English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Conrado

00:45

Typing backwards is a bit less pointless.

tchrist

00:58

Beethoven " Rage Over A Lost Penny"

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Don Dorsey - Rage Over A Lost Penny

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M.A.R.

@Conrado Yeah it's called RTL

Robusto

Sunset looked like it was shaping up to be nice, but at the end some clouds overpowered it. And not in a good way.

Still, interesting clouds.

Or maybe they underpowered it? I'm not sure how that works.

Xanne

01:16

@tchrist Did y’all figure out gimahalta?

tchrist

@Xanne Not sure, the great Peter Shor has provided an answer and some comments.

3

A: What is meant by a weirdwielder in the translation of the Hildebrandslied by Francis A. Wood?

This is speculation here, but it seems to me that weirdwielder is a kenning for God (or maybe personified Fate) that Francis A. Wood came up with. Weird (sometimes spelled wyrd for this meaning) can mean fate, and a weirdwielder would then be somebody manipulating people's fates, in other words, ...

I haven't yet shared with him Túrin Turambar, which I am 111% certain Tolkien took from the Hildebrandslied.

"Doom Doom-master" or some such. Where doom=fate.

I've been very busy with $job today.

Cerberus

You know what they say: mRNA-1273 before tozinameran, you'll have to slay a banshee in a catamaran.

But it is so easy, learner, earner, turner, burner...

Not to mention Erna.

tchrist

@Cerberus None of those rhyme with Moderna.

Robusto

Pfizer before Moderna will probably turn ya.

tchrist

"y"?

Robusto

01:23

Poetic license.

Close enough for rock 'n' roll.

Cerberus

@tchrist Perhaps not if you pronounce tail r's!

tchrist

Pfizer ere Moderna but only in taverna.

@Cerberus Randall Munroe has no speech impediment. I've heard him speak.

Cerberus

Are you saying rhotic accents are no speech impediments??

Robusto

Who you callin rrrrhotic?

Cerberus

Hehe.

tchrist

01:26

Pfizer before Moderna and lose your parapherna.

Cerberus

Nu-rhotic.

Or nouveau-rhotic.

tchrist

@Cerberus I treble-dog dares ya to try that one on a Scotsman, preferably one in a kilt with steel-toed boots to kicks ya.

Cerberus

What are you saying, I can't hear you.

Robusto

xkcd
for you and me
cuz every panel's
3 new channels
an' every strip
is such a pip
the end

tchrist

Pfizer after Moderna will kick your triplex sterna.

Robusto

01:31

Moderna & Pfizer
Make nobody wiser
But Astra Zeneca's
The one for Seneca

tchrist

Who's as dead as that vaccine's future.

I have stood before his home.

Robusto

I'm pfed up with Pfizer.

tchrist

Mix Pfizer with Moderna and kiss goodbye your pterna.

Randall is right. These are hard droogs to rhyme.

Robusto

In that case, Alex is right.

tchrist

I think I'll not even try with labia externa.

What's the opposite of Moderna, Antiqua?

Robusto

01:36

The opposite of Moderna is Sputnik IV, I think.

Remastered Windows XP - (Concept)

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@Cerberus ^

If I had a laptop I would consider dark mode for the battery savings, but as I don't I won't.

Dark mode makes syntax highlighting and brace matching too hard to see.

Cerberus

@Robusto Well, I've never used that blue interface nor all those colours.

I used the classic Windows 95/98 interface.

XP was far too modern.

@Robusto Doesn't that only apply if you have an OLED screen?

Robusto

@Cerberus You are such a conservative.

Cerberus

@Robusto How so? In what editor?

@Robusto Thank you.

Robusto

@Cerberus Yeah, but why would you have a laptop without an OLED screen?

Cerberus

I only switched to XP when it was already old.

Robusto

01:48

That just doesn't make sense.

Cerberus

Then...how could dark mode save you energy?

Robusto

@Cerberus I use ActiveState's Komodo IDE.

Cerberus

And it does something that makes syntax highlighting harder to see?

I'm assuming dark mode just means the OS and other software use dark background with light letters?

tchrist

2

Q: To “travel” inside a house?

I am a native speaker of Spanish and, when moving inside a big house, which may also have a large garden, we sometimes use the verb “viajar” = “travel”= “make a trip” if we need to move over thirty or forty metres. When “viajar” is used in this context, the tone is rather informal, and the word c...

word-usage

Robusto

@Cerberus It's just harder to see in any environment. For me, anyway. Also, for dark mode to succeed they need a lighter rim on window edges so that you can see where the edges are for resizing when the active window is over other dark-mode windows.

@Cerberus I think we're talking at cross purposes. My point is that the only sensible screen to have on a laptop is an OLED one. So yes, the point is to save energy.

@tchrist I suppose if you lived in a Victorian mansion with an observatory or a widow walk you could plan to take a "trip" up there. "It's kind of a hike, but it's interesting. Come on, I'll show you."

tchrist

02:04

Yeah, that's nice.

Cerberus

@Robusto Oh, I glossed over the word "without".

But how many laptops have OLED screens?

@tchrist What if you have Narnia in your house.

Robusto

It doesn't take many for me to choose one that does. If I were buying a laptop, which I'm not.

Cerberus

> All vans and lorries in Dutch cities are forbidden from using combustion engines starting ca. 2025 but at the latest by 2030.

This will make quite a difference, I think.

At the same time, we have less and less asphalt (most renovated street pavements have have been clinker bricks over the past couple of decades. This, too, prevents cancer.

Now the only thing left is a big campaign against conventional car tyres, which are also a major cause of cancer.

Robusto

But are you going to burn fossil fuels to charge those batteries?

Cerberus

Less and less, but yes.

But any such fuels will not be burned in inner cities.

So they will not give us cancer.

Car batteries are excellent recipients of wind and solar power.

Because they can 'consume' electricity when people are sleeping and not using any energy.

So they can charge on wind energy that would otherwise go to waste.

And on excess solar energy in summer.

(I should have been more praecise: combustion is allowed as long as it's clean, e.g. hydrogen. We used to have hydrogen buses, I think.)

Robusto

02:20

@Cerberus Yeah, somehow the numbers on hydrogen couldn't be made to work in a combustion scenario. They can work, however, in a fuel cell scenario.

Cerberus

Oh, right.

Probably because it is difficult to burn hydrogen fast enough to generate enough power?

I read about developments in aeronautics, by the way, where many people are already working on electric and hydrogen aeroplanes.

It will start with hybrids.

But it'll be a while.

Robusto

They have to solve the weight problem to get it to work with aircraft. Batteries are, unfortunately, still too heavy.

Cerberus

Yes, that is a big one.

It was a long article, but it is in Dutch so I cannot post it.

Robusto

My hybrid Honda weighs substantially more than the same model with just a combustion engine.

Cerberus

02:36

Sure.

But the fuel cell in a hydrogen plane wouldn't need to be that large.

Robusto

Maybe.

Cerberus

But, yeah, it will be a while before we have non-hybrid electric and/or hydrogen planes.

Driving around the aeroport, taking off, and landing use a ton of energy, so the article said.

Driving and part of the take-off could even be done using a detachable battery.

May options are under research.

Robusto

@Cerberus I've thought a mag-lev takeoff ramp might help with that.

Cerberus

Yeah, why not!

Robusto

Landing doesn't take nearly as much fuel as taking off.

Cerberus

02:41

OK.

Taxiing does take a lot.

Robusto

Not as much as you might think. What takes the fuel is lining up and waiting with the engines on.

Better ATC might alleviate that, but in congested major hubs that's pretty hard to fix.

Cerberus

OK perhaps the article included that in 'taxiing'.

Robusto

Weight and drag (air resistance) are what burn fuel the most.

What passenger jets have to do is get to a cruising altitude (~10-12,000 m) so that they can burn less fuel at cruising speed because the air is so thin the air resistance is decreased mightily.

Cerberus

02:59

Yes.

Cerberus

03:19

Is it ever useful for an implementation of Regex to return an empty string for a match?

E.g. when you search for ().

I think most Regex engines will tell you there is a match and return an empty string, will they not?

But is that useful? Conversely, how would you feel about an engine that simply told you there was no match in such a case?

Perhaps @tchrist also has an opinion on this ↑.

tchrist

You need to know whether the finite automaton complete its mission. That mission is for all the rules to be fulfilled. That's all you need to know.

if ($line =~ /^$/) { print "line is empty!" }

You don't need to know anything more. In that case.

I could show you the equivalent in a compiled language, but not worth bothering. The principle remains.

Now, if your pattern is ^ +[a-z]+ +$, then if that is true, it tells you something else.

It says your line is just one or more spaces, then one or more lowercase ASCII letters, tehn one or more space. Nothing fore nor aft.

Cerberus

@tchrist I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.

tchrist

Now, perhaps you would like to know what those letters were. That's fine, and there are API calling adjustments that allow for this, but that is above and beyond the mission of solving the regular expression.

Sorry, a regular expression is a state machine, called a "finite automaton".

Cerberus

I think you are saying that the Regex must tell its caller "yes, we had a match"; but it does not need to return the content of the (empty) match?

tchrist

In particular, it is a user-friendly front-end to make these easier to use.

@Cerberus Why would it need to return what it matched? It told you it has done so.

Cerberus

03:26

By "need" I mean in order to be fully useful.

tchrist

No, I disagree.

Cerberus

Then I don't understand.

tchrist

if ($line =~ /A/) { print "Your line has the letter 'A' in it.\n" }

Cerberus

As it is now, I have this implementation that will return an array of three empty strings when you use () on ab.

tchrist

What do you propose that the match return here that's "useful"?

Do you wish to know WHERE it matched? Or how many times? Do you wish to loop?

Cerberus

03:28

I don't know!

tchrist

You must choose the right primitives for your programming interface, or else you can't do things you haven't planned for.

Cerberus

I'm wondering what users might wish to know.

tchrist

You should not do so. You should provide ways for them to do, and know, all these possible things, as primitives.

You never make only a high-level interface that can only be used in some narrow way.

Cerberus

It will still be possible for them.

But not in the 'convenient' way I'm creating.

tchrist

You start with the nuts and bolts.

Cerberus

03:30

They are already there.

tchrist

OF what use in my two examples is "returning the string matched"?

Waste a time, space, and memory.

Cerberus

I've seen three examples?

tchrist

Should everyone pay that price? You make people pay for things they don't use, and they will not appreciate your taxes.

Cerberus

^$ in this case, I understand it can be useful to know that there was a match.

But can it also be useful to have an empty string returned in addition?

But perhaps the two are hard to separate.

tchrist

($word) = ($line =~ /^ +([a-z]+) +$/);

Et voilà!

Now it returns what's inside the inner parens around the letters.

Cerberus

03:34

I can read the Regex, but I don't know what you're telling me.

tchrist

I ASKED it to return something.

So it did so.

It should never do what I do not ask it. It is a terrible waste.

while (($word) = $line =~ /([a-z]+)/g) { print "Found a word: $word\n" }

And now I have it looping through finding all the matches one by one.

Cerberus

I am considering what structure the custom match object should be that I am implementing in Autohotkey.

tchrist

Oh this is a far more complex thing then.

I would look at existing match-object APIs to see what they support. You'll want a bunch of things.

Cerberus

I think currently it returns a standard PCRE object.

tchrist

Ah, ok.

Cerberus

03:36

Because the object is not iterable in Autohotkey, I think it must be 'external'. And Autohotkey includes PCRE.

tchrist

I don't know its method calls; it depends on the API.

Cerberus

Probably.

tchrist

Hm.

Cerberus

I know how the object is structured.

But I may want to present a differently structured object to users.

Also because Autohotkey does not support a global search, so I'm also creating that.

So I might as well think about how I want the global-search object to be structured.

tchrist

I see.

Why are you writing your own programming language again? :):):)

Cerberus

03:46

Heh.

tchrist

amazon.com/Secret-Vice-J-R-Tolkien/dp/0008131392

Cerberus

Just adding something to Autohotkey.

A global Regex search is sorely lacking.

tchrist

A secret vice: all creatives continually create their own languages.

Cerberus

So I've heard.

tchrist

> First ever critical study of Tolkien’s little-known essay, which reveals how language invention shaped the creation of Middle-earth and beyond, to George R R Martin’s Game of Thrones.

J.R.R. Tolkien’s linguistic invention was a fundamental part of his artistic output, to the extent that later on in life he attributed the existence of his mythology to the desire to give his languages a home and peoples to speak them. As Tolkien puts it in ‘A Secret Vice’, ‘the making of language and mythology are related functions’’.

Cerberus

03:49

Yes, he is a prime example.

It pains me when I read fiction in which the made-up words seem tacky or childish.

Their form is important, even when it's only names and no sentences.

> MATCH
. (0) FULL MATCH:
. . Length => [5]
. . Position => [1]
. . Value => [Crazy]
. Count => [0]
. Mark => EMPTY

This is the structure I have now for a non-global search.

What I don't like about it is that you have to do Match.0.Value to get at the characters that were matched.

I'd prefer Match.0.

But then you can't do Match.0.Length any more to access the length of the match (the language does not seem to have the required flexibility).

The default way is to do Match.0 to get the value and Match.Length(0) to get the length.

Perhaps because it is the only way?

Cerberus

04:09

So you have shown me that it is important to tell users there was a match, even when it was an empty string that was matched.

CowperKettle

05:24

> “I’m here live, I’m not a cat,” says lawyer after Zoom filter mishap twitter.com/lawrencehurley/status/1359207169091108864

Kitten Zoom Filter Mishap

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Hope he doesn't get charged with purr-jury.

CowperKettle

10:38

-20 C but sunny

Faheem Mitha

11:23

@CowperKettle That would be cat-astrophic.

CowperKettle

11:59

Matt E. Эллен

even a crow of that size couldn't bear the weight of all the bread of America

CowperKettle

12:36

90% of people are idiots. We work for the remaining 5%.

tchrist

13:45

Could we please ban muggles from talking about computer science? We don't have to go to extremes. I'd be perfectly content with merely ripping out their tongues and cutting off all their fingers, but if you think we need to take their toes, too, I'm not going to stand in your way.

> When cyberspace, which is made up of the sum total of all the apps running on the internet, first blossomed in the 1990s, it seemed so benign.

WTF is an app? WTF is an internet? WTF is a cyberspace? No, providing fako deffos doesn't helpo.

They clearly have no fucking clue what software is. And they haven't read Neuromancer, either.

And this is from the New York Fucking Times.

Fine purveyors of snake oil extraördinaire. Smoke and mirrors. Probably opium.

Faheem Mitha

14:05

@tchrist That seems a mite extreme.

tchrist

Very well. They may keep their toes.

Faheem Mitha

What you describe is all of popular media.

tchrist

Dumbasses.

Matt E. Эллен

@tchrist apps are appetizers, I think. cyberspace is the space on the river cyber, so the internet must be some kind of fishing net, catching appetising fish

tchrist

They know not whereof they speak.

tchrist

14:23

Although you may underappreciate the situation precipitating in site adstipulators having absquatulated your interrogation, we are left no alternative but to elucidate how in the ultimate evaluation we remain inadequate at expiating your inadequate preparation by explicating Latinate morphology via facultative confabulation absent prior formulation.

"What does -ulate mean?"

I felt I had to say inadequate twice to drive the point home.

Mitch

15:06

click on play when you get there: a ripe blackberry murmurs to the wall

Robusto

More Vapeur Mauve

Mitch

press play on the french Wait, your tempting aunt is spending your time so much, you have so many horseflies in your tent

Robusto

15:23

LES HAUNTED VAPEUR MAUVE (FRENCH) PURPLE HAZE

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Mitch

@Robusto "tabarnak! c'est chouette!"

but thanks for finally posting a link. You kept saying 'vapeur mauve', 'vapeur mauve' and I'm thinking - "What does he -man- by that? Mauve vapor? Mauve steam? that makes -no- sense."

Robusto

haha

I heard that the other day and was both amused and impressed.

I also wanted to see if anybody linked vapeur mauve with purple haze without seeing the video.

Or hearing it.

Mitch

Something about lyrics sung in French... it just doesn't go well with R&R

Robusto

It is interesting, though, hearing Hendrix filtered through French pop sensibilities.

Mitch

@Robusto as you can see, I definitely did not. I mean, even hearing the song it's like why is he using those weird words, mauve steam, for purple haze.

it's like everything in a foreign language is entirely literal, no contextual or metaphorical meaning.

"What is this haze that is colored purple?"

Robusto

15:37

I think they chose those words because vapeur mauve scans the same as purple haze

Mitch

Oh totally

Brumaire pourpre ... bleurgh

Robusto

15:49

Rolf Harris -- Sun Arise

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I always thought this was some kind of ska offshoot but turns out it's Australian.

CowperKettle

Conrado

16:35

Word of the day: arc.

> Electrical sense is from 1821.
1882, in the electrical sense, from arc (n.). Meaning "to move in an arc" is attested by 1940. Related: Arced; arcing.

etymonline.com/word/arc

> from Old French arc "bow, arch, vault" (12c.), from Latin arcus "a bow, arch," from Proto-Italic *arkwo- "bow."

Arcing

Pronounced "arking" (safeopedia.com/definition/7641/arcing)

Or "The rocket arced gracefully into the sky."

Robusto

@Conrado Interestingly, the Ozark Mountains in Missouri owe their name to the French, who categorized Native American tribes in the area as sans arc (bowless) and aux arc (having bows). Of course, aux arc was transliterated by English-speaking pioneers as Ozark.

Man loses flute on train, gets it back. So they don't say what make and model of flute that is. Seems like you should be able to get gold for $22K. @Reg take note.

Hmm, seems you can't @mention RegDwight in chat anymore.

Conrado

> “There was no way that was happening," Unwilling? or unable? to give a 2.5% reward.

Who were the bowless, and what did they hunt with?

> One of the many etymologies of the Lakota name tells the following story: The true meaning of Itazipacola is "no markings". This referred to the fact that the Itazipco were so generous they did not mark their arrows (they were usually marked so that braves could claim the bison they killed, etc.), that way everyone could share the meat of the hunt.

Robusto

16:52

Interesting.

CowperKettle

Russians want to hold a "distributed rally" against Putin's political repressions. People will go out into their yards and shine lights into the air at 20:00 on 14 February. A pro-Putin Parliament member has already called on "to do something against this, because this reminds of the Nazi collaborants who shined lights and guided Hitler's bombers onto Soviet cities in WWII"

Not a joke.

It's in the news. It's hard to believe.

They will try to issue some statute or official statement to prohibit people from shining lights into the air.

A famous Russian rapper went out to protest against Navalny's arrest. The rapper was just walking the street and screaming some silly ditty about how the clitoris should be protected and cared for. Totally unrelated to Navalny. The police arrested him for using the "obscene" word clitoris. Seven days in jail, LOL.

I've never listened to this rapper and I don't even know what he looks like. But must be a good guy.

Robusto