English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Færd

00:00

Your best bet is to go and ask the people whether they consider themselves Middle Eastern or not.

Iraqis would, for sure.

Cerberus

I use my language according to its own conventions, not to some other language's conventions.

Maybe the people in China call the period around the birth of Christ the Middle Ages.

But I won't.

Færd

People get to name the regions they inhabit.

Cerberus

In Dutch media, you will find "Middle East" used for "Near East" as well.

But I would consider it a mistake, possibly an Americanism.

Or an Anglicism. I don't know.

Færd

Well, turns out it's not.

Cerberus

@Færd In their own language, sure. But not in someone else's language.

Færd

00:04

But we need to understand each other when we want to talk about things.

Cerberus

So you're saying Iraqi's imported this mistake from English?

Or is it older?

@Færd As always, we have translators for that...

Færd

@Cerberus I don't know about it's origins. And I don't concede that it's a mistake.

Cerberus

If you can find a valid reason and a long tradition, I may concede it's not a mistake.

Færd

It surely has a Western origin. Somehow or other.

Whose east are we anyway.

Cerberus

And it's a mistake in the European tradition...

Færd

00:07

Do you speak for all Europe?

Cerberus

@Færd Well, you could say the important continents are Africa and Eurasia. And you could draw a line north from the northern part of the east-African coast.

To divide the known world in twain. Known as it was in ancient times.

@Færd At least for Dutch and English, I feel confident enough.

Færd

Let's conjure some of our English apparitions.

I'm not sure whether that could prove anything though.

Forget it.

I'm Middle Eastern, because I live at the CENTER OF THE EASTERN WORLD. And I won't have it otherwise!

Cerberus

I think the origin of the terms 'Near East' and 'Middle East' and 'Far East' is established beyond doubt, if one wishes to use those terms. And also that they make some sort of sense as a system.

@Færd Then you are not Middle Eastern, but Middle!

Færd

Edited.

Cerberus

Well, I think your country is traditionally called Middle Eastern, so, sure.

Færd

00:13

@Cerberus Be that as it may, I'm not sure we have to stick to the original meanings if the dominant meanings in the political and geographical discourse of today implies otherwise.

Cerberus

I think the Far East usually begins with India.

@Færd I think we do if otherwise the terms would be counter-intuitive and conflicting with tradition. A living tradition.

Don't give in to popularity contests as an argument!

Færd

There are many living traditions.

Cerberus

It's counter-intuitive and weird to have a Middle East but no Near East, and to use the term Middle East where traditionally the logical term Near East was used, and which is still used by plenty of people.

Færd

@Cerberus I don't see significant differences between what has been popular in the recent past and what in the distant past. Your way of reasoning cuts both ways.

Names don't evolve so logically.

Cerberus

A long tradition is venerable. And sticking with it prevents confusion and conflicting usage.

Færd

00:17

They call aboriginal Americans Indians. How 'bout that.

I don't though.

Cerberus

And, in this case, traditional usage is logical, while this recent deviation is very illogical.

@Færd Had I lived in the 16th century, I would certainly have objected to that!

Færd

But it's a tradition with a long history now.

Cerberus

So maybe I'll give up my battle against wrong use of 'Middle East' in a century or two. But not today.

Færd

And it makes zero sense.

Cerberus

At least it isn't a break with tradition.

Færd

00:19

Hahahahaha

Cerberus

There was no more logical word in use before 'Indians' was applied.

Færd

You crack me up!

I don't mean to disrespect you. Just laughing.

Cerberus

'Indians' didn't start to replace a more logical 'Americans' around the 17th century, or something.

But, yes, of course it's wildly inconsistent, and confusing.

Færd

But it was based on the fallacy that that land was India.

Cerberus

Of course.

Færd

00:21

So it was a breach from the tradition that only the people of India got to be called Indians.

Cerberus

But the mistake is at least understandable. And they had no other word at the time.

3 mins ago, by Cerberus

@Færd Had I lived in the 16th century, I would certainly have objected to that!

Færd

I don't constrain myself to now.

skullpatrol

Also when people say "Asians" they mean "Orientals."

Cerberus

You're a multi-temporal being?

Færd

In a way!

Cerberus

00:23

@skullpatrol Both of those words can be used in many ways!

skullpatrol

True.

Faheem Mitha

Hi folks.

skullpatrol

Hello.

Faheem Mitha

So, linguistic geography discussions?

Hi @skullpatrol.

Færd

Hello.

Faheem Mitha

00:31

I suspect terms like Middle East are European inventions.

Like many other things.

Færd

@FaheemMitha Add history too.

@FaheemMitha Me too.

Faheem Mitha

Iran, for example, is not more East of something than it is West of something.

@Færd I thought you would.

Hi @Færd. Still awake?

Færd

Cerb suggested another explanation:

25 mins ago, by Cerberus

@Færd Well, you could say the important continents are Africa and Eurasia. And you could draw a line north from the northern part of the east-African coast.

Faheem Mitha

I woke up, and have been unable to get back to sleep.

Færd

I don't think it's correct.

@FaheemMitha Yeah.

I slept extensively during the day.

I can't sleeo now.

Faheem Mitha

00:33

@Færd That happens to me too.

@Færd What isn't?

Færd

That we are called Easterners because we are east of Africa.

But I don't know.

Cerberus

I'm just saying the division kind of makes sense even if you don't place Europe at the centre of the world.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Ah. Well, like I said, I suspect all this terminology comes from Europe, in any case.

Cerberus

But rather the eastern coastline of the Mediterranean (which is also a continuation, in a way, of the eastern coast of Africa)'.

Faheem Mitha

And actually would not be that hard to establish, probably.

Færd

00:35

@Cerberus OK.

Yeah, I guess it's not too hard to see into the origins of these terms.

Faheem Mitha

Since Europeans consider that a country doesn't exist till they name it, and, preferably rape it for a while.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Yes, the terminology is European.

Færd

@FaheemMitha :))

Faheem Mitha

Well, historically, anyway.

Cerberus

But it might as well have been e.g. Syriac or Egyptian: it would make sense to them.

Faheem Mitha

00:36

I suppose it's possible even for Europe to grow up.

Cerberus

Whereas it wouldn't make sense for e.g. India.

@FaheemMitha gasp Who are you??

Ebla

Ebla (Arabic: إبلا‎, modern: تل مرديخ, Tell Mardikh), was one of the earliest kingdoms in Syria. Its remains constitute a tell located about 55 km (34 mi) southwest of Aleppo near the village of Mardikh. Ebla was an important center throughout the third millennium BC and in the first half of the second millennium BC. Its discovery proved the Levant was a center of ancient, centralized civilization equal to Egypt and Mesopotamia, and ruled out the view that the latter two were the only important centers in the Near East during the early Bronze Age. The first Eblaite kingdom has been described as...

Faheem Mitha

India is generally considered to be part of the East too.

Cerberus

@Færd Look, I happened to be reading this article, where Near East is used properly.

Which is not rare at all, thankfully.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus What?

Cerberus

1 min ago, by Faheem Mitha

I suppose it's possible even for Europe to grow up.

I'm not used to your saying things like this!

Faheem Mitha

00:38

But I don't think it's generally considered to be part of the Middle East.

Cerberus

Indeed not.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Oh. Well, I certainly think things like that.

Cerberus

The Middle East is more like Iran and Afghanistan.

Faheem Mitha

I don't necessarily say everything I think.

Cerberus

phew

Faheem Mitha

00:40

@Cerberus Well, Iran, anyway.

I don't think these arbitrary labels are worth giving much thought to.

They are just convenient for people who want to slice up the world and put it in boxes.

Færd

@Cerberus Now that you're so staunchly adhering to your European traditions, let me go and find some other non-Eurocentric terminology in accordance with an ages-old tradition of my homeland.

But I'm too shiftless to do that, alas.

Faheem Mitha

It's really just one world. People ought to try to remember that.

Per Carl Sagan's "pale blue dot" passage, which someone referred me to recently, possibly here.

Færd

You need to name different regions differently. Or you'll get lost.

Only it doesn't have to be X-centric.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd I suppose.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Then better not use them at all.

Faheem Mitha

00:45

@Færd What makes you think there is any such terminology?

@Cerberus I increasingly try not to.

Cerberus

@Færd I'd love to hear such a tradition! But it should be noted that the wrong use of Middle East is also Western.

@FaheemMitha Good, good.

Faheem Mitha

E.g. terms like Left and Right. Increasingly they don't strike me as useful or even very meaningful.

Færd

@FaheemMitha We had geographers of our own, I suppose.

Cerberus

I actually think I don't use those terms very much.

Faheem Mitha

Though everyone uses them. In political discourse, I mean.

@Cerberus Which terms?

Cerberus

00:46

I normally say e.g. Muslim countries, East Asia, the Indian Subcontinent, when speaking of regions.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Of course. But did they try to name the world?

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Near East etc.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Ah, right.

Cerberus

Whichever term seems most appropriate.

Ultimately it doesn't matter, of course.

Faheem Mitha

I guess I use the term Middle East sometimes.

Færd

00:47

@FaheemMitha At least the nearby regions the did. I was talking about Asia.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd ok

Cerberus

I just hate novel inconsistencies that clash with other terms that are still in use.

I think Asia Minor is a cute term, though, as in Magna Graecia.

Faheem Mitha

When people use terms like Middle East they often just mean Arab countries.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Arab is also ambiguous...

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Probably another European construction.

Cerberus

00:49

@FaheemMitha No, why?

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Have you read Edward Said's "Orientalism"? I haven't.

Færd

@FaheemMitha Partly because many are ignorant of the fact that Iranians don't all speak Arabic.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Ok. That was just speculation.

@Færd For example. Yes.

Færd

@Cerberus How so?

Cerberus

Arab can mean of the Arabic paeninsula, or of the Arab-speaking cultural region.

Faheem Mitha

00:50

I wonder how many Americans would disagree with the statement - Iran is an Arab country. Someone should do a poll.

Færd

@Cerberus Ah.

Cerberus

You would usually say Arabic for the paeninsula and Arab for the language, I think, but still.

There is plenty of room for confusion.

@Færd I don't believe anyone I know would think people spoke Arabic in Iran.

Færd

@Cerberus I never saw the language called Arab.

Cerberus

Right, but as in, Arab countries?

What are those?

skullpatrol

Arabia

Faheem Mitha

00:52

@Cerberus I see the word Arab is actually quite old - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_(etymology)

Færd

@Cerberus Oh many commoners do all the time.

Cerberus

>
noun
1.
a member of a Semitic people inhabiting Arabia and other countries of the Middle East.
2.
a member of any Arabic-speaking people.
3.
Arabian horse.
4.
Also called Arabber [ey-rab-er] (Show IPA). Sometimes Offensive. a street peddler.
5.
Archaic: Sometimes Offensive. street arab.

adjective
6.
of or relating to Arabs.
7.
Arabian.
8.
Arabic.

Look how confusing.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus You must have an unusually literate social circle.

Cerberus

Not especially? Just educated.

Maybe I'm overestimating some people.

Faheem Mitha

Anyway, Arab is definitely not a European word.

Cerberus

00:53

It's like thinking that Turks speak Arabic.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus I'm sure lots of people would be willing to believe that too.

Cerberus

Well, I don't know those people.

Faheem Mitha

I think ignorance about other countries is probably quite extreme internationally.

My own knowledge is extremely sketchy, for example.

Cerberus

Quite possibly, but surely not among your friends and family!

Faheem Mitha

Though knowing stuff, especially stuff not relevant to ones survival, isn't exactly a priority for most people.

@Cerberus Hmm.

Mitch

00:55

@Færd That map is not appropraite for 'asia' (its label) or 'the orient' (which includes much more)

Faheem Mitha

People I know from universities are usually quite knowledgeable. But outside that, no.

Færd

@Cerberus The first two senses reveal that Arab is an umbrella word for some people speaking Arabic. They (the two senses) differ in their extents.

Faheem Mitha

Higher education is worth something, I think. At least, such has been my experience.

Færd

@Mitch OK.

It just matched my notion.

Mitch

Here's the more important question... is Morocco in the Near East? If not what is its label (for arguments sake I'm going to not allow 'Maghreb').

It was part of the ottoman empire at some point (I'm sure!)

Færd

00:58

I don;t know about Morocco.

Mitch

@Færd I'd mostly agree with you except I wouldn't include India

Færd

Yeah.

Mitch

I guess 'prient' = 'east asia' for us

but I realize that 'orient' is much more than that

Are you familiar with 'Orientalism' by Edward Said?

Færd

@Mitch Is that a word?

@Mitch Nope.

Cerberus

@Færd Yes, but there are more senses...

Faheem Mitha

00:59

@Mitch I mentioned that here 20 minutes ago.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…