English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

RegDwigнt

19:00

I could use a drink alright.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt You neglected the other obvious reason: you being Russian and all.

RegDwigнt

Yeah I dunno if I could call that a reason if it's permanently there.

Like, I'm talking about reason reasons.

Robusto

Oh. What's reason got to do with reasons?

RegDwigнt

Tis the season.

Robusto

"Who needs a heart when a heart can be broken?"

RegDwigнt

19:15

That's some seasoned advice.

Robusto

Fever - Peggy Lee

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Færd

I spent this whole weekend (that is Thursday and Friday) at the bed of a close relation of mine, at the hospital.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto the only prescription is more cowbell.

Færd

He had to have an emergency operation, and I, meanwhile, had enough time to muse how close and intimate relationships work, and whether they and a robust welfare system for all, are mutually exclusive.

Robusto

You might not like that clip due to its reliance on backbeat, but ...

RegDwigнt

19:19

You can't rely on backbeat. Backbeat always needs a main beat to even exist in the first place. Which is exactly what the upright bass's job is in this case. Like, there's only one instrument here and all it does is play on the beat. What are you even on about. Do you even music.

Offbeat Triplets (the "un-performable" rhythm)

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There, go play that.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Why would they be mutually exclusive?

Færd

@FaheemMitha If people didn't have to rely on their closer ones for help for a long enough time, due to a strong welfare system that takes care of anyone with a serious problem, would that cause closer relations between people to pale into insignificance?

At the hospital we were visited by a lot of our frineds and relatives. They all offered their sincere help. I don't mean to doubt their intentions.

But are these feelings fully cultivated only in a society where people have to answer each other's needs in closer circles?

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Interesting. But I don't think the two have much to do with each other. Any welfare system, no matter how robust, is inherently impersonal.

You always need people. And not just in medical emergencies.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Turn it around. Main beat needs backbeat to get moving.

Færd

@FaheemMitha But the nature of the need changes when those immediately around you are of less vital importance for your survival.

RegDwigнt

19:28

@Robusto I don't mean the drive. I'm talking how in absence of main beat, backbeat ceases to be the backbeat and becomes the main beat instead.

That is true of every culture and style, Bach and Quincy Jones alike.

It's composing 101 really. I run into it a lot while reducing scores for two violins. In the most unexpected places, like Katyusha of all things.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Agreed, the nature of the relationship can change.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Most classical composers used it to introduce ambiguity into the rhythm.

RegDwigнt

Exactly.

Actually now that I'm talking about this, there was a recent video on one of the channels I'm subscribed to, that had great examples. I believe Quincy Jones and folks like that.

Faheem Mitha

But is a relationship necessarily worse if you aren't depending on that relationship (or relationships) to not die?

RegDwigнt

Radiohead and the Rhythmic Illusion

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Robusto

19:31

There is a rhythmic ambiguity in this chat right now.

@RegDwigнt Ha, the chords sounded syncopated to me right from the git-go.

Færd

@FaheemMitha I don't think so. We don't think about survival when we enjoy our personal bonds with our friends and family.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd I agree. Assuming one is lucky enough to have such bonds.

Færd

But those bonds stand a higher chance to form when people have to attend to each other.

So I think it does root back to survival, but not in a conscious way.

(I don't think root back to is a valid phrase)

There are so many Westerners who come here and wonder at how close people are with each other.

RegDwigнt

Oh yeah Herbie Hancock not Quincy Jones. Same difference.

Færd

The warm atmosphere takes them by surprise.

Faheem Mitha

19:37

@Færd That might be true. But strong welfare systems are still good things, regardless. Come to India and see what the alternative looks like.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt But you see how the syncopation drives the rhythm forward with an interesting energy.

RegDwigнt

Holy shit I forgot how good that video was. He went from Radiohead to Hancock to now Brahms.

Robusto

Good music is about setting up expectations and then moving into something unexpected.

Færd

@FaheemMitha We are far from having one too. But I think you've got it way worse.

Faheem Mitha

I was having a chat with one of my people. I said that (private) Indian hospitals were hell. He said - you think that's bad? Try Indian government hospitals.

Færd

19:38

I'm just trying to find out what we owe this friendly ethos to.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd For your sake, I hope you do.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto yeah I do that with harmony. I suck at rhythms. Basically what I'm saying is I'm Beethoven.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Yeah, I played the 3rd in Civic.

Faheem Mitha

I thought Iran has some form of universal health care, though.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt You should be so modest.

RegDwigнt

19:39

No, not Modest. Ludwig.

Færd

@FaheemMitha It does, but it's not as all-encompassing as you'd like it to be.

I could do a little research on that. But there definitely are people who feel left out.

And can't pay for all the medical care they need to receive.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Do you get coverage personally?

Færd

I do, to an extent.

Faheem Mitha

And how are the govt hospitals?

I've lost track - is Iran currently suffering under sanctions?

Færd

@FaheemMitha Yes, increasingly.

Faheem Mitha

19:42

@Færd How about dental/vision?

RegDwigнt

That crazy insane African 9/8 rhythm offset vs another 9/8 rhythm reminds me of how I was in Armenia and listened to live Armenian music and it was all over the place and I couldn't make heads or tails of it, but every now and then our waiter would come in and he'd just start clapping to it and suddenly it all fell into place.

How he could make out that rhythm in that mess, I don't know.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Sorry to hear that. Presumably US instigated.

RegDwigнt

It was magical.

Faheem Mitha

That can affect the quality of health care.

Færd

I've had the fortune not to have to frequent the hospital too many times, but I hear government hospitals could be awful.

Robusto

19:43

@RegDwigнt How does one hear phonemes in one's own language? Just by hearing them from an early age.

RegDwigнt

Yeah.

Faheem Mitha

I continue to be impressed at how the people running the US can announce all these insane priorities to their people, without a shred of evidence, and have them be accepted.

RegDwigнt

But really, the moment he'd stop clapping I was lost again. Completely.

Færd

@FaheemMitha Yeah. Comes as no surprise, does it.

Faheem Mitha

Specifically, I mean Iran being some kind of special threat.

RegDwigнt

19:44

It was beautiful music, but meandering and structureless in every sense of the word to my ear. Apparenty not so to a native ear.

Faheem Mitha

BTW, the aforementioned "Madame Secretary" has a lot of stuff about Iran for no particular reason.

@Færd It doesn't.

Færd

It's an old argument.

RegDwigнt

I actually recorded a couple minutes of it, never listened back to it, I might now. Maybe I actually caught an instance of the waiter clapping.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Hmm? What is?

Robusto

@RegDwigнt It would be funny if the Armenians at the other tables were wincing at how he butchered the rhythm.

Færd

19:45

@FaheemMitha The scapegoating rationale, where an enemy is used by the totalitarian to exploit the public.

RegDwigнt

Haha.

Didn't think of that.

Though I believe there was only one table with Armenians. There were some Russians and most of the room was occupied by a huge tourist group from Germany.

Færd

@FaheemMitha I think if their inside situation gets better, it could affect their foreign policy rather positively.

RegDwigнt

I can't even begin to imagine how little sense the music made to ze Dschömanns.

Robusto

Perhaps they were musicologists.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd I wouldn't use the word argument, exactly.

RegDwigнt

19:48

@Robusto no. They were Swabians.

Robusto

Haha.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd I don't think that (a) things are likely to get that much better internally (b) if it does, their position won't change, regardless. It rarely does.

There are rare occasions where the US position has changed. China comes to mind.

For a long time, the US had very aggressive anti-Chinese legislation.

Færd

@FaheemMitha I don't think I agree with either. Younger generations are more promising in some regards in many countries, including the US.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future.

But US "foreign policy" tends to be very consistent.

It's mostly driven by the elites, whose interests don't change much.

Færd

... And America is a very divers nation. If they all come to cooperate and live with each other with respect, that would have some effect on the white supremacist framework of their foreign policy.

Faheem Mitha

19:52

To the extent that the US remains an undemocratic place, and the population remains disempowered, things will remain the same.

Færd

@FaheemMitha And the minorities have consistently been harassed, eg the peoples of color.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd I think it's more about the economics than the culture, in this case.

@Færd Things are improving in some respects. E.g. for people with alternative sexual preferences. But that's orthogonal to "foreign policy".

Færd

@FaheemMitha They tie in together very tightly.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Actually, I think they are rather separate.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Færd

They're not.

Faheem Mitha

19:54

Culture is usually domestic, for one thing.

Færd

If you learn to respect human beings because they are humans, that has a universal effect.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd That's usually a close to home thing.

When one talks about culture, it's usually a local thing.

Færd

Again, not necessarily.

Faheem Mitha

You can't respect people you've never met, who live thousands of miles away, which you probably know nothing about.

Færd

Any household has relations with its neighbors.

Look at the status quo. Look how they're treating asylum seekers.

Faheem Mitha

19:55

@Færd What kind of Iranian community is there in the US? And has it had any influence on US policy towards Iran?

@Færd That analogy doesn't transfer to a global setting. People can talk to their neighbors.

One thing I noticed long before I lived in the US is how insular it was. That might be changing, slowly.

Færd

A change in all that does indeed call for a universal change in viewing the outside world.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd I don't see how asylum seekers are relevant.

Færd

And eventually our common world.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Changes such as this are usually gradual.

Færd

They are.

Faheem Mitha

19:57

Nobody knows what the US of a century from now will look like.

Assuming we are all still here, of course.

Also, there is profound ignorance about other cultures in the US. Of course, that's true of many other countries. But most countries don't have enormous militaries and zillions of bombs.

Færd

I hope it will be much brighter, as I do for everyone.

Faheem Mitha

Again, that might also be slowly changing.

Færd

I hope we're past the stupid narrative of borders and nation-states in a century anyway.

Faheem Mitha

Minority numbers in the US continue to grow. Unfortunately, economic control remains firmly in the hands of the same people.

@Færd One can hope.

At least, let's hope the planet isn't a radioactive wasteland.

Færd

Let's!

Robusto

20:01

@RegDwigнt: One hears a certain ambiguity in the opening bars of Beethoven's 5th. The sharp attack on the off eighth note in 2/4 time, followed by a fermata half note? Leaves the ear feeling like we've just had a triplet on the downbeat.

Færd

But that's all the hoping I'm gonna do tonight.

See you later.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd You didn't answer my question about the Iranian community, though.

Færd

Oh sorry I forgot.

looks back

@FaheemMitha They're an absolute minority there.

They have most populated California, I think.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Of course. But do they have any influence on legislation?

Færd

I believe they've had some regional influence?

Faheem Mitha

20:02

And how about educating Americans?

@Færd Any organized lobbying?

Færd

I can't comment on that.

I know little about them.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Ok. Well, have a good night.

Færd

I know of a neighborhood in LA called Tehrangeles.

And there were some proud Iranian-American citizens there, running decent lives.

Faheem Mitha

I know there are quite a lot of Iranians in the US. Though they are not very visible.

Ditto for Indians. They're probably a little more visible.

And others from the Indian subcontinent.

Færd

I recently listened to an Indian-America congresswoman being interviewed at the Intercept.

Faheem Mitha

20:08

Ironically, Iranians don't stand out that much in the US. Because they don't really look that different from Western people.

Færd

Have you not noticed our noses?

Faheem Mitha

I have/had a friend who acclimatized quite throughly.

@Færd No specially. I suppose there are minor differences.

Færd

They do stand out among typical Westerners, in my eyes.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Oh. But do the Westerners notice?

@Færd You mean the noses, specifically, stand out?

Færd

@FaheemMitha Haha no. That was a joke.

@FaheemMitha I think they do, of course?

Faheem Mitha

20:13

@Færd Shrug. Ok. I hadn't noticed.

@Færd One just got arrested, I think. Assuming there are multiple.

Færd

This is the interview I mentioned: The War On Immigrants.

I like The Intercept's podcasts, generally.

Night.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto yeah luckily the current approach to Beethoven is to play all of that in under 1 nanosecond, so you don't need to worry about any of that.

Like seriously I'm so fucking tired of all the videos on YouTube that go "OMG guys I used software to speed up Beethoven to the actual tempo he actually notated". Fucking idiots. You debunk one of them, ten more spawn in the mean time.

Not to mention the million comments under each and every single one of them going "OMG awesome".

My life is too short to even copypaste "you are an idiot I hope you die a horrible death" to each of them.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt It's the virtuoso mentality. If you're not getting into the Guiness Book of Records, you're not playing the piece fast enough.

RegDwigнt

No it's the dumb fuck mentality. Like, it's beyond virtuoso. You cannot play that physically. Not even a machine can. The instrument is constructed such that it won't allow it.

Robusto

You don't need a machine to fuck up a piece of music.

It helps, but you don't need it.

RegDwigнt

20:25

Yeah YouTube will do.

YouTube will do to fuck up anything, really.

Many times over.

Every hour, on the hour.

Robusto

Listen to Liszt played by one of those hacks who completely misses the music of, say, one of the Hungarian Rhapsodies but plays cascades of notes more or less in time.

You don't realize that Liszt was an amazing composer.

RegDwigнt

There's that piece of his that I keep returning to every ten years. I will never understand it.

Robusto

Which one?

RegDwigнt

I was just about to go check if it's on IMSLP.

Robusto

One of the transcendental etudes?

RegDwigнt

20:26

It's just some "easy" piano thing.

Robusto

Ha.

RegDwigнt

A sonata or something.

Not even that.

Just two pages.

But it's my kryptonite because it's about rhythms.

I have the sheet music in front of me. Sonatina No 1. Adagio. HV 56.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd That's the paper that Glen Greenwald writes for now, correct?

@Færd Good Night.

RegDwigнt

There's not even triplets. Just 8s and 16s. And I can't play it.

It fucks with my brain.

I fail in bar 6 already. Always have, always will.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Everyone in the US is descended from immigrants by definition. But somehow they are the enemy? Not to mention they continue to be important to the country, economically and otherwise.

RegDwigнt

20:30

And you say etudes. Yeah go tell me about his etudes. I can't play his fucking waltz is what this is.

Haydn 1 Sonatina D major HV 56

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And I'm not alone.

That dude sounds ten times better than me, mind.

And he sounds fucking atrocious.

Maybe learning the violin will help with this actually. That's a very violinistic score. I see that all the time now.

Hm. Would be funny if I tried playing it on the violin tomorrow and got it first try.

And then sat at the piano and failed again.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Looks deceptively simple. I'll print it out and give it a try when I have some time.

RegDwigнt

Inorite.

Knock yourself out.

imslp.org/wiki/6_Sonatinas_(Haydn%2C_Joseph)

That's the link.

Robusto

The one that really fucks with my head is the slow movement of the Bach Italian Concerto.

I can play the first and the last movements, and I can "play" the middle movement, but I have such a hard time making musical sense of that rambling, meandering melody.

RegDwigнt

Never tried that one. But it's Bach and he's always been my friend.

Robusto

Friends can turn on you.

RegDwigнt

20:41

Sometimes it takes like forever to get what the fuck he wants from me, but I do get it eventually.

Robusto

Here's Ralph Kirkpatrick showing how it should be done:

Ralph Kirkpatrick plays Bach (Italian Concerto, Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue, Partita No. 1)

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But damned if it ever works that way for me.

RegDwigнt

That invention no 3 I picked from my teacher's book to play, that one made no sense at all. I instantly regretted it. Felt like a little kid again looking at this nonsense and it's not even musical at all, like he ran out of ideas with nice clear motives and just used whatever.

But I persisted, and oh what do you know, just after a week it started to click into place.

And now I find it very beautiful indeed.

Like, in that first week I listened to Glenn Gould and everything, still made no sense to me. I couldn't make out anything in that, either.

Robusto

Slow movements are the very hardest things to play, in my view.

RegDwigнt

But now I can like hum it in the shower.

@Robusto yeah I sometimes wait for so long before playing the next note that I forget if I've been waiting for a beat or seven.

What is the slowest music humanly possible?

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When your inner clock ticks too slowly, it just stops ticking altogether.

I'm finding that when I'm drunk, my inner clock ticks much slower than usual so playing something slow should be easier. Alas, when you're drunk there's suddenly all kinds of other problems with playing. Even at the slowest tempo.

It's true what they say. You can't have your vodka and drink it, too.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Yeah. And a lot of people think weed makes playing better too. They are wrong.

RegDwigнt

20:51

Those people should record themselves playing.

Really everyone should. On some instruments more so than on others, but it always helps.

Robusto

The first thing that goes is their timing.

RegDwigнt

Duuuuuudeeeeee

Luckily that can't happen to me cuz I have no timing in the first place.

That's ultimately what fucked up my dreams of becoming a conductor.

Robusto

I still have some cassettes of me playing chamber concerts, but nothing to play them on. I'd be afraid to listen to them now anyway, given how far I've fallen since then.

RegDwigнt

Yeah well, just upload it to YouTube and let it be others' problem.

Robusto

Meh.

RegDwigнt

20:54

I'm serious tho. That's why I keep doing random shit like learning violins or participating in cycling races or whatever. Ultimately no matter how shit I am, I am still better than 99% of the populace simply for the fact that I've tried and they haven't.

Like, there was that one race when I was like 17. I came in 6th. Out of 9. Three of which didn't show up in the first place. So basically I finished last.

But here's the thing. 7 billion people didn't finish at all.

Robusto

Well, yeah.

RegDwigнt

And yes, maybe if they had all participated, I'd've come up 7billion and 6th.

But maybe not.

And in any case, they haven't, and so I haven't.

Robusto

No. Don't forget the people who need those motorized carts to get around in Walmart.

RegDwigнt

And so now I can tell you the story of how I came in 6th in an actual race. And you're like whoa that dude can cycle alright.

Same with the Haydn. That poor sod above that can't play at all. He still plays it better than 100 out of 100 people that you pick off the street. Maybe 50 out of 100 if you're in New York.

Robusto

If you're in New York the cab drivers (or Uber drivers) can outplay you at both music and chess.

RegDwigнt

20:58

And yet even they don't know how to get to Carnegie Hall.

Robusto

Practice!

RegDwigнt

That composer guy whose video on rhythm I showed you earlier, he just uploaded a video about that saying. And it was actually good. I didn't expect that.

How to get to Carnegie Hall (or your own personal equivalent)

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Well, "just". Six moths ago now.

Mitch

@RegDwigнt haha...I hope this doesn't hurt but no I do not care what you wrote six years ago, much less 5 seconds ago. If you're not saying it now it is useless and gone.

Maybe when editing I deleted the last digit of the reference?

RegDwigнt

Well seeing how you wrote this five seconds ago, I have to ask: and who are you?

Mitch

21:16

I feel like someone just said something but ... whatever

MetaEd

To date, the slowest music possible is John Cage's As Slow as Possible. There is a performance going on right now which will definitely still be going on after everyone here has died.

Mitch

@RegDwigнt They took too long to get to the point so I watched more dog and cat videos

@MetaEd I think right now is intermission. the third movement is up next