English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

barlop

00:00

@Mitch Well, like some people say "fertile ash" because ash causes or promotes fertility - the growing of vegetation, because it contanis nutrients and when the ash is mixed with soil it helps enable the soil to produce vegetation. However, by the same token, one could refer to "fertile water", but nobody does.

(I personally would not use the term 'fertiile ash' because we don't for example speak of fertile water.. But some do use the term 'fertile ash')

so 'fertile water' would be an example that matches but that nobody uses

Cerberus

@barlop Yes, especially when the words have an idiomatic phrase to compete with.

> This friend of me lives in London.

> I'd like some deep-fried, oblong pieces of potato, please.

Etc.

Mitch

@barlop 'Fertile ash'? That's a new one on me. Both phrases sound strange.

Are you talking about phrases or about individual words? They feel different to me (as far as meaning goes). A phrase has extra stuff going on, like the idiomatic meaning vs literal, whether it is a set phrase or not, maybe other things.

barlop

03:06

@Cerberus phrase.. but note that I can think of unusual phrases that are a bit humorous like your deep fried oblong pieces of potato example , or somebody referring to their grandmother as the antic, but the logic is still clear.. Whereas the phrase "fertile water" kind of exposes the absurdness of "fertile ash" though people say the latter.. And it's not idiomatic..(so it's not like the english idiom 'kick the bucket' for dying), It is in line with a definition of fertile!

@Mitch well, fertile ash has the word fertile in a weird sense, but combined with the word ash. So I guess you could say it's a word(fertile) that i'm referring to, or a phrase (fertile ash). The weird definition is with fertile. And my point is you can equally say "fertile water", but nobody does. (though a google will show that people do say 'fertile ash'). My example is not idiomatic

Mitch

@barlop Do you have another example? Both sound just as weird to me, having heard neither (though a google search shows use of 'fertile ash').

Also, what was the motivation for this question (how did you get this question in your head)? Was it thinking about the term 'fertile ash'?

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barlop

03:31

@Mitch yes, the term grated (both on my ears, and on my rational mind)

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07:03

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07:54

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tchrist

13:32

Any ideas on how I can do a better job explaining to this fellow how what he wrote doesn't sound quite right?

0

A: Is it grammatically correct to say "..., something I will have come to learn later in the course."?

This is just the future perfect construction, but how you are trying to use it does not make sense here. From Wikipedia: In English, the future perfect construction consists of a future construction such as the auxiliary verb will (or shall) or the going-to future and ...

Mitch

15:17

@tchrist I think his sentence is fine. There are multiple ways of saying the same thing. His is one, emphasizing the 'later' as a future point in time looking backwards to a completed event. That's all. Seeing the other suggestions makes me think that the future perfect may be a little too 'fancy'.

In other news, people please try to stop making 'hygge' a thing. It's not a thing.

The word 'hygge' does not put me in a state of hygge.

Or however you are supposed to say it

'Hygge' is so not fetch.

Mitch

15:34

Huggies are totally fetch. You know, because no leakage.

user14492

15:56

hiya

i'm looking for a word here: "if you have any concerns, please let me know. i would be happy to remove the concerns@

allay your concenrs!!

got it. thanks

RegDwigнt

19:01

@user14492 dispel is the idiomatic choice here, I believe.

Nobody really says allay. Like, ever.

The most common is address, of course, but that's not quite the meaning you're after.

COCA also has alleviate and assuage.

Less common are resolve and accomodate.

But yeah, you have quite a selection to pick from, actually.

@barlop I believe that is exactly the issue here. That ash contains nutrients. It has been used as fertilizer for tens of thousands of years. But water is not a fertilizer. It's just water. To make it fertile, you have to add stuff to it. Like ash, say.

We don't say "fertile water" for the same reason we don't say "fertile air" or "fertile sunshine". Even though a plant is just water plus air plus sunshine. You don't need a fertilizer, you don't even need soil.

You need six CO₂ and six H₂O, is all you need.

And so water and air are your absolute baseline. It goes without saying that there just is no fertility without either. And thus we don't say it.

But anyway, that is all justification in hindsight. At the end of the day, the only reason we don't say X is because we don't say it. We could start saying it today, or at some point in the future. Or maybe we did in the past. There is no real reason for something to be or not be idiomatic.

We actually do acknowledge water and air and sunshine, but we use more poetic language for that. Metaphors. Like literally, we use the word source for everything. That's how much homage we pay to water on a daily basis.

user14492

19:36

@RegDwigнt you guys are good at coming up with words. That’s definitely better imo but I couldn’t even think of it even though I know the word. Damn 🧠

Mitch

19:53

@RegDwigнt You 'allay your fears' though. Those go together often.

RegDwigнt

Yeah dispel is more common with worries, I would say.

Every stormy has its petrel.

@user14492 it's just passive vs active knowledge. You will recognize a million words on sight. But you couldn't write down a mere ten thousand right now. You'd struggle after half that many, actually.

That's normal.

And you can't fight it. My active knowledge is not better than yours. If anything it's worse. In fact I'd say it's definitely worse now. Because that's the one thing (and the only thing) I learned at the university. It doesn't matter what you know. You don't need to know anything at all. All you need to know is where to look it up.

And so I don't remember allay or alleviate and assuage, either. Or sausage, for that matter. I just remember Google, Wikipedia, and COCA. That is all I keep in my brain. The rest of it I devote to video games.

So yeah. Make a mental note of COCA, and the OneLook Reverse Dictionary. You'll find these very helpful.

@Mitch also, maybe I should start allaying my fears, because frankly that's the first time in my life I see this collocation. It makes perfect sense and might be perfectly common, but it's perfectly not anywhere common enough to have reached me even once in forty years.

The ones I see all the time are more like "donald trump" and "you tube". These register with me alright.

0

Q: Is it correct to use "because of"'?

I read the motivational phrase " You are a precious and important person, only BECAUSE OF BEING YOURSELF", I want to know if it is written correctly of if it were better to say "You are a precious and important person, only FOR BEING YOURSELF"?? Thank you so much for helping me out.

Mitch

20:10

Let me allay your fears, I will not assail to assuage your sausage.

RegDwigнt

That is the worst motivational phrase ever.

Such a patent lie it's not even funny.

"You are a useless and unimportant person, simply by virtue of existing."

That sounds more like it.

There are 8 billion people out there and literally not a single one of them is you. That is how little people want to be you. That is how rubbish you are.

Mitch

'You are the best person at being you' because it's by default.

Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation #OscarWilde

Tweeted by ByOscarWilde on August 4, 2018 at 6:00 AM

Everyone thinks they are unique.

RegDwigнt

Oscar be funneh again, eh. He and his litotes. Using "most" to mean "all but one".

Mitch

He was the most unique person ever.

Jasper

Oh yeah @Mitch I deleted my channel again because nobody watches it anyway.

RegDwigнt

20:15

If you were precious, you wouldn't need to open the Internet and read the phrase "you are precious", not even directed at you, in order to know that you are precious.

Mitch

@Jasper 1) I don't think that's how it works.

RegDwigнt

Yeah. That is not how it works.

Mitch

2) I went there to watch them.

RegDwigнt

Yeah. I went there to watch them.

Jasper

@Mitch For every 10 views I get, 9 are from myself, lol.

RegDwigнt

20:16

Well. Now you will be getting 0. From everyone including yourself.

Not sure how that's an improvement.

But you're the math person here, you tell me.

Mitch

@RegDwigнt People feel bad about themselves because they only notice the bright happy people being funny and happy, and compare that to their inner boring colorless thoughts.

RegDwigнt

Go read that awesome motivational phrase above. It doesn't say, "you're a precious person simply by not existing".

Jasper

Anyway it's good that I can watch the UK parliament talk these few days in full. They have the 9 hour videos on youtube now.

Mitch

If only they could see the inside of other people, they'd be effing surgeons, amirite?!!!!

RegDwigнt

@Jasper See, you wouldn't be able to do that if they deleted their channel.

Mitch

20:17

@Jasper I know! And they talk funny like Benny Hill.

Jasper

I just watched the vote on the Brexit deal and the vote on the no confidence in the government.

Mitch

I feel bad for the UK.

I say that as a USian.

RegDwigнt

@Mitch but that's easy to fix. Just create an Instagram account and pretend to be bright and happy yourself. And let others whine how they are boring in comparison.

Mitch

That should really sting @MattE.Эллен

RegDwigнt

Post a picture of what you eat. Every day. Bam. You're bright and happy. Everyone else is an idiot prick. You get 1 million followers. All of them miserable and colorless. Profit.

Jasper

20:19

@RegDwigнt Have you found that girl with the earrings? Anyway, I didn't know you had divorced until I read that post. I hope you find a new Maria soon.

Mitch

@RegDwigнt I will take pictures of these other happy people, post them to my Instagram feed, plus some plates of crumbs after eating avocado toast.

RegDwigнt

@Jasper see, you wouldn't be able to read that if I deleted my Instagram account.

And yes I found the girl that very day.

Mitch

@RegDwigнt I'm not reading this right now.

Everyone knows I don't read anything anybody else says.

It makes me depressed reading other people happy crap.

Jasper

@RegDwigнt Anyway, I still have no Maria, LOL, but that is OK.

Mitch

so I just don't

I make up my own happy crap.

In order to make other people more miserable than me.

So I win the happiness race.

Jasper

20:21

@Mitch I think the US government shutdown is worse. I feel bad for you.

Mitch

Here: "I think I will have a chocolate croissant"

BRB

RegDwigнt

@Jasper Maria could find your channel if you had one. Maria won't find what's not there.

Jasper

@RegDwigнt I see. Thanks for reminding me. I have an idea. Maybe one day when my voice is good, I will record 20 songs and upload them all on the same day.

Mitch

Holy Effing Eff, that chocolate croissant smells effing great!

un momentito

RegDwigнt

If you upload them all on one day, YouTube will bury you under a barrage of pricks the very next day.

You need to keep them trickling.

And it's not just YouTube. It's people. Out of sight, out of mind. So don't be out of sight. Keep getting in sight.

That is why spam works.

If you write to a million people a million emails every day, you'll make some new friends.

Mitch

20:26

RegDwigнt

If you don't write to anyone ever, you might as well not exist.

Mitch

om nom effing nom

Jasper

My favourite moment when I watch UK parliament is when the speaker says 'Order!', LOL.

RegDwigнt

What did the speaker order?

A croissant?

Because Mitch needs a croissant right now. What he's got is not a fucking croissant.

It's a pain au chocolat.

That is so not the same thing.

Jasper

I think every chat room should have a speaker.

RegDwigнt

20:27

Order!

Mitch

@RegDwigнt You're so obviously envious.

So it's working

RegDwigнt

@Mitch not at all mate. I'm eating a delicious soup right now.

Mitch

@RegDwigнt goddamit

it's probably good too

RegDwigнt

That was ready to be served the very second you posted that you'd have a croissant which isn't even a croissant.

@Mitch all my soups are awesome.

I cook like four, maybe five. Quality over quantity.

Mitch

probably has cabbage though

RegDwigнt

20:28

Nope.

Jasper

It seems to me though that the UK parliament is pretty crammed up in that House of Commons. I think they need a bigger room, more sitting space.

Mitch

heaven is having a bowl of cabbage soup

RegDwigнt

They just need to fucking brexit out of that stinking room already.

Mitch

hell is having a bowl of cabbage soup every day forever

RegDwigнt

Always takes them ages to brexit out of anything.

Idiots.

Jasper

20:30

And the House of Commons has green seats, and the House of Lords has red seats, like the green and red traffic lights, amazing.

Of course, if I designed the rooms, every seat will just be blue.

RegDwigнt

@Mitch in my capacity as someone that cooks the best cabbage soup in this town, I need to point out that you are entirely 100% correct.

Mitch

If I designed the rooms, it'd be a bouncy castle

RegDwigнt

If I designed the rooms, there'd be no fucking politicians in them. Or non-fucking politicians. Basically no politicians at all.

Mitch

@RegDwigнt I have the best memories of having cabbage soup once

RegDwigнt

Using only just one politician will ruin any room. Any room. Also any soup at all.

Mitch

20:32

wait.. no.. bigoš?

whatever tat polish cabbage stew thingy is.

cabbage roulade is awful though

Jasper

Soup is not common in my diet. I take soup usually only less than 5 times a year.

RegDwigнt

The one I cook is borshch. The best in town. The best in all of Germany, frankly.

Mitch

Are you in the eastern part or western? They still have Russian things in eastern towns

RegDwigнt

I had people over from all the way from Hamburg down to Munich, and they keep returning just to get seconds.

Jasper

The German girl in Bourne movies, that character, Marie Kreutz, some CIA guy pronounced her name wrongly, LOL.

RegDwigнt

20:34

@Mitch people from Leipzig keep coming as well. They have nothing in Leipzig. Certainly no soup. Just fucking statues of fucking Bach, is all they have.

Mitch

@Jasper The CIA has one of the best language systems in the world.

The actors who play CIA characters, not really.

Jasper

I haven't watched a Matt Damon movie for years, time to watch some.

RegDwigнt

@Jasper if you find that a LOL, never look at Jason Bourne's passport in that movie.

Mitch

@RegDwigнt Sculptures about musicians is like dancing about architecture

@RegDwigнt haha I know! That picture of him looks like he's 12 years old!

RegDwigнt

Basically they switched the keyboard layout to Cyrillic, but then just typed on it "Jason Bourne" as if it were still in English. It's a common meme.

Mitch

20:36

not that there's anything wrong with being 12 years old.

Jasper

@RegDwigнt Interesting observation.

RegDwigнt

Jasper

That looks 18, not 12.

His first movie, Mystic Pizza, with Julia Roberts, when he was 18.

Mitch

@RegDwigнt И до тхат аль тхе time

RegDwigнt

It says "Ащьф" for "foma". Literally "Aschtsch'f",

because those are the letters on the Russian keyboard where the letters for "foma" would be on the English keyboard.

Mitch

20:38

@Jasper OK. How about 12?

Jasper

Anyway, I hope they get me to play the next James Bond.

@Mitch 12 is also possible, true.

RegDwigнt

You need to upload a demo reading of some lines from Goldfinger to your YouTube channel.

Oops, silly me, you don't have a YouTube channel.

My bad.

Mitch

Ш вщ ерфе фдд еру ешьу

@Jasper I think there's a short line in front of you.

RegDwigнt

That's not an issue. James Bond would just kill them all.

Mitch

If you eliminate them, by what ever means at your disposal, you will truly be worthy of that role.

RegDwigнt

20:39

Jinx, I guess.

I also guess we've just broken a number of international laws by condoning homicide.

But that's okay, I just learned the other day that by tuning my piano to 439 Hz I was breaking the fucking Treaty of Versailles. Like, for realsies. Not even a joke or a meme. I've literally broken international law.

Mitch

Bond: Do you expect me to talk?
Goldfinger: No, Mr Bond, I expect you to die.

@RegDwigнt Don't drag me into your conspiracy. I'm just here for the chocolate croissants.

@RegDwigнt Are the enforcement authorities still not there yet?

Jasper

Anyway, my favourite news site is still theguardian.com, but recently I have been reading bbc.com as well. I read thesun.co.uk for drama.

RegDwigнt

Here is the actual Treaty of Versailles from the Library of Congress:
https://www.loc.gov/law/help/us-treaties/bevans/m-ust000002-0043.pdf
Article 282, subsection 22. Page 171.

Because I tune my violin to 443 Hz, the First World War is still not over.

It was me all along, guys.

Jasper

I studied about that treaty in history class long ago.

RegDwigнt

@Mitch the enforcement authorities are way too busy laughing at the fucking brexit.

Can't blame them, really.

Also, always a fun to have at least one World War going on at any time.

Jasper

20:47

Also, for various reasons I am not really happy with my Acer laptop, so I might get a Dell or HP instead.

One of them is that the backlit keyboard goes off after 30 seconds until one presses any key again.

They should at least have a setting that lets people leave it on all the time, because some people switch off all the lights in their room at night.

So next time you get a backlit keyboard, test it to see if it goes off after 30 seconds, lol, kthxbai.

RegDwigнt

I'm just checking the Treaty of Versailles on whether I'm allowed a keyboard at all.

Doesn't look good. So far there's zero mentions of either "keyboard" or "backlit".

Mitch

> (22) Convention of November 16 and 19, 1885, regarding the establishment of a concert pitch.

That's pretty ineffectual. Simply regards?

I didn't think a chiropractor would improve my posture. But I stand corrected.

Tweeted by DadsPuns on January 16, 2019 at 3:08 PM

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22:16

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…