English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

M.A.R.

00:49

@CowperKettle Laughs with everyone else

Nervous why-was-that-funny look

Mitch

02:10

@M.A.R. stifles a smirk

Færd

08:12

Good article on how we should fundamentally revise our perception of the police and the whole criminal justice system.

Mitch

13:41

@Færd Do you think this translates well to other cultures? mutatis mutandis, ceteris paribus and all that, whatever is paribussed

Matt E. Эллен

amo amar amat

Cerberus

(The top 7 are at the top but outside the screen area. Those are mainly the poorest countries in Latin America plus Brazil, Syria, and the Philippines.)

(I think many countries aren't in this list anyway.)

So 4 people were killed in the Netherlands by the police in 2017. Each death is of course terrible, but it's just not a big issue in Europe.

tchrist

14:08

@Cerberus A thousand a year here, more or less and probably more, for the past fifteen years running, at least.

Cerberus

I see it.

tchrist

Avoid suntans; they can be deadly if you're mistaken for a Mexican.

Cerberus

I do.

Factor 30.

And I normally don't sit in the sun anyway.

Matt E. Эллен

you're getting more deadly as the years pass

Færd

@Mitch Creating alternatives to policing? I think that should be the immediate and ultimate goal in most places.

Some of the propositions may be harder to implement for poorer countries, tho.

This doesn't excuse Iran's high rate at all, btw.

Cerberus

14:18

Færd

@Cerberus I see that more as a correlation than a causation.

Cerberus

The police in England and Wales only fired their guns 7 times in one year. I wonder if that includes firing at something other than people.

But they are not normally armed with guns. That helps a lot.

@Færd Why?

Færd

Because you wouldn't purchase and carry a gun if you weren't scared.

Cerberus

It kind of makes sense: if people carry guns, the police are scared more easily, so they might fire sooner. In addition, they fire to kill, because a down man can still shoot back at the police.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus certainly makes me feel safer.

Cerberus

14:21

Thirdly, the culture of violence in America, might 'normalise' shooting for policemen, too.

Færd

The freedom to have guns exists in some other countries, as opposed to the fear that drives people to arm themselves.

Matt E. Эллен

The centre of Thessaloniki is a bit scary as a Brit, when I see an armed cop

actually, same in London

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен I can imagine.

I suppose I am used to armed policemen. But anything other than a small pistol, in public, does scare me.

@Færd Gun ownership is much higher in America than in any European country, though.

Færd

@Cerberus Those are real factors. But it doesn't explain the discrepancy between the ratio of, say, Canada's ownership rate to its fatal shootings, to that of the US.

Cerberus

And I think it is much harder to buy a gun in those Western countries where you are allowed to own one at all.

Færd

14:23

@Cerberus There is a reason for that.

Or reasons. Which are not explained in that pictures.

Cerberus

@Færd Oh, of course it isn't simple correlation, between number of deaths per 100,000 inhabitants and number of guns per same.

Matt E. Эллен

it's because American's are scared of the British coming back to reclaim what's theirs

Cerberus

@Færd It is related to what I called a culture of violence above.

@MattE.Эллен Yeah, if Britain had managed to control America until 1900, it would have been a second Canada.

Matt E. Эллен

lol

Cerberus

But with more people.

Matt E. Эллен

14:25

that's a funny thought

Canada II

Færd

In America, the military and the police are one and the same. The same troops who police the planet, go back home to police the civilians. They use shared equipment and arms.

Cerberus

Their independence was ultimately a tragedy.

Færd

@Cerberus Right.

Cerberus

@Færd The equipment I know about. But the same people?

I don't think their army regularly patrols the streets?

Matt E. Эллен

but if you leave the forces, it's easy to become a cop

Færd

14:26

@Cerberus Not all of them, but some soldiers do join the police.

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Ah, OK, if that's what he meant.

@Færd So you meant after leaving the army, OK.

That's an interesting issue.

Færd

@MattE.Эллен Right. I think it happens at a specially high rate in the US.

Lemme see...

vox.com/2014/8/14/6003239/…

Cerberus

> We need to reimagine public safety in ways that shrink and eventually abolish police and prisons while prioritizing education, housing, economic security, mental health and alternatives to conflict and violence.

This would seem rather odd.

Of course the police are much too often present at all America, as the article says. And investing in non-violent ways to reduce crime and social issues would be a good idea.

And they imprison and kill far too many people. And their prisons are inhumane.

But abolish police and prisons altogether?

At any rate, this article does not apply to (most) other Western countries.

It is an American problem.

Færd

@Cerberus Especially so, but not exclusively.

This abolishment, to me, means radically changing those institutions. It requires fundamental changes to how we define, shape, organize, and protect our societies around the world too.

So it's not immediately achievable.

But it is possible.

In Iran, too, the army operating outside and the police quelling uprisings inside are closely linked. I can imagine a much more peaceful and less policed Iran only if we are at peace with our neighbors and with the world.

For now, it seems that we are going to reap what we and others have sewn for a long time. Which makes the above vision all the more necessary.

.

> Today just 6 percent of the population at large has served in the military, but 19 percent of police officers are veterans, according to an analysis of U.S. Census data...

themarshallproject.org/2017/03/30/…

I wonder how that compares to other countries.

Cerberus

14:49

@Færd I suspect will be different here. They are generally viewed as two very different career paths. There is little overlap between the jobs (except perhaps for those stationed for a long time in Afghanistan...).

But I have no numbers.

@Færd Not exclusively, but it is a problem that need not exist in rich countries.

@Færd That sounds like an excellent idea.

But "we": prisons in e.g. Holland or Scandinavia are already quite humane, and focused on reintegrating people into society once they are set free. Of course things could be improved.

I'm sure the same applies to e.g. England, Germany, New Zealand to some degree.

At least police violence really isn't a big issue.

Færd

Okay then. Good for you. :)

Cerberus

There will always be incidents, and things can certainly be improved. But I don't see a possible fundamental change.

More emphasis on prevention, emancipation, those things are always a good idea.

Færd

I would need to know more to comment on possible improvements.

Cerberus

Fewer military conflicts might very well help to make countries more peaceful internally as well, as you say.

Færd

Right. You've had the benefit of peaceful relations with each other for a long time.

You're not a United States of Europe, alas. But still.

And yet you're a fracture of the world's population. I guess that could justify the 'we' some.

Cerberus

15:00

@Færd I'm not sure we'd want that!

What do you mean by fracture?

Færd

10%?

It's weird that you have a somewhat unified economy without uniting in government. Looks like you've put the cart before the horse.

Matt E. Эллен

do you mean fraction?

Færd

I'm no economist tho. But I don't think Europeans can have democratic control over Europe's economy like this.

@MattE.Эллен Yes, my bad.

Matt E. Эллен

np :)

Cerberus

You're speaking in abstractions that I'm not sure how to respond to.

A unified economy: I don't know about that.

Democratic control over the economy: yes, to a considerable degree, but not over e.g. the currency or the central bank, except with great difficulty.

But what is your message here?

Matt E. Эллен

15:09

Europe's united in government insofar as there's freedom of movement, cooperation between police forces, laws that are manufactured centrally and applied to each nation. It's not like the USA, where the federal government has more control over the individual states, and states can't secede (AFAIK), so I think Europe's got a good balance, apart from all the capitalism

Færd

Okay, so let me try to be more specific: can you make long-term investments in more troubled parts of Europe (say, Greece) to help them bounce back, or is it only the central bank issuing more and more loans to that part while encouraging that local government to impose austerity measures on their people so they can pay back the loan?

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Agreed.

@Færd Who are "you", and what do you mean by "can make investments"?

Anyone can make long-term investments in Greece.

China has bought parts of the main port of Athens, I believe.

Færd

You = Europe

Cerberus

So that is what I am, OK.

But can you be more specific, or give an example?

I really don't know what you mean.

Færd

@Cerberus Put local workers to work with decent pay with a vision of long-term prosperity (advancing infrastructure, etc)

Cerberus

15:19

Anyone can do that?

Are you asking whether Greece is generally a safe place to invest in?

Generally, yes.

Færd

But a federal government can do it in a more concerted and organized way.

A central bank can only loan money.

Cerberus

I'm still confused.

Færd

And pressure the local government to imose austerity so they pay back sooner.

Cerberus

Investment is not typically something I associate with governments.

Færd

Okay right I don't mean that kind of investment.

Cerberus

15:22

The European government sends lots of money to Greece every year.

No loans.

Færd

I used it metaphorically.

@Cerberus Hmm.

I don't know much about Europe, you know.

Cerberus

This is money which is transferred directly.

Færd

Greek government-debt crisis

The Greek government-debt crisis was the sovereign debt crisis faced by Greece in the aftermath of the financial crisis of 2007–08. Widely known in the country as The Crisis (Greek: Η Κρίση), it reached the populace as a series of sudden reforms and austerity measures that led to impoverishment and loss of income and property, as well as a small-scale humanitarian crisis. In all, the Greek economy suffered the longest recession of any advanced capitalist economy to date, overtaking the US Great Depression. As a result, the Greek political system has been upended, social exclusion increased, and...

Cerberus

So the net contributors together pay about 3.3 billion to Greece each year, via the EU government institutions.

Færd

> On 2 May, the European Commission, European Central Bank (ECB) and International Monetary Fund (IMF) (the Troika) launched a €110 billion bailout loan to rescue Greece from sovereign default and cover its financial needs through June 2013, conditional on implementation of austerity measures, structural reforms and privatization of government assets.[85] The bailout loans were mainly used to pay for the maturing bonds, but also to finance the continued yearly budget deficits.

That's 2010, I guess.

Cerberus

15:25

Yes, that happens as well.

But the contributions from the chart above are not loans.

Færd

Okay.

Don't you think an overarching federal government would have been able to address that problem without pushing Greece into austerity and privatization?

And debt?

Cerberus

Able? The EU was able to do so, but it didn't wish to.

Just as e.g. the American government forces austerity on bankrupt places like Detroit.

Færd

Hmm. Maybe.

Cerberus

But, because some functions in America are carried out by the federal government which are, in Europe, carried out by member states, there is less of a safety net in Europe.

Færd

Isn't it the case that the people of Detroit potentially could have more say in the federal government than the people of Greece in the EU?

Cerberus

15:29

I don't think so? Why?

Færd

Like, is there a power imbalance in Europe, in favor of stronger economies like France and Germany?

Cerberus

They each can vote and have representation according to their share of the total population.

Færd

Oh. In all matters of the EU?

Cerberus

Representation in the European parliament is proportionate to population, but with an advantage to smaller countries (they get more seats per 1 million people).

But, yes, the larger and richer countries have more influence in other ways.

Færd

Ah okay.

Cerberus

15:32

If the net contributors decide they won't pay as much to the European budget for the next 7 years, that is a power the net recipients don't have.

Everything is a complex negotiation.

Færd

I was talking out of my ass, you know. It's a good way to learn if you have a patient chat buddy. Thanks.

Cerberus

E.g. the rich countries, which are critical of anti-democratic events in Poland and Hungary, may try to force those countries to keep their high courts independent, under threat of receiving less money.

Or, if France and Germany together really want something, they have a very strong position on any negotiating table.

It is a subtle game.

Færd

Okay.

Cerberus

So if your point is that, with a more centralised government structure, some problems could be avoided or solved more easily, like the Greek debt crisis, then the answer is possibly yes.

Færd

But you don't sound like you'd want that.

Cerberus

15:36

On the other hand, countries with debt used to devalue their currencies, which helped. With the Euro, Greece cannot do that any more.

In addition, the strength of the European economy kept the rate of the Euro high, which was bad for Greek exports.

So the Euro is a mixed bag for Greece.

@Færd I don't know what I want. The current degree of centralisation seems OK for now.

Færd

But there doesn't seem to be a way out for a country like Greece like this.

Cerberus

In a more centralised government, perhaps some corruption can spread more easily if the core has a problem, as with how Trump is appointing judges and important functionaries left and right throughout the country.

And I think a concentration of power in general is more prone to corruption. If an accident happens at the core, it will be very hard to counter that.

In America, you can get a lot done, as a bad actor, if you manage to influence a single man.

@Færd I think Greece should never have joined the Euro.

But I'm not sure what the solution to the Greek problem is.

Færd

@Cerberus There are checks and balances.

Cerberus

Yes.

But they have limits.

It will take a long time to undue the Trump damage. And they are lucky he didn't do more.

Færd

Yes. But that's not the only model.

If they had corrected/amended their constitution sensibly, they wouldn't have had a Trump in the first place.

Cerberus

15:42

It should be noted that some austerity in Greece was probably warranted. I'm not entirely sure how accurate this article is, but I know there is or were problems with the Greek age of retirement:

cbsnews.com/news/europe-balks-at-greeces-retire-at-50-rules

> In Greece, trombone players and pastry chefs get to retire as early as 50 on grounds their work causes them late career breathing problems. Hairdressers enjoy the same perk thanks to the dyes and other chemicals they rub into people's scalps.

Then there are masseurs at steam baths: they get an early out because prolonged exposure to all that heat and steam is deemed unhealthy.

Until the Greek debt crisis, northern Europeans looked at Greek early retirement with an amused roll of the eyes. But more and more such loopholes are angering them: they bristle at being asked to pay for their la…

In addition, I believe Greece now has a net surplus in their budget (if you discount the huge amounts of interest they pay).

So, in the long term, solutions do exist.

Færd

Right. To whom does the interest go, eventually?

Cerberus

To all who have bought Greek bonds.

Færd

Ie, the stronger economies of the EU?

So they get richer on the back of another member in relative misery.

Cerberus

Various institutions jumped in and bought tons of bonds to save Greece from going bankrupt.

Yes, the interest praesumably goes to those institutions now.

But I don't know at what rate they bought those bonds, commercial rates or special rates?

Last autumn: "More than a year after Greece exited its bailout programs, investors made history in the country Wednesday by buying its short-term debt at a negative yield, meaning they volunteered at least in theory to get less money back than they paid."

That was the commercial rate.

But I think it only applies to newly issued bonds.

Færd

@Cerberus Ah that's strange.

I think the buyers are going to make profits overall.

Cerberus

15:49

Well, people around the world apparently felt that Greece had solved its budget issues enough to make its bonds safe.

Færd

Or they wouldn't have bought them.

Cerberus

@Færd With new bonds, perhaps not.

With existing (older) bonds, most probably.

Færd

I see.

Cerberus

This is the primary surplus, so it would be negative if payment of interest were added.

I'm trying to find out how much interest Greece pays each year.

> In a 2013 report, the IMF admitted that it had underestimated the effects of so extensive tax hikes and budget cuts on the country's GDP and issued an informal apology

Færd

I was under the impression that this predatory behavior towards Greece was due to EU's structure: lack of centralized government, shared currency, shared central bank, more powerful beneficiaries, etc.

Mitch

15:56

@Cerberus How many arms do you have?

Cerberus

I was wrong, by the way: the figures above are without interest payments. Otherwise, the figures would have been negative still.

Færd

Okay.

Cerberus

@Færd I'm not exactly sure what the cause of the problem is. But I think predatory is a big word. Greece made a mess of its own finances.

@Mitch 0. Oh, I meant used to!

Færd

@Cerberus Maybe

Cerberus

The question is, what do you do when a member state has made a mess of things, although this mess is perhaps not entirely its own fault?

Mitch

16:00

@Cerberus Are we still discussing policing or have we moved on to geopolitics?

Cerberus

Would you really give them 100 or 200 billion euros, at a time when your own country is going through steep austerity measures itself?

Mitch

And I'm still confused about arms?

Cerberus

@Mitch The latter, but you can always pick up the former subject again!

@Mitch It was a typo: I am used to seeing armed policemen.

Færd

@Cerberus Government spending would be an option, if there was a centralized government.

The chidlren have stopped screaming. I'm going to take a nap.

Talk to you later.

Mitch

Every place has special problems: 2nd amendment history plus 'large' immigrant population (ie 99.9% but less consider themselves so) plus slavery. other countries don't have this combination. So solns for the militarization of the police in the US may not translate to other countries.

@Cerberus Here it seems all police have pistols that are modestly obscured with all the other equipment they have on their tool belts.

But I am always shocked at European airports (maybe just France and UK) where it seems like there's a military guard with a machine gun -in his hands- every hundred yards.

So it's what you're used to.

Cerberus

16:07

@Færd But government money is taxpayer money. It has to come from somewhere.

> (2017) The effect of the zero-interest policy is even more clear in the case of Italy. From 1670 billion in 2008, the debt rose to 2270 billion, but Rome now pays only 66 billion euro interest, whereas in 2008 it was still over 80 billion.
...
The debt level of the Southern European countries has drastically increased. In fact, the debt stand of the southern European countries has drastically increased in recent years, although the interest charges did not increase correspondingly. On the contrary, in many cases, they are now even lower than before the financial crisis – thanks to the EC…

I think that last "interest rate" should be "yearly amount paid in interest".

The rate has dropped.

So I can't find how much Greece pays on its debt.

But I think the percentage will be a bit more than what Italy pays, though less than in 2017.

Apparently, Italy paid 2.9% in 2017.

Let's say Greece pays the same rate in 2020.

Historically, that is a very low rate.

I remember, in school, we learned that 7% was a normal rate for Holland. I.e. the Dutch government paid a rate of 7% on its debt.

Now, that is of course much lower—much lower still than Italy.

So I suppose the European Central Bank theoretically profits from having saved Greece...but I'm not sure those profits will ever go to anybody. And the interest rate is low.

It's too complicated for me to understand.

Jasper