English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

19:00

@Mitch Huh, maybe I have the taste of tarragon wrong, then.

@Færd It is difficult to value killings by numbers.

But we are should be cautiously optimistic about Africa in the mid-long term.

Mitch

@Cerberus I don't think the tastes are that close, just that the species are in the same genus or family, whereas basil and mint are in another genus together.

or something like that

don't hold me to any of this

Cerberus

Income fluctuates a bit: I believe there was a recession after 2010 in Africa as well, but they have recovered, too.

@Mitch Hmm but I believe tarragon has more 'flaccid' leaves?

Færd

Tarragon is the one that makes your mouth pleasantly sizzle for a while.

Mitch

@Cerberus did you see the maps of toilet coverage in india, from 2014 vs 2018?

maybe that was a poor choice of words.

Cerberus

@Mitch Do you like it? We've almost finished Star Trek Enterprise.

Mitch

19:03

@Cerberus wiki is not helping me with the species part.

Cerberus

@Mitch Wide coverage?

They must have a lot of cleaning up to do, then.

Mitch

I think we should all go to our spice racks and have a taste test

Cerberus

I don't have tarragon.

Mitch

uh oh...I only have this thing called 'Italian herb mix' with: thyme and rosemary and oregano etc.

It's going to take me awhile to separate

@Cerberus I like it a lot. it's hard scifi where accuracy/realism is important, but also the plots are all about interna-...sorry, interplanetary relations.

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh, dear.

Færd

19:05

I don't think any of those tastes the same when dried.

Cerberus

Spread a sheet.

Throw the mix onto the sheet.

Good luck!

@Mitch OK and I hope it isn't too close to present society/culture?

The AIDS epidemic seems to be past its worst.

Mitch

@Cerberus I only got to about the start of season 3 of Enterprise. It was OK. not terrible. I liked how the did the 'explanation' of the development of some technologies: the transporter, the universal translator, no replicator at all.

Cerberus

Right.

It's not excellent, no.

But at least they don't have holodecks.

Færd

Any time travel junk?

Cerberus

I guess they understood how everybody hated holodeck episodes.

@Færd A few, alas. But not that many.

I'm so glad we agree on this.

Mitch

19:08

@Cerberus hm... hard to tell. It is fiction, so what they make up is only thinly veiled allegory about 'now' sorts of things.

Cerberus

Nor do they have many other 'alternate reality' episodes.

I've done a terrible thing.

Mitch

@Cerberus I never got into TNG.

Færd

@Cerberus Good for the watchers.

Mitch

Yeah the holodeck is like magic inside of magic inside of magic

Færd

@Cerberus What?

Cerberus

19:09

When we finished Voyager, I actually made a spreadsheet counting the percentages of 'alternate reality' episodes.

I feel like a stupid Star Trek nerd.

And I don't even think it's a good series.

Mitch

@Cerberus That is your terrible thing?

Cerberus

@Mitch That was the only thing that that on television when we were young.

Mitch

The only thing? Or the only thing your parents would allow you to watch?

Cerberus

@Færd Yes. At least they got that right. And there are no infuriatingly annoying characters such as Neelix.

Færd

@Cerberus You have no choice but to analyse and respond to your input, no matter how awful it is.

Cerberus

19:11

@Mitch The only thing except various German channels.

@Færd Alas, yes.

Færd

You have some choice in what your input is.

Mitch

@Cerberus You have to have one character for watchers to identify with

SNAP!

Færd

I don't exercise that choice wisely, so no advice from me.

Mitch

Sassy!

Færd

It's not that terrible anyway.

Not as terrible as me watching FRIENDS.

Cerberus

19:12

@Mitch Ouch!

Mitch

@Cerberus German TV seems to cater to a bunch of retirees, with shows about retirees. Or at least the characters are so 'mature' to be retirees

Cerberus

So it was 40%, the episodes where some form of alternate reality was an important plot device.

Mitch

@Cerberus haha

Cerberus

@Mitch It was just that we only had satellite television, and my father aimed the dish at a German satellite because he loves documentaries about WW2.

Mitch

like no one ever identifies with the doctor, or the hot alien chick, or the cowboy fighter pilot from Tennessee

@Cerberus What is it with dads?

Cerberus

19:16

The doctor was nice?

Mitch

Also:

@Cerberus he was a hologram

and was self conscious about that

and a little annoying

but neelix was the nerd

Færd

In Community S03E04 alternate reality is used to the best effect ever. Hilarious comic touch, which arrives at a beautiful conclusion.

Cerberus

@Mitch I have made a spreadsheet detailing 172 episodes of Voyager. Do you think I didn't know that?

Mitch

who still had the manic pixie dreamgirl girlfirend whose life spane was only a few months.

Cerberus

@Færd Not Voyager, I presume?

Færd

19:18

Haha no. It's a different series.

Mitch

@Cerberus I am not trying to tell you how to suck eggs (metaphorically. in real llife I'd just send you a link to a youtube video)

Cerberus

That God we're not real.

Just blips in a pipe.

Mitch

@Færd which one was that?

The trivial pursuits one?

@Cerberus a smoking pipe?

Færd

@Mitch The one where the pizza guy buzzes and Jeff throws a dice to see who should get the door.

Mitch

or a water waste pipe

Cerberus

19:20

@Mitch An Internet pipe.

Færd

It produces six different timelines.

Mitch

@Cerberus oh. electrons

Færd

@Cerberus How does that make you unreal?

Mitch

Færd

Wow. They must have made a concerted effort to get their shit together.

Mitch

19:24

1) toilet coverage - I find this entirely unbelievable. 100% is hardly the case in Europe/US. and going from less than 50% to above 90% is insane. I'm going to be ungracious and say that someone is doctoring the numbers.

@Færd They had to push real hard

Cerberus

@Færd No flesh and blood.

Mitch

@Cerberus Your flesh and blood is really only made of elementary particles

Cerberus

@Mitch I think they're doing something wrong if everything is covered in it.

Mitch

mass is energy

Færd

@Cerberus How is being flesh and blood any more real than being a condensed set of info bits and such?

Mitch

19:25

all is one

Cerberus

@Mitch NOU

Mitch

the great chain of being

Cerberus

@Færd Because I say so?

Færd

OK.

Cerberus

Yay.

Færd

19:26

@Mitch Haha.

Mitch

@Færd That was too easy. Don't let him get away with all that without a fight

@Færd I'm really straining for more puns

Færd

@Mitch OK just for you then.

I find it funny when people say I'm (not) real because this and that.

Cerberus

@Mitch Don't try to hard. If they come, they'll come.

@Færd Which is why I said it.

Færd

What you're trying to say isn't real is your direct experience of self, and the unreal nature you want to ascribe to it is no more than a bunch of thougts.

No thoughts match real direct experience. We are what we are.

Cerberus

I didn't say the blip didn't have an experience of self.

Færd

19:30

You didn't.

Cerberus

If it's chatting like this, it very well may have.

Færd

But you tried to value reality by presenting an image of it: a blip.

Reality has no image.

Images are unreal.

I'm really sick of myself.

Mitch

@Færd Whoa there. Back up. What?

Færd

They're just imaginary.

Mitch

made images are somewhat unreal

but an image that is a reflection, not made by hand, is pretty real

Færd

19:33

I was talking about imagination.

Thoughts.

Mitch

hm...

those are real too

you mean your communication of those thoughts?

Cerberus

@Færd Why?

Why aren't thoughts real?

Nor images?

Færd

@Mitch On their own, they have their reality. But they are not the reality of what they are images of.

The reality of a thing is not in its image. It's in itself.

Faheem Mitha

Having a metaphysical moment, are we?

Færd

If you want to define metaphysics that way.

Mitch

19:36

@FaheemMitha Nope, we're stil discussing the Indian toilet problem

It's just moved on to details

Færd

Somebody unstarred my pun.

Faheem Mitha

Indian toilet problem?

Mitch

yeah. not problems with Indian toilets, but toilet problems in India

Færd

15 mins ago, by Mitch

Cerberus

@Færd True.

Mitch

19:38

it's a fine distinction but there it is

Cerberus

Faheem will love this...

Faheem Mitha

@Færd What flight of fancy is this?

Mitch

It's a flight of fancy by government officials in India is what I say.

Færd

@FaheemMitha I dunno. You tell me.

Faheem Mitha

@Mitch Source?

@Færd That figure would not be out of place in "Nineteen Eighty-Four"

Mitch

19:40

in three years going from 45% to 100% in Gujarat?

Færd

Reminds me of that Slumdog Millionaire scene.

But they did have a toilet there.

Mitch

@FaheemMitha reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/7mm7dq/…

Faheem Mitha

@Færd The dance scene at the railway station?

Mitch

@FaheemMitha The workout scene in the meat locker?

Færd

@FaheemMitha No the one where the boy was locked in a toilet and had to jump in the shit hole to be able to reach this actor and ask him for an autograph.

Faheem Mitha

19:42

@Mitch Oh. I've not actually seen the film.

@Færd I see. Sounds like fun.

"Slumdog Millionaire" is set in Bombay, correct?

Mitch

@FaheemMitha haha... I was giving the scene in Rocky where he uses the side of beef as a punching bag.

Færd

You see, the toilet was mounted on top of a hole, so you took your dump and it would alight in the whole.

I don't remember which city it was.

I watched it only to have something to talk about with this friend of mine who was crazy about it.

Faheem Mitha

@Mitch That's funny. There are people on that thread who actually believe that figure.

They must have had really sheltered lives. And clearly have never been to India.

Færd

That would make for a fantastic improvement speed tho.

You carried on like that, you'd reach the stars in no time.

Faheem Mitha

Apparently Maharashtra went from 56.43% to 95.99%. In three years. Excuse me while I roll on the floor laughing.

I think someone with a sense of humor just made the whole thing up. Anyway.

Mitch

19:47

@FaheemMitha yeah, there are some there who are septical at least

haha..freudian slip

@FaheemMitha I think a lot of low level gov officials made up stuff.

there's a quote...

Færd

There might be some truth to it? And it doesn't say that anyone who didn't have toilets in their homes didn't use toilets. Maybe they used shared ones.

Cerberus

You should always look for the source of a graph, diagram, or figure.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd No.

Cerberus

If none is mentioned, be sceptical.

Færd

True.

Faheem Mitha

19:55

If something this scale was going on, it would be very noticeable.

Færd

Yeah the figures are clearly fictitious.

Faheem Mitha

In India it's mostly about the rich getting richer, and the poor getting poorer.

Mitch

can't find the quote. Thought it was by Quetelet something like "you can set up your experiment, your data features, and methodology with the precision of an eye surgeon, but something something relies on the whim of a petty lowlevel government official"

sounded better in my half memory

Cerberus

The poor are getting richer, too.

Or at least the median income is rising.

Færd

Impressive results on the part of China.

@Cerberus Do you instantly Google these as the subjects come up and fish them out? Or do you look them up in specific places (Wikipedia etc)?

Cerberus

20:12

@Færd I just use Google Images.

Why?

Færd

Nice trick. I didn't use Google Images to get data like that.

Cerberus

Oh, I've always done that.

Mitch

@Færd China has changed a lot in the past 20 years

Cerberus

It's quick because you don't have to visit web pages.

Færd

Good to know it works for that purpose too.

Mitch

20:14

Lots of movement from poor rural areas to the big cities

Cerberus

@Færd And I have various userscripts and bookmarklets so that I can view all images in full size on the same page if I want. Otherwise, you have to click on each image and wait for it to load.

@Mitch But such migration is often forbidden.

It's not very easy.

MetaEd

@Mitch I get "You have already voted, but the voting has been cleared by a moderator"

Faheem Mitha

@Mitch That's well said, whoever said it.

Mitch

@Færd google images is nice. if you pick the right keywords, all you have to do is scan the pictures to see one that is nice

@Cerberus It's easy when the government incentivizes it. which is what they've been doing more recently

Cerberus

Now that urbanites are having too few babies...

Mitch

20:15

Maoism and the sanctity of the common farmer is old news.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Don't believe everything you see in the net. Or anywhere else, for that matter.

Færd

@Cerberus So you don't have to go to the site to get the URL of an image?

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha I believe it's common knowledge.

@Færd Indeed not.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus What is?

Cerberus

Whatever your line referred to.

Mitch

20:16

China is communist only in name (and in keeping the same old old people in the government)

Cerberus

Not entirely.

Faheem Mitha

Again, that Indian graph looks like nonsense to me.

Færd

I think we've established that.

Cerberus

I think they still have affordable healthcare, education, etc. And government-owned or directed big business.

Faheem Mitha

India hasn't changed much since 1990. If anything, it's more unequal. Population is way, way up.

Færd

20:17

It didn't amount to much more than a couple jokes from the start.

Faheem Mitha

Social mobility is virtually zero.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha That isn't relevant to median income.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus It isn't?

Mitch

@Cerberus mmm...not so sure. it's not a welfare state. I don't think the healthcare that you get for free is that good.

Faheem Mitha

China is a bit more believable, but even there, I suspect that graph is wildly inaccurate.

Færd

20:19

@Mitch It's supposed to make you tough and harden your skin.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha No.

> Compared to other countries, income inequality in India is relatively small as measured by Gini coefficient. India had a Gini coefficient of 32.5 in the year 1999- 2000;[9] India's nominal Gini index rose to 36.8 in 2005, while real Gini after tax remained nearly flat at 32.6.[10]

Faheem Mitha

The problem with all stuff is that it's very hard to get accurate data. Particularly in places like India.

Cerberus

Wikipaedia.

Mitch

@FaheemMitha I've been reading things about how social mobility in the US is much less than the other OECD countries (can't remember how it compared to India or China)

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus What is your source? Is this Wikipedia?

Mitch

20:19

@Færd That's not very good for the acupuncture-industrial complex

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha There are people who have studies such problems for decades. They know how to make best-effort estimates.

Mitch

@Cerberus but wikipedia data is questionable.

Faheem Mitha

I don't think India's Gini coefficient is that high, because most people are really poor. But the Gini coefficient isn't some sort of Oracle, anyway.

Mitch

very questionable

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Ok, now that's funny.

I think you're seriously missing the point. Getting good data in India is extremely hard.

Mitch

20:21

@FaheemMitha it's a respected measure (but of course the input data may be problematic)

oh. that's what you're saying

Faheem Mitha

@Mitch It's just one number, at the end of the day. I'm not saying it's a bad measure.

But one number can't possibly hope to capture much of anything.

It's like IQ, another number people think means a lot. Which is doesn't.

Færd

There are ways to estimate the margins of error in studies like that.

Faheem Mitha

And getting income information in India is particularly hard, because so much of the economy is underground. No idea about China.

@Færd Sure, and it helps to have magical powers, too.

Færd

I don't think you could say there has never been a stastical study about the people of India.

Faheem Mitha

I can believe China is much more orderly. It's a pretty totalitarian place.

@Færd Of course there have been.

But one is entitled to look at numbers and exercise a little common sense.

If the numbers look unbelievable, they probably are.

Cerberus

20:24

> Wealth per adult:

India Year End 2000 Average $2,036 Median $498.00

Pakistan Year End 2000 Average $2,399 Median $1,025

India Mid-2016 Average $3,835 Median $608

Pakistan Mid-2016 Average $4,595 Median $1,788

@FaheemMitha Those numbers look quite believable to me.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Hmm. That information is basically important to get.

Cerberus

Any developing country that isn't, like, torn by civil war will experience an increase in median income if average income rises rapidly, even if the former rise is much slower than the latter.

Faheem Mitha

For example, do you know what proportion of India pays taxes? Now, that's a statistic that's easy to get.

Færd

@FaheemMitha If those studies reported their results accompanied with valid estimation of error margins then I tend to trust them more than the feeling an individual gets from their limited experience.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Shrug. Everyone should make their own decisions about what to believe.

Færd

20:26

But I don't know the first thing about India, so I proceed no further.

Faheem Mitha

I'll also just point out that I do have a degree in statistics. So I do know what estimation means.

Cerberus

In other words, even though the rich profit more from economic growth than the poor, and income inaequality rises, the poor generally still profit to some degree.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus That sounds like an article of faith. Also, Reaganomics.

Cerberus

It's just what you see in most studies.

Exceptions are always possible.

Faheem Mitha

In a place rather different from India, namely the United States, it's well established that wages for much of the population have been stagnant for decades.

It's a major bone of contention.

Cerberus

20:28

Only real wages, and that is a completely different situation.

Faheem Mitha

In the US, they actually do have good records, comparatively speaking.

@Cerberus Of course. We're talking real wages.

Cerberus

It's not a developing country with a stable government where average income rises rapidly over a long period of time.

Faheem Mitha

And the rich have been doing rather well over the last few decades, in the US.

@Cerberus India isn't a developing country. That's fantasy. It's a barely keeping up with things country.

Cerberus

I disagree.

Faheem Mitha

The "developing" is just some nonsense that some people came up with to make the general populace feel good about things.

Færd

20:30

@Cerberus The average rose faster than the median in India.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus You really should read some serious Indian press. Try Frontline.

Frontline (magazine)

Frontline is a fortnightly English language magazine published by The Hindu Group of publications from Chennai, India. R Vijaya Sankar is the editor-in-chief of the magazine. As a current affairs magazine, it covers domestic and International news. Frontline gives a prominent place to various issues of development and hindrances in the Indian states. Apart from topics of politics and political economy, it also covers a wide range of topics including Arts, books, cinema, Science and English language. == History == Frontline was first published in December 1984. It was originally intended to be a...

One of the few serious Indian periodicals. I was thinking of subscribing, but haven't yet.

Færd

Care to share some data that would counter those of Cerb and disprove his claim?

Oh you just said it's impossible to gather sensible data on Indians.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Not really, no. Just what I see and hear around me.

@Færd It's very, very, hard.

India is an extremely chaotic place.

Cerberus

@Færd Yes: inaequality is rising.

Færd

@FaheemMitha But I can't build a wide picture based on that.

Faheem Mitha

20:33

But conditions in Indian villages are very very bad. And most of India is the villages.

@Færd I wasn't suggesting you could.

I do talk to poor Indians quite a lot. The stories I hear are very consistent.

It's also worth noting that the current govt is very pro-big business, and very corporate friendly.

Cerberus

Look, you're wrong.

Faheem Mitha

The BJP, I mean.

Cerberus

It's all cities.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus LOL

Those aren't the kinds of people who are going to be address inequality.

Cerberus

Faheem Mitha

20:36

And you can also look at the track record of Modi and the people round him. They are a really nasty bunch.

Cerberus

A 30% increase in 15 years.

Færd

@Cerberus I can discern some things there in a background of people.

Faheem Mitha

Have any of you been following the Aadhaar card business?

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha I know.

@Færd Oh?

@FaheemMitha Yes.

Faheem Mitha

It's very indicative of the kind of people who run India's govt.

Cerberus

20:37

It's pretty bad, not only for privacy, but also for the general functioning of government, food stamps and other stuff in villages not getting distributed.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Among other things. But my point was about attitude.This isn't the behavior of people who care about the poor. This is the behavior of people who care about coercion and control.

Cerberus

I know.

Faheem Mitha

The Finance Minister seems like a particularly horrible specimen.

Cerberus

Even so, most countries have had semi-bad governments all throughout history.

Faheem Mitha

Anyway, things in a place like India don't just happen by themselves. They happen via determined effort. And if the govt isn't going to do anything, it's down to social movements.

Cerberus

20:39

And yet the situation is improving now in most countries.

Including India.

Faheem Mitha

And social movements are difficult in a place with as fractured a society as India.

@Cerberus Again, an article of faith.

Cerberus

No, of observation, study, and analysis.

As good an estimation as it gets.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus I don't see how that is possible, unless you have god-like powers.

Cerberus

You have observational and academic powers.

If you're going to bring in philosophical doubt, then we know nothing and any discussion is pointless.

Mitch

@FaheemMitha I don't believe that

ba dum tiss!

Færd

20:44

I think Faheem is abandoning objective evaluation here by pronouncing it impossible.

He doesn't even say how impossible it is.

If I wanted to evaluate the current situation in my country and the direction it's headed based on the way I felt about it, then I would describe it no more than an earthly hell where everyone's doomed to eternal damnation.

But.. that's not true. Notwithstanding the way I feel about it.

Mitch

OK..let's calm down everybody. Let's get back to discussing something we can all agree about.

Indian toilets

They really got their bowdlerized together

oh?

Cerberus

@Færd Indeed not.

Mitch

someone made that joke already?

oh

Færd

@Mitch That's tish I believe.

Cerberus

But why do you feel so desperate about it? Don't you see some slow progress, despite looming threats?

Mitch

20:47

@Færd my cymbals are getting old

That's not a metaphor for anything

Færd

@Cerberus I don't possess those Godlike powers that enables me to detach from all this chaos and sit back and take averages that smooths any troubles out.

Cerberus

OK.

Mitch

I don't think God has those powers

Færd

The current instability is taking its toll on me. I should be able to recover, but it's hard.

Mitch

He seems pretty angry all the time

Cerberus

20:49

But you do see no Ahmadinejad.

Færd

@Mitch Oh. Sorry.

Cerberus

And you see dropping headscarves.

And rising Internet access.

Mitch

@Cerberus Just being able to pronounce his name is half the job

Færd

Let's not talk about Iran.

Cerberus

OK.

Mitch

20:51

@Cerberus Racy!

Cerberus

We all see threats and worrying developments in our own countries.

Mitch

@Færd Nice. Back to Indian toilets

@Cerberus Oh? Go on..

Færd

@Mitch Man you have constipation.

Cerberus

@Mitch You don't?

Mitch

@Færd or an unnatural interest in other peoples regularity (or lack thereof)

@Cerberus I was asking you

no fair turning it around

Look man I can talk about American poop all day, but I was asking you.

Færd

20:54

So what kinds of toilets do they use in India?

squat toilets?

Cerberus

@Mitch What are you asking, exactly?

Mitch

4 mins ago, by Cerberus

We all see threats and worrying developments in our own countries.

Cerberus

You are asking what threats I see in my country?

Færd

That would be a good question.

Cerberus

Well, many different threats.

Some shared with other countries, such as the rise of social media and its effects, like bubbles, polarisation, superficiality, aggression.

Oh?

Færd

20:58

@Cerberus (I thought you stopped there)

Cerberus

But there are also three groups that I feel are getting a bit more extreme of late.

Ah, haha.

And I think all three are doing so partly under foreign influence.

Færd

How much of the political spectrum do they occupy?

Cerberus

The far right is growing somewhat stronger, partly from an indigenous tradition, partly in a European current, and partly influences by Americanisation.

@Færd So far, relatively small parts.

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