English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Feeds

01:36

0

In this clip of movie Age of Ultron - at 12 second mark Tony stark pushes the Image from his handheld device out to a hologram. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS-tGAJeUSg Is there a specific name for that gesture of hand movement ? Thanks in advance.

single-word-requests

SmokeDetector

02:23

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, toxic answer detected (170): Why not "skydove"? by ur mom on english.SE

KannE

03:30

I just want you all to know that I have turned RED-COAT!--an American, original colonies colloquialism meaning...well, never mind. But, the fact of the matter--I attacked an American citizen! That is, just corrected him/her for making a blanket assertion (re: commas, periods, and quotation marks). But, what thanks do I get? None! Because the American OP accepted that wrong answer--Lickety-Split!--while I was still typing mine...so I just gave up and let them have it. Americans! Geez...

Will Hunting

03:58

@KannE I figured out why others may see your profile picture correctly when I cannot. It is because of my special browser settings, but currently I am not sure which setting is involved.

@KannE Can I know which assertion this is about commas, periods and quotation marks?

KannE

@WillHunting Some American said they ALWAYS go inside the marks. So I stood up for the British style punctuation system! And I was shot down...Bermpt bur burr, Bermpt burr burrr...I have no idea how to spell that.

Feeds

04:59

0

Q: How to express a self-diminishing recursive property. Elegantly

In the following, I can't find the right way to express my meaning for the part in bold: Studies show that high IQ individuals are more susceptible to drug addiction than the general population, meaning there is a cognition-dependent aspect to substance abuse. While mainstream drug treatment ...

single-word-requests phrase-requests

Will Hunting

05:22

@KannE That is what all the American style guides prescribe, but in practice anything goes.

Færd

06:10

Tongue-twister of the morning: part, pint, point, port.

Repeat 10 times.

I just looked up pt. I don't think there's any other meaningful connection between them.

SmokeDetector

10:04

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, pattern-matching email in answer (260): What is the origin of "ex"? by Abdul Ahmend on english.SE

KannE

10:39

@MetaEd Can you flag a comment because it's based on someone's inability to read a chart? It's tiresome...

Feeds

0

Q: Troubles with /yr as "per year"

I am Italian, sorry for the errors. My professor asked me to prepare a keynote about some surgery procedures and I have to indicate some data like "2000 procedures per year". I used "2000 procedures/yr" and he said it was not right. Can you help me? How should I write? Thank you

single-word-requests abbreviations

KannE

@WillHunting I go with the APA style personally, BUT I stood up for the British style for what? People can't even read. I give up. It's like herding cats.

Will Hunting

@KannE I see. I like Chicago Manual of Style for American and New Hart's Rules for British. There is also a very detailed coverage of punctuation matters in the former.

SmokeDetector

11:17

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Url in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, +2 more (687): Grab Now@> www.ebizoffer.com/surge-rx-male-enhancement/ by Braydenfurry on english.SE

KannE

11:53

@WillHunting The APA says, "As you might guess from our name, APA Style uses American style punctuation (see p. 92 of the 6th ed. Publication Manual), as do several other major style guides (such as AP, Chicago, and MLA)." So, it would be interesting to see how those styles vary (re: punctuation). I assume they would somewhat, but I don't know.

SmokeDetector

12:10

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected, toxic answer detected (164): How to write previous surname when married? by ya mom on english.SE

Feeds

13:03

0

Q: Is there a word that means “measure time”?

You can measure the weight - it is called weighing. If you measure time; what is that called? Is there a single English word for this? I'm thinking especially in the context of measuring the performance of something, for example, to measure the time it takes for a computer program to complete a...

single-word-requests verbs time

Feeds

13:35

0

Q: What word conveys the opposite state of "recovery"?

If one can be in a state of "recovery" what word conveys an opposite state? I'm looking for a word that conveys that someone is in a state where they're exerting themselves through physical action. Instead of being in a state of rest—building strength and regaining energy—they're losing it thro...

single-word-requests

Gigili

14:19

@KannE What a Sisyphean task!

Mitch

@user2646 Why do you keep posting then removing that?

user 2646

i keep thinking i'm in the math room :-/

Mitch

Oh

It's a good picture

user 2646

Mitch

All proofs should come with a proof by picture

More importantly, we need a dad pun of the day. Or what is even better, some other day...

Cosmetic surgery used to be such a taboo subject. Now you can talk about Botox and nobody raises an eyebrow.

Tweeted by DadsPuns on September 5, 2018 at 10:25 AM

user 2646

14:27

what happeded to your avatar?

Mitch

I changed it

...to celebrate some space thing I'm sure

NASA birthday?

user 2646

hmmm, spacey dude

Mitch

discovery of a moon outside of our solar system?

first attainment of faster than light travel?

Also, right behind the astronaut...

you can see my house from here

user 2646

lol

Mitch

ba dum tss

user 2646

14:30

the other one was a graph, right?

Mitch

yeah, a math thing. the analytic continuation of binomial coefficients. in a rainbow

I should do another math thing.

in a rainbow

any requests?

a picture of ...

brouwer's fixed pt thm?

Euler's graph thm?

user 2646

Bill Dubuque

203k 29 188 611

elementary-number-theory abstract-algebra number-theory modular-arithmetic divisibility ring-theory polynomials

Mitch

the smallest known 5-colorable unit distance graph?

user 2646

now that^ is a rainbow

Mitch

@user2646 oh...that's ... um.. a trig function over the complex #'s?

user 2646

14:34

yup

Mitch

how about the gamma function over complexes?

user 2646

sounds ambitious

Mitch

or the combinatorial picture proof that the sum of cubes is the square of the sum of nums in sequence?

@user2646 ambitious if you color each pixel by hand. if you have mathematica you can do it in one (not very complex) line

user 2646

I wanna learn how to make geometric gifs like the one I posted?

Mitch

animated? I don't know.

at least not easily

I'm sure it can be done in d3 (in javascript) but I don't know how easily (I only know that it is possible, not how exactly it would be done)

user 2646

14:46

ok, thanks

KannE

14:56

@Gigili Thanks for the 'new' word--Sisphyean--I will use it now to describe everything in my life, ha-ha. FRT.

KannE

15:07

@MetaEd, Never mind my last message. I just realized that every style guide doesn't even agree with itself. My bad.

Cerberus

@KannE Very good! Do note that you are typoing.

Gigili

@Cerberus Do you have me on your ignore list again?

Not that I care, but I'd like to find a pattern

@KannE Don't mention it!

FRT? For Russia Toady? F#$ Russia Today? Fan of Russia Today? Founders of Russia Today

@user2646 That's cool.

How could one make a gif like that?

user 2646

15:31

still searching...

Gigili

Mathematica?

user 2646

seems like a lot of work

47 mins ago, by Mitch

I'm sure it can be done in d3 (in javascript) but I don't know how easily (I only know that it is possible, not how exactly it would be done)

Mitch

Gigili

@user2646 I did interpret that as if you're asking Mitch if he wants to learn to make one of those animated pictures, because of the question mark. So I thought you knew how to make it

Mitch

animation seems to take work

Feeds

15:40

0

Q: what word would designate the best something new and popular

As the title says, what word would designate the best something new and popular? Hope you will be able to help me.

single-word-requests

MetaEd

@KannE Comments that contain errors generally don't require a mod's attention. We more or less need to be flagged only when it turns into a long discussion or gets nasty.

Gigili

@Feeds Something new and popular? How could it be?

MetaEd

@Gigili Maybe somebody is trying to write marketing content.

It's New! It's Popular! It's the Best!

Gigili

You're just one click away

Mitch

15:58

You'll be very surprised at feature #7

Cerberus

@Gigili No why?

You didn't typo...

KannE

@Cerberus Thanks, Sisyphean, I forgot to correct my spelling after I googled it, ha-ha. It always amazes me that you can pull up the right word with such a wrong spelling.

Cerberus

It's a word whose spelling I often need to look up, too...

KannE

@MetaEd Yes, I didn't realize I was actually pinging a mod until after the fact. I thought I was just...complaining? I'm sorry. I know you have a life. Won't happen again.

MetaEd

@KannE Eh, that's the job we signed up for.

KannE

16:11

@Gigili FRT. For real though. And thanks again for Sisyphean...I will learn to spell it without looking one day. Until then, I'll just say it every day.

Mitch

@KannE votes are for what you think about facts or composition. mod flagging is for more serious meta things like this guy is being a total jerk or is answering a different question

@KannE To yourself. Out loud.

KannE

@Mitch See what happened wuz...I just wanted to complain to somebody...so I picked MetaEd...but I scrolled and couldn't find a chat msg of his to reply to...so I was like--Oh, all I have to do is type at Ed...I didn't realize I had pinged at first...it was a mis-ping. But I've done it twice now, so I've had enough practice...with pinging altogether.

KannE

16:35

@Mitch OIC, you're talking about flagging...note to self: flagging and pinging--two different things.

So, meta means something...I'm going to have to start reading...not just skimming.

@MetaEd It's THE thing!

MetaEd

It's Meta!

KannE

@MetaEd Yeah...nobody knows what that means.

MetaEd

17:02

@KannE Discussing what meta means ... that's meta.

KannE

@MetaEd The self-referential definition?

MetaEd

17:19

@KannE Meta is as meta does.

KannE

So, after an exhaustive search for a new reference...not finding any without discrepancies (a member--actually in the process of resolving that--Go, brother!)...I decided to delete my answer and--BING!--upvoted. Uh...How do you play this game!? Ha-ha, FRT! Well, it's homecoming day, gotta go; y'all have a nice weekend.

Feeds

17:45

0

Q: A word, when you make anybody fall down by your foot

I have a sentence to consider: I made him fall down by one of my feets. The sentence quoted above can be made precis if there is a specific verb that denotes making anybody fall down, as in: I _____ him. See that the verb meddle denotes interferring with someone's affairs. Simil...

single-word-requests verbs

Feeds

18:01

0

Q: Is there a word for a bad intentional lie?

At times when someone doesn't want to hang out, they usually say Person 2: Can we hangout? Person 1 :Uhmm.. I have this thing , that i have to do Person 2: "Yeah me too,Bye" In this case Person 1 doesn't really have something to do and is subtly lying to person 2, to avoid hanging out. Person...

single-word-requests

Gigili

18:52

Is there a word for an unnecessary edit made by a high rep user that is not only unnecessary but also undesirable?

Is there a single word to describe @Mitch personality?

Feeds

0

Q: Synonym for the word trusting

What is a word to describe a person who trust people very easily without question?

single-word-requests

Mitch

@Gigili Did I do that?

MetaEd

Single word answer please.

Mitch

Um...

Gigili

19:08

@Mitch english.stackexchange.com/posts/466954/revisions

MetaEd

@Mitch That's awfully familiar looking.

Mitch

@Gigili So many things to say about this very unimportant situation.

@MetaEd Oh?

@MetaEd got it: "Pfft"

Will Hunting

@Gigili I find there are very few such edits on ELU.

Gigili

I wasn't implying otherwise.

Mitch

- that question is easily closable
- I agree with your assessment of that edit
- that assessment might apply often... to... that...

No names!

You'll never get it out of me!

Gigili

19:12

@Mitch Meh.

Mitch

@MetaEd Wait... I didn't put something like that here before, have I?

MetaEd

@Mitch Your new profile image.

Will Hunting

But I still suspect that Gigili is Mitch because they always appear at the same time.

Mitch

@MetaEd Oh. well yeah.

Will Hunting

However, I understand that a moderator can neither confirm nor deny this.

Mitch

19:13

@WillHunting WOuldn't you suspect it if we were never appearing at the same time?

Will Hunting

@Mitch Yes, that is also possible.

Mitch

Holy crap, I've just logicked myself into being Gigli under any circumstance.

Gigili

I wish I was the female version of Mitch.

Mitch

@WillHunting And I can't comment on it either. And saying that is no evidence of what a possible confirmation or denial might look like if made. And that leans in no particular direction of affirmation or negation of the former or the original.

But I'm pretty sure we're not.

Not the same.

Will Hunting

I checked out the Microsoft website for the prices of Office 2019. The US version seems to sell things at a lower price than the version for my location, after applying current exchange rates. I wonder why. I guess it's really good to be American then.

Mitch

19:15

I think Gigli will be happy to hear that

Also Mitch

I mean me

Not 'Gigli'

Who is not me.

...he states.

Will Hunting

@Gigili Erm...

Mitch

@Gigili If wishes were horses, then pigs would fly.

That's just logic

@WillHunting HELL YEAH!

Sorry. That's just required by law now.

Will Hunting

Very sad to see what is happening in the Brett case.

MetaEd

As a mod I can confirm that Mitch and Gigili are or are not Mitch and Gigili.

Mitch

The Stair case, however, is being climbed successfully

Gigili

19:20

@Mitch Hahaha... that was not funny.

Mitch

@MetaEd investigates for logical flaws

Will Hunting

I have a question about Dell laptops. I read a couple of reviews about a couple of them, and they all say that the temperature is extremely high under extreme loads and the fan is always spinning, so it seems the cooling solution is not adequate. Any comments?

MetaEd

This actually looks quite a bit like a Kokopelli.

Maybe that says something about the universe.

Huh.

Mitch

@WillHunting I think you misplaced this comment intended for a forum where people actually know things.

MetaEd

It's like a bowing Kokopelli.

Will Hunting

19:21

Perhaps the authors of the reviews are a little biased against Dell, I dunno.

Mitch

@MetaEd 'Huh' is right

MetaEd

@WillHunting Close your browser tabs.

Or maybe it's a bowing I Am Groot.

Or it's Rudolph.

Mitch

@MetaEd It's been 20 years since MS had the idea of making the web browser the OS frontend. And still it's awful everywhere

Will Hunting

I also recently learnt about the difference between IPS panel and TN panel. The former allows viewing from all angles.

MetaEd

@Mitch We should go back to X.

Callbax rulez.

Will Hunting

19:24

@Mitch I think Microsoft Edge is still a bad browser. I tried to use it but it is not good. It's about the same as Internet Explorer.

Gigili

Today I learned that if you are on fire, STOP, DROP, and ROLL!

MetaEd

@Gigili If you're on ice, I don't recommend it.

If you're on steroids, STOP, DROP, and GIVE ME TWENTY!

Will Hunting

If you are on fire, you should start writing more mathematical papers.

Mitch

@MetaEd Is this what you mean:

MetaEd

@Mitch Exactly. No I mean my new avatar.

Mitch

19:26

@WillHunting If you are en vogue, you should start sashaying down the runway

...or hoist anchor

Will Hunting

I still think Firefox is the best browser. I don't like to use the incognito mode in Chrome or the private mode in Opera. Firefox allows you to use this mode easily and automatically.

Mitch

@MetaEd Oh. haha. that would necessitate reloading this tab.

MetaEd

Really, we subscribe to the Portuguese SE?

Mitch

Normally I would acquiesce, but it's more fun being difficult

Will Hunting

@MetaEd I think tchrist added it to the feeds.

There is only like one question per day.

Mitch

19:28

@WillHunting I've checked 'do not listen to all feeds'. My life has been marginally better for it.

MetaEd

That's very low volume. Never noticed it.

Mitch

I do wish for Google reader again though.

THat's what I want Twitter to be, but it is not.

Færd

@Mitch Congrats on the changing avatars.

MetaEd

@Mitch xrn not good enough for you.

Færd

You got rid of the old TV at last.

Will Hunting

19:29

I also learnt that the youtube analytics is completely broken. The numbers shown are very wrong, so I don't refer to them anymore.

Mitch

@Færd No congratulations necessary. It's all self-actuated anyway.

It's like buying an orange at the grocery store. No need to congratulate that. Anybody can do it.

Færd

I'm congratulatign the actualized self, not the actuator self.

Mitch

Now if someone were to give you an orange... well congratulations! You now have an orange!

@Færd Oh.

In that case, thanks.

Færd

Haha yeah, you're welcome.

Mitch

@MetaEd I liked lynx

Will Hunting

19:30

I think I am going to read more of theatlantic.com. The articles are very, very well written.

Mitch

What was the threaded news reader? trn? tnr would make sense but that doesn't look right.

Will Hunting

I think it will help to improve my own writing skills.

Gigili

@Mitch Well, that deserves a congratulation here, because not everybody can afford it.

Mitch

@WillHunting Just so you know, most of the information in there is made up.

I'm sort of not kidding.

Færd

Where in the Atlantic is it based?

Mitch

19:32

It is well-written, but everything has multiple agendas in there, explicit and hidden

Will Hunting

@Færd I think it is probably based in the US. Most articles are about the US as well.

Mitch

@Færd It used to be Boston, but I think they moved their offices down south. Maybe DC?

Færd

OK. What's the theme?

Mitch

@WillHunting Oh yeah. It is well written. Not too fancy, but not stupid either.

Færd

scrolls down the page

Will Hunting

19:34

@Færd Well, there's lots of politics and global issues of importance. I think anyone in the world can read it profitably.

Mitch

@Færd it's left leaning, intellectual articles on things of current interest.

Færd

OK. American left? Or left left?

Mitch

It's on a par with the New Yorker, but it has a wider diversity of article lengths, many a lot shorter.

Færd

'Cause the first one is more commonly known as liberal in my circles.

Mitch

@Færd haha. American left

Færd

19:35

OK thanks.

Mitch

@Færd and what is the 'left left' known as?

Færd

It could vaguely be translated as progressivism in US politics, I guess.

Will Hunting

I read theguardian.com as well, but it has many typos and the titles are often clickbait.

That one is based in the UK.

MetaEd

@Mitch I still like lynx.

Færd

Yeah typos in serious webpages are such off-putters.

Mitch

19:37

@Færd the term 'progressivism' is being used in a new way lately.

Færd

Probably.

Mitch

or rather applied to a wider range of people

Will Hunting

I am going to try out the LyX editor for LaTeX later...

MetaEd

@Færd Yeah, and webs in serious typedowns are such page-turners, too.

Mitch

in order to get away from labels that are currently used

@MetaEd best thing? no images

Færd

19:38

@MetaEd Haha sorry I just edited the message.

Will Hunting

I think the words left, right, liberal, conservative don't mean anything.

I would prefer to discuss what is right, wrong, good, bad instead.

Mitch

@Færd I'm not sure I understand the distinction of the labels as you use it

Færd

@Mitch Yeah terms are always revised in the march of time.

Will Hunting

Instead of being divided along party lines, politics should be focused on improving the lives of people.

Mitch

@WillHunting I vaguely remember using that. what is special about that? Is it on the fly compiling all the time? (or whatever the term for that is)

Færd

19:40

@Mitch Well, some people think of Dems as the left. Which compared to what the left means in, for instance, Germany, is kinda center.

Will Hunting

@Mitch I think it is very GUI, like Word.

MetaEd

Mitch

@WillHunting hm. but the constellation of choices one makes often are reasonably clustered into those categories of left, right, liberal conservative, etc

@WillHunting THat's a liberal, leftist way of thinking.

Gigili

@WillHunting What do you mean? Are they misleading or what?

Will Hunting

@Mitch That's why I am left handed.

Mitch

19:41

or rather my saying that is a liberal leftist way of thinking

Will Hunting

@Gigili Yes. For example, some numbers given are outright wrong. I know for sure because of my own channel.

Færd

But liberal is being used derogatorily among the left these days.

MetaEd

> Conservatism at its heart is the champion of the accumulated wisdom of many generations, protecting it from the new wisdom of the current generation or of individuals. At its best, it preserves our institutions from ill considered changes. At its worst, it interferes with wise innovations and preserves evil in the form of social institutions such as American slavery.

Gigili

@WillHunting Aren't people paid based on those numbers?

MetaEd

> Liberalism at its heart is the champion of personal liberty, protecting it from fascism, whether despotic or the tyranny of the majority. At its best, it rights past wrongs and comes to the aid of the defenseless. At its worst, it acts without foresight and creates evil in the form of unintended consequences of social reforms such as rent control.

Mitch

19:43

@Færd in the US, 'progressivism' is a word that those to the left (democrats, liberals) are starting to use (instead of 'democrat', 'liberal') for classic 'democrat' and 'liberal' ideas.

MetaEd

So there ya go. Conservatism preserves good and evil, liberalism creates good and evil.

Mitch

@MetaEd rent control is evil?

Will Hunting

@MetaEd This is a brilliant observation that deserves 100 stars.

Færd

@Mitch Yeah. As, in the passage of time, the democrats leaned more and more towards the right.

MetaEd

Rent control is evil, yes.

Mitch

19:45

@Færd all the labels have been used derogatorily forever

Gigili

Star me. I am the only thing left unstarred.

Færd

I kinda like Assata Shakur's account of liberalism more.

I don't usually proclaim my ideas as stridently as she does, but still.

MetaEd

@Mitch Price controls create scarcity. Rent controls create homelessness, water controls create water shortages, gas controls create gas shortages, etc.

Mitch

@Færd You seem to be a better student of political thinking and trends than me, but I don't think the US democrats moved to the right, they were always a bit to the right of their ostensible European counterparts that used similar labels.

Færd

@Mitch Among whom tho.

@Mitch Yeah, maybe. But I guess compared to themselves, they moved to the right on some issues (especially the distribution of wealth among citizens) and to the left on some others (eg who counts as a real citizen).

Mitch

19:49

@MetaEd That seems a controversial statement. One that I've never heard before, and one that seems extreme. Also counter to intuition. I'd think 'Hell yeah rent control, keep my monthly payments down when I get old!'. I could not say the same thing about slavery (while it also keeps your rent down when you get old)

Færd

BTW, I cannot think of myself as a student of politics. I'm such a newbie in human society, in some ways.

@Gigili You weren't. But now I am.

Feeds

0

Q: Adjective to describe do it because you want to not because you have to

I’m looking for an adjective to describe a oerson who does things because they want to do them not because they have to or because it was imposed to them, like.. if your are going to coach someone do it because you mean it not becaue it is part of your job.

single-word-requests

Mitch

@MetaEd It's a city planning strategy that still seems to be an option. I don't think it is universally despised as you seem to be stating.

MetaEd

@Mitch It's an economics thing. Price controls are well-meaning and often sound good to the consumer but kind of ruin the market for the consumer over time.

@Mitch Oh, it's not universally despised. It's often embraced enthusiastically by people who don't understand the consequences.

Mitch

I don't doubt that it has bad unintended consequences, and is certainly anti-free market (and there are lots of benefits to renters in a free market for housing)

but I don't think I've ever heard of rent control as a generally-considered bad thing

(surely the land lords don't like it, but aren't they evil?)

MetaEd

19:52

@Mitch It's universally despised by economists, who know what those consequences look like.

Færd

@MetaEd That's 'liberal' thinking.

Mitch

@MetaEd It does seem like a weird tool to use

MetaEd

> In a 1992 stratified, random survey of 464 US economists, economics graduate students, and members of the American Economic Association, 93% "generally agreed" or "agreed with provisos" that "A ceiling on rents reduces the quantity and quality of housing available." (Wikipedia)

Færd

So there's a lot of libertarianism in today's liberalism, I assume.

Mitch

I suppose similar statements about 'minimum wage' could be made

@Færd I think they are orthogonal concepts

Færd

19:53

Hmm.

I'm just saying how I think these terms are evolving.

Mitch

libertarianism vs control, ... um...

what's the other dimension

is it social vs financial control?

Færd

The third one?

Oh, the second one.

Mitch

You can be a conservative libertarian or a liberal libertarian

Færd

I think we need to get our definitions straight before continuing.

Mitch

@Gigili HEY! You were starred already, for your stop drop and roll comment

Færd

19:56

And I know I'm the one muddying or altering the definitions that were accepted here.

Mar 2 at 15:47, by Mitch

So we don't get powerful parties from all over the map in every country.

In the bicolor polity of the US, for example, what is currently being called liberal is towards the center of that map.

The lack behind grassroots movements in championing various freedoms for minorities etc.

And they are ahead of the public's will in their practice of wealth redistribution.

For example, most Americans prefer universal single-payer healthcare (according to polls I've heard about and not checked myself), but democrats have not caught up to the idea yet.

Obama just came out in support of it in his speech very recently. Which was kinda lame, if you ask me.

Mitch

20:11

@Færd I remember that graph (and think it now) as not being particularly coherent. I can't figure out what the dimensions are.

Færd

"ahead of the public's will" was terrible wording. Sorry. I meant not "lag behind" or something.

@Mitch Hmm.

The horizontal axis is not defined at least.

It should have more to do with cultural conservatism and social norms, rather than with wealth redistribution.

The vertical one is more about government intervention in your business and income etc.

But fascism could be more proximate to the right corner. So I'm not exactly happy with the map either.

Mitch

That's the problem. What 'vertical/horizontal' axis? The cartesian plane of two axes has been tilted to look like a diamond. What I call axes ...

Oh...now I can read it. personal behavior freedom is one axis, economic freedom is the other.

Færd

Oh the axes are tilted.

Yeah.

Mitch

personal freedoms are social things: women's rights, religious tolerance, free speech, (there are other rights here which muddy the waters which I'll leave out for the moment)

Færd

It's crazy when you think of money and social things as perpendicular.

Mitch

20:23

economic freedoms are free market things like market economies vs control economy, regulations on businesses vs not, taxes vs not, govt services vs not.

Færd

It's not that simple. These things have all sorts of intersections with each other.

Mitch

@Færd there are a million dimensions, but people tend to fall in general categories

and this is all over simplification. we're just trying to help understand how the labels are used.

Færd

Yeah, but it gives the notion that they are independent, which is misleading.

Mitch

the classic graph that I am familiar with is a single dimension:

that's how the US and liberal Western democracy thought of itself in comparison to Fascist WWII Germany and Communist Soviet Union. And also the party platforms in the US

Færd

That's better in some ways, but fails to suggest that there is some degree of independence between the two axes we were taling about.

Mitch

20:27

Very oversimplified, but it's how the labels were used.

Færd

Hmm.

Mitch

@Færd Yes.

Færd

Well. We do have to start from some simplified model to explain the complex system.

Mitch

and to force a system to add libertarians, it is 'less wrong' to have the two dimensions of personal and economic freedom.

Færd

I think the best way is to define and explain them separately, and then move on to show how they can affect each other.

Mitch

20:29

but then that puts fascism and communism very close together, which seems weird

Will Hunting

I never understood the differences between communism, socialism, and Marxism.

Mitch

(and theoretically communism is for liberating poor people but tends towards authoritarianism, control of everything)

@WillHunting Marxism is theory in a book, communism is what the soviets and Chinese did in the 20th c, socialism is what the Scandinavians do (but it seems like a lot of conservatives in the US use 'socialism' as a euphemism for Soviet style collectivism).

I still don't know what fascism as a coherent political system is (all the others seem to have some thought behind them).

Færd

I think my biggest issue with the two-dimensional map is that it fails to show how modern technology could bring about much more effective ways for the distribution of power that just can't be put anywhere near centralized autocratic power.

Will Hunting

Of course, I have read all the relevant Wikipedia articles, but some things are hard to grasp.

Mitch

@Færd Oh. I kind of think of technology, while seemingly enabling more individual freedoms, also enables more control by central authorities. Two directions at the same time.

Færd

20:34

@WillHunting They, as many other labels used in poli-sci, have various, at times contradicting, definitions.

Will Hunting

@Færd Perhaps politicians are just not as smart as mathematicians.

Mitch

like the tech might give you bitcoin that can't be traced, but GPS and phones can allow the govt to know exactly where you are at all times.

@WillHunting Perhaps? Politicians are idiots.

Depending on the country of course.

Will Hunting

World politics looks very bad right now.

Mitch

European leaders tend toward the educated.

Will Hunting

Maybe it is just my impression because I have been reading the news regularly in recent times.

Mitch

20:37

Do you remember there was a president of Ukraine, Timoshenko?

Færd

@Mitch What you call the center there could also be more or less dissolved in the big system thru socialist policies: big info companies could be nationalized, or at least come under limiting laws or public scrutiny.

Will Hunting

What about him?

Færd

Facebook, Twitter, etc could be made to abide by free-speech rules, etc.

Mitch

Yulia Tymoshenko

Yulia Volodymyrivna Tymoshenko (Ukrainian: Ю́лія Володи́мирівна Тимоше́нко, pronounced [ˈjulʲijɐ voɫoˈdɪmɪrʲivnɐ tɪmoˈʃɛnko], née Hrihyan, Грігян, born 27 November 1960) is a Ukrainian politician. She co-led the Orange Revolution and was the first woman appointed Prime Minister of Ukraine, serving from 24 January to 8 September 2005, and again from 18 December 2007 to 4 March 2010. Tymoshenko is the leader of the All-Ukrainian Union "Fatherland" political party that has 19 seats in parliament and has Tymoshenko as its parliamentary faction leader. In the 2012 Ukrainian parliamentary election the...

Færd

@WillHunting Well it's a lot more complex of course.

Will Hunting

20:38

@Mitch What do you think of the upcoming midterm elections? Do you think the Democrats will win back control of the House?

Mitch

close! She was an economist/engineer. But I remember distinctly her being referred to as a mathematician. maybe a little stretch of the word.

And wasn't there a President of France who was ...

Poincare (Raymond) was Henri's cousin

Carnot the president was nephew of Carnot the engine engineer

Færd

I'm signing off for tonight guys.

Will Hunting

Interesting observation is that the age difference between Donald and Melania Trump equals that between Emmanuel and Brigette Macron equals 24.

Mitch

but that was a long time ago

Færd

Take care.

Mitch

20:42

@WillHunting Ugh. there's just too much of all that discussion here. Minutiae of minutiae. I just want people to stop and watch the Great British Baking show where everybody is nice to each and then hug and cry when somebody gets kicked off the island.

@Færd later

@WillHunting Creepy in both instances

Will Hunting

@Mitch I prefer watching Love Island where I get to see all the hunks and babes.

Maybe I will take a break from SE the next few days. I have many things to think about.

Mitch

@WillHunting I thought 'The amazing race' was interesting because you get to see new places, but the manufactured drama really bothered me

I thought just the mechanics of the race is enough to keep it interesting, no need to be goading people to say catty things about the other teams

Will Hunting

@Mitch I watched The Amazing Race but did not really enjoy it. I liked The Moment of Truth. Too bad the show doesn't come here because I really want to just tell the truth and win a million dollars because I really need the money.

Mitch

@WillHunting haha. the truth is a lie.

I gotta go myself. have fun.

bye

Will Hunting

kthxbai

RegDwigнt

20:51

OMG I just noticed @Rob is about to beat Barrie White, er, England.

english.stackexchange.com/users?tab=Reputation&filter=all

Will he do it? Will he be our one true King again?

Stay tuned.

MetaEd

@RegDwigнt Don't you mean Vanna England?

Cerberus

23:23

@RegDwigнt Like Jesus?

@MetaEd Well, first, liberalism is also about keeping the state small and granting people and companies economic liberties.

Secondly, rent control is not evil.

Thirdly, stop having such discussions without me!!

@Færd I had drinks with my Brazilian friend last night.

He and his family hate the socialist party (Roussef/Lula/Haddad) so much that some of them might actually vote for Bolsonaro.

My friend would not, nor would he vote for Haddad. Given the choice, he would probably vote blank.

This hatred of the socialist party in certain circles of society is unimaginable to us.

They feel that the problem of crime and corruption is so terrible that something must be done—*anything*, basically. They will do anything to change things.

Even the military dictatorship didn't seem so bad to my friend.

He is gay and he knows that B. hates gays, women, and basically everything who isn't like him, and yet my friend could imagine life under B. or even military dictatorship being less terrible than it is now.

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