English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

00:00

But why do people care to morally justify their side?

I would say, because enough other people find it important.

And perhaps also they themselves.

Færd

That's a good question.

Cerberus

There is also the 'civilising effect of political debate': people tend to express themselves more civilly in a parliamentary setting; and, even if an argument begins as something disingenuous, one often comes to believe what one preaches eventually, to some degree.

Not always, and not absolutely; but it happens.

On the other hand, we have enough examples where a casus belli seemed rather disingenuous.

Some pretence stuck on a hunger for power.

So it's hard to say.

To outsiders, it often seems incredible that the population of some foreign country should be genuinely enraged by some symbolic or cultural issue.

Færd

Moral rules often reflect the dialectic of the different tiers or classes in the power structure of a society.

If the clergy have a say in the life of a people, no doubt they and their rulings will hold moral value and virtue as well.

As an example.

If the traditional family structure is knitted through the economic fabric of the society, then family values will be very important to the moral sense of that society, and whoever breaks them will have their neck broken.

And so on.

Cerberus

> the traditional family structure is knitted through the economic fabric of the society

I'm not entirely sure I understand this part.

But, yes, moral rules can be based on many things, amongst which are power structures.

Færd

00:16

Well, I mean "if the basic economic cell is the family".

Cerberus

Although I think the aversion of slavery was growing all over Europe and its (former) colonies in the mid-19th century (though not elsewhere), and mainly for common-sense ethical reasons.

@Færd Ah, OK.

Færd

I guess I'm arguing there are no common sense ethical reasons in that sense.

Cerberus

Why not?

In Antiquity as well, there were quite a few people who found slavery immoral.

Færd

Your ethics will be determined to a high extent by how your society works and what ways of life are compatible with it and what ways aren't.

Cerberus

Philosophers, for example.

@Færd That is one factor. But there are also other factors.

That's also why you can see that some norms evolved in widely disparate cultures.

Færd

00:20

At the same time, I don't intend to deny the existence of any intrinsic values for us.

Yes.

Cerberus

OK.

And I don't think that the (post)-Enlightenment aversion of slavery was inspired by economic or power structures so much as by philosophy and common-sense ethics.

Færd

But they all should be very basic.

Cerberus

Its fits into the Enlightenment perfectly.

Færd

There's a long way between those intrinsic norms and the morality of a people.

Cerberus

You could say the Enlightenment to some degree also reflected upcoming middle classes; but it was actually strongest in France, where the bourgeoisie was far less powerful than in many other regions in Europe, such as England, Holland, Germany, Scandinavia (probably).

Færd

00:23

For example, some argue that slavery isn't abolished in our era, because we have wage slavery: you get paid by the amount of time you put into something, not by the value you add to it.

Cerberus

@Færd But I would say it is an important factor.

Of course I encourage cynicism!

But there is more.

@Færd Umm I think there are very important moral differences between slavery and e.g. low-paid, dangerous jobs in British factories in 1800.

Færd

There are.

Would you please give me a definition of what you mean by bourgeois?

Cerberus

So think it makes no sense to say that slavery isn't abolished in our area now.

Færd

I find people using that term in different senses.

Cerberus

@Færd In that example, I meant the middle classes in Europe.

Færd

00:27

OK.

@Cerberus You could think of someone who has no choice but to sell his time as a part-time slave.

Cerberus

As opposed to the nobility, the clergy, and the lower classes.

Færd

@Cerberus I remember once you said "Tehran is not yet bourgeois". Did you mean the same thing then?

Cerberus

@Færd I don't know what you mean by that exactly, but I must object to the (what I see as American) tendency to stretch the meaning of words to include something related but different and somewhat less immoral, in order to fuel moral outrage over the different subject.

@Færd Umm I don't remember!

Without context, I wouldn't understand my own utterance.

Færd

May 10 '17 at 1:49, by Cerberus

Nor yet bourgeois.

Cerberus

@Færd Ah, no, I meant something quite different there.

Færd

00:30

So what did you mean?

Cerberus

I meant typical of the petite bourgeoisie.

Concerned with petty things.

Færd

I see.

That's what I guessed it meant.

Cerberus

(An attitude which I think is commonest in countries with a Protestant history anyway.)

What will the neighbours think?

Færd

We're getting there.

Cerberus

Should I vacuum the house twice or thrice daily?

Færd

00:33

They all sound familiar.

Cerberus

How may I imitate the élite [but fail]?

Those are the concerns of the petite bourgeoisie, I should say.

Færd

@Cerberus At the same time, I think it's appropriate to point out basic similarities between two things to which people react in illogically disparate ways.

Cerberus

I am all for pointing out similarities, but not for aequation.

And I also strongly support addressing people's disproportionate reactions to things.

Færd

Slavery is when someone owns you, and doesn't trade in values with you.

Cerberus

Another example is 'violence'.

@Færd I think the legal aspect is indeed important, and also the possibility of exploitation; but also the fact that he can physically lock you up or punish you.

Færd

00:38

You could think of a wage worker as someone who gives up part of his life to get his necessities.

The punishment comes through the larger system: if you don't work for wages, you won't be able to answer some essential needs.

Cerberus

If your boss locks you up and you physically cannot remove yourself from forced labour, and if you can be sold, then I think a wage worker could be called a slave.

Færd

@Cerberus You mean violence coming from individuals vs coming from states?

Cerberus

There is a difference between exploited labourers, serfs, and slaves.

Færd

They bear basic similarities.

Cerberus

@Færd An example. The papers cry havoc about high rates of violence against homosexuals. 50% report experiencing violence in the last year.

But it turns out that cursing is grouped under 'verbal violence' in the study.

And most of those 50% were only called "faggot" or similar.

Færd

00:42

Wouldn't that amount to violence?

Cerberus

Then I think the use of 'violence' is misleading, because most people will read the headline as "50% of homosexuals experienced physical violence" which is not the case.

Most people don't think of name-calling when they hear 'violence'.

> Violence is defined by the World Health Organization as "the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation," although the group acknowledges that the inclusion of "the use of power" in its definition expands on the conventional understanding of the word.[2]

Færd

But there are examples where name-calling reflect passionate sentiments against some groups.

Cerberus

@Færd Naturally. And it may be even worse than physical violence, depending on the situation. Or it could be less bad. But it's just a different thing.

Færd

Then not standing up to such abusive narratives would amount to more actual violence.

Cerberus

I'm not sure what you mean by that?

I think it undermines people's trust if you start to call name-calling violence: when they find out, they will be thinking, Jesus, that's misleading, they're trying to make it sound worse than it is [regardless of whether that's true]; I will trust science / political party x / institute y less now.

Færd

00:47

> Broken sticks and broken stones
Will turn to dust just like our bones
It's words that hurt the most now isn't it

From a song.

I just can't find a clear line between verbal and physical violence in terms of the pain that they'd cause me.

If there's too much import and meaning behind a term of abuse, if it means "I really want to hurt you", then it's violence itself.

Cerberus

The fact that A and B are aequally bad doesn't mean that they are the same thing.

Færd

I'm challenging your definition of violence.

Cerberus

Theft or environmental destruction can also be really, really bad and have a very bad effect on people. But they are very different in nature from physical violence against a person, so I would not call them violence.

Just as I would not call physical violence 'destruction of the environment'.

Regardless of which is worse.

Færd

> the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual ...

If a term of abuse is strong enough it counts as a threat.

Cerberus

@Færd As I read it, your argument sounds like this: A is just as bad as B; therefore, it's fine to call A B.

Færd

00:53

Well, it's not.

Cerberus

@Færd I pasted that (from Wiki) as an example of how the term's meaning is stretched, and of how the WTO itself admits that it is stretching it.

Færd

I'm saying let's find the key factors that we base our definitions on.

Cerberus

I agree with that approach.

Færd

Do we look for violence in inner intentions?

Cerberus

I'm not sure what you mean?

Færd

00:54

In the nature of the immediate outward results?

Cerberus

Ok you mean, how do we define violence, and you offer two criteria.

I would say, both are required to some degree?

Færd

I mean "Is having harmful and malicious intentions enough to call an act a violent one?".

Cerberus

I would say, no.

Færd

Or must we always look at the result?

Cerberus

There needs to be some evil intention or at least a disregard for the well-being of others, in addition to a bad actual effect on others.

If one attempts to commit violence, but fails, then it isn't violence, but attempted violence.

Just as attempted murder is not murder.

Similarly, if one kills someone by accident, then it isn't murder, though it could be criminal negligence.

Færd

00:57

I don't agree with that at all.

Cerberus

Why not?

Færd

Violence strongly connotes inner spiteful convictions.

Cerberus

Then you would say 'attempted violence' is a nonsensical phrase?

@Færd I agree.

Færd

I'm not sure how much emphasis I should put on the immediate result of the action when I want to define violence.

Cerberus

I would say both intent and result are required to some degree for something to be called an act of violence.

Færd

00:59

But I'd say someone who shot at me but missed the target perpetrated violence.

So the part that intention plays in the definition of violence is clearer to me.

And this could be enough to call for legal regulations.

Cerberus

@Færd But he only attempted, but did not commit, murder?

@Færd The law clearly distinguishes between attempting to shoot someone and actually shooting him.

Færd

@Cerberus His act would still count as violence.

@Cerberus As it should.

But it mustn't disregard either as non-violent.

Cerberus

@Færd But would it count as murder?

Færd

Each should bring about its proportionate punishment.

@Cerberus No, of course not.

Cerberus

Why not, then?

Why does it matter whether actual physical harm was inflicted in 'murder', but not in 'violence'?

Færd

01:04

@Cerberus Because the dead body resulting from yiuor intentional act is a cornerstone of the definition of "murder".

Cerberus

Indeed.

Færd

@Cerberus Because they're not the same thing?

Cerberus

So why is the physical aspect no cornerstone of violence?

Færd

It's just what violence means.

Ask anyone.

Cerberus

I would say most people feel that the physical aspect is essential.

Færd

01:06

They don't look for the extent of the visible outside harm to evaluate how violent you are.

I think the emotional aspect is also very important.

Cerberus

Violent can mean "engaging in violence", but also "tending to commit violence", so I think that word complicates matters.

So what would your definition of violence be?

And can you ensure that it excludes undesired phaenomena, while remaining consistent and centred around a clear 'essence'?

Færd

I should think about it more.

Maybe something along the lines of "A bitter expression of ill will".

Cerberus

It is a complicated matter.

Færd

But that's just too vague.

Cerberus

@Færd "I hate you".

You probably don't want that?

Færd

01:10

That's not ill will.

> "I wish you were dead."

That's more like it, but still not necessarily there.

Cerberus

Why not?

> hostile feeling; malevolence; enmity: to harbor ill will against someone.

@Færd Let's go with that, then.

Færd

OK.

> I seriously wish you were dead.

Cerberus

I feel that e.g. torture can be non-violent.

Færd

huh?

Cerberus

Forms of psychological torture that don't involve anything physical?

Færd

01:14

> I would take any necessary action to ensure you were dead, if only I could.

Cerberus

I feel that 'violating something or someone' is quite different from 'violence' in the context I began with.

@Færd That sounds like possibly a threat of violence to me.

Færd

@Cerberus Well that's right.

Cerberus

OK.

Færd

But torture can take many forms.

Cerberus

Indeed.

Færd

01:15

An impertinent child can greatly torture their parents. But that's not necessarily violence.

Cerberus

And torture usually involves physically restricting someone, in which case I would probably call it violence.

@Færd Well, I would call that metaphorical.

I didn't mean metaphorical torture.

Færd

It's as if we use different dictionaries.

Cerberus

I like to search for the essence of words.

I like to exclude (living) metaphors in strict definitions.

Færd

A child could be very well aware of the pain she inflicts on her father by disobeying her and the like.

Cerberus

Still, I would say real torture also requires power over the object?

And serious harm.

Færd

01:18

And yet she does pick petty fights with him and agonizes him in as many ways as she can.

Cerberus

And evil intent.

Færd

Isn't that torture?

Cerberus

Metaphorically, yes.

But strictly, I would probably say no, because of the criteria I've just added.

By strictly, I mean, the way you would use a word in an academic paper, or in a legal text, or in a government report.

Færd

@Cerberus The child has that.

Cerberus

Where you want to be as strict and precise as possible.

Færd

01:20

@Cerberus And could cause that.

Cerberus

@Færd Can a child truly be said to have evil intent?

Does it really understand what it's doing? Does it truly want to harm its father?

Færd

@Cerberus And in a sense, has that too. The father doesn't feel free to let go of the child, and she abuses this bond.

@Cerberus Oh of course.

Cerberus

I feel that that's stretching the meaning of those words too wide.

Færd

In as much as we understand how miserable we could make others' lives.

Why?

Does a child understand revenge?

Cerberus

Because I feel that a child usually doesn't really want to harm her parent in a strict sense, and that she doesn't have enough power over him: he can walk away, as many parents do, or take other measures to mitigate the pain she causes him.

And she will usually not have enough experience and empathy to understand what it's truly like for her father.

Færd

01:23

I don't agree.

Cerberus

At least less so than an adult would.

Færd

There are children who really hate their parents at very young age.

Cerberus

I feel that the word torture is perfectly fine to describe that situation in common parlance.

Færd

OK.

Cerberus

But not in e.g. an academic paper assessing the incidence of torture in society.

Metaphorical language is real language.

There is nothing wrong with it in general.

Færd

01:25

That would be a useless study, without specifying the kind of torture in question.

Cerberus

I'm sure it will be specified.

Færd

It's like assessing the amount of evil in a given community.

Cerberus

But I don't think anyone would expect a child's torture of her parents to be in the study.

Færd

Well, if it's a psychological study directed at children then maybe they would.

Cerberus

It could be in a philosophical paper; but there the case of the child would be considered an edge case, an interesting philosophical situation; but not a clear-cut case of torture.

@Færd I don't think many academic papers are directed at children!

Of course the motto of this room remains always in force: context is key.

I can't say it would or should never be used that way.

Færd

01:29

I've amassed a bunch of good questions to think about.

Cerberus

Maybe, in some contexts, it would make sense to me to call a particular instance of name-calling 'violence'. I don't know. But, generally, I think it's not what people expect when they see a statistic like "50% of homosexuals are victims of violence each year".

@Færd Oh, dear. Whom will you ask them to?

Færd

My self, when I'm alone with him.

I tend to be able to think clearer then.

Cerberus

You call yourself 'him'?

Færd

I call my self him.

Or maybe it.

Cerberus

I am willing to call what happens to some immigrants in northern Libya 'slavery', and also what happens to some foreign prostitutes here.

@Færd Your self, but not yourself?

Do you feel like a particular sex when you are alone in your thoughts?

I don't, not without anything regarding body or social interaction.

Færd

01:32

@Cerberus What happens to those sex workers?

@Cerberus Me neither, hence "or maybe it".

Cerberus

@Færd They agree to come here under false pretences; then their passports are taken away, and they are told they must prostitute themselves here under threat of violence or legal punishment.

And by violence I mean physical.

@Færd I'm glad we agree!

Færd

@Cerberus How horrific.

Cerberus

I'd like to know how many people feel that way. It seems obvious to me that everyone should feel that way, but it's hard to find out. Many people maybe aren't articulate or imaginative enough to fully consider the question.

Færd

The question of violence and how to define it?

Cerberus

@Færd Quite. So I would probably call that slavery, because they (think they) are physically or legally unable to walk away and refuse to work, even though of course they aren't legally slaves.

@Færd No, about one's mental sex.

Færd

01:37

@Cerberus Ah. I think of my sexual organs as peripherals.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Færd

I'm not even human in my mind.

Cerberus

Maybe not.

One feels just like a 'subject'.

Færd

A piece of consciousness.

Cerberus

Not like an object with properties.

Yes.

Although one does feel like an object in many situations during introspection or other thought processes.

"I realise I am applying thought process x again here", or some such.

Færd

01:40

"though"?

Cerberus

"I should now try to view this issue from a different perspective".

@Færd Oops!

Færd

Ah, I see.

Cerberus

I apologize for my sloppy typing, and for my autocorrect.

Yuck, I did it twice.

Færd

Please don't, because I'd have to apologize a thousand times more.

Cerberus

No, I think I'm far worse. I only see it when I look at my lines later.

Færd

01:43

@Cerberus But you don't carry along your previous self with you to your present self to scrutinize it.

You leave that one behind and come to be the new you.

Cerberus

Perhaps I should turn off autocorrect for though/through/thought, because it may be preferable to see a typoed word over seeing the wrong word.

Færd

Are you one your phone now?

Cerberus

@Færd You mean from one thought to the next?

@Færd No.

I couldn't type that fast on my phone.

I use an Autohotkey script for autocorrect here.

Færd

I see.

I'm saying when you bring your properties under scrutiny, they are as if they don't belong to you anymore.

@Cerberus Referring to this message, and what followed it.

Cerberus

> #Hotstring B0 ; Turns off automatic backspacing for the following hotstrings.

#If not Winactive("Notepad++")

::align::
::antiforeign::
::arraign::
::assign::
::benign::
::campaign::
::champaign::
::codesign::
::coign::
::condign::
::consign::
::coreign::
::cosign::
::countercampaign::
::countersign::
::deign::
::deraign::
::design::
::eloign::
::ensign::
::feign::
::foreign::
::indign::
::malign::
::misalign::
::outdesign::
::overdesign::
::preassign::
::realign::
::reassign::
::redesign::

An example rule.

Færd

01:47

Ah!

Cerberus

@Færd Right, it is a bit like a hermeneutic circle.

I think I understand what you're saying.

Færd

I use to meditate a lot in the past.

Cerberus

> ;------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; Word endings
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:?:bilites::bilities
:?:bilties::bilities
:?:blities::bilities
:?:bilty::bility
:?:blity::bility
:?:, btu::, but ; Not just replacing "btu", as that is a unit of heat.
:?:; btu::; but
:?:n;t::n't
:?:;ll::'ll
:?:;re::'re
:?:;ve::'ve
::sice::since ; Must precede the following line!
:?:sice::sive
:?:t eh:: the
; :?:t hem:: them

Other examples.

Færd

And I did it in the most brutal and austere way: I stripped my self from all properties.

I just was.

Cerberus

Did that work?

Færd

01:49

Of course. And it brought along very strange things with itself.

Cerberus

It sounds like a very difficult thing to do.

Færd

For example, I could distance myself from my pain and observe it as a peripheral, and therefore tolerate excruciating pains that others couldn't.

I can't do it now. I gave up that lifestyle some time ago.

Cerberus

@Færd That sounds good.

@Færd Why not?

Færd

It requires a certain amount of belief maybe. I've lost those convictions.

Maybe I could revive the lifestyle in another way, but it seems pointless.

@Cerberus Really depends on what you mean by good.

Cerberus

@Færd Hmm why pointless?

@Færd claps hands Let's define 'good'!

Færd

01:57

@Cerberus Oh damn!

@Cerberus Because I didn't care about those abilities, those perks that came with that kind of meditation.

What was important to my was that I was paying more attention to God.

Cerberus

Perks like feeling removed from an object-like state, or something like that?

Færd

Yes.

Cerberus

@Færd And you don't care about that any more?

Færd

We'd have to define God!

But at least I could say I care a great deal less now.

Cerberus

@Færd Yay!

Many philosophers have attempted to define either.

@Færd So you still care about God to some degree?

Færd

02:02

I thought of existence as one.

I still do. Reality is not of multiple nature.

It'd take some time for me to clarify.

And that one thing I called God, to have something in common with other people who worship their God.

But really, they weren't the same thing.

Cerberus

I see.

Maybe some aspect of their worship is that.

Plato and various other philosophers would probably agree.

Færd

But people mostly picture God as a separate entity that closely connects with them from above.

And most of those who say existence is one, really are talking about a unifying soul that runs through diverse and separate bodies.

Anyway.

Cerberus

@Færd Possibly.

Or they have different conceptions of God at the same time (or at different moments).

Feeds

02:54

0

Q: What is the term for a beginner who is also a pro?

I am looking for a word or group of words to describe someone who just started doing something, but is already very good at it, or a beginner without faults. For example, it could be used in this sentence: "Although Mary had just started playing Tennis, she had already won 3 tournaments; Some cou...

single-word-requests

SmokeDetector

04:26

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad NS for domain in body, blacklisted website in body, pattern-matching website in body, potentially bad keyword in body: More Together With A Weekly Supplement by hosehiko on english.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, bad NS for domain in body, bad NS for domain in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, +4 more: platinumcleanserinfo.com/luminary-v/ by janitodie on english.SE

Feeds

05:27

0

Q: Solidary? Solidaritous? Solidarious? Adjective for having "solidarity"

I've been wondering this for a time, especially in moments when I would like to use this mystery word. You can say someone exhibits "solidarity", but what is the adjective for someone who does as part of their nature? I keep wanting to just use something like in the title above, namely: "solidary...

single-word-requests

Feeds

07:53

0

Q: 'Earth-based' adjective counterpart to 'Lunar' or 'Solar'

We have adjectives relating to various celestial bodies: 'Solar', 'Lunar', 'Martian', 'Venusian' etc. What would be the counterpart to Earth? 'Earthian' sounds very awkward to me... is it valid?

single-word-requests adjectives

SmokeDetector

09:09

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, repeated URL at end of long post: maleintalk.com/res-q-natural-male-testosterone/ by user303202 on english.SE

Araucaria

09:24

@tchrist @MetaEd @AndrewLeach I seem to remember us having a minimum age of thirteen policy, if so you probably need to read this user's profile!

:english.stackexchange.com/users/302820/kangalioo

Feeds

12:15

0

Q: How do you say "wake up" to someone who is not sleeping but fainted?

For example: Adam faints. Steve goes there and tries to (wake up?) him. What do you do with someone who fainted?

single-word-requests

TRiG

@Araucaria I think that's an artefact of US law. There are extra requirements for taking data on kids under 13, so most sites find it easier not to.

terdon

And they've been on SO for "2 years, 2 months", so they're likely no longer 12.

SmokeDetector

12:30

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, +2 more: www.healthdietalert.com/livali-cream/ by user303254 on english.SE

Araucaria

12:49

@terdon I'm not particularly bothered unless it gets SE into trouble. But it's good that the user will be able to stay on here. They've written at least one decent question!

terdon

:)

Mitch

13:12

@Færd I'm conflating the two racism and abolition simply to streamline the exposition.

That said, racism is usually considered not to be about intent (or consciousness of it) but to be about the effect. Someone may not intend to be mean to the equally qualified Kurd, but if they consistently give the job to Armenians instead, then that is racism.

@Færd Sure, economics and popular support for abolition was involved, it enabled or made easier other decisions and influenced winnability, but economics was not the primary cause. South Carolina seceded because (official proclamations say that) they feared that slavery would be made illegal. The US Federal government started military hostilities in order to stop secession, not to stop slavery.

@Cerberus I meant linear A?

@Cerberus Yeah, it's very rough sociology, and my theories could easily depend on an infinite number of contexts. But that's what I've heard recently. I think in reference to Hispanic immigrants to the US and Indians to the UK: the ones who move are hard working and spend all their time saving up to give their kids a better life, and then (a very small handful of) the kids sometimes, split within the two cultures, join gangs/radical elements. The parents don't do that but the kids sometimes do.

At least that's what I read.

@Færd I'm not sure what you're referring to but slavery had been abolished in the north by the politicians so ideologically on that point they were pretty different. It's clear that the northern politicians didn't want slavery in the north. It's clear they did not want it in new states (Missouri/Kansas). It's not clear that they wanted to abolish it in the south (some did, some didn't care)

Mitch

13:49

The Emancipation Proclamation (which freed slaves in 1963) only named 10 states, not the slaveholding states that were not part of the Confederacy (Missouri Kentucky Maryland Delaware and future West Virginia) and not those parts of the confederacy that were under US occupation. So even if later there was an intention to free all US slaves, he EP was mostly a political act (it was unenforceable in the places it had no control over, and it didn't apply to the places it did have control over)

Look man, you got me having a political argument on the internet. What has this world come to.

To rectify that, I now proclaim it is Dad joke Thursday.

What’s the best thing about living in Switzerland? I don’t know but the flag is a big plus.

Tweeted by DadsPuns on June 14, 2018 at 10:35 AM

Feeds

15:12

1

Q: What is a word or phrase meaning "to bring in account" or "to bring into a controlled state"?

What is a word or phrase meaning "to bring in account" or "to bring into a controlled state"? I don't think "to bring into account" is exactly the phrase I'm looking for... I want to convey the idea of taking something which is in an unknown state and beginning to manage or know the state. I don...

single-word-requests phrase-requests american-english expression-requests

Feeds

16:33

0

Q: One who wants to save his money but can't, is called what?

The term 'extravagant' is circulating in my mind but this is not the term that I want. The term 'extravagant' is an adjective. I need noun for the one who wants his money be saved but is unable to do so.

single-word-requests

MetaEd

17:21

@Araucaria It's still 13. Thanks for noticing that

Faheem Mitha

18:06

@Mitch Was there ever slavery in the North?

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, that is generally true in most places, I think.

Faheem Mitha

When I first arrived in NC, I lived in a rather run down apartment complex in Carrboro which was mostly populated by students. Then Mexican families appeared, and the whole place took a nose dive. Racism or not, I quickly concluded that I didn't want Mexicans as neighbors. At the least the kind that seemed to be appearing there.

For a year or maybe a bit more, I had downstairs neighbors who were an absolute nightmare. Three Mexican men.

I remember one horrible New Years Day, they were playing music till 3 am and then started again at 8 am. Very loudly.

Cerberus

I had Polish downstairs neighbours once.

Faheem Mitha

I finally complained to the apartment management, and I think they were evicted. The three men living there violated the lease, or so I heard.

Cerberus

The stench in the staircase coming from their apartment was overwhelming.

Even so, one must not judge an individual person for belonging to a certain group, not even if a large number of people in that group behave in an undesirable way.

Faheem Mitha

18:21

Anyway, I eventually moved out. With a great sense of relief. It's been a good many years, but I was reading reviews for the complex a little while back (it's still standing) and the reviews are pretty terrible. The cockroach motif is writ large. I don't remember any cockroaches while I was there. Maybe it deteriorated - the place wasn't exactly palatial when I arrived, but I spent a few happy years there before the Mexicans arrived.

Cerberus

That sounds unfortunate.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus That's nice in theory, but humans generalize from a small sample set. Everyone does it, and it's hard to stop them.

Cerberus

Yes, but we should be aware of it, and we should give every single person a chance if at all possible.

Nevertheless, I won't blame you for not wanting to live in a neighbourhood with certain groups of people.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus I didn't (and don't) go around saying Mexicans are terrible because I had terrible Mexican neighbors, if that is what you mean. Actually, I quite like people from Latin cultures. They are often quite cool people.

Cerberus

Don't think our leftist politicians here would live in a lower-class neighbourhood or send them to such a school, exceptions excepted.

Faheem Mitha

18:23

I've met some Latin people - mostly grad students.

Cerberus

Good.

Faheem Mitha

Not recently, of course.

Wrong hemisphere.

Cerberus

Alas.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Alas?

Cerberus

That was non-serious.

Faheem Mitha

18:27

Never been to South America, though.

I particularly like that Latin people are often quite relaxed and laid back. Especially the women. And especially compared to a place like India.

Cerberus

Oh?

Faheem Mitha

Maybe it's a Latin thing. Never been to Spain either.

Of course, I'm again generalizing from a small sample set.

Mitch

@FaheemMitha Above the Mason Dixon line, New Jersey was the last to abolish slavery, in 1804. Before that, sure there were slaves in the northern states but never as high a percentage as in the south. And they were slowly getting rid of them.

Bringing new slaves in to the country was stopped in 1808 (except for South Carolina, I can't seem to find when they did stop)

Faheem Mitha

@Mitch 18004?

Mitch

fixed

Faheem Mitha

18:35

@Mitch What happened in 1808?

Mitch

A law was passed?

follow the links

Faheem Mitha

@Mitch ok

Presumably this bit:

> In 1808, the United States outlawed the international slave import trade, but the domestic trade in half the states continued.

I wonder what the driving force for abolition was.

Mitch

@FaheemMitha in the 1700's the British slave trade was huge, and before the US revolution, hundred's of thousands were brought in.

Faheem Mitha

@Mitch Ok. But the British themselves abolished slavery in the 1820s. At least in name.

And in a purely technical sense.

Mitch

@FaheemMitha I'm not sure if that was only for the main island or if it also abolished it where they were used like in Jamaica and other Caribbean agricultural colonies

High growth in # of slaves after ~1808 was from natural growth, not overseas trade

Robusto

18:52

Mod alert:

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word-choice

Mitch

@Robusto already deleted (by someone)

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