English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:01

@AlexTheBN Was doesn't work there.

Needs to be further back in the past than that.

2

It's imaginary.

Alex TheBN

Oh I see. Got it. Thanks xD

tchrist

Sometimes you can say "She acted as if she were happy" but the "for hours" feels like it needs "had been crying for hours". I can't tell you why precisely.

2

Cerberus

@AlexTheBN True (although I would prefer as if she were: the past subjunctive were after as if).

2

Alex TheBN

I agree with both of you that "were" should be preferable. But I have seen a lot of people (authors) use it

@tchrist Could you explain why sometimes? Is it a matter of style?

tchrist

00:19

@AlexTheBN No, it's because you're using a BE + -ing construction.

That and the demand of as if to take a hypothetical. That's what leads to had been.

> If she had been crying for hours, she would have had red eyes.

If I were ready, I would tell you so.

If I had been ready, I would have told you so.

If I were starving, I would eat.

If I had been starving, I would have eaten.

She acts like she's laughing inside. She acted as if she were laughing inside. She acted as if she had been laughing for hours.

Alex TheBN

Okay - Got it! Thanks a lot

Are you native American?

tchrist

I'm not Indian, no. :)

I'm a native speaker of English and was born and reared in Wisconsin.

A Native American usually means an Amerindian, at least when the newcomers call them that. They don't use it all that much themselves to mean themselves.

Alex TheBN

Oh hahah. Sorry I was aware of that

* I wasn't

tchrist

The as if / as though clauses work like wish clauses in that they are pure hypotheticals. Most If only clauses do as well. If only I had thought of that!

If only I had been riding my bike when that happened!

Alex TheBN

Yes. I know that... As you can prolly see, I am a non-native so I am kinda ashamed of myself xd

tchrist

00:30

Naw, you're just fine.

But I do take you to be a native speaker of an Indo-European language.

Speakers of non IE languages often make different classes of errors than we ourselves do, and often ask questions differently.

But whether you're from Iceland or Greece or Ukraine or Iran or India, I have no idea. :)

Alex TheBN

I am from Serbia actually.

Unfortunately

tchrist

Oh I see.

Funny, I've known Alexes from Serbia before.

We have a couple of native Russian speakers here, one a moderator.

Reg seems to know something about other Slavic tongues, but perhaps that just comes with the territory.

Alex TheBN

I hate a Russian accent by the way. eww

tchrist

I only know Germanic and Romance languages, not the other IE branches, even the nearby ones like Celtic or Slavic ones.

Alex TheBN

How many programming languages do you know?

I guess all

tchrist

00:35

Oh my god.

I have no earthly idea.

Alex TheBN

hahahah

tchrist

Eventually you learn so many languages you lose track of them.

This can be true both of programming languages and natural languages. It is for me.

Alex TheBN

I know a bunch. But I have always wondered how it would be like if I created my own programming language by bootstrapping

I guess it's impossible after all

tchrist

Go to a new country, learn a new spoken language. Just part of the territory.
Go to a new job, or even just a new task, and learn a new programming language. Just part of the territory.

Cerberus

What constitutes "learning" a language, though?

tchrist

00:37

Most of us have written our own languages, just as we have written our own poems. That doesn't mean we need to spout off about them in public. :)

@Cerberus Can you drive two or three blocks and stay on the road without accidentally driving into the storefront? Like that. :)

You learn enough to get by for the task at hand.

Cerberus

@tchrist All right, that sounds like a fairly low level.

What if you can read but not write?

tchrist

@Cerberus Level up!

@Cerberus I think they may have terms for that, actually.

I couldn't produce well-formed written Italian without a lot of work and crosschecking, but reading it isn't too bad.

Cerberus

@tchrist I wouldn't even know half of the terminology from the Novice level.

@tchrist Same.

tchrist

I only took one (medium-level) course in it at university, and have never lived nor worked there. It wouldn't take all that long to come up to speed living there I imagine.

Cerberus

Probably not.

It will be easier than learning Dutch here.

tchrist

00:43

Oh my goodness, yes.

They have reasonable vowels. :)

Cerberus

Because, really, everyone will speak English back when you try.

That, too.

tchrist

Iceland and Norway and Denmark and such, they'll do that too.

Because their English is so good on average, far better than your struggles with their alien Danish vowels would lead them to let you stumble through for too long before they helped out by switching to English.

But it can be much easier to understand a Swede speaking English as a non-first language than a Scot speaking it as a first language. :)

In graduate school in the sciences, at least in a PhD program, they used to encourage a reading knowledge of German.

So you could read the papers. But they didn't expect you to speak or write it.

Cerberus

I think the problem for people here is not the language but the fact that noöne will speak it with you.

tchrist

So, the opposite of France? :)

Cerberus

Indeed.

Although I feel it has changed somewhat, especially Paris.

Although our young, educated Air BNB host in Bordeaux would speak only French.

tchrist

00:52

I haven't been to Paris in decades.

@Cerberus How could you tell he was educated? :)

Cerberus

Hmm I stayed at a friend's house half a decade ago.

@tchrist From the books in his case.

Not super educated.

Mitch

I have a book

tchrist

Oh, I thought it was from his accent. :)

Cerberus

But at least he was studying or had been studying something to do with economics.

Ah, no, my French is not good enough for that.

tchrist

But sufficient that you could make yourself understood by your host, I trust.

Cerberus

00:55

Well, I could understand him, but I was very, very slow to reach my vocabulary.

Deep at the back of my passive minds.

tchrist

Time.

Cerberus

@Mitch How erudite; is it the Vogue?

Robusto

It's official, until the next Trump in the road.

Mitch

@Cerberus Wait.. you know that one?

skullpatrol

Life can be a trumpy road, sometimes pal.

Mitch

01:06

You're back!

skullpatrol

:-)

Mitch

did you get resurrected?

skullpatrol

Yup, I'm a lurk-a-holic

CowperKettle

CNN investigation uncovers tailing of Alexey Navalny prior to poisoning

►

Mitch

@Cerberus Sorry I don't know what 'the Vogue' is.

Robusto

01:07

@skullpatrol Welcome back.

skullpatrol

Thanks pal

Mitch

Is it like some kind of a ... I don't know what

skullpatrol

Madonna does.

re: vogue

Mitch

ther Vogue?

like Winnie -ther- Pooh

skullpatrol

hmm

Mitch

01:12

or Vogue like the parent of a Vogon?

skullpatrol

is it the new style

Mitch

maybe it's an old style that's new again?

CowperKettle

Light pollution in the USA

Mitch

Is this a song?

skullpatrol

to have a book

Mitch

01:13

oh totally

it tells you a lot about yourself

which book you have

The book I have is not 'the Vogue'

skullpatrol

Truth.

Mitch

that would be a totally weird coincidence

it also depends on if you chose the book or if it was a gift

it also depends on the color of the book

I know I know don't judge a book by its color

skullpatrol

I think it depends on how long it takes for you to read it.

Mitch

What?

skullpatrol

The book.

Mitch

01:19

No I meant what is this 'reading' of which you speak?

It takes time?

I don't get it

I mean whatever it is, I could take how ever long is necessary

a few minutes

an hour

days

i could even spread it out and take a few months

What color is it? That would make a big difference

skullpatrol

Have you heard of "the reading wars?"

Mitch

No. Please tell

is this like phonics vs whole word?

skullpatrol

yup

Mitch

wow

right on the first guess

so...

go on.

continue the story

skullpatrol

It was my answer to your question:

4 mins ago, by Mitch

No I meant what is this 'reading' of which you speak?

Mitch

01:24

you mentioned 'wars'

sounds ... intriguing

as though there's something left to say

3 mins ago, by skullpatrol

Have you heard of "the reading wars?"

And?

skullpatrol

Psychologists vs educational facilities

Mitch

Go on

skullpatrol

Twitter is where the war is at, pal.

Mitch

Oh?

How is that?

skullpatrol

Teachers ask questions on Twitter and both sides argue

Mitch

01:27

and what do they say?

skullpatrol

Fun to watch

Check it out

Mitch

That's a strange thing to say

and to do

I need a link

skullpatrol

I gave up that habit

Mitch

hahaha

it's a god habit to break

skullpatrol

:-)

Mitch

01:29

so...

what twitter conversation are you listening to that is about these here wars?

keyword?

twitter handle?

hashtag?

skullpatrol

I deleted my account

FB too

^that one is sick

Robusto

> That is the way to learn the most; when you are doing something with such enjoyment that you don’t notice that the time passes I am sometimes so wrapped up in my work that I forget about the noon meal

I agree.

The only things that have done that to me are music and programming. All other pursuits I have always known when it was lunchtime.

Mitch

@skullpatrol They're all crap

timewasters

makes you want to die

I mean not make yourself do it

just curl up in a ball and have everything else go away

@Robusto Lunchtime is pretty good on its own, so...

@skullpatrol wait so how do you know about the twitter war on reading?

skullpatrol

in This Is Fine, 10 hours ago, by Mad Scientist

> Pornhub's announcement also cites a report by third-party Internet Watch Foundation, which found 118 instances of child sexual abuse material on Pornhub in the last three years, and notes that in the same period, Facebook's own transparency report found 84 million instances of child sexual abuse material on the social media platform.

84 million!!!

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh. I have underestimated your erudition.

@skullpatrol Are you surprised?

That's probably 0.000001% of all material on Facebook?

To people in India, Facebook is the Internet.

skullpatrol

01:43

Sorta surprised, yes.

:(

Cerberus

Let's hope it's mostly false positives.

Facebook deletes a ton of false positives in all of its categorised of censored material.

Mitch

02:06

@Cerberus If I understood what you just said, I would say 'how dare you'. But since I don't, I won't.

I'll withold judgement

like a pastime

Cerberus

Oh, I assume you're still able to read your own name.

So you're not stupid or anything.

Mitch

uh

of course I can read my name

It's right there

Cerberus

Like a pastime = very fanatically?

Mitch

on my name tag

Cerberus

Yeah, you can read your picture.

Cow.

Mitch

02:09

right

exactly

genau

Cerberus

Précisement.

Mitch

exactamundo

ausgezeichnet

Cerberus

Optume.

Mitch

Certe!

Cerberus

They're closing al the schools again here.

And all non-essential shops, which they have never done before.

Mitch

02:13

what's the vaccine schedule like there?

they should close everything here

Irrelevantly, I posted my 'ubī' question on Latin Language

It's awesome

Cerberus

They are said to begin in January.

@Mitch Great question!

We're happy with it.

Mitch

02:29

I wonder if there's a quasi-SE in China

It feels like we are the entire world, and then you realize that no just a small percentage.

CowperKettle

The Sun takes up 99.8% of the mass of our planetary system, so we are a tiny percentage.

Mitch

Yeah sorta like that

CowperKettle

tchrist

@Mitch de + unde gave rise to Spanish donde.

There are places in the hispanosphere who still say just onde there.

Not much left of it in French où but it's French so you expect that sort of thing.

2

Robusto

@tchrist I wear ondewear.

tchrist

02:37

Portuguese says onde, not donde. But so do some Spanish-speaking South Americans.

Woher und wohin?

CowperKettle

tchrist

@CowperKettle Curiously "co-" incident.

CowperKettle

@tchrist Excuse me?

What is coincident?

Cerberus

02:55

What the hell is up with France?

tchrist

@CowperKettle The lines track each other fairly well.

@Cerberus What are the A/B columns?

Cerberus

@tchrist The letters are simply map/figure names.

The columns are years, 2015 and 2018 (you must have missed those headers).

Robusto

@Cerberus That took me a minute to see. They are very small, almost look like they don't belong.

Cerberus

I don't know, it's from the Lancet.

thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31558-0/…

tchrist

@Cerberus I had.

Cerberus

03:00

OK.

tchrist

Whatever is going on with France, it's not new.

Apparently.

Cerberus

I agree it's not the prettiest image.

tchrist

But I don't understand it at all.

Cerberus

Nor I.

Perhaps Something Happened in the past.

tchrist

Oh there are theories out there for this. The Guardian suggests "French scepticism over vaccines reflects distrust of government".

Cerberus

03:02

Hmm.

Do the Italians or the Poles trust their government any better?

tchrist

In English: reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-france-anti-vaccine/…

@Cerberus The Italians? You wouldn't think so.

Cerberus

No, indeed.

tchrist

> The French people have a deep-rooted mistrust of the state, are suspicious of multinational pharmaceutical companies, and are scarred by past public health scandals.

Cerberus

They have announced the closure of all schools and non-essential shops today.

@tchrist Ah, Something did happen, then.

tchrist

> A IPSOS survey of 15 countries published on Nov. 5 showed 54% of French would have a COVID vaccine if one were available. The figure was 64% in Italy and Spain, 79% in Britain and 87% in China.

A later IFOP poll - which did not have comparative data for other countries - showed that 41% people in France would take the vaccine.

Cerberus

03:13

Hmm.

tchrist

> But public confidence in medicine in France has been undermined by past scandals, including the suspension of a hepatitis B vaccine program in schools in 1998 after concerns of a link to cases of multiple sclerosis.

Cerberus

Perhaps those polls are rather inaccurate?

tchrist

One hopes.

Cerberus

@tchrist Oh, dear.

That does undermine confidence.

Which is why the EMA is taking its time to approve the vaccines currently.

tchrist

ft.com/content/ef3449eb-084b-4192-ab95-91a715317ad0

> The French are “the most sceptical people in the world about the safety of vaccines”, according to a 2018 Gallup-Wellcome Trust study of 140,000 people in 140 countries. One in three French people disagreed that vaccines were safe, the highest percentage for any country, while one in five disagreed about their efficacy, the second highest.

Mitch

03:16

I am very annoyed by the British press...

falling all over themselves...

putting as the first story...

the distribution of the first vaccines to people...

in the US.

Why?

tchrist

@Mitch The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Times is read by the people who actually do run the country; the Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country; the Financial Times is read by people who own the country; the Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country, and the Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.

5

Mitch

I mean does the Greek press have headlines about the distribution of vaccines within the US?

tchrist

> Sir Humphrey: Prime Minister, what about the people who read *The Sun*?

Bernard: *Sun* readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits.

Mitch

I mean I think the country is nice for the most part, but really don't you think people would want to know about their own country first?

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, Minister.

Mitch

03:20

@tchrist I'm still trying to parse that out about the Morning Star. Run by which other country?

Cerberus

@Mitch Well, America begins early, so why not have it on the news?

Mitch

@Cerberus We're getting it first? What about China or Russia? Don't they have their own approval schedules? Why aren't they spitting them out?

Cerberus

@Mitch Probably the Soviet Union.

Mitch

@Cerberus maybe that's what I don't know. who else is putting them out to where and when.

Cerberus

@Mitch Those were on the news as well.

tchrist

03:22

@Mitch Wobblies.

Cerberus

Although the Russian and Chinese vaccines have not been properly gone through the required testing and approval, so nobody knows how safe and efficient they are.

Mitch

@Cerberus Oh. Certainly not in the US press (or the part my eyes scanned over) or the BBC (again, disclaimer about how that's only one tiny bit)

Cerberus

@Mitch I'm not sure what you mean. Currently, any country that begins vaccination will be on the news in many other countries.

@Mitch ...somehow, I doubt that.

Mitch

@tchrist OK. So conservative.

googles for 'The Sun'

@Cerberus I didn't know that the US was first

Cerberus

@Mitch Not first, who said first?

edition.cnn.com/2020/12/02/europe/…

tchrist

03:24

@Mitch Wasn't Britain was.

Mitch

Full disclosure... I used to get all my news from late night comedy shows like Stephen Colbert and Saturday Night Live.

Cerberus

edition.cnn.com/2020/08/11/europe/…

Mitch

But now I get most of my news from sponsored tweets on Twitter

Cerberus

The Russian vaccinations have received plenty of coverage in American media, and the big campaign hasn't even begun, I think?

(Those were CNN examples.)

Mitch

And from the neighbors dog that barks from the window at cars going by

@Cerberus I heard a couple months back that they had been approved but without passing the accepted trial (testing) schedule, and that's the lat I've heard.

tchrist

03:27

@Mitch s/wit/it/

Cerberus

@Mitch Well, look at CNN. Lots of coverage.

Mitch

@Cerberus All i see there (right now) is Navalny (which is definitely news) but nothing about vaccines

Cerberus

So?

Mitch

@Cerberus I thought that that is what you were just claiming, that there's lots of cnn coverage of distribution of Russian vaccines there right now.

Cerberus

No, not right now, because it hasn't started today.

There is coverage whenever something memorable happens.

Such as when vaccinations begins in a country.

Mitch

03:39

ok I misunderstood you

Along with you all I too find it hard to believe that the French on the whole are skeptical of vaccines.

Cerberus

Maybe some polls are inaccurate.

We shall see.

Mitch

I might believe it of the Germans. There's a non-trivial subset of the population that believe in homeopathy, so that subset is likely to be anti-vax-leaning)

Cerberus

At any rate, confidence will be higher soon, as those believing in nonsense will start to die off more rapidly.

@Mitch I know about the silly homoeopathy thing. Let's hope it does not coincide too much with anti-vaccinism.

Mitch

That sounds plausible (the evolutionary argument), but I don't think that'll actually happen. It would only happen if the death rate were much higher

so many what I'll call 'stupid' people will get the virus and only be a little sick and think 'no big deal' what is everybody complaining about. People only see the n of 1 themselves and don't believe in the news (or only believe in what they want

actually I think most people don't even bother with the news

@Cerberus guilt by association with anti-science

Cerberus

That might change once the government relaxes all restrictions.

Then larger numbers will die, if they remain unvaccinated.

Mitch

03:46

I think it'll change once there are free vaccines available and you can just get it.

also there are a few months before most people will get it, leaving a lot of time for this big wave right now of people catching it and possibly dying.

@Cerberus You'd think news of lots of people dying of non-covid because the covid cases are filling the hospitals would be convincing.

Cerberus

@Mitch Indeed.

There is a theory that the Italian hospital corridors helped quell the first wave so fast across Europe.

Mitch

and people have forgotten already

I just got an email from the mayor of my town saying they are rolling back the reopening plan so that some businesses (not all in -person businesses) have to close again. but those are things like gyms and movie theaters. which I thought hadn't opened up yet

I just walked by a gym today and saw two people in there, both with masks, and the door open for ventilation. But still I was surprised.

@tchrist I missed that in my multilanguage search. I just thought 'donde' looks like Italian 'dove', next language is Marathi I've already forgotten about you Spanish.

Cerberus

04:05

@Mitch Yeah, our gyms were closed between March and June, I think. And tomorrow they reclose.

Mitch

@Cerberus Next summer is going to be a big party.

of people who only just got their first vaccine who don't have immunity yet

Cerberus

Hah.

We shall see.

Mitch

people survived the 1918 flu without a vaccine and not following mask suggestions

OK I have to go to sleep -hours- before I wake up, so I'm off. later dude

Cerberus

@Mitch Some did.

That is early!

Goodnight.

tchrist

@Mitch 6,000 people died on each day of October 1918.

You can see us hitting that again.

It's only about double our current daily rate.

WHY WHY WHY THE HELL does one's political affiliation matter one screaming scintilla?

> Clémence, a 42-year-old businesswoman who lives near Paris, recalled the “bad experience” of taking her asthmatic son to get the H1N1 shot. “It was done in a tent and pretty disorganised, and later we were told the second shot wasn’t even necessary. I have been distrustful ever since,” she said.

> Shortly after, a diabetes drug was withdrawn from the market after causing thousands of deaths in the so-called Mediator scandal, stoking concern about conflicts of interests and the pharmaceutical industry, according to Dr Raude.

Yeah, I can see thousands of deaths making people gunshy.

AFter measles outbreaks, France made more vaccinations mandatory to attend state schools.

solidarites-sante.gouv.fr/prevention-en-sante/…

Vaccinations obligatoires « Qu’est-ce qui change ? »

> Une campagne nationale de lutte contre la rougeole, les oreillons et la rubéole a été lancée en 2007, bénéficiant à 3,4 millions d'enfants.

That doesn't the explain the measles outbreaks in the past decade there.

"oreillons" for mumps is ... I don't know, cute?

> Quels sont les vaccins qui sont devenus obligatoires ?
En plus des 3 vaccins actuellement obligatoires :
- la diphtérie,
- le tétanos
- la poliomyélite

S’ajoutent :
- l’haemophilius influenzae B (bactérie provoquant notamment des pneumopathies et des méningites),
- la coqueluche,
- l’hépatite B,
- la rougeole,
- les oreillons,
- la rubéole,
- le méningocoque C (bactérie provoquant des méningites),
- le pneumocoque (bactérie provoquant notamment des pneumopathies et des méningites)

But they aren't going to make the Covid vaccination obligatory like they did those ones there.

> En pratique, l’extension à 11 vaccins obligatoires représente 10 injections pour les enfants, étalées sur 2 ans. Au moins 70 % des enfants connaissent déjà ces 10 injections sur 2 ans et 80 % plus de 8 injections.

Yeah ok.

Good thing most people don't remember anything from before age two. :)

Me, I had the smallpox vaccine way back then. They don't do that any longer.

SmokeDetector

04:44

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in link text in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, potentially bad ip for hostname in body, +1 more (363): Website Designing Company in Delhi NCR by saya buzz on english.SE

CowperKettle

Word of the day: Taos Hum (An ongoing low-frequency noise, audible only to some, is thought to originate somewhere near this town and is consequently sometimes known as the Taos Hum. Those who have heard the Hum usually hear it west of Taos near Tres Orejas.)

tchrist

@CowperKettle Yeah, heard of that.

"Tres Orejas" is "Three Ears". That the French say les oreillons for what the English call the mumps is what I called "what, cute" because it's an augmentative for "ears".

Close cognates.

Les oreilles is ears in French, las orejas in Spanish.

Mind you, I've not heard the Taos Hum myself.

Just heard about it.

Taos is a bit, I dunno, weird.

CowperKettle

04:59

I was reading about a Russian artist (painter) of the early XX century, and came across the mention of Taos.

tchrist

It's quite "artsy" there.

CowperKettle

Nicolai Fechin

Nicolai Fechin (Nikolai Ivanovich Feshin; Russian: Николай Иванович Фешин; 26 November 1881 (Kazan, Russia) – 5 October 1955 (Santa Monica, California)) was a Russian-American painter known for his portraits and works featuring Native Americans, and who was eventually known in the West, because of his roots, as "the Tartar painter". After graduating with the highest marks from the Imperial Academy of Arts and traveling in Europe under a Prix de Rome, he returned to his native Kazan, where he taught and painted. He exhibited his first work in the United States in 1910 in an international exhibition...

tchrist

It has a ridiculously huge Wikipedia page for a town of some five thousand.

Taos, New Mexico

Taos is a town in Taos County in the north-central region of New Mexico in the Sangre de Cristo Mountains. It was founded by Nuevo México Governor Fernando Chacón in 1795, to act as fortified plaza and trading outpost for the neighboring Native American Taos Pueblo (the town's namesake) and Hispano communities, including Ranchos de Taos, Cañon, Taos Canyon, Ranchitos, El Prado, and Arroyo Seco. The town was incorporated in 1934. As of the 2010 census, its population was 5,716. Taos is the county seat of Taos County. The English name Taos derives from the native Taos language meaning "place of...

I think they still have communes around there.

You drive through and you see very strangely constructed homes and other types of structures it's hard to put a purpose to.

@CowperKettle Interesting subjects for him to have chosen.

It's at 7,000 feet of elevation, just like everything around there.

It doesn't feel unfriendly. Just a bit hippy and maybe a bit touristy. But old.

Anglo speakers here call those Blood-of-Christ mountains the Sangres, which is a bit weird because "blood" isn't a count noun. But they don't process it for its meanings; it's just an imported word to them that means those mountains, not blood.

CowperKettle

06:28

I was reading about the HeLa cell line, and came across an article about the daughter of Henrietta Lacks, from whom the cells were taken.

Elsie Lacks

Lucille Elsie Lacks (1939 - 1955) was the daughter of David Lacks and Loretta Pleasant. Elsie had developmental disabilities and was described by her family as "different" or "deaf and dumb". It was also reported she was epileptic, as well as suffering from neural syphilis.Elsie was placed in the Hospital for the Negro Insane of Maryland (later renamed Crownsville Hospital Center) in 1950, when she was around eleven years old. Elsie died in that hospital at age fifteen. The family learned years later that Elsie had been abused and may have had holes drilled in her head during experimental treatments...

> Elsie died in that hospital at age fifteen. The family learned years later that Elsie had been abused and may have had holes drilled in her head during experimental treatments including pneumoencephalography.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle That's horrible. But the treatment of blacks in North America was historically similar to what the Nazis would do.

CowperKettle

06:46

It's curious that in the USSR the lobotomy technique was not used, because it was considered cruel and inhumane, while in rich USA it was used, although the USA had many times more funds to just keep mentally disabled people alive and unharmed.

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