English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:00 AM

2.1 percent of people of Dutch descent receive these benefits, versus 15 percent of those of Moroccan descent.

@Færd About €1000/month in money for a single-person household. There are special benefits to help people pay rent, healthcare insurance, and children: those come on top of that.

Færd

@Cerberus Praiseworthy.

Cerberus

The special benefits could be another €600/month.

Færd

I see.

Cerberus

@Færd It's barely enough to live a normal life off.

You can have a smartphone, Internet access, a normal house (outside expensive neighbourhoods), food, etc.

Færd

Better than living in poverty.

Cerberus

12:02 AM

Certainly.

You may be forced to apply for jobs every month, though, in order to receive the €1000.

If you are healthy.

If you are unable to work, you'll probably get other, better benefits instead of the €1000.

Færd

Ah. I could see the rationale.

Robusto

@Cerberus You're looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Racism is probably the most common and pervasive form of discrimination in the world. Maybe not in your world, but your world is pretty small and homogeneous.

Cerberus

@Robusto What do you know about my society?

Robusto

Sexism might beat it, though.

Cerberus

Oh, now it's sexism?

Robusto

12:06 AM

Hey, jump back. I'm thinking out loud.

Cerberus

As I said before, I think Muslims have it worse than blacks here, and probably in various other European countries as well.

OK, OK.

Even so, the position of Muslims and all other groups have been improving steadily for decades.

So this problem will eventually solve itself.

Robusto

Muslims are still mostly a different color, no?

Cerberus

But we can help it to be solved a bit faster.

@Robusto No, our Muslims are mostly Caucasian.

Probably 90+ percent.

Robusto

Really?

I guess it depends on what you mean by Caucasian.

Cerberus

Well, most Muslims live outside Subsaharan Africa.

We have a fairly large group of Somalians who are black.

Robusto

12:08 AM

@Cerberus Yes, but most of them are still Semitic, no?

Cerberus

Semitic, by language?

Robusto

The Somalis would be Hamitic, I think.

Cerberus

Is Arabic Semitic? Then about half of them are Semitic.

The other half are Turkish.

Robusto

Yeah. Your died-in-the-wool racist would consider Arabs and Turks non-Caucasian. And that would go for how they feel about Jews as well.

Cerberus

I loathe racial theories. But, if one must use them, then Arabs and Turks are Caucasian and not black nor East-Asian.

Robusto

12:10 AM

Anyway, an entire world war was fought under the auspices of racism.

Religion is another big reason for people to hate and fear and kill each other.

Cerberus

The Nazis saw Jews as a race, I suppose. But nobody sees Turks or Arabs as a race, at least not that I know.

Robusto

@Cerberus Then what are they protesting about in Germany recently?

Cerberus

Who are protesting about what?

Robusto

For example. That's five years ago, but I'm certain there must be more recent articles.

German far-right figure ‘caught’ saying migrants could be gassed

Færd

I don't think it was the racism per se that sparked the war. It was the Nazis' military expansion and warlike behavior.

Cerberus

12:14 AM

@Robusto What are they protesting about: Pegida are against Muslims.

@Robusto Of course immigrants of various ethnicities are a prime target, sure. It has always been that way around the world, hasn't it?

@Færd That may be true.

But so what?

Robusto

Turks in Germany

Turks in Germany, also referred to as German Turks and Turkish Germans (German: Türken in Deutschland / Deutsch-Türken; Turkish: Almanya'da yaşayan Türkler / Almanya Türkleri), are ethnic Turkish people living in Germany. These terms are also used to refer to German-born individuals who are of full or partial Turkish ancestry. Whilst the majority of Turks arrived or originate from Turkey, there are also significant ethnic Turkish communities living in Germany who come from (or descend from) Southeastern Europe (such as Greece, Bulgaria, North Macedonia, Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Romania)...

Færd

@Cerberus Nothing.

Robusto

> Not all attacks on Turks have been perpetrated by neo-Nazi right-wing Germans. For example, the perpetrator of a mass shooting in Munich on 22 July 2016 who deliberately targeted people of Turkish and Arab origin. On that day, he killed nine victims, of which four victims were of Turkish origin: Can Leyla, aged 14, Selçuk Kılıç, aged 17, and Sevda Dağ, aged 45;[60] as well as Hüseyin Dayıcık, aged 19, who was a Greek national of Turkish origin.[61]

> On 19 February 2020, a German neo-nazi who expressed hate for non-German people, carried out two mass shootings in the city of Hanau, killing nine foreigners. He then returned to his home, killed his mother and committed suicide. Five of the nine victims were Turkish citizens.[62]

Call it what you like, but I call it racism.

Cerberus

But it isn't about race.

It's about ethnicity.

Which is quite different.

Robusto

@Cerberus That's two sides of the same coin. Not different at all.

Cerberus

12:18 AM

They're not targeting people who look African or Asian per se.

Racism is related to racial theories, physical differences attributed to being of a different 'race'.

Robusto

And I'm sure they are fastidious about the foreigners they beat up or kill. "Excuse me, I see you do not look or dress like a German. What ethnicity are you, please?"

Cerberus

Ethnic discrimination is aimed at people from a different culture/country.

Færd

Racism or not, the question is whether the way to deal with the problem is to give preferential treatment to the targeted community (Turks, etc), like preferring them in job competitions etc.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Færd

I don't see how it can help.

Cerberus

12:21 AM

One idea is that preferential treatment results in more Turks being hired, who will then themselves hire other Turks in the future.

Like hires like.

Whereas the incumbents hire people who are like them.

Robusto

And it is common practice to exaggerate the physical differences in your so-called "ethnicitieis" to paint them as a different race. Look at the Nazi propaganda calling attention to the "long-nosed Jews" and all that.

Færd

@Cerberus What if that stoke more antagonism from others?

Cerberus

@Robusto I do believe there were racial theories behind Nazi discrimination.

@Færd That could be an issue.

@Robusto Racial theories, ethnicity, and religion may overlap partially or even wholly, depending on circumstances.

skullpatrol

in This Is Fine, 3 hours ago, by Eddie Kal

BLM UK gains legal status and renames as Black Liberation Movement UK

Robusto

@Cerberus So what are we even arguing about then?

Cerberus

12:25 AM

Someone (I forgot who) seemed to suggest that skin colour was a more important element in discrimination than all other elements.

And I disagreed with that.

It sounded Americocentric.

skullpatrol

They dropped the "Lives Matter"

to get the funds

Cerberus

To make it more applicable to other societies?

Oh, haha.

Robusto

@Cerberus You might have heard that, but I never said it.

6 hours ago, by Robusto

@Cerberus Probably because those represent the most common and obvious forms of discrimination.

Cerberus

OK.

skullpatrol

in This Is Fine, 2 mins ago, by skullpatrol

Voter Turnout is all that Matters right now.

AND

in This Is Fine, 25 mins ago, by skullpatrol

yesterday, by Yuuki

Texas is leading the US in voter turnout right now?

RIP

Robusto

12:44 AM

@skullpatrol Why RIP?

RegDwigнt

Wait. Joel Spolsky made Trello?

I actually used that shit at one point. To prepare the re-launch of our company website.

tchrist

@skullpatrol Doesn't matter. You know the massive voter suppression there will not go unrewarded.

RegDwigнt

@skullpatrol yeah last I heard Texas is a swing state now.

Cerberus

It is, but leaning towards Trump now.

Perhaps next time it will swing.

SmokeDetector

1:00 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in link text in body, blacklisted website in body, pattern-matching website in body, potentially bad ns for domain in body, +1 more (431): That is because Archaeology is a lot more than a skill by Dingbest on english.SE

Cerberus

1:10 AM

> Uit berekeningen van het RIVM blijkt dat de R sindsdien waarschijnlijk verder is gedaald. Minister De Jonge noemde een R van 0,88, maar de data zijn nog niet betrouwbaar genoeg om een specifiek getal op te plakken, vindt het RIVM.

The reproduction rate of the virus may be around 0.88 now in Holland, though there aren't enough data to be sure. The number is very uncertain, but encouraging.

> De tweede golf is nu grofweg even hoog als de eerste, berekende het RIVM; er zijn ongeveer 160.000 mensen in Nederland besmettelijk.

The second wave is now about as bad as the first wave: about 1% of the population is infectious at this very moment.

Robusto

1:48 AM

@tchrist How's the election looking from your state?

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus well next time it will have to swing, for Trump won't be running.

Unless it swings now, then Trump will be running again in four years.

@Cerberus "data are" lol. You and your dead language.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Swing between parties.

@RegDwigнt I wonder whether he will do that.

@RegDwigнt That is the only correct option unless you want to offend a certain number of people (of considerable size).

Robusto

TIMELAPSE OF THE FUTURE: A Journey to the End of Time (4K)

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CowperKettle

3:03 AM

@Robusto Ah! Interesting!

tchrist

3:15 AM

@Robusto Think Gardner's in the toilet.

Robusto

4:18 AM

@tchrist Still 8-10% undecided though?

M.A.R.

5:18 AM

@skullpatrol Americocentric Lives Matter?

@skullpatrol "Liberation" has been used in names before and I'm not fond of most of the places it has been used in . . .

CowperKettle

6:55 AM

Sun will produce 10% of Germany's electricity in 2020, for the first time ever. Wind is set to produce over 26% of electricity.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd I wasn't aware the people of Iran had popular representation, let along proportional representation.

@CowperKettle They're trying to become carbon neutral by some date. I forget the date, though.

@Cerberus I wonder if I should try to make the case that math people are discriminated against. Ah, it's probably not worth the trouble.

@Færd I think it's a difficult topic, though still somewhat marginal to larger issues.

@Cerberus Impressive. Though I suppose the Netherlands is very expensive, so maybe that doesn't go far at all.

@Robusto Both racism and sexism are significant. In India, both are enormous problems, though conditions for women are still better than in many other places, at least for women from sufficiently privileged backgrounds in the cities.

@Færd They were inspired to emulate the British and Americans, but in Europe and the USSR, where things didn't go so well for them. Partly because people could fight back more effectively. In a nutshell.

Færd

10:14 AM

@FaheemMitha I guess I agree.

@FaheemMitha Mostly sham elections.

.

Have you seen this? It's hilarious!

Jordan Klepper vs. Trump Supporters | The Daily Show

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CowperKettle

For over a month, the ratio of recoveries from covid to new cases stood at exactly 50%, day after day. On the next day after publication in Meduza, an independent media, the ratio changed. Putin's statistics is hilarious.

CowperKettle

10:42 AM

JTP - Apologise to Monica

11:21 AM

@CowperKettle - I live in a country whose government puts out anti-wind-power propaganda every day. It's great to see those state from Germany. 26% is impressive. Anything to share about what they do for storage? The dirty-fuel industry constantly talks about the cloudy still-air days. Utter insanity.

CowperKettle

11:36 AM

Реклама скайпа

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A nice Skype advertisement

@JTP-ApologisetoMonica Oh, I don't know what they do for storage. Maybe they shuttle energy leftovers to other countries?

KannE

12:46 PM

@Cerberus Thanks. Have a nice day.

Cerberus

1:04 PM

@FaheemMitha Provided that your rent is affordable, it is enough to lead a normal life on.

Faheem Mitha

1:38 PM

@JTP-ApologisetoMonica By "a country", do you mean the United States?

@Cerberus Good to know.

@Færd I see.

Mitch

@Cerberus You're looking at the time line from the point of view of the more well-off group and after the fact, ignoring what is constantly happening to the less well-off. It's like you're saying 'too bad, they should be used to injustice and unfairness, so it won't make things worse for them if they continue that way.

@Cerberus That doesn't follow. Helping one down-trodden group doesn't make it worse or unfair for other groups. And of course those other groups should be helped out too. Start by saving one group. It doesn't mean you stop there. It works the same way if there are a number of distinct groups out of the whole (separate religions like catholic/protestant/muslim/jewish, or if there are a number of intersecting attributes like religion/sex/ethnicity/wealth. helping one isn't hurting the others.

Yes, there may be some in the well-off group who may not get the job that the discriminated group will now get and as you say that hurts that one well-off individual. But before it hurt the discriminated individual over and over and over.

M.A.R.

3:24 PM

@Mitch Uh what.

@Mitch It might, by hypercorrection. That's our whole point.

Let's say one million people have the expertise to enroll in a job (I know it's fluid, I'm just oversimplifying). An oppressed minority makes up 200k people in this one-million population of experts in this job, but only 50k are employed. Now you can either strive to correct to a reasonable proportion of the minority, until roughly 20 percent of the employed expert population are from this minority, or you can overdo it by saying "if this company is hiring 10 experts, four should be from that...

[...] minority and the rest from the majority." This would be hurting the majority's chances at getting a job at the company X, but while oppression completely hasn't gone away, would be like two wrongs making a right so the chances would be more equal for members of both groups.

Cerberus

No, I am saying different measures should be taken instead.
What am I suggesting is that positive discrimination introduces a new mass injustice, affecting a great many people negatively. It may help some people, but it will treat many others unjustly. It would sacrifice lots of people who have not received any benefits from the injustice you want to reduce; it would be disregarding the fact that they are individual people, not members of a group having collective responsibility for the misdeeds of a group.

M.A.R.

OTOH, this gives leeway to people who are trying to justify oppressing that minority, because it really is injustice for an individual in the majority that wants to work at that company but can't now.

Cerberus

@Mitch I'd like to add an indirect argument: this is perceived as an injustice by most, and the effect may well be greatly increased hostility towards anti-discrimination measures in general, and even against the groups we're trying to help. It might push the average person towards Trump. So it may be self-destructive. Lastly, I'm not sure it even achieves its goal very well: organisations can always find ways to avoid such measures. So is it really worth it?

@Mitch With positive discrimination, I do not believe that is true. Positive discrimination always prefers one person over another person. That other person is disadvantaged by this. If you decided to favour women, for example, poor, gay, handicapped Muslims might be skipped who would otherwise be hired. This is not a joke. Other measures against discrimination do not have this effect: they will improve the situation of those in need without directly disadvantaging others.

In conclusion, I am not a fervent opponent of positive discrimination. I could probably live with it. But I doubt whether it would be a good idea.

Faheem Mitha

4:02 PM

@Mitch It might, depending on how you do it, and what you mean by help.

And on your definition of help.

@Mitch I don't think these kinds of discriminations are made on the basis of wealth. They're often made on the basis of race. And there are plenty of poor people in any race, for example.

@M.A.R. But two wrongs don't make a right.

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha yes, that's the essence of positive discrimination for me.

Cerberus

One wrong may partly solve the old wrong. But I don't think that is enough.

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. I think we're on the same page here. And probably with @Cerberus too.

Or maybe not. :-)

Cerberus

Yeah.

M.A.R.

I'm on page 586.

Faheem Mitha

4:06 PM

I've never been a fan of positive discrimination myself. Though I can see its appeal.

M.A.R.

Hawking is a great writer. Who knew.

Faheem Mitha

Speaking as a group that nobody would dream of positively discriminating in favor of.

@M.A.R. Pg 586 of what?

Robusto

@FaheemMitha Or, to put it the way racists in America did to justify laws restricting Chinese immigration, "Two Wongs don't make a White."

Cerberus

Haha.

Faheem Mitha

@Robusto Hmm. Actually, I recently learned that there were aggressive anti-Chinese laws in the early 20th century, and before. They kind of faded out after WW2. I didn't know about this at all. But it's right there in Wikipedia.

Cerberus

4:08 PM

There have always been aggressive anti-foreigner laws around the world...

Matt E. Эллен

4:33 PM

@FaheemMitha well, I was feeling lazy and I know most people in here will know what I mean (i.e. diverse)

@M.A.R. I don't see why that would be the only option. things would shake out however they shake out

JTP - Apologise to Monica

@FaheemMitha - unfortunately, yes.

CowperKettle

Nice weather, +2 C

M.A.R.

5:49 PM

@CowperKettle Noice. Me 6:10/km, 58 mins

@CowperKettle I'd probably suffocate in 2 degrees C. It'd be too dry.

CowperKettle

6:25 PM

@M.A.R. My hardware/software configuration is glitchy, and somewhy undercounts about 40 seconds, so I mentally add 40 seconds. It's not 5:11 but 5:51/km

No, it's not dry

It's somewhy easier to run at this temperature, judging by my heart rate, which was below 150 bpm the whole run.

M.A.R.

@CowperKettle Oh, the effect is not caused by the absolute humidity of the air

The vapor pressure of water decreases in colder temperatures (water vapor has a harder time) staying in the air, and our lungs always humidify air (the water vapor is always more in the exhaled air than inhaled) Because cold air keeps relatively less water vapor, our lungs struggle more to humidify it, so we feel like the air is drier.

@CowperKettle I guess that would be because you didn't lose much fluids compared to warmer temperatureS

When I sweat profusely, just the sweat makes it harder for me to continue even when I'm otherwise doing fine

CowperKettle

6:51 PM

> The shortest duration ever measured is now 247 zeptoseconds—the time it takes for a photon to get from one side of a hydrogen molecule to another. sciencenews.org/article/…

A zeptosecond is a trillionth of a billionth of a second

M.A.R.

You never know when these "accuracy record rushes" would be fruitful. A couple of dudes were experimenting with a very sensitive microwave detector in 1960 and they discovered the universal background radiation.

JTP - Apologise to Monica

If that photon took my mother in law along for the journey, it would have felt like an entire picosecond. (I'm here till Thursday. Try the veal)

Robusto

7:11 PM

@CowperKettle Isn't that longer than a Planck length? Which I think is the time it takes a photon to pass the width of an electron? In either case, it's still not as short as a New York minute.

Not Planck length, Planck time. I get so confused ...

@JTP-ApologisetoMonica Has anything happened with regard to Monica lately? It doesn't look like it.

JTP - Apologise to Monica

She has mostly left SE, and is on another network. Sorry it came to that.

Robusto

7:34 PM

@JTP-ApologisetoMonica Are there other comparable networks?

Mitch

@M.A.R. No one is asking for hypercorrection or retribution. Just fairness. It's not demoting or firing the one guy and replacing with another. It's for new positions or opportunities.

@Cerberus Yes, I totally understand the -perceived- injustice. The white guy has been struggling so hard to get to where he is and then all of a sudden things are even harder.

But for all the good things he got before he had no idea how much easier it was because some other group was getting nothing or even less.

@M.A.R. My book only goes up to 350 pages.

M.A.R.

@Mitch I think we're disagreeing on the magnitude of this correction, as usual. I'm not disagreeing with the minorities having more chances, but having a bigger chance than a member of a majority would

Mitch

@M.A.R. Yes, there's a philosophical problem of how much correction, do you go for just equality now (to slowly get parity over time( or do you go further and give more to the oppressed group than to the well-off group in order to achieve parity immediately.

But yes, I think we're all for fairness.

There's a case for unfairness to be made, ie favor locals and not foreigners, or favor the winners because they won they should get all the benefits of the struggle to win.

But I think as scarcity is less and economies become richer, it is -possible- to be fair.

M.A.R.

@Mitch Well I was under the impression that 'positive discrimination' constitutes all of the latter and none of the former.

Mitch

@M.A.R. members of the well-off group tend to see it that way because (as mentioned before) they don't experience the extra hardship that the less well-off have always had.

M.A.R.

7:49 PM

@Mitch Well I don't belong to any of the well-off groups other than perhaps being a male and a Muslim (in a country of 99 percent (?) Muslim population) I think it was, by definition, the latter, and whatever I've said I've based it on that interpretation.

Mitch

@M.A.R. If 'positive discrimination' were to be enabled there for non-Muslim hirings, it does not mean 'OK now we're only going to hire non-Muslims'. That would rightfully be understood to be an awful policy.

of course 99% is a lot and enforcing fairness might be kind of hard then mathematically.

M.A.R.

@Mitch But if the hiring would ultimately increase the chances of the minorities being selected so much that they would actually be higher than the Muslim population, it wouldn't make much sense.

Mitch

@M.A.R. Yes, I agree.

People (well-off groups) grumble at quotas, but I'd hope the numbers are agreed upon to be fair.

M.A.R.

@Mitch I'm pretty sure there's some room for vagueness here. It doesn't have to reflect an accurate number or proportion, just as long as there's no truth the statement that "It's much easier for Jews to be employed than us" would be just the perception of some people (probably with anti-semitic tendencies)

@Mitch AFAIK they often aren't when the companies want to declare themselves "inclusive", but I don't have any experience of that myself.

Mitch

@M.A.R. There will always be people who are dicks.

M.A.R.

7:59 PM

Oh, that's a run-on sentence but I'm too lazy to edit.

BBL biochem awaits

Mitch

What are good words for 'well-off' and 'not well-off'?

because those suck

M.A.R.

well-off, well-on, obviously

Mitch

Oppressors/oppressed isn't good

rich/poor ain't it

majority/minority isn't always the case.

M.A.R.

🍔 🌿

Mitch

@M.A.R. I can't read emoji. Is that a hamburger and marijuana? Are you eating edibles?

Robusto

8:08 PM

@Mitch Yeah, it's even worse when there are stacks of them and you're reading on your phone. WTF do they even mean?

Mitch

@Robusto I'm sure they mean -something- but who can be sure? Also, why -those- emoji? Some teenager from Kazakhstan would have made a totally different list.

JTP - Apologise to Monica

8:33 PM

@Robusto - I lost track of it, but it seemed to be a very similar structure. And meant to be so.

Robusto

@JTP-ApologisetoMonica Interesting.

I wish them luck.

M.A.R.

9:09 PM

@Robusto comparable in size (to SO), definitely not. But she moved on and with a few similarly disgruntled SE users, created the likes of Codidact.

And I dunno if it's -dai- or -dee-

Life goes on I guess.

Robusto

@M.A.R. Until it doesn't.

M.A.R.

SE somehow got away with keeping Chipps at one of the positions of authority while convincing the remaining community to be vaguely hopeful of future updates

5

It's like the captain that sunk the last one is still in charge but now they have pulled a dirty PR trick by implementing some inconsequential trivial features and managing to convince a lot of people they're now on the right track.

And well, something did change, probably for good. It's the normal cycle of these sites that people come, full of energy and knowledge to share, and burn out a while later. What changed was that the users that hadn't burned out yet decided not to go the extra mile and put much heart into what they're doing. I don't have any data to back this up though.

The people only stay out of habit, and to stay in touch with some often long-time chat acquaintances, but they'll be more unlikely to decide to help a noob get an answer, do a huge edit with no rewards, and the general dusting and cleanup that becomes necessary over time.

While SE was small-ish, people were no less aware that it's not them who run these sites really, but it was an appealing illusion that the community was collectively theirs, and the few folks who could push the buttons were friendly enough to be sometimes considered "one of us". After Chipps tweets that people complaining about a ridiculous policy are part of the problem and long-term users who literally built some of these communities from scratch who decided to go on a strike were told

"good riddance", that was bluntly illuminating.

Loong summarizes it pretty well:

in The Periodic Table, Oct 25 at 8:09, by Faded Giant

@skillpatrol After a similar debacle two years ago, it was still like this:

in The Periodic Table, Oct 25 at 8:09, by Faded Giant

c.f.

in The Periodic Table, Oct 25 at 8:09, by Faded Giant

TED talk over

Robusto

9:52 PM

@M.A.R. Yeah. Their attitude seemed to be "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out."

RegDwigнt

10:44 PM

Glenn Gould talks about Stravinsky, Schoenberg, and Soviet music

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@Robusto I guess this is probably on your recommended list as well now. I just watched it. Fantastic. Won't even bother with an executive summary, in the 40 minutes he touches on way too many things. Certainly more than just the three in the title. And also I don't want to spoil. Exquisite. Even though as always, half of what he says is contrarian to say the least.

Cerberus

11:07 PM

@Mitch That does not apply to the individual.

Transcript for

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