robusto I mean... good for them I suppose.

Robusto

@Mitch I did enjoy their name, though.

Mitch

16:27

You know how Southeners say 'Well, bless your heart' to say 'Wow, you're weird and possibly awful but it wouldn't do to say that to your face'?

Robusto

And their names. Jello Biafra? Klaus Flouride?

I don't think The Dead Kennedys want or need their hearts blessed.

Mitch

I think when Alex Trebek is interviewing Jeopardy contestants and they give some life anecdote and he has to followup with a witty rejoinder but all he can spit out is 'Good for you!', it's basically his Canadian/LA version of 'Bless your heart!'

Robusto

@Mitch When he couldn't think of something to say he would fall back on "... Riiiiiiiiiiight."

Mitch

Oh yeah haha that's when he really did think it was weird.

@Robusto They were so thoughtful and cynical but it was all the nazi punks that they hated who were their best fans

My nostalgia trip stopped 15 seconds in when my ears started to bleed.

Robusto

@Mitch Maybe, but he used it inappropriately at times. Just because he didn't understand the ramifications of something didn't mean it was weird or incomprehensible.

It made him look smaller.

Now he's being canonized, but really, he was just a game show host who died.

Mitch

16:32

In his defense, he has to listen to thousands of librarians and law clerks talk about their cat wig collections (not wigs for cats but wigs -from- cat) that I can forgive him a slip of inappropriateness every so often.

@Robusto yeh. eff that guy.

ha ha ha ha

that was inappropriate of me

Robusto

You can choose not to be inappropriate, you know.

> White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki said President Joe Biden 'has not spent a moment' thinking about Air Force One's color scheme

Mitch

He did tend to bug me with his subtle unfeminism. 'young lady', 'Oh we have all three contestants women tonight'

Robusto

Well, he was 80 years old at the end.

Mitch

@Robusto I don't know. The universe is deterministic and shit

tchrist

@Mitch Libertarians will do that to your cats.

Robusto

16:35

And Democrats will take away your guns!

Mitch

@tchrist I think it's only fair. Cats would -totally- do that to them if they were only a little bigger.

Robusto

A lot bigger. Cats don't fight anybody their own size. Well, except each other.

tchrist

@Mitch Then would you prefer he called you old lady instead of young?

Mitch

@Robusto the WH press members are all going through withdrawal symptoms

@tchrist some people wear suit and tie or dress, others go cazh

tchrist

Never try to out cuss an old cuss.

CowperKettle

16:52

> Chills: The increased set point causes the body temperature to rise (pyrexia), but also makes the patient feel cold or chills until the new set point is reached.

Interesting. That's why one feels cold during chills.

The body awaits until your new higher set temperature is reached.

I was wondering yesterday why I felt chills but my temperature was normal, and only after about 3 hours it rose.

Thank you, Wikipedia.

Gigili

17:17

@Robusto Allow me to disagree. As I said, they're easy to reproduce but I can't seem to find out what is wrong with my pronunciation, or make sure if it is alright.

The whole point is an IPA section in the dictionary easily solves the pronunciation problem altogether. And not a single German dictionary uses it.

That's enough complaining

CowperKettle

I wish there was a huge dictionary with pronunciations of all names and surnames in the world. It's very hard to translate the "Authors" sections in scientific articles, with Chinese, Korean, French, Spanish, German surnames all mixed together.

> Can a ninja throw a star?
Shure-he-can

Robusto

17:33

@Gigili Have you tried recording yourself against a recording made by native speakers? That's often a good way to improve, listening to yourself from "outside" ...

4

The Acropolis is snowed in! Whee!

Mitch

@Gigili I think more complaining could happen

But also, try forvo.com to hear native speakers say a word (usually in isolation but also in sentences).

@Robusto I think I spit off that far right corner once. It looked a lot higher standing there looking over the edge.

Gigili

@Mitch You didn't bother to read a single line of what I said above, right?

Mitch

@Gigili Do you want me to be honest?

Gigili

Not really.

Mitch

I'm sure at some point I did, but I've forgotten it all?

All the IPA in the world (which I wish there were more of) isn't as good as hearing over and over.

2

Also IPA hardly ever -sounds- right. It gets the major mouth movements more right than anything else, but there's a whole nother set of details that just aren't captured in the script.

Robusto

17:51

Plus when you listen to the IPA phonemes the guy is like "Shuh! Ah-shuh!" Who is that helping, exactly?

I already know how to sneeze, tyvm.

Mitch

I want the IPA for a sneeze

Robusto

IPA goes just fine with a burger and fries.

The 90-minute is good too, especially on draft in a bar.

Mitch

??? what does the number of minutes matter?

Robusto

...

Seriously? I guess you're not an IPA drinker.

Mitch

is that how long it was brewed for?

how long it takes to drink? because it is so bitter?

Robusto

17:55

I think that is how long it is "hopped" for.

Mitch

so ... level of bitterness?

Robusto

In a word, yes.

> 90-Minute IPA uses Amarillo, Simcoe, and Warrior hops, sprinked into the wort gradually over the course 90 minutes. Just in case you don’t have a foosball table, an easy way to do it mix the hops together and then divide them into equal parts to add every 5-10 minutes. For example, if you wanted to add the hops every 5 minutes, divide the three or so ounces of hops into 19 equal parts. This will give you a roughly 4.7 gram hop addition every five minutes, including one at flame out.

Mitch

I would think the best amount of hops is none?

Robusto

I take it you're a Bud Light drinker.

Mitch

You'd be taking that way wrong

In my list beliefs...

Robusto

17:58

Hops are what give beer character.

It's an acquired taste.

A guy in our cycling club is over 80 (great rider, though) and he won't drink anything that isn't IPA. The hoppier, the better.

Mitch

Skeech from Saved by the Belll had character

@Robusto That guy sounds like a punk

Robusto

@Mitch "Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character." —Winston Wolf

Mitch

when that guy gets a litter more mature he'll start telling you about the right temperature to drink sherry

he needs some life experiences, wipe that grin off his face.

Robusto

@Mitch He doesn't need a "litter" ... as I say, he's a good rider. He can beat me up a 9-mile climb, and that's with me giving it all I've got. Because, you know, it's embarrassing that someone who's 82 can beat you up a hill. But I'm not the only one he leaves in the dust. Still, I don't insist on IPA the way he does when we all are having lunch afterwards.

Mitch

@Robusto argh. "a little more mature"

I've let this whole conversation go off the rails.

So what did -you- learn this year at Davos?

Micro-lending as financing for democratic office campaigns?

Robusto

18:05

I learned that I don't care for Schweizerdeutsch.

Mitch

Space lasers for colonising Mars?

@Robusto I don't think they care for it either. That's why they treat it so bad.

Robusto

18:20

> Coger is “to take” in Spain, but “to fuck” in Mexico.

@tchrist: ^

> Mamón is cocky. The literal meaning is unweaned, still suckling. But in colloquial Mexican Spanish it has a much broader meaning, implying conceited, idiot, scrounger, dickhead, mooch, jackass.

> To the cheers of his supporters, [Trump had] crowed, “Mexico is not our friend.”
“Worse than a cabrón,” Rosi said.
“And different.”
“Give me a word,” I said.
“Mamón,” she said. “Thinks he’s better than anyone.”

CowperKettle

Word of the day: polyQ disorders

Robusto

So Diego Rivera's full name was "Diego María de la Concepción Juan Nepomuceno Estanislao de la Rivera y Barrientos Acosta y Rodríguez."'

That was a mouthful.

And he was this huge fat guy. I never knew that.

> “This 300 pounds of gesticulating, brush-waving, manifesto-writing flesh,” as Rebecca West describes him in her posthumous Survivors in Mexico, “who looked like Mao Tse-tung but was an amalgam of Pantagruel and Barnum and Baron Munchhausen.”

Not to mention Ignatius J. Reilly.

CowperKettle

18:49

Word of the midnight: pseudo-MTHFR syndrome induced by overdose of folic acid

Robusto

What is a pseudo-Motherfucker?

CowperKettle

Methylene Tetra Hydro Folate Reductase. Basically overdosing on folic acid, which is a synthetic and unnatural form of folate, may paradoxically impair your folate metabolism.

Deficient or Excess Folic Acid Supply During Pregnancy Alter Cortical Neurodevelopment in Mouse Offspring

Folic acid fortification was introduced in the USA in 1998 and brought down the rates of birth defects, but paradoxically it may also be harmful for someone, if they additionally take large amounts of it.

tchrist

19:11

@Robusto Of course.

CowperKettle

19:26

Arg-e Bam, a 1,500 year old city in Iran

Cerberus

19:53

Hmm is that where the big earthquake was some time ago? It went like Bam.

It seems so.

What you see in that image is probably mostly reconstructed since 2003.

Conrado

20:08

> Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;
And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;
And wears man's smudge and shares man's smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod

More G. M. H.

M.A.R.

21:12

@Cerberus yeah

Cerberus

21:34

@M.A.R. Sorry if that was insensitive...

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…