English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

21:01

@Mitch Good.

@Mitch I don't think Graves used a single source.

Mitch

@tchrist THE DOOMSDAY BOOK BY CONNIE WILLIS is one of the few by her that I haven't read.

@Cerberus You mean he translated it off the top of his head?

Cerberus

I, Claudius isn't a translation, is it?

Mitch

@Cerberus Uh...I think it was written in English originally.

Cerberus

Right.

Mitch

But the appendix of the Seneca satire was Graves' translation I'm pretty sure

"As I lay Dying" would totally fit in my list, but it's so melodramatic (but arguably so are the others in my list)

"Everything is Illuminated"

Is the common thread some pronoun? or implied anaphora?

"I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings"?

Why? WHY?

"If not now, when?" is a contender

If there were a book titled "Nolo Contendere" I'd put it on my list.

"The Other Side of Silence" ?

Yes, the theme might be 'Titles that are snippets from other works', but I think that is only a correlation.

Cerberus

21:18

Titles that include a verb?

Titles with unclear references?

Færd

Do people use transvestite as a pejorative?

Mitch

Non sum qualis eram bonae sub regno Cynarae

Is Google translated as:

I'm not what I was under the sway Cynarae

That doesn't seem right.

Title
1) with a verb
2) unclear references
3) that I like

mostly just #3

Cerberus

@Mitch Good.

@Mitch Under the sway of.

Mitch

@Cerberus but what about 'bonae'?

Cerberus

@Færd People who hold transvestites in low esteem probably do. But to me the word is neutral, descriptive.

@Mitch That belongs with Cynarae—yes, Google left it out.

Mitch

21:25

@Færd yeah it's somewhat neutral. It's too big and latinate a word to have much pejorative force if you call someone that out loud.

It's somewhat on the same area as (forgive the connection) 'fecal matter'. The stuff might be taboo or outre, but the word itself is not at all.

Færd

Ah okay. I read somewhere that the clean PC term is cross-dresser.

Mitch

@Cerberus but how would it be shoehorned into the google sentence?

Cerberus

@Mitch Under the sway of good Cynara?

Mitch

"I am not the same good thing that I was, under ..."

@Cerberus Oh.

back to Latin chapter 1

Cerberus

@Færd That's just crazy. It means exactly the same thing, it's just a loan translation.

@Mitch Bonae agrees with Cynarae.

Mitch

21:28

@Færd that is equally non-pejorative.

I suppose one could yell it at someone but it feels like it has the same force as 'You shoe-wearer' (assuming you're wearing shoes)

Færd

@Cerberus Of course. There's lots of crazy folks.

Then again the ODO definition of transvestite makes it sound dirty.

> A person, typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes primarily associated with the opposite sex.

As opposed to cross-dress:

Mitch

@Færd are there such terms for you?

(in your native language)

Færd

> Wear clothing typical of the opposite sex.

@Mitch I have to think.

There are phrases.

Mitch

@Færd but pejoration is a quality of a term, not of the concept.

Færd

And the clerics discuss whether it is "allowed" for men to dress in women's wear, based on Sharia law and stuff.

I don't recall a single word tho.

@Mitch But why does ODO give different definitions?

Mitch

21:32

In Deuteronomy (or is it Leviticus) crossdressing is proscribed, and I figure a lot of Old Testament laws trickle through to Sharia.

Færd

Uh-huh

Mitch

Is there a Sharia law about not weaving wool and flax together?

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Sure. But I wouldn't want to give myself such a crappy present.

Færd

@Mitch If there was I would know. So I guess not.

Mitch

@Færd people come to clerics in private to ask if the weird stuff they do at home is OK or not.

Færd

21:34

It may be frowned upon tho.

Mitch

And then the clerics publish it like a dear abbey advice column!

Færd

@Mitch Fuck that's just too true.

Like they ask for fatwas about using dildos and condoms and all.

Mitch

@Færd That's one of those weird Torah laws that just seems to pop up out of nowhere with no justification and then millennia afterwards scholars try to invent justifications for it.

Færd

And of course they don't get the most beneficial answers.

Mitch

like eating pork.

some olld guy 300 years ago didn't like eating pork, and said so, but then other people interpreted that as him saying that nobody should eat pork, and it was at the time they wre writing rules down and that got caught up in the list.

Færd

21:36

Wearing silk for men is haram (banned) for men. I don't think there's anything about wool and flax.

@Mitch I think the prophets were sometimes more direct about when they should be followed and when not.

Mitch

@Færd Exactly. They're all embarrassed and asking in whispers after prayer "Hey Mr Mullah, um, I got a question, I mean I got this friend who was wondering... and should I tell my friend to stop?"

Færd

@Mitch Imagine a woman describing her monthly cycle in detail and asking what exactly she should do or plug in her vagina.

Mitch

Shatnez

Shatnez (or shaatnez, [ʃaʕatˈneːz]; Biblical Hebrew Šaʿatnez שַׁעַטְנֵז ) is cloth containing both wool and linen (linsey-woolsey), which Jewish law, derived from the Torah, prohibits wearing. The relevant Biblical verses (Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:11) prohibit an individual from wearing wool and linen fabrics in one garment, the interbreeding of different species of animals, and the planting together of different kinds of seeds (collectively known as kilayim). == Etymology == The word is not of Hebrew origin, and its etymology is obscure. Wilhelm Gesenius' Hebrew Dictionary cit...

just remembered that.

@Færd Before modern media, who else would you ask?

Færd

You meaning devout Sharia followers?

Mitch

anybody

Færd

21:41

About what? I don't get the question.

Mitch

Oh. my question "Who else would you ask?"?

Færd

Yes! that one.

Mitch

"you" would be anyone and "who" would be the one's you might ask questions of.

Cerberus

@Færd I would say it can be for pleasure; otherwise, when one truly wants to be a woman in real life, one would usually be transsexual.

Mitch

Which I suppose is similar to what Catholics do in confession

which is of course what I was thinking of all along.

The hidden agenda

I don't know what Protestants do.

Read the Sunday papers?

Joe Jackson - Sunday Papers

►

Færd

21:43

@Cerberus Yeah but the explicit mention of pleasure makes it sound dirty. Sexual pleasure rather than general pleasure.

Cerberus

It can be sexual pleasure.

Probably often is, when one is not transsexual.

Færd

Doesn't have to be.

Cerberus

Or it could just be for fun.

Færd

@Mitch It doesn't work like that in Islam. Confessing your sins doesn't wash them.

Cerberus

What's the going rate for a murder absolution in Islam?

Færd

21:45

@Cerberus I don't think there's a constant rate.

Mitch

@Færd Oh...sorry, yes, I didn't mean that. I was just implying that often in a confession (I surmise) that one is asking if the things one is confessing to are actual sins and maybe they're OK.

Færd

Like giving absolution to murderers?

Cerberus

Most importantly, is it higher than for Catholics?

Færd

@Mitch Aha. I think in the past people called their marja's agencies.

Or they asked the Imam in their mosque.

@Cerberus Good question. I don't know.

Mitch

is a sheikh a kind of counselor/advice giver or is that muqtadeh?

What's a marja?

Færd

21:49

@Mitch The Islamic scholar that you believe is the most knowledgeable and pious and worthy of being followed.

@Mitch What's a muqtadeh?

Mitch

@Færd Like Muqtada al-Sadr

Færd

@Mitch Ah. That's not a generic epithet.

Mitch

Oh

Færd

@Mitch So you basically mean marja. If so, a random sheikh, if you trust him, could give you advice or tell you what your marja thinks you must do.

Mitch

OK. So sheikh is more of a leader, but marja is more of a person with respected opinions (not that those don't overlap conceptually)

Færd

21:54

Like what kind of wool you should thrust in your vagina and how deeply and whether you can pray afterwards or not.

Mitch

And there's no connection with 'Marjan' the girl's name?

Færd

@Mitch I imagine in different parts of the Islamic world it could mean different things. The literal meaning is old man. In Iran, it could mean a random mulla, maybe middle-aged or above.

@Mitch Hahaha no

Mitch

@Færd some random dude making up advice on the spot like "I don't like pork, you probably shouldn't eat it either"

Like my uncle.

What's a legal judge called?

is that the same as mullah? or is it a different title?

Færd

@Mitch Well they're not supposed to give their own opinions. They can run into trouble if they step out of line too much.

@Mitch That's just a judge. Yuo get a university degree in law and you apply for the job.

In farsi and arabic, it's qazi.

Mitch

@Færd OK. got it

Færd

21:59

Or ghazi.

Mitch

@Færd that's a commonly voiced complaint here, about judges who 'make' laws by interpreting then too much in a particular direction.

called 'legislating from the bench'

2

Q: What is the origin of the expression "legislate from the bench"?

What is the origin of the expression "legislate from the bench" used to describe "judicial activism" in the United States? Do judges have different seating arrangements from congressmen? In more detail, do legislators (congressmen) sit on different appliances as compared to judges? Why does "be...

Færd

Well those judges are certified and credentialed by an official organization, aren't they?

Marjas are like that too. They tell people their own interpretation of the Quran and Hadith. But they have to be qualified by the Howzah as a potential marja.

Interpretation might be too loose. There's not too much wiggle room in orthodox schools.

> Many people bring clothing to special experts who are employed to detect the presence of shatnez.

They don't take it lightly.

Mitch

22:16

@Færd Do marjas (marji? marjia?) go through the same/similar schooling institutions as qazi? or a separate education system?

Færd

22:32

@Mitch The Hawzah is the Islamic seminary. Qazis go to universities and study law.

Which in Iran is a discipline somewhat imbued with Islamic features, but is still independent of the Hawzah.

SmokeDetector

22:46

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] No whitespace in title, numbers-only title (121): 1234567891011121314151617181920 ✏️ by bob on english.SE

anongoodnurse

23:14

@tchrist - Yes, and that needs to change. In China, all - all - medical care and testing, etc., was free for this epidemic. There are a lot of takeaways from how China handled it; our "leaders" should really start implementing some of those right now. We could also use their expertise on how and whom to treat, too.

RegDwigнt

@Mitch ah but see, by telling me you failed at the "never even telling me" part.

Try again.

tchrist

23:43

@anongoodnurse Pence is going to go visit the Seattle cluster. Best we hope and pray for his miraculous good health just as he advised praying for those with HIV for their own recoveries.

@Mitch Do so.

@anongoodnurse They do know more now about keeping people alive than at the start. They've tried using remdesivir, and we did on one patient as well. Semi-hemi-tech info at statnews.com/2020/03/02/…

> [Computational biologist named Trevor] Bedford said Seattle faces a stark choice — take aggressive actions to slow down the spread of the new coronavirus now or face the type of outbreak that engulfed Wuhan’s health facilities and led to a lockdown of the city that remains in place six weeks later.

From statnews.com/2020/03/03/… yesterday

There's more from math guys in that article. Either they clamp down immediately with draconian measures, or else it's going to completely explode. There are 500–600 people walking around with it unbeknownst to anyone. It may be too late already.

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