English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Færd

21:00

Not by having them address women as people or whatever.

Cerberus

What kind of situation did you have in mind?

Færd

That doesn't go to the heart of the problem.

Cerberus

Oh, I agree.

Færd

@Cerberus Like, when someone says "Hey woman!" in a contemptuous way.

As if being a woman is a shame.

Cerberus

I think there may be an historico-cultural line Lutheranism → Calvinism → Freudianism → Whorfism.

MetaEd

21:01

@Cerberus You're thinking like a philosopher. Which is fine, but it's a rare thing. What I'm talking about is thinking of women as less than men.

@Færd Sure. And one of the ways to confront people directly is to confront the language they use.

Cerberus

@Færd Right, if it is insulting in some semi-objective way, and if the insulter is trying to abuse the fact that his victim is a woman, then that is deserving of disapproval.

@MetaEd Okay, that's a different thing!

That will be more common even in the West.

Although "different" should not be confused with "inferior".

Færd

@MetaEd The language isn't offesive in and of itself. The insult comes from the circumstances and context, not from the facts. Gender is a fact. How you ascribe values to it is not necessarily a fact.

MetaEd

If women are not thought of as less than, let me just ask if it makes sense to you that, when a man is insulting another man, it commonly takes the form of calling them a woman. What does that say about how that man basically values women?

Cerberus

At any rate, I mentioned Lutheranism → Calvinism → Freudianism → Whorfism, because a belief in words as holy objects and powerful truths independent of context can be observed in all of those movements.

As things absolute.

Mitch

@Cerberus IE langs are the only ones with grammatical gender on nouns. Lots of languages have grammatical noun categories, but I think IE is the only one where the category is gender. maybe some rare ones outside of IE.

Færd

21:06

Arabic has gendered nouns.

Cerberus

@MetaEd It must at least be a reflexion of some context, period, or situation in which a woman is worse or less than a man, in at least one respect.

Færd

So does Hebrew, I guess.

Cerberus

But at some point words change their meanings based on context.

MetaEd

@Cerberus Well, certainly, that's what I'm saying. Many men go to that sort of insult because women are desirable, but they're not equals. They're not quite people, really. Not quite as much as men are.

Mitch

@Færd Oh. Yeah. You just said that.

Cerberus

21:07

@MetaEd Maybe they're only less in a certain respect, just as throwing balls.

Mitch

hm... OK...moving the goal posts...outside of IE and Semitic, there are only sporadic cases of gendered nouns

Cerberus

Depending on context, that insult might point to different things.

MetaEd

@Cerberus Do you seriously think lack of football skills is what a man has in mind when he calls another man a pussy, or a c**t?

Færd

I even think people should be encouraged to address women as respectful women who are not less than men. That counterbalances the insults against women in a better way than to have people address women as persons.

It's complicated though. I don't mean that as a general rule.

Cerberus

For example, using 'gay' as a mild curse word, such as 'that's so gay', doesn't really have much of a homophobic connotation any more in many context. At least if there are no children involved, and if it is known that the speaker is not homophobic, I don't think many people would find that insulting. Meanings change.

Færd

21:09

@Mitch That's interesting. What got into people's heads to call the Moon and the Sun male and female?

Cerberus

@MetaEd What I was saying was that even this depends on context. I don't know.

Mitch

> "Woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied.

Jesus was kind of a jerk to his mom

Færd

Haha.

MetaEd

@Cerberus I just can't imagine that you actually believe that kind of casual bigotry towards women is extremely rare.

Mitch

The International Standard Version bowdlerized it a little:

Cerberus

21:11

Well, we're lucky to be a living in a period where most judges can be women, and monarchs, too!

Mitch

> "How does that concern us, dear lady?" Jesus asked her.

Dear lady

Færd

Good Madame.

Mitch

how polite! What a nice young man. Your little Jesus, he's so ... charismatic. Is he still ... available?

@Færd Madam Charwoman

Cerberus

@MetaEd I don't know about frequency. It's not something that I hear often, but it may be common. My point was just that it needs to be interpreted in context. Without context, it could mean many things. It could be satire. It could be a quotation. It could be a running gag. It could be said by a woman. It could be a nasty insult.

Færd

Being too polite is a kind of misogyny.

Cerberus

21:13

So what we should do is act against insults.

Not against contextless parts of possible insults.

Mitch

@MetaEd considers practicing corner kicks

Cerberus

@Færd Any linguistic utterance can be used as an insult depending on context!

Faerd, sometimes you're so avian.

MetaEd

@Cerberus I think you raise consciousness of the way people have been using language to put women in their place.

Mitch

@Cerberus You... you... person!

Cerberus

sighs

Mitch

21:15

and I mean it to sting!

Cerberus

@Mitch !!! How dare you!!!111oneone

Mitch

apoplexes

MetaEd

And the real goal of the movement to introduce gender neutral language is to trigger conversations like this.

Mitch

turns red

purple even

Cerberus

@MetaEd By forbidding the use of the word 'woman'? Perhaps, but at what cost? And with what proven, practical beneficial effect?

Færd

21:16

@Cerberus Pallid extensive politeness can be a sort of misogyny even if you mean no offense.

Mitch

plaid?

Cerberus

@MetaEd What it also does is trigger Fox satire.

It's fuel to the extreme right.

It drives a wedge through the centre of society, where the 'other' half are traitors, and noöne can remain in the centre.

Færd

@Mitch Pallid, like, insipid.

Educ

Hi

MetaEd

@Cerberus They're representative of the population that wants to conserve and defend traditional attitudes about women.

Cerberus

21:17

So, even if it should have real beneficial effects, the cost is high imo.

Mitch

@Cerberus What's hilarious about it (unintended by FN) is that such a news broadcast would have been on-topic in 1960, and even then would have come across as boorish.

Cerberus

@MetaEd I think the large majority of society, at least here, feel that women should be treated aequally. At the same time, the large majority feel that forbidding certain words without context is terrible.

Educ

Please someone explain to me what does mean latex is that has something to do with latex as miketex and creating document with high quality

Unemploymet Office | Seinfeld | TBS

►

Mitch

@Færd what is it... sorkhiye man az tou, something something tou az man

Færd

@Mitch Yeah, what about it?

Mitch

21:22

@Færd what's the whole line?

Feeds

0

Q: Adjective that means physically felt

I'm looking for an adjective that can be used in an exchange like this: Me: I have a gift for you. Other: Is it the gift of happiness? Me: I was thinking of something much more _____. The blank would be a word that means something directly, explicitly, physically felt. The word visceral comes ...

single-word-requests

Færd

> Let my redness be from you, and your yellowness from me.

Mitch

in persian?

Færd

In Finglish?

Mitch

in roman letters

Færd

21:23

> Sorxie man az to, zardie to az man!

Cerberus

@Educ Latex, the rubbery material.

Mitch

zardieh...that's what I couldn't remember

which one is pallor?

Færd

Where you present at a Charshanbe Souri ceremony?

@Mitch Zardi

Mitch

@Færd Is it that time of year already?

Færd

Well, it's not pallor. It's yellowness.

Mitch

21:24

Holy crap, time flies

pallor is what I've heard it translated as

Færd

@Mitch It's upon us. A couple weeks from now.

Mitch

zard = yellow?

Færd

Yeah.

Mitch

sorkh = ... good skin color?

Færd

It refers to the color of the fire.

Mitch

21:25

red?

Færd

Yep. The color of healthy skin. Exaggerated.

Mitch

blushing?

MetaEd

@Cerberus And I think not only should everyone be treated with equal respect, part of that is using inclusive language.

Færd

@Mitch No, just vigorous.

Cerberus

@Færd It may create an atmosphere of distance, and difference, if that's what you mean?

Mitch

21:26

What's funny about the FN clip, TC talks about offending a small group of people. It's half of everybody.

Cerberus

Not sure I would call that hatred of women, but it can be a bad thing.

Færd

@Mitch It means, Oh fire! Let me inherit your vivacity and leave with you all my weakness.

Mitch

Look man (and I mean that literally)...

dang it, that was such a good intro I forgot the rest

Cerberus

@MetaEd I don't think normal language or this type of language are necessarily any more or less inclusive or exclusive than the other.

Mitch

@Færd I don't think it's a zero sum game

Færd

21:27

@Cerberus It's as if they are less than normal people needy of special treatment. Not hatred, but a sort of belittling.

Mitch

if we all jump over the fire together, we can all get a bit reddish

singed even

Cerberus

@Mitch Well, those who would be 'insulted' by the word 'mankind' are probably a tiny group.

@Færd I suppose it can be belittling, depending on what one does, exactly.

But it's not a big issue.

Mitch

@Cerberus It just sounds a little bit innaccurate, or, like the rapture, leaving a whole heck of a lot of people behind

MetaEd

@Cerberus If a woman asks you to please refer to her as "chairperson", not "chairwoman", what's your reaction?

Cerberus

People are different. Everyone should just treat everyone else with objective respect.

Mitch

21:29

@MetaEd chairs are people too!

Chair lives matter!

Don't sit on me! Literally! Stop it! Stand up for yourself!

Cerberus

@MetaEd I would think she was joking, probably? If not, I would feel insulted.

Mitch

@Cerberus I think torture can really have some positive aspects to it.

Cerberus

I've never met anyone who would partake in this decidedly American practice of Whorffianism. Some are trying to import it here, though.

MetaEd

@Cerberus It does not occur to you that the respectful thing to do is call her what she expressly prefers to be called?

Cerberus

I would try to call her that, of course.

If I thought she was serious.

MetaEd

21:31

But the idea of someone seriously asking for that is offensive?

Cerberus

Which would be like a 0.0% chance here.

@MetaEd It would be insulting to me, yes.

It suggests I am an immoral person.

Mitch

I have to go torture myself. Wait... something about that sounds wrong. I have to go start dinner.

Færd

Haha. Go sit on your chair.

Mitch

@Cerberus Down with Whorf! Up your Sapir!

MetaEd

@Cerberus I don't think it suggests that. But it might be a test of whether you are.

Mitch

21:32

@Cerberus What if you are? At least it'd be accurate.

Cerberus

@Mitch I don't know what to say back!

Færd

@MetaEd That sounds futile. So you fixed chairwoman. What would you do with all the feminine pronouns and all?

Cerberus

@MetaEd How could it not suggest that?

Mitch

@Færd And oppress the chair?

Færd

Or just press it.

Mitch

21:33

Leave an impression of a sort on the chair

Færd

Impress it. Yes.

Cerberus

"Hey, you should change what you're doing." What could be the reason for this request or demand, other than that what I'm doing is immoral?

Mitch

It'll be impressed.

Færd

Chairs are not as impressionable these days though.

Mitch

Depending on the size of your but I don't think it would make much difference

Færd

21:34

They resist in the face of suppression.

Cerberus

Additionally, forcing people to change their idiolect, there's also a message in that like, "your language, this bit of your culture is bad, immoral, and/or inferior to mine".

Mitch

"Stop kicking that dog!' 'How dare you! Are you calling me a dog-kicker?'

MetaEd

@Cerberus That is the only reason you can think of? Your homework assignment, then, is to think of ten reasons why someone might make that request of you, other than that what you're doing is immoral. You being of a philosophical bent I have every confidence you are up to it.

Cerberus

?

Mitch

(for the record, kicking dogs is not generally considered a good thing, unless there is a really good practical reason, of which I am finding it difficult to come up with ... of ... down under

@MetaEd OK, 10 is way too much. THat's just unfair

Cerberus

21:36

How can it not be an accusation, when someone is correcting my language in relation to a moral issue?

MetaEd

@Cerberus The virtue of it being a homework assignment is that you don't get to ask me for the answer :-)

Cerberus

"Stop calling Freddy a fatty" = "it's immoral for you to all Freddy a fatty".

Mitch

Think of it as someone telling you to separate your recyclable paper from your glassware

and your green glass from your brown glass from your clear glass

Cerberus

@MetaEd I don't think you're my schoolmaster.

If you have something to say, then say it.

Færd

It would be different if they politely asked to be called something.

MetaEd

21:38

@Cerberus I'm saying it. I'm saying you are able to think of ten other reasons. Without my help ...

@Færd Well, in my hypothetical conversation they did ask politely.

Cerberus

@Mitch An interesting example. Morality crossing into utility?

Mitch

"Stop calling Freddy a dirty syphilitic necrophiliac"

Am I doing this right?

Færd

But to demand that it's the moral duty of the other person to address them as such and such, that's a bit over the top.

Cerberus

Recycling paper does not affect any person immediately, though.

And morality is mostly between people.

Mitch

and dogs. we don't deserve them

and cats don't deserve us. Really. We're too good to them

Cerberus

21:39

@Mitch Surely you mean 'persons'??

Mitch

@Cerberus If a dog tells me they'd prefer to be referred to as human, I will gladly stop calling them 'pookum-pookum face'

Færd

@Mitch Whoever loves you best, deserves you most.

Cerberus

*huperson, didn't you listen to the video?

MetaEd

@Færd Then it's definitely the dog, not the cats.

Mitch

@Cerberus haha..right. TC is an idiot!

because no one is asking for that

Cerberus

21:41

Who?

MetaEd

TC = Tucker Carlson

Mitch

also, all these 'bad jokes' were done in the 60's

MetaEd

The guy in the video clip.

Færd

@MetaEd The sad thing is that rule is not reciprocal.

Mitch

He's well known for being an ... for having a tenuous grasp of reality

Cerberus

21:43

Oh.

Færd

He's a ...

Cerberus

It concerns me how the far right and the far left are trying to dominate society, and succeeding, to some degree.

Each fuels the other.

The centre is where it's at, yo, dawg, or something.

MetaEd

@Færd right-wing pundit, maybe?

@Cerberus That's essentially a conservative view.

Færd

@MetaEd I wanted to say a model for immoral debate. The type where people always try to cut each other off and best each other and misuse the ignorance of the audience to show they're superior.

Cerberus

The centre is not necessarily conservative?

MetaEd

21:45

Let's keep the center where it is. No reactionary or progressive motion.

Cerberus

The political centre, I mean, or the centre of society.

The centre has been progressive for centuries.

Mitch

@Cerberus The trouble is the far right is saying outrageous things like 'deport all the non-whites' and the far-left is saying outrageous things like 'not all of them'

Cerberus

Hah.

That's not exactly far left.

MetaEd

@Cerberus I'm sure the antebellum South wanted the same.

Cerberus

Okay, I don't know your society that well.

And there have been fluctuations in other countries, too.

MetaEd

21:47

@Cerberus The pre-Civil War South. The slave owning South.

Mitch

@Cerberus haha. it's not that bad. what do the far left say there?

I thought the far-left was 'collectivize!' but that's pretty 19thc

Cerberus

Like, oh, the centre in Nazi Germany (although I would say the centre was oppressed at that time, it had certainly been a little bit more reactionary in the 20s than in the 00s).

@Mitch Communism is dead.

Færd

Socialism isn't.

Cerberus

@MetaEd I also feel that the less polarised a society is, the larger the centre will be (obviously), and the more progressive it will be.

@Færd Indeed not.

So I think polarisation is super bad.

Færd

@Cerberus Some argue that having a rival helps spur you toward progress.

If a large center implies a single-winged polity.

Cerberus

21:53

@MetaEd At any rate, over the past half-century, your political centre has been mostly progressive, too. Blacks got aequal rights. Women got aequal rights. The influence of religion has lessened. Irreligion is spreading (fewer Christians every year). Gays have aequal rights. Etc.

There are of course fluctuations, but, overall, there is progress.

MetaEd

@Cerberus Progress begins with being aware of specific things we have now that ought to be changed, yes?

Cerberus

@Færd Not sure how that would work, exactly? A bipolar rivalry draws attention away from the centre.

@MetaEd Quite possibly, although it could be reactionary as well!

And it's not always clear which direction a certain movement is going.

MetaEd

@Cerberus Undoubtedly.

Cerberus

Nazism was at once progressive and reactionary.

So it could be argued.

Some things new, some things old.

The right isn't always reactionary or conservative.

MetaEd

And the point of people asking to be characterized with gender-neutral language is to create awareness.

Mitch

21:57

@MetaEd It sounds better if you say 'indubitably' and let your monocle fall out

Færd

@Cerberus A monolithic society is not challenged from the inside on its values, so it faces the risk of stagnation.

Cerberus

@MetaEd Yes. But is it the right way?

MetaEd

@Mitch Contrariwise.

Færd

I'm more for gender-symmetrical language than gender-neutral.

Cerberus

@Færd I suppose, but what free society is monolithic?

@Færd There's also something to be said for a gender-blind society.

MetaEd

21:58

@Cerberus Who can say. If you are asking whether it will help.

Mitch

@Færd China

Cerberus

@MetaEd I think it's important, because look at how it fuels the far right.

Mitch

That just randomly popped into my head

Færd

@Cerberus If the center is defined in political terms, then what you said describes a monolithic society.

Cerberus

And how it has other costs.

MetaEd

21:58

@Mitch Burma.

Færd

@Cerberus Why would you choose to be blind to reality?

@Mitch I suppose.

Mitch

@MetaEd hm... they're small enough to be monolithi.

Cerberus

@Færd I'm not entirely sure what you mean? I didn't mean a society where there are no left and right at all, but rather one where the flanks don't take over society entirely.

Mitch

China pretends to be monolithic (and in some ways tends to be) but there are lots of subcultures they they try to ignore

MetaEd

Monty Python em: "Burma!"

►

Cerberus

22:00

@Færd As in, when I am in a meeting with people, I'm not even thinking about what genders they are. I'm just talking to them as people.

Færd

@Cerberus On which side is the center? Could you please define what the center is?

Mitch

@MetaEd haha i used to watch those as a kid at 2am (the only time PBS would put them on). I can't remember a thing about them

Cerberus

@Færd The centre is defined as that part between left and right politically?

Færd

@Cerberus That's preferred of course, if gender is irrelevant in that situation.

Cerberus

@Færd But language politics don't exactly achieve that—on the contrary.

Mitch

22:01

I think we should let the women speak...

crickets

Oh

Jesus would just yell at them anyway

Cerberus

So I'm hesitant between "accept and appreciate the differences, with both being aequal", and "try not to see any difference at all, as much as possible".

Mitch

What kind of son would treat his mother that way

Færd

@Cerberus Maybe language could accommodate for both types of situations?

Cerberus

Language politics are certainly incompatible with the latter.

Færd

@Cerberus So a large center would eclipse the eccentric political ideas?

Mitch

22:04

all those years of making him breakfast, cleaning up after him, and oh, just this once she asks for just a tiny little miracle? And he goes all apeshit? He almost ruined the wedding with his little tantrum

And then the petulant little bastard goes ahead and does it.

Christ.

I mean it.

Cerberus

@Færd Not necessarily eclipse, but be a balancing, moderating force.

Mitch

Language politics? You should hear about the Acht Gaeilige

of course the problem is Northern Ireland

talk about torture

Cerberus

@Mitch As in the stuff we've been talking about.

@Mitch Looks like Northern Ireland is going to blow up Brexit!

Færd

I wish I could continue. But I'm straining to keep my chin up.

See y'all later.

MetaEd

@Mitch Have you ever read the stories of Jesus as a boy?

Færd

22:09

(I mean I'm trying not to nod off, if that wasn't clear)

MetaEd

It's like trying to raise Superboy.

Cerberus

@Færd Sleep well.

MetaEd

@Mitch Joseph to Mary: "Don't let him go outside, because those who annoy him end up dead."

Cerberus

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… So it seems the Sino-Tibetan, Turkic, Uralic, and Austronesian families have no genders. But the other big families normally do.

Bengali, Persian, and English are big Indo-European exceptions.

Mitch

22:36

@MetaEd charlie X.

He just needs a woman that understands him. Not his mom.

She was a saint. Literally

Wait. Doubly metaphorically

@MetaEd are you talking about that...Harry Potter stuff?

MetaEd

22:57

@Mitch Yes!

I mean Yes Charlie X yes.

SmokeDetector

23:22

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer, pattern-matching website in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer: the importance to use or the importance of using? by D. Noble on english.SE

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…