English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

MetaEd

00:00

These days, my litmus test for general reference on the meaning of a word or phrase is pretty much [ define word or phrase ] at Google. I think "define:" behaves no differently from "define ".

Vitaly

Well, Google isn't exactly a general reference, and the “definition” that it provides is fetched from some source by an automated algorithm

Robusto

> Holmes' apartment was loaded with explosives and authorities say they will not know for sure what is inside until they enter and test results come back from an FBI lab. A robot was sent in to disarm and diffuse the major threats as well as remove evidence.

I think they mean defuse, not diffuse. Nice going, Fox News.

simchona

@Robusto Threats for all!

David Wallace

Pah, don't go learning English from Fox News.

Mitch

@Vitaly but is what we are all using (no one is picking up a physical dictionary)

Robusto

00:01

@DavidWallace Hey, it was a Google News link.

Gigili

What the hell, who downvoted @MetaEd's answer?

David Wallace

@Mitch OALD's contribution is the "drowning man" picture. It doesn't really reflect what we native speakers are trying to say when we say "clutching at straws".

simchona

@Gigili Don't look at me.

Vitaly

@Mitch but the first actual link leads to thefreedictionary, which is largely based off of American Heritage Dictionary and similar GR works, which is no different from picking up an AHD hardcopy.

MetaEd

@Vitaly Google is so good at indexing definitions of things, though, that the search seems to align very well with what I consider general reference.

If there is a well known definition of a word or phrase, it generally finds and links to it.

Robusto

00:04

I just provided a remedial upvote. He has the correct answer. The image is of a man drowning.

Gigili

stares @simchona down

simchona

@Gigili Nope. I'm eating and watching tv

Gigili

:5458148 Huh, you got it.

Mitch

@DavidWallace I'm am supporting what MetaEd is saying. WHat do we consider a general reference? SOmething that is found easily. Were only finding things with google (or some other search engine)

David Wallace

I am sitting next to a bookshelf that has at least a dozen dictionaries on it.

There is no excuse for me using google to find anything out.

Robusto

00:05

I don't think it's gen-ref. And MetaEd did some decent work, so I say leave it be.

David Wallace

Hahaha! And by implication, I didn't do any work at all!

Robusto

@DavidWallace Have you considered laziness? Printed dictionaries are big and cumbersome, and you have to put in a lot of manual labor flipping pages..

Mitch

@Gigili I didn't but he basically gave an almost exact synonym as a definition the first line doesn't 'add' anything...if you don't know what 'clutching' means in that context, then you won't know what 'grasping' means either)

David Wallace

@Robusto One of mine certainly is.

Robusto

@DavidWallace No, you did what we call "phantom" work. You cheated by using your memory and your imagination. I have resorted to those things on more than one occasion.

MetaEd

00:07

@Mitch It's all right. I carry a poetic license.

Mitch

@DavidWallace dude, same here, but not everybody has that. so it is very reasonable to think that the 'general' reference is something available to everyone.

David Wallace

@Robusto My memory, my imagination, and Vitaly. Don't forget Vitaly!

Robusto

I have the Compact Edition of the OED. Not only do I have to flip pages, but I have to get out the goddamn magnifying glass. Much easier to let my fingers fiddle with the keyboard.

MetaEd

@DavidWallace I don't know your mind yet but I do get what you are saying about Vitaly. He seems very knowledgeable.

Mitch

@Robusto THat's exactly my attitude.

too small print.

even with the magnifying glass

David Wallace

00:09

I have the Compact Edition of the OED. I can't be bothered with the magnifying glass.

Robusto

I only resort to the OED if there is an etymological or historical usage I absolutely need to investigate.

Mitch

and a quote of usage.

user19161

@DavidWallace Which is different from the Compact OED.

MetaEd

How much is the online subscription to the OED?

Robusto

@DavidWallace You have a Vitaly? I have one too! Wait, are we talking about the same person?

David Wallace

00:10

@MetaEd If you live in Wellington, New Zealand, you can have it for free.

Matt Эллен

@MetaEd do you have a library card?

Mitch

free if you go through your local public library (in many places in the US)

Gigili

@Mitch But his last definition fits perfectly.

Matt Эллен

your library might be subscribed

Vitaly

Jinx galore.

Matt Эллен

00:11

@Vitaly all thanks to you!

MetaEd

Library. I do have a library card and I should see if the local library has it online.

Mitch

@Gigili I was just trying to explain the possible downvote.

Vitaly

Mar 26 at 18:49, by Vitaly

@Mahnax if your library subscribes to OED Online (that is, pays the OUP for access to OED Online), then you can type in your library card number and get logged in

Matt Эллен

@MetaEd go to OED.com and sign in there

Vitaly

Mar 26 at 18:48, by Vitaly

Mitch

00:12

@MetaEd I only realized recently (past couple months). the search function is misleading though. It really shows how great the OED is, but also its limitations.

Gigili

@Mitch Well then, I was just trying to explain why the downvoter should remove it.

Mitch

@Gigili who knows why they really downvoted or if they'll ever visit again. (that's not cynical, just probability of revisiting a question)

Robusto

I think it was @Cerberus. I'm going with that supposition until I find some proof or he confesses.

Mitch

I think quite a few things that are bad on this site are attributable to @Cerberus.

David Wallace

He might deny it. It seems more reasonable to hold the supposition until he denies it. Holding the supposition only until he confesses it seems a little irrational.

Cerberus

00:16

I will gladly take the blame for everything, as long as I'm allowed to go to bed.

Mitch

I think if Cerberus were to deny it, it would just prove the point.

Robusto

@DavidWallace That's the beauty of it. He won't understand why we are withholding doggy treats.

Cerberus

It's 120 past bed hour already.

Mitch

He's not here is he?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus why are you not in bed?

Cerberus

00:16

"Why", you sound like my mother.

MetaEd

Hmm. The library card login is mentioned in the help, but doesn't appear in my browser.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus Well, you're the one who wants sleep!

Robusto

@Cerberus I'll take that as a confession.

simchona

Can we stop the Spanish Inquisition?

Matt Эллен

@simchona Ha!

Robusto

00:17

Nobody can stop the Spanish Inquisition!

simchona

Nobody expects it, but nobody needs to cop to a downvote

Mitch

I didn't expect that.

Vitaly

Huh...

Matt Эллен

lol

Vitaly

I have just tried logging in, too

It seems they have changed their login window

Mitch

00:18

did it work?

Matt Эллен

@MetaEd click on "sign in"

Vitaly

Nope.

David Wallace

@simchona So long as you're not expecting to expect it before you stop it.

Matt Эллен

oh

Robusto

Wait, did @Cerberus go to bed?

Matt Эллен

00:18

that's disappointly new

like, since yesterday

David Wallace

Does Cerberus ever go to bed?

Gigili

Does Cerberus?

Mitch

oed.com upper right corner 'sign in'

oed.com/loginpage

Vitaly

@Mitch nice find, thanks

Matt Эллен

well, registration is free

MetaEd

00:20

@Mitch Right. That prompts for e-mail address and password, and there's no library card prompt. Ah, but the "loginpage" has it!

Matt Эллен

interesting

@MetaEd totally free registration though

MetaEd

@MattЭллен But I assume if I register on my own I am still getting restricted access, whatever that means. For an annual rate of $295, I'd expect to get something more than the free access.

Matt Эллен

@MetaEd yeah, but if you try and access anything "premium" it asks for your library card number

Mitch

OK actually -trying- that wiht my US library card number, it doesn't work...

Matt Эллен

then you can try it

Mitch

00:23

further info at those pages say you can type in your UK library card number for it to work.

Matt Эллен

oh

MetaEd

@Mitch Dropping my library card number into the field and entering it results in going back to the main page with no error, nothing.

Mitch

What I do is go to my local library's page, login there, and then I get access to the OED (same pages). The login for me is not through the OED page but from my local library

David Wallace

I just typed in my Lower Hutt library card number. I didn't expect it to work, because I couldn't find OED mentioned on the Hutt library web site. But it worked! Yay!

MetaEd

I finally got a more reasonable prompt when I pressed a back button. There was a dropdown at the top of the screen asking for my library card number. However it's not accepting it.

Mitch

00:25

@MetaEd did you try your local library? (where your library card is with)

MetaEd

@Mitch No, according to this page, libraries all over the world also provide remote access.

Vitaly

@MetaEd well, there's a text field on the main page where you enter your query. Try entering something and see if you get the entry or the access is denied for your library card number.

MetaEd

@Mitch I'll have to contact my local branch and see.

Matt Эллен

@DavidWallace their timeline tool is like a better version of google ngrams

David Wallace

I'll have to try it out some time.

MetaEd

00:26

@Vitaly It was not recognized. But then my local library system may just not pay for remote access.

Vitaly

Do you get this?

Mitch

@MetaEd Right, I think that implies 'rest of the world' has to go through some other page first.

MetaEd

@Mitch I didn't take it that way. Both UK and other seem to either let you access OED locally (i.e. at the library) or remotely (i.e. elsewhere) or both.

Actually, the miracle is that I could even find my library card that quickly.

Anyway, time for me to toddle off and get something to eat with the family.

Gigili

Have fun.

The third one who voted to close downvoted, so I'll find out who it was when the question is closed.

grins vacuously

simchona

@Gigili In that person's defense, it doesn't look like you tried to look the phrase up, even though we know you did

Gigili

00:36

@simchona Right, I'm just curious.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus are you still awake?

Gigili

@Cerberus Noch wach?

user19161

@Gigili How do you know that?

Gigili

I was looking at the Q and both appeared at the same time.

Cerberus

Close votes may not appear in chronological order.

Okay, bed time!

Goodbye, boys and girls.

Matt Эллен

00:42

Sleep tight!

Cerberus

Bye!

Gigili

Hum, a strange coincidence then.

Good night!

simchona

@Cerberus The names on the votes are in the order of voting, though

Gigili

I'm so tempted to vote to close my own question just to see who it was.

Cerberus

@simchona You shoa?

simchona

00:45

@Cerberus Mhm

Cerberus

All right, then.

Well, good night!

Mitch

@Gigili can you really do that?

Gigili

Apparently so.

Someone will be killed with one bullet.

OK, let me guess.

It is : Vitaly, Sim, Mitch, Robusto, ...

simchona

@Gigili I was first, I think

Gigili

Not sure about Robusto, it might be a user from the main site, J.R or something.

Vitaly was first.

I bet.

simchona

00:48

I'm pretty sure he wasn't.

I told you I voted about 20 minutes after I really did

I have no idea why I'm fighting about this

Gigili

Umm, let's see then.

Are we fighting now? I didn't notice.

simchona

No, I meant like being all "no, I was first!"

user19161

@Gigili Still, that does not guarantee anything.

simchona

Not like fisticuffs

Gigili

Umm, but I still think it was Vitaly.

user19161

00:51

I think I cast a close vote on your question @gig.

Gigili

@JasperLoy I don't claim that it does.

Vitaly

870 5 22

You can close questions with 870 reps now?

Gigili

@JasperLoy Oh, You're the third one?

user19161

@Gigili I dunno, but I did not down you.

Gigili

@Vitaly You can.

Vitaly

00:52

Pray tell.

user19161

@Gigili I cannot?

Gigili

@JasperLoy You can if you try.

user19161

@Gigili I know why he can: because he believed. QED.

Gigili

So it is: Sim, Umm Matt maybe, jasper, Mitch

No, Sim Mitch jsper Matt

@JasperLoy Miracle. QED.

user19161

@Gigili But I did not down you, and you know I don't lie.

David Wallace

00:55

How does Vitaly only have 870 rep?

Gigili

Simply because he asked 10 questions and answered four.

user19161

@DavidWallace He could have given 50k away in bounty.

David Wallace

I feel a serial upvote coming on.

Vitaly

May 14 '11 at 13:56, by RegDwight

You're so repophobe, Vitaly, that's really something.

Gigili

What does "repophobe" mean? This certainly is not a GR question.

Matt Эллен

01:03

rep-o-phobe

Gigili

Oh. Thanks.

David Wallace

All of Vitaly's answers have been accepted!

He's that good!

user19161

@DavidWallace He is awesome like that.

David Wallace

Or he deletes his answers if they don't get accepted, after a certain amount of time.

And there's only four left!!

Gigili

Who left?

My question needs a Reg to get closed!

user19161

01:17

@Gigili I can't believe it's still not closed.

Gigili

@JasperLoy It is awesome like that.

simchona

02:29

-1

Q: Could Be Counting

Let's somebody in some current situation give me a box of apples and he claims there are 5 apples in the box, but there are only 4 apples when I look into the box: "I can only see 4 apples." "I can only count 4 apples." "I see only 4 apples." "I count only 4 apples." It seems the sentences 1,...

meaning grammar idioms usage

He's back

Meysam

03:44

which one? "this movie is worth watching" or "this movie is worth being watched"?

cpx

I think the most commonly spoken sentence is "this movie is worth watching".

Meysam

ok thanks

user19161

06:13

@Meysam To me, only the first one is correct.

user19161

07:52

Hello @gigili.

David Wallace

09:20

@Meysam I think you mean "this movie is worth watching". To say "this movie is worth being watched" means "I don't mind if someone is watching me - seeing this movie makes it worth it". Or some other creepy proposition.

Matt Эллен

10:22

flaggit

-4

A: What does "tink, terry tink" mean in "I’ll mend them all with a tink, terry tink,"?

FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAG...

user19161

@MattЭллен I flagged all three.

Matt Эллен

there was more than one! I don't know. some people!

user19161

@MattЭллен Same user. He's just a maggot.

user19161

@MattЭллен How was thy Sat?

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Vote to delete.

@Matt, can you vote to delete?

We need only 3 votes total.

Matt Эллен

10:26

no

Cerberus

Aww.

user19161

@Cerberus No.

Matt Эллен

but after 6 spam/offensive flags it gets auto deleted

Cerberus

Oh, well. One more vote needed.

Auto-deleted, really?

@JasperLoy You can vote to delete!

Matt Эллен

yep :)

Cerberus

10:27

That's nice.

user19161

@Cerberus Done for all three.

Cerberus

Good.

Matt Эллен

> That is the end of my spam. I hope it gave you many lulz.

hmmm

user19161

Such maggots help to increase our flag weight, lol.

Matt Эллен

yay!

user19161

10:30

@MattЭллен It did give me the lolz.

Matt Эллен

success!

user19161

So in a way, the spammer was successful.

Matt Эллен

yes. spammers are always successful if their spam gets seen

@Cerberus I find this out back in March:

Mar 30 at 10:13, by Vitaly

@WillHunting Yes it does. You need 6 spam flags for it to be auto-deleted.

Who the fuck up voted anon's answer?

I smell a sock puppet. It's not me, although I do need to shower

Cerberus

It stinks.

@MattЭллен Where do you see that?

Matt Эллен

possibly in the now deleted answer, or it got ninja edited out

Cerberus

10:44

@MattЭллен I don't see it.

-8

A: What does "tink, terry tink" mean in "I’ll mend them all with a tink, terry tink,"?

Censored: this contained only profanity and needs a few more flags / delete votes to disappear. — Cerberus

But I have censored it.

Should have done that immediately.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus well, he had 3 answers, now only 2 show in his profile, so it could be in the one I don't have a link for anymore

Cerberus

Ohh not this answer, OK.

Matt Эллен

In this answer

Cerberus

Ah, haha.

Well, it did.

user19161

11:22

Let me share with you the comments on the deleted spam post.

user19161

english.stackexchange.com/questions/75477/…

Cerberus

Oh?

user19161

english.stackexchange.com/questions/75477/…

Cerberus

Haha.

Odd fellow.

He can even spell.

user19161

There are three kinds of nutcases as you may have heard: the bad, the mad and the sad. ELU has all three.

Gigili

11:25

And possible combinations of the three.

Hullio.

user19161

Boo!

Matt Эллен

@Gigili iglesias?

Gigili

Yes, that.

Matt Эллен

I see. Well, Hullio to you too!

user19161

@MattЭллен What are you guys talking about? Is this a new language?

Matt Эллен

11:27

@JasperLoy Julio Iglesias is a singer. the J is pronounced sort of like H

user19161

@MattЭллен Another JLO! LOL.

Matt Эллен

quite

David Wallace

@MattЭллен Hah! I understood that!

Matt Эллен

Then my joke was not entirely in vain :)

user19161

@DavidWallace Have a cookie.

David Wallace

11:31

I have more cookies than I know what to do with!

user19161

@MattЭллен It is in vain because you are vain.

Matt Эллен

It would have been, yes

user19161

Who here uses Firefox ESR instead of release, and why?

David Wallace

It was in vain, because only @Gigili and @JasperLoy had the opportunity to get it. I don't want to speak for The Giggly One, but it looks like Jasper failed!

user19161

@DavidWallace Yes, I did fail, I am honest like that.

David Wallace

11:36

Damn! UniMouS edited the question after I answered it. So I had to edit my answer!

user19161

@DavidWallace Shit happens. Sometimes the original answer does not make any more sense.

David Wallace

I hate it when people edit their questions after I've answered them.

user19161

Sometimes it becomes a completely different question. I usually downvote these.

David Wallace

If the OP wants to ask a different question, they should freaking well ask a different question.

user19161

Sometimes they just cannot make up their mind what to ask.

David Wallace

11:40

I had one once who asked Q1 of their homework, on Math. After I answered it, they edited the question to replace it with Q2.

Turned my answer into complete nonsense.

user19161

@DavidWallace Next thing you know someone answers it and it turns into Q3!

David Wallace

I stopped answering it at that point.

And put a rude comment, so that other people would realise what was happening.

I think I downvoted too.

Gigili

11:55

@MattЭллен Thank you, Matt. Thank you.

Cerberus

12:11

Heya.

docs.google.com/spreadsheet/…

Can you see this?

Gigili

Yes?

David Wallace

You seem very sure?

Gigili

Yes?

Cerberus

12:37

OK good.

Thanks for checking, guys.

@DavidWallace Who?

Frank Science

13:06

I have a question about AmE and BrE.

It is said that The subjunctive mood (morphologically identical with the bare infinitive) is regularly used in AmE in mandative clauses (as in They suggested that he apply for the job).

Matt Эллен

Frank Science

terrorist?

Gigili

13:32

@Cerberus I was the only one who checked and I'm not a guy.

No more Mr. Nice Guy, then.

grabs a cactus

Jez

13:46

Hmm, why is it that we don't use a preposition for yesterday, today, and tomorrow, but we do for other days/times?

there's no "on tomorrow, we're going..."

user19161

@Jez When we say See you tomorrow, we are using tomorrow as an adverb and not a noun.

user19161

@skull Nice new avatar!

Jez

@JasperLoy that wasn't my question though

user19161

@Jez Well, then I don't have an answer, except just because.

2

skullpatrol

@JasperLoy thanks

Jez

13:53

you should definitely be able to say on yesterday, because "yester day" is an adjective+noun, not even a verb

Matt Эллен

you can say by yesterday

or after yesterday

do we use on with other statements of time?

Jez

we use at

Cerberus

@FrankScience This is true. What is your question?

Matt Эллен

you can use at with possessive days

Cerberus

@Gigili Girls can be guys. See the highly upvoted question on this site.

Matt Эллен

13:58

will you be at tomorrow's meeting?

user19161

@frank I see you are here as well!

Frank Science

@Cerberus I suggested that you take a deep breath.

@Cerberus Is it right?

Cerberus

Yes!

You could also say I suggested that you should take a deep breath, which is a bit more British.

Frank Science

Well, my question arose.

Cerberus

*arose

Frank Science

14:02

In that wiki, it seems that the sentence with should is not illegal in AmE.

And in that page, it's said that the sentence with should is manufactured in Lonton, not the original one.

user19161

@Cerberus Is that the subjunctive there in action?

Matt Эллен

@Jez: I guess certain prepositions have a limit of speciftivity (or whatever word I mean), so on can only be used for specific days, but not times or non-specific days (today, tomorrow, yesterday), at can only be used with times. There are probably other guides to style as well

Cerberus

@FrankScience Both are acceptable; it is just that the subjective construction is used more often in America.

@JasperLoy That is the past subjective of shall, yes, but it is obviously quite different from the present subjunctive as in take.

Frank Science

@Cerberus I wonder why the sentence without should appears first?

Cerberus

Appears first? Where?

Robusto

14:19

The most curious modal verb is must, which nowadays forms its past tense by means of "had to" but in older writing used the present form as past as well. E.g., "There was nothing for it but that I must bestir myself and see who was at the door."

Cerberus

@Mrs: Have you received your JB yet? It is being rolled out to the Nexus S as we speak, and they say the browser is significantly faster.

@Robusto It is still not dead in the past tense.

She knew that Wallace must be her cousin.

Frank Science

@Cerberus Compare AmE and BrE

Cerberus

@Robusto But I guess past must is now mainly used when the immediate context forces a past reading?

Frank Science

@Cerberus Read the last point.

Robusto

@Cerberus I really never see or hear it used. Like, ever.

Cerberus

14:24

@FrankScience Okay, what about it?

Frank Science

@Cerberus Seems that the sentence with should appears in 20th century.

Cerberus

@Robusto Probably not in casual American speech/writing any more...

Robusto

@Cerberus Probably. Still, I have only encountered it in ~pre-1900 literature, IIRC.

@Cerberus It's archaic for modern journalism, literature, and scientific writing as well.

Cerberus

@FrankScience Not really "appeared", but rather it became more common than before.

Frank Science

@Cerberus Oh, but I wonder whether the sentence without should is only an abbreviation of that with should?

Cerberus

14:28

@Robusto I don't know, there are many different genres in literature. Old fashioned, perhaps, but archaic?

@FrankScience Oh, no, that is not the case at all: the take after should is an infinitive, while the take without should is a present subjective.

They just happen to have the same form.

Just as "take him!" and "I take him" both have take, but it's not the same tense/mood.

Frank Science

If I were able to fly, I should first go to New York.

Is that should same as this should?

Gigili

This is amazing:

> Looking For Your Old School Photograph? We have one of the largest databases on the World Wide Web. Our company started in Ireland in 1994 with 7 staff. Today, World School Photographs have over 9,000 staff in 136 different Countries. Our Web Site has a 98% success rate. It is now one of the fastest growing sites on the Internet. Also works for: University, Graduation, College, Army, Academy, High School, Primary Schools, Secondary Schools

Cerberus

@FrankScience Ehm, it is also a past subjunctive, so the tense/mood is the same; however, even the same tense/mood can be used with very different functions, as you see. Here, should just expresses an (uncertain) prediction about the future, where it expresses a sense of obligation in he suggested that I should leave.

Frank Science

I wonder the underlying logic of suggest-sentence.

Cerberus

@FrankScience The past subjunctive should has many different functions. If you look in the Oxford English Dictionary, you will see a huge list of functions that differ from each other by various degrees.

Frank Science

14:41

@Cerberus Take if-clause as an example: If A, B; where A=*were able to fly* and B=*I should first go to New York*. A is just a variant of past tense of am able to fly, and B is just past tense of shall first go to New York. I wonder the underlying logic where shall is stated implicitly in suggest-sentence.

Jez

> In conditional sentences, US spoken usage often substitutes would and would have (usually shortened to [I]'d and would've) for the simple past and for the pluperfect (If you'd leave now, you'd be on time. / If I would have [would've] cooked the pie we could have [could've] had it for lunch).

Ugh, I hate that. Americans who are doing this, please stop it.

it's not even fewer syllables

Frank Science

@Cerberus And why the sentence without should independent to the sentence with should, as you said, is also okay.

Cerberus

I'm afraid the underlying logic is weak in this case: in hundreds of years, the language has developed in more or less arbitrary ways. If you want to know the exact developments that led to this use of *should*, you would have to read a book about historical language change.
Note, however, the use of *should* in a simple sentence like *you should let her go*: the sense of obligation in this function of *should* is very common, and it is probably related to that in *she suggested that you should let her go*.

@FrankScience You'd need to read a lot about historical English grammar to fully understand it.

In a way, these things are arbitrary.

Robusto

15:55

@Cerberus Actually, now that I think about it, it occurs today most often in reporting instructions: "The teacher told me what I must do get good marks in the course." But at least in America, "had to" would still be the more likely choice.

Cerberus

16:18

@Robusto That was also my impression.

> despite its age, the Bible is still quite modern

2

@Robusto What do you think of this?

Disregard the truth of lack thereof.

Just the wording.

Mitch

16:44

@Cerberus I would partially disagree. It's not that things are arbitrary changes are rule based, it's just not always predictable which rule will be followed. A dental followed by a palatal glide, /ty/ often changes to a palatal affricate /tsh/, but sometimes it remains and it never changes (systematically) to /pw/.

as to semantic/syntactic shifts, same thing.

Cerberus

Nothing is arbitrary in the universe.

But for us puny humans...

user19161

17:40

@Robusto I usually use must there instead of had to.

user19161

@Cerberus What's special about the wording?

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…