English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

anongoodnurse

01:44

@tchrist - Yeah, you're right on both counts. The lack of ventilators is going to be a huge problem, especially because people who might be regarded as beyond saving are actually not, they're surviving. But we can use CPAP and BiPAP for less severe cases. But I do think this is going to be a huge wake-up call, esp. in the non-draconian-approach US.

tchrist

@anongoodnurse CPAP and BiPAP? I'd definitely had the impression that they meant full intubation.

Seattle on March 1st is looking like Wuhan on January 1st. The longer they delay draconian measures, the further along the unchecked epidemic curve they'll be before any corrective measures can check that exponential growth.

Identifying and isolating all contacts of known cases, then tracing and watching the contacts' contacts.

Forbidding all large group gatherings.

Far wider/more-liberal testing of any URI patients without any already positively identified pathogen.

Although that does miss those who first present with symptoms more closely associated with enteroviruses than with rhino- or corona-.

I believe we're already seeing long-distance spread popping up in other states that can be positively traced to the Seattle cluster. I don't know what that means for travel.

We need to assume by default that all new severe respiratory cases could wind up being corona, and so handle each of those with full protective measures available to healthcare workers. We haven't been doing that, and neither did China at first, and this has contributed to widespread infection rates among healthcare workers. You just cannot let that happen or everything collapses.

anongoodnurse

02:16

Yes, people will need ventilators, an order of magnitude more than we have available. But for those who are less critical, we can use these lesser respiratory aids.

@tchrist This is true. And te US is not like China, who for all the criticism, handled it pretty well.

@tchrist My oldest son is a nurse, and they only today began to discuss emergency measures (ventilator situation mostly), not even self protection.

tchrist

I'm worried about American without paid sick time going to work with cold-like sniffles rather than take unpaid time away that they might not be allowed to return from.

@anongoodnurse I don't even know what to say to that. It's unconscionable.

anongoodnurse

I'm worried about everything related to this virus. Americans just aren't ready or able to deal with this virus.

It's going to be... awful.

tchrist

I think so. The people I know who have the most experience in this seem to be sweating bullets about it.

anongoodnurse

I heard something about doing away with the idea of "sick time".

tchrist

I hate trying to parse this Administration's public statements for truths and lies, errors of omission and of commission alike:

> “Today we will issue new guidance from the C.D.C. that will make it clear that any American can be tested, no restrictions, subject to doctor’s orders,” Mr. Pence told reporters at the White House.

anongoodnurse

02:23

Maybe people (employers) will have a rude surprise in the name of national health.

@tchrist I have never worried about any epidemics; this is the very first time.

@tchrist They don't know what they're talking about yet.

tchrist

Not as rude as that of the victims, alas. Could this finally be the camel-breaking straw that gives our people a first-world heath-care system for all?

anongoodnurse

(butterfly keyboard, sorry)

Yes, it might just be.

tchrist

I have nothing but contempt for the insurance industry here. Those jobs need to be lost.

anongoodnurse

I do think, though, that frequent (very) hand washing and leaving one's face alone will help more than masks. And staying home/working from home as much as possible.

tchrist

Of course it will. Just wearing a bloody bandana around your mouth and nose will stop you from touching yourself.

anongoodnurse

02:27

That's just it. It's like blinking. We touch our faces all the time without even knowing it.

tchrist

All of us great apes do so, but not other creatures. We don't know why.

anongoodnurse

If that alone stopped, it would spare a great number of cases.

tchrist

I was watching people in a remote meeting today, and boy is it common.

anongoodnurse

Anyway, I wondered if you were worried, as you were with Ebola. I just wanted to reassure you that if you were, you had reason.

That's the only benefit to a facemask.

tchrist

I am much more worried than before.

anongoodnurse

02:29

If people wore glasses and a face mask, it might cut down... but the mask won't prevent droplets.

tchrist

Stay away from people.

anongoodnurse

@tchrist Well, please take care. It's already in a state contiguous to yours.

@tchrist Yes. The benefit of a broken leg. ;)

tchrist

I know it's coming. I don't think I'll be flying to Pennsylvania this summer, or even Wisconsin.

anongoodnurse

My friend just put off his visit to Florence. So sad, but necessary.

Take care.

tchrist

We'll hit Wuhan scenarios in many, many locales long before the American general election in November. I cannot possibly imagine what happens then.

tchrist

03:03

@anongoodnurse In two such states, with one case in Utah and two in Arizona.

Although it would be hard to talk about the length of the shared border between Colorado and Arizona. I just know it's the same as the one between Utah and New Mexico. :)

Read: a dimensionless point.

Oh gee, three states. Nebraska has 13 cases.

washes hands again

And Texas with 11 repatriated cases is just a half-hour drive from Colorado (60 miles), although not the part where those folks are being housed.

tchrist

03:49

Various viral taxa, each ranked lower than the one before it: Riboviria, Negarnaviricota, Polyploviricotina, Chunqiuviricetes, Articulavirales, Cornidovirineae, Coronaviridae, Orthocoronavirinae, Alphacoronavirus, Setracovirus, Human coronavirus NL63.

You don’t hit the -virus till you get to the genus, subgenus, and species levels.

All the other suffixes also tell you the taxonomic ranking.

So in descending order again: -viria, -viricota, -viricotina, -viricetes, -virales, -virineae, -viridae, -virinae, -virus.

How virile of them.

Cerberus

Perhaps we shall meet the terms of the Paris Agreement after all.

@tchrist Have you seen the map of pollution in China?

tchrist

@Cerberus I have.

Cerberus

OK.

The epidemic is good for the environment. That is something.

I've said it before, and I shall say it again: I think it is time to forbid all private flying.

Exceptions could be made for the most pressing cases.

Like migration and visiting family of the first degree.

tchrist

Passenger liners?

Very slow across the Atlantic. Unthinkable across the Pacific.

Cerberus

People don't need to travel this much.

I believe working from home took a flight after the Japanese nuclear meltdown, and it remained much more popular than before the incident once it was no longer necessary.

tchrist

04:02

It would take a pandemic with a much greater case fatality rate than this one.

Cerberus

Perhaps so.

But it could start with temporary measures.

tchrist

Milan isn't a go-to tourist venue these days. Neither is Beijing.

Cerberus

No, indeed.

The virus is here.

I'm hoping it will deter some tourism.

tchrist

But you can't convince businessmen they can't fly for their purposes.

Cerberus

Well.

tchrist

04:05

They're who keep the airlines afloat.

Cerberus

My boyfriend was going to attend a 'borrel' tomorrow, where around 200–500 people were supposed to attend.

But it was cancelled, partly because it was organised by the Milanese stock exchange.

He was also going to attend a convention in America which has been cancelled.

And I think some other business thing was also cancelled for him.

tchrist

In English borrel means either related to the laity or else unlearned, rude, rough.

Cerberus

In Dutch, it means a casual party with drinks.

tchrist

Many conventions are cancelling here.

Cerberus

Or a drink.

It could be before or after dinner.

@tchrist Yes, it it already has an effect.

tchrist

04:09

There are other plenty of effects going on behind the scenes which people in general don't know about yet.

Because of inability to get things from China.

Like you can't get Ingenico card readers because they're made in China, but you can get Verifone ones because there are not.

Cerberus

> Business travelers account for 12% percent of airlines' passengers, but they are typically twice as profitable.

I think tourism is a lot bigger.

tchrist

And some pharmaceuticals are becoming problematic because India can't get the raw chemicals from China to make them with, and then to pass on to the West and otherwhere.

Cerberus

Yes, medicines are the big problem.

Many are also made in China.

We have a few months' worth of stockpiles.

tchrist

They were.

Cerberus

Pharmaceutical companies do, I mean.

tchrist

04:12

The pre-holiday stocks are nearly drained now.

Cerberus

That is not what I read?

tchrist

The ones that were stockpiled specifically for their long lunar new year holidays.

Cerberus

The stocks in China, perhaps.

But they have stocks on other continents.

Or so I read.

tchrist

It's a supply shock problem, way up early in the chain.

CowperKettle

@M.A.R. No, diagram would not fit in the context

But thank you

Cerberus

04:26

I'm surprised Biden is doing so well.

tchrist

It's because Sanders and Warren have split the progressive vote.

Cerberus

I suppose so.

Even so, I thought Sanders was praedicted to do better than this?

tchrist

Plus there is a regional distaste in the South for people from New England.

@Cerberus He will. Texas and California are still out.

Cerberus

Are all the purple ones in the south?

@tchrist Hmm.

tchrist

Maine is a surprise.

For that matter, so is Massachusetts.

There won't be a nominee tonight.

That's the far right dotted line of having won a simple majority.

We'll have to wait another week, when the next 6 states go.

Feels like a lot of fiddling while Rome's ablaze to me, but it has to be done.

> Lots of chatter about a scuffle at the Biden party between anti-dairy activists and several staff members who physically prevented them from commandeering the stage.

Like that.

12% of the Californian vote seems to be going to Mayor Pete.

Biden is not doing very well there.

> Exit polls tell the story of West Coast vs. East Coast. California voters under 45: Biden 8%, Sanders 62%. Virginia voters under 45: Biden 35%, Sanders 40%.

The Associated Press has called California for Sanders. The Times has not yet.

I cannot imagine all this going on anywhere else in the world.

> Bloomberg spent $115 million on television ads in Texas and California combined. He’s on track to pick up delegates in both states, but at an exorbitant cost.

Like that. That is utterly insane. Votes are bought here.

By paying for television etc spamverts.

"at an exorbitant cost" should not be how a democracy functions.

Sanders and Biden are now exactly tied in Texas so far.

Cerberus

05:01

No, indeed.

The underlying issue is perhaps that being a politician pays off in America.

It shouldn't.

tchrist

Yes, although WHO said they think overall may be 3.4% now.

@Cerberus It's all a millionaires’ club.

Of course there is no real left here.

Cerberus

@tchrist Not even Sanders?

I think those fatalities in the lower left corner are percentage of deaths, not percentage of infected who die.

tchrist

05:20

Two of the people hospitalized in Washington are in their twenties

Matt E. Эллен

07:57

@terdon as descriptivist as I am, I hate it 😁 oh well, can't win em all

Færd

08:53

So the Dem establishment have effectively united behind Biden. That's sad news, cause he's unlikely to match up to Trump. Hillary 2.0. Or worse.

It could also be good news for Sanders, since Biden is an easier opponent to beat than the rest of the moderate field.

But I suspect the next blow to the progressive front is going to be dealt by Obama endorsing Biden at another decisive moment in the race. That could be fatal.

There's already rumors that Obama (too) was behind the recent coalescence.

And Warren not letting up and dropping out is very telling. It's possible that she belongs to the moderate camp at heart after all, and will do whatever it takes to keep the left split despite the fact that she stands little chance of winning the nomination herself.

I also wonder what effect corona can have on the election at large. The government is not handling it very well. It may impede the economy, which will be bad for everyone, and especially look bad for Trump. It may also mean no more rallies, gatherings, or knocking on doors in a few months, if not weeks. The most populist campaigns will suffer the brunt there.

TRiG

10:30

What sits in a fruit bowl and shouts for help?

Matt E. Эллен

11:05

A damson in distress?

TRiG

@MattE.Эллен Yup.

Matt E. Эллен

:D

CowperKettle

13:45

Boxes with packaged devices should be tied up with twine or glued over with paper tape, adhesive paper-based tape, or polyethylene tape with a sticky layer so that they could not be opened without violating the integrity of the package.

Is glued over okay?

I'm not sure how to express this.

Sealed with glued-on paper tape?

tchrist

@CowperKettle no

Maybe "taped up"? Hm. You can't use tape to glue anything.

Sealed?

@MattE.Эллен Any help on the taping problem?

Matt E. Эллен

14:05

Taped up sounds good

"securely taped up" perhaps

tchrist

Secured with paper tape or twine.

Secure is a nice verb.

Mitch

14:34

@TRiG Wha? What's a 'damson'?

Matt E. Эллен

like a small plum

not to be confused with "damn son!"

CowperKettle

14:54

@tchrist The Russian original says проклеена which means that glue was applied on the one side of this paper tape and after that the tape was wrapped around the box. I'll leave glued-on to retain the original meaning. Let it be awkard but close to the original.

tchrist

@CowperKettle Oh wow, I had no idea such a thing even existed!

I was thinking of cellophane tape.

Which is pre-glued, if you please.

@Mitch Don't be a prune.

You'd think glued paper tape would get stuck in the paper tape reader drive. :)

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен Oh.

@tchrist You're raisin a good point.

Matt E. Эллен

What sits in a fruit bowl crying into its hands?

tchrist

@MattE.Эллен The Buddha's fruit.

AKA a fingered citron.

@Mitch Prunus domestica is rather small, but not half so small nor half so delicious as Prunus americana. For bonus points, why is the genus feminine when it looks masculine? :)

Matt E. Эллен

makes notes

tchrist

15:10

Oh, we appear to be acerbic this morning, so I'll answer for him: because a fruit tree like a prunus is inherently feminine even if it does belong to the second declension. Spanish also distinguishes tree from fruit, but makes the tree masculine (like un naranjo for an orange tree) and the fruit feminine (una naranja). But they also have both fruto and fruta.

If naranjo is the orange tree and the naranja its fruit, can you guess what its blossom is called?

Guess something random.

Mitch

@tchrist Because it's a greek source? or it's 3rd declension?

@tchrist Mayim Bialik?

tchrist

@Mitch It’s second declension. But yes, it is a borrowing from Greek.

Mitch

And is that the reason?

I thought I was wrong because usualy those borrowings are feminine looking but masculine grammar, like el thema, or el ... somethingelsa?

el idioma

hold on we're talking Latin though and prunus anyway

so what is an orange blossom in Spanish?

I barely know what it is in English.

tchrist

@Mitch Usually -us is masculine in the second declension, but there are a few famous exceptions like domus and humus and ficus, the fig tree. You're right that Venus is a third declension feminine (whence Venereal). Latin used the neuter prunum for the fruit.

@Mitch It's azahar, which is masculine and homophonic with azar meaning "chance" as in por azar by chance, at random. It's from the Arabic zahra for blossom, because it was the Moors who brought citrus to our world. Italian also has zagara for orange blossom from the same source.

Azahar

Azahar o flor de azahar es el nombre de las flores blancas del naranjo, del limonero y del cidro.[1] El nombre procede del árabe hispánico azzahár, y este, del árabe clásico az-zahr (que significa flores). El nombre se asocia popularmente a la flor de naranjo, la más apreciada de todas por su belleza, aroma y propiedades, las cuales son tradicionalmente consideradas terapéuticas. Es ingrediente esencial en varias infusiones por sus propiedades sedantes.[2] De la flor de azahar se destila también aceite esencial, aceite de flores de naranjo o neroli. Este tipo de flor puede observarse durante…

Hm, the Portuguese claim credit for bringing us oranges.

> A laranja doce foi trazida da China para a Europa no século XVI pelos portugueses. É por isso que as laranjas doces são denominadas "portuguesas" em vários países, especialmente nos Bálcãs (por exemplo, laranja em grego é portokali e portakal em turco), em romeno é portocala e portogallo com diferentes grafias nos vários dialectos italianos.

Mitch

15:31

@tchrist like 'hazard'?

tchrist

@Mitch exactly that

Mitch

@tchrist wait so blossom and chance in arabic are cognate or just homophones?

tchrist

@Mitch No, only in Spanish.

Mitch

got it.

tchrist

> Origin: A borrowing from French. Etymon: French asard.
Etymology: < Anglo-Norman asard, Anglo-Norman and Old French, Middle French hasard, hasart, Middle French hazart (French hasard) gambling game played with dice (c1150), highest throw of dice in this game (1200), misfortune (early 13th cent.), risk, danger of an adverse outcome (14th cent.), chance, fortune (16th cent.), probably (with development of excrescent d) ultimately < colloquial Arabic al-zahr (pronounced az-zahr) < al the + zahr die (although this is not attested in the classical stage of the language), of unknown origin (see…

Mitch

15:34

ok so lemon is arabic too (the word and the thing)?

tchrist

Well gosh, hazard is also from the Arab!

Mitch

also d's are excrescent.

tchrist

@Mitch Maybe. Or Persian.

> Etymology: < French limon (now restricted to the lime; formerly of wider application) = Spanish limon , Portuguese limão , Italian limone , medieval Latin limōn-em , related to French lime : see lime n.2 The words are probably of Oriental origin: compare Arabic laimūn, Persian līmūn, Arabic līmah, collective līm, fruits of the citron kind, Sanskrit nimbū the lime.(

Mitch

ok but probably not from the Islamic invasion of Spain.

tchrist

Don't try to talk to Romance speakers about lemons vs limes unless they're long-time U.S. residents. You'll just confuse each other.

@Mitch No, it probably was.

> Del ár. hisp. la[y]mún, este del ár. laymūn, este del persa limu, y este del sánscr. nimbū.

That the limón etymon per the DRAE.

Mitch

15:37

hm

how about pamplemousse or whatever grapefruit is in Spanish?

tchrist

Water grape fruit?

What are grape fruits?

:)

@Mitch Son pomelos.

Well, in Spain. Sometimes toronjas in the New World.

Mitch

You realize we're gonna do all fruits, and we're just starting with citrus.

@tchrist 'whatever'. stupid fingers.

tchrist

Spanish pomelo is what's left when they've finished chewing up the Dutch import pompelmous.

Toronja though is from Hispanic Arabic in immediate origin. It's also slang for a big schnozz.

> Del ár. hisp. turúnǧa, este del ár. clás. turunǧah, este del persa toranǧ, y este del sánscr. mātuluṅga.

tchrist

16:18

> The man was hospitalized in Manhattan in serious condition while his family were quarantined in their home in New Rochelle.

No day goes by that I don't see notional agreement in published American English. I hate that people pretend it doesn't happen.

NB: "his family were quarantined".

SmokeDetector

17:50

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive body detected, potentially bad keyword in body, toxic body detected (105): Can you make marginalize pariah bigotry into a sentence? by Mystery Gamer on english.SE

KannE

19:31

I've never heard of any of the users I'm ranked with (on the same page with). I thought I was so popular... It's like high school all over again.

RegDwigнt

20:04

@Robusto nobody fucks with the Jesus.

But I'll let you in on a secret. You don't have to write songs for others. You can write songs for yourself.

You can write three songs right now and never even tell me. Try it, it works.

@tchrist the rest of the world is with you on that.

tchrist

20:19

@RegDwigнt Same with how not having paid sick leave will here alone cause the virus to spread far worse.

Cerberus

Bloomberg got nowhere, did he?

@tchrist Hmm. Even so, it isn't spreading more rapidly there than here.

We're more dan doubling every day.

tchrist

@Cerberus He lined the pockets of the TV networks.

@Cerberus Not true. Far too early to discern that.

Cerberus

Yeah, that is corruption, should go to prison.

Mitch

@RegDwigнt Done.

Cerberus

Dixi.

Mitch

20:22

goddammit I told you

@Cerberus He made a lot of media broadcasting companies very happy. Probably saved the company in some small towns.

Cerberus

But he didn't get very far in the elections, did he?

tchrist

Correct.

We Are Ignoring One Obvious Way to Fight the Coronavirus: Paid sick leave could slow the spread of the disease and its impact on the economy.

Cerberus

@tchrist This could be read differently depending on the interpreted scope of not.

Or the scope of so, if you will.

Mitch

But as every one says, all that money could have been spent on
1) curing some disease
2) food for a number of small countries for a hundred years
3) helping pay for -a lot- of advertising for a lot other politicians that he likes
4) establishing a moon colony
5) buying me lunch... forever.

@tchrist or surveillance drones and de facto martial law like how china has done it

tchrist

@Mitch Ask me again in a ~~month~~ week.

> The current system is practically devised to spread infectious disease. Among the people least likely to have paid sick days, and therefore most likely to work through illness, are low-wage service workers like restaurant employees and home health care aides. (Those workers also are less likely to have health insurance, which compounds the problem.)

Cerberus

20:28

Do we know all that China did, exactly?

Mitch

Since we're talking politics, I have a very important question. Are there any other famous novels (maybe movies too) that have titles like:

The Way We Live Now
Goodbye to All That
The Shape of Things to Come
Things Fall Apart
Brave New World
Look Back In Anger
Look Homeward Angel
You Can't Go Home Again

tchrist

@anongoodnurse The New York Times editorial board has posted about the issue of unpaid sick leave and lack of health insurance being "practically devised to spread infectious disease".

@Mitch Decameron.

Mitch

@tchrist That's not ... tendentious enough.

Like I thought One Hundred Years of Solitude is -almost- there, but it's too flowery.

some kind of ... it's not self reference. maybe cheekiness?

tchrist

> Roughly one-quarter of workers in the private sector — about 32 million people — are not entitled to any paid sick days. Absent legislation, they face a choice between endangering the health of co-workers and customers and calling in sick and losing their wages and perhaps also their jobs.

We're going to kill people.

And I do mean that in most literal and brutal of fashions. It's not hyperbole.

Mitch

@tchrist In the sense that poor organizational structure will lead to people's deaths.

as opposed to 'we're walking out with machetes and shovels and bashing people's brains in'

tchrist

20:33

@Mitch Correct.

Don't worry, all the millionaire-legislators have no such family members to worry about.

Mitch

because head bashing just leads to more aerosolized viral contaminants into the nearby air.

I'm just advising head bashers to wear masks is all.

@tchrist They are pretty old though/

tchrist

> A 2013 study of workers in Allegheny County, Pa., estimated that allowing them to take up to two paid “flu days” would have reduced workplace transmission of the flu by roughly 39 percent.

@Mitch Sick transit gloria camarae.

Mitch

It was my impression that even older people have a much better chance of surviving if they're heavily palliated until their immune systems fix it.

But I guess that's another difficulty not enough ICUs

tchrist

We have only 8% of the ventilators we'll need.

So who picks who gets those and lives versus who doesn't and dies?

Not that it's so clear cut, but there will be a lot of that.

Triage will pick people to die. It always does.

Mitch

OK let's follow 'Decameron'. What are some other titles like it?

I mean... 'The Canterbury Tales' is basically the same work, but the title is boring.

tchrist

20:38

@Mitch bookriot.com/2018/08/09/books-about-the-plague

Mitch

I want clever titles.

@tchrist Books about the plague?

La Peste!

or rather 'La Peste' !

isn't there a plague in the canterbury tales?

There's a plague story where Newton figures out gravity on his retreat from London in 1665 or so.

"This book needs no title"
1) has no plague
2) is clever
3) but outright recursion seems like cheating

Cerberus

@tchrist We'll order more from China, and...oh.

So how is this volume calculated?

@tchrist Of course I agree with you.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer (87): Words that mean ''to inadvertently say something'' by asdasd on english.SE

Mitch

"How To Win Friends and Influence People"
"How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying"

funny but no.

@Cerberus Any ancient texts with ... clever titles?

'The Aeneid' is definitely not it.

'De Architectura' is definitely not it.

Who was that guy...?

Cerberus

The Golden Ass

The Metamorphoses of Apuleius, which Augustine of Hippo referred to as The Golden Ass (Asinus aureus), is the only ancient Roman novel in Latin to survive in its entirety.The protagonist of the novel is called Lucius. At the end of the novel, he is revealed to be from Madaurus, the hometown of Apuleius himself. The plot revolves around the protagonist's curiosity (curiositas) and insatiable desire to see and practice magic. While trying to perform a spell to transform into a bird, he is accidentally transformed into an ass. This leads to a long journey, literal and metaphorical, filled with inset...

Mitch

20:46

It's funny in English

because ass

is that the one with... illa cena Trimalchio?

But that's a good story. not sure about the title.

Oooh.. 'Eating People Is Wrong'...

that's a good title. Doesn't seem to fit in my example set though.

ah... Trimalchio's dinner is in the Satyricon.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes!

Err, no.

I always confuse those, too!

Apocolocyntosis

The Apocolocyntosis (divi) Claudii, literally The Gourdification of (the Divine) Claudius, is a political satire on the Roman emperor Claudius, probably written by Seneca the Younger. It is one of only two examples of Menippean satire from the classical era that have survived, the other being Petronius' Satyricon. The title plays upon "apotheosis", the process by which dead Roman emperors were recognized as gods. == Authorship == "Apocolocyntosis" is Latinized Greek, and sometimes transliterated Apokolokyntosis. In the manuscripts the anonymous work bears the title Ludus de morte Divi Claudii...

Mitch

@Cerberus I think what's his face, the author of "I, Claudius", adds that as an appendix to ... "I, Claudius".

But "I, Claudius" is nearing that inchoate idea of that selection of titles.

But that's another item to put on my 'to read in the original Latin' list.

Those come after 'learn latin' though.

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