English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

CowperKettle

02:23

I wrote a poem on the fourth anniversary of the death of the Heavenly Hundred

Feeds

03:48

0

Q: What's a list of different words u can use instead of series, trilogy, duo (duet)?

I'm looking for the right word to describe my series, without necessarily using the "series". Any u can think of please please write and send them in.

Færd

04:01

This newly-built eyesore has practically destroyed the beautiful view I had from the windows of my living room.

Now the only thing I need is for the other old building (on the left) to be leveled and for another high rise to grow in its stead.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd As eyesores go, it actually doesn't look that bad. But commiserations about the loss of your view.

What city is this?

Færd

Compared to what it replaced, it's ugly as hell.

But thanks. :)

Tehran.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Right. I knew you were in Iran, but wasn't sure if it was Teheran. If that's what ugly buildings look like where you are, you're doing better than a lot of places. You should see what kinds of buildings they build here.

Ugly and unsafe.

Færd

I guess you're judgnig a book by its cover.

Faheem Mitha

I should post a view from where we are. It's appalling.

@Færd Um, I don't follow.

If you mean the building, what criterion should I use?

Færd

04:06

I mean, it's as if you're implying that the building is safe probably.

@FaheemMitha On which level do you live?

I'd be content with a bit of the sky, as a last resort.

If I don't even have that, then I'm out of that place.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Hmm, maybe I was implying that. If so, I withdraw it. Are you saying it isn't safe?

@Færd I'm on the second floor of a two storey building.

There's a terrace above us.

Færd

@FaheemMitha Possibly. They don't really observe safety measures.

Not always.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Over here they rarely do.

Then again, it's India. Not surprising.

I have no idea how Iran compares.

Færd

Which city do you live in?

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Bombay.

Færd

04:10

Ah, I see.

@FaheemMitha Based in the population (growth), it's indeed no surprise.

Faheem Mitha

I hope for the sake of the people of Iran that the building industry isn't as corrupt and insane as India's is.

@Færd What isn't?

Færd

@FaheemMitha Well, we had an earthquake a few months back; you prolly heard about it.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Actually, no. But I'm not good at following world news.

Færd

All the buildings that the government had built for people were leveled to the ground.

The earthquake was in the western parts of Iran. In Kurdistan.

@FaheemMitha That safety measures are overlooked.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Oh, ok. I don't know if it is about population.

@Færd So they were poorly built? Is that what one should conclude?

Færd

04:13

@FaheemMitha Surely high demand makes it easier for constructors to forgo those standards?

@FaheemMitha Yeah.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd It's about corruption and lawlessness. Both major features of India.

The large population might indirectly factor in. I don't know.

There aren't that many populous countries to compare it to.

Færd

@FaheemMitha Alas.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Indeed.

Færd

But you're not at all alone in that, if it makes you feel any better.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd You mean internationally?

And you mean the corruption and lawlessness, I assume.

Færd

04:16

@FaheemMitha Yeah, but I was mainly thinking about corruption and lawlessness in Iran.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Is there a lot of corruption and lawlessness in Iran?

Færd

That's a broad question. In short, yes.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd But not a hard one to answer. And sorry to hear that.

And just to clarify the above comment - I don't know if a large population implies corruption and lawlessness. It might. I don't know how well understood these issues are.

Certain the countries that are in good shape are all much smaller than India. Western Europe, Japan, places like that.

Færd

I understand.

Faheem Mitha

Though Japan does have a relatively large population.

Færd

04:22

But when you're in hardship or crisis, larger population could make it way worse.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Yes, it would.

A population are large as India is a problem by definition.

No real upside, unless you're a pure capitalist, and rejoice in the large labor pool.

But those people are lunatics.

Færd

And your population is on the rise at a relatively fast pace too.

Relatively to China, at least.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Yes, it is. Though I don't track the statistics.

And of course that is very bad.

Færd

Some main policymakers in Iran, including the Supreme Leader himself, had the intention to double the population of Iran.

They are really upset with the downward trend of our population growth.

Faheem Mitha

I think it's been sort of levelling off in recent decades, but still increasing fast.

@Færd I thought Iran was quite populous.

Færd

04:27

Yeah, 70-80 million.

They wanted about 150 soon, as the rumors go.

Maybe even officially stated. It didn't get to its bottom.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd That's kind of nuts.

Færd

Yeah, especially when you consider our water shortage and stiff.

Faheem Mitha

India has a lot of young people. And they don't seem to see anything wrong with having babies. Bless their addled little hearts.

@Færd That's a problem everywhere. Isn't much of Iran desert country?

And I know it's a big country, relatively speaking, but still...

Færd

Then again, with the current state of affairs, we will have a large old-to-young proportion in a few decades.

I don't think the solution is to ever have more babies though.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd I agree. It isn't.

Færd

04:33

@FaheemMitha Yes.

We're retreating from the growing deserts on a daily basis.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd The deserts are growing? Yikes.

Færd

I have a vague idea that you're better off than us in terms of water supplies.

Faheem Mitha

What rationale does your govt give for wanting to so enormously increase the population?

Færd

Yeah.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Possibly in absolute terms. But there is enormous population pressure here, as you can imagine.

The Bombay area is particularly bad.

Færd

04:35

@FaheemMitha On the surface, that our population is growing older and older on average.

But they also fear the steady increase in our Sunni populations too, I think.

Faheem Mitha

All poor reasons.

Færd

Shiites are not as willing to procreate as Sunnis are.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Really? Why?

Færd

And they think that larger population mean stronger resistance against foreign pressure.

Stronger military base.

Etc.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd That's debatable.

Færd

04:39

@FaheemMitha For starters, there are many Sunnis who live in poorer or less developed areas.

Faheem Mitha

If there isn't enough food to go around, a larger population isn't helping anyone.

Færd

Urban people tend to moderate the number of their offspring more strictly.

@FaheemMitha Yeah.

Faheem Mitha

They should focus on things like education, particularly female education. And also ecological stuff. Clean air, clean water.

Is Teheran water potable?

Færd

@FaheemMitha But they have belief in God or whatever, that He will help them. I dunno.

I think the main guys are that religious.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd lol

Færd

04:41

@FaheemMitha We have huge dams near us.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd That doesn't answer the question.

Færd

So what do you mean?

Faheem Mitha

To be clear, potable means safe to drink. Without additional treatment.

Færd

Oh, I read it portable.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Heh

Færd

04:42

Yes, basically our water is not half bad.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd So everyone drinks water direct from the tap?

Færd

In Tehran, yes.

And the last thing you'd want to know is that there's a water mafia that benefits from people consuming and using more and more water.

Whereas we're wasting too much water as is.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Well, that's good. You're doing better than Bombay, at least.

@Færd Really? That's strange.

Færd

Grapevine news. But that'd be no surprise to me.

Faheem Mitha

Hmm.

b_jonas

09:14

What's the word for a raised floor that divides only part of a room vertically, not all of it? I'm sure there was a word for it, but can't find it.

It's sometimes used in bedrooms with a bed or mattress on top and a desk on bottom, where neither the top and bottom area are very tall, but since you mostly lie down in the bed on top and sit at the desk on the bottom it doesn't matter.

Also used outside of homes, such as in libraries and other storage spaces.

Feeds

09:58

0

Q: the correct term for the killing of an entire species

in research of this word, I don't believe there is an exact word. But I'm looking for a word with the suffix "-cide" at the end. If we go by other words in a similar formate like genocide (Geno being greek for race) then it's possible it would be: eídoscide (Eidos being greek for species). The co...

single-word-requests terminology

Xanne

11:24

@b_jones "loft" is one word.

b_jonas

12:08

@Xanne That's not the word I'm looking for, but thanks.

Feeds

12:19

-1

Q: Describe a personality

What is one word for a person who does everything at extreme levels (mostly positive)? It is for describing a person's character that whatever he has done, he was very much dedicated, indulged and at extreme point.

single-word-requests adjectives

Feeds

13:12

0

Q: Word Choice: stationary and non-stationary VS constant and variable

I have a signal or graph in which: i) the value of the signal fluctuates HIGHLY in some regions (marked using green color rectangle) and ii) the value of the signal fluctuates MINIMALLY in some regions (marked using red color rectangle) What should I call those regions? Curre...

single-word-requests word-choice grammar word-usage

Robusto

14:24

@tchrist: Comment: "Lindo paisaje." Reply: "La verdad que si." (Possibly ... que sí?) I think the reply would be translated as "That's the truth" or, more colloquially, "You know it" or "You got that right," but I'm wondering how the grammar works there. Thoughts?

tchrist

@Robusto Well, que sí is an affirmative response in and of itself.

Robusto

Yeah, I see it in constructions like Él dije que sí etc.

tchrist

Claro que sí. Verdad que sí.

Pues la verdad es que sí he pensado en lo mismo.

All those things.

Robusto

So I should really just think of que sí as an affirmation tag.

tchrist

Yep.

Robusto

14:28

"That's true, yes."

tchrist

And que no goes the other way.

Robusto

Sí.

Gracias, amigo.

tchrist

I read this yesterday, linked to from a Spanish Language question:

eldiario.es/zonacritica/Solo-tilde-nostalgia_6_601299895.html

> ¿Y cómo sé yo que se refiere a una salida de emergencia y no a una mujer con ganas de mambo? Porque está en lo alto de una puerta.

That made me laugh.

But here at the end is the all-important line:

> Que la relación entre cómo se pronuncian las palabras y cómo se escriben sea transparente y que el sistema ortográfico resulte lo más racional y usable posible para todos no es solo una cuestión de estética o de obediencia a una norma. Es una forma de justicia social que construimos entre todos los hablantes.

If only that could be said in English!

Or rather, that it could be said of English.

Robusto

Hahaha, nice image una mujer con ganas de mambo.

tchrist

"Que la relación entre cómo se pronuncian las palabras y cómo se escriben sea transparente y que el sistema ortográfico resulte lo más racional y usable posible para todos" is frankly the opposite of English.

Robusto

14:34

@tchrist Yes and no. I've thought about this at some length, with no real conclusion.

tchrist

Lawler's phonemic alphabet could work, but we don't have typewriters for it and we'd have trouble making the arrhotics put in their RRRRRRs.

Robusto

Although I will say that I don't believe Spanish's transparent orthography makes it any less easy to read.

tchrist

The Italians have gotten rid of their "silent h's" that the rest of us even Spanish all have kept from Latin, so that we remember where the word came from.

honor, horrible, hache.

Robusto

@tchrist I was thinking the other day that linguistics pays no attention at all to expressive intonation and modulation.

@tchrist Or the French circumflex.

tchrist

The circumflex in French is mostly for the e, where it is pronounced the same as if it had a grave. And of course, it represents an ancient, alternate pedigree.

Robusto

14:39

I see it on the o as well.

tchrist

I said mostly.

You wouldn't want to confuse a bête noire with Black Betty, and the circumflex lets your brain supply bestia negra as needed.

fête and fiesta.

Robusto

Sí.

tchrist

hôpital is really just hospital.

la côte azure is really la costa azul.

And fruits de la forêt are just frutos del bosque.

But don't ask me why it's frutos there not frutas. It just is.

It’s frutos secos for raisins and nuts and such.

A pâté is just some sort of pasta. :)

Robusto

Speaking of food, I find it difficult to understand how the French aren't all 200 kilos, what with the rich foods they eat.

Mar 19 '11 at 15:09, by Robusto

@Fx — I will relate to you a true story. Some years ago I was shooting a TV spot in Sarlat-la-Caneda. The production company couldn't find a caterer that would go out that far into the sticks, so they found some guy who said he knew how to cook. He made a dish with chicken livers. I hate chicken livers, but I was hungry so I ate them. And I went back for seconds. And would have gone back for thirds but they were gone.

tchrist

portion control

2

Q: How do I use the word "bow" in a specific sentence?

How do you pronounce the word "bow" in the following sentence: I set my bow in the clouds to serve as a sign of my covenant between me and the earth. Is it bow as bowtie or bow as bowing to a King?

pronunciation

Armando should have just translated that into Spanish to find the answer. So I did that for him.

Or rather, he should have looked up the verse in a Spanish bible.

> Mi arco pondré en las nubes, el cual será por señal de convenio entre mí y la tierra.

> Arcum meum ponam in nubibus et erit signum foederis inter me et inter terram.

> Ic sette minne renboᵹan [L. arcum meum] on wolcnum.

@Robusto Do you happen to know what the infinitive is for Old English Æteowþ? I don’t think it’s ateon, but I could be wrong.

Are bow as in bow-tie versus bow as in bowing to the king better considered homographs or heteronyms?

@Gasparo Back so soon?

Gasparo

15:04

@tchrist Yeah, lol.

tchrist

Are you a friendly ghost?

Robusto

@tchrist Not offhand. I can try to find it later, but I'm off on my ride now. ¡Hasta luego!

tchrist

@Robusto Thanks!

Gasparo

@tchrist Yes. You can call me Jasper, Kaspar, Gaspard, Gasparo, or Gaspar in Dutch, German, French, Italian, and Spanish respectively.

tchrist

15:19

@Gasparo But you don't know any of those languages, so of what use would it be to call in them?

Faheem Mitha

@Færd I read on the net that Iran has compulsory military service for 2 years. What is the public perception of that?

I'm really happy Indian does not have any such rule.

But not for women, which seems discriminatory.

According to Wikipedia, "Before the 1979 Iranian Revolution, both men and women were conscripted. Post-revolution, the law changed and women were no longer subject to conscription. However, some continue to serve as volunteers."

So the Shah was a brutal dictator, but at least a brutal dictator with a non-sexist military service policy.

@Robusto Maybe the wine is an aid to digestion? (From the Department of Wild and Unsupported Speculation.)

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

15:48

@skullpatrol I did.

Does anyone remember the episode of The Brady Bunch where Greg screws himself over with the nuance of language and meaning?

marcellothearcane

18:26

Where does prefixing punctuation with a space come from?

Typically non-native users, I wonder if a particular language has this, which is carried over..

Feeds

19:20

0

Q: Is there a word for someone who makes people cry?

Someone who has made other people cry more than once.

single-word-requests

M.A.R.

21:11

@FaheemMitha I don't think his age was better. He was a loser.

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. His age?

M.A.R.

But, like all revolutions, this one tried to change things for the better.

Faheem Mitha

I'm obviously not defending the Shah. He sounds awful. Not that I know anything about him, really.

M.A.R.

It succeeds on some parts, fails on others

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Which one? The Islamic Revolution?

M.A.R.

21:13

@FaheemMitha yup

Faheem Mitha

And anyway, dictators are bad by definition. As are monarchies.

@M.A.R. Hmm. Anyway, my point was just that forcing men to serve and not women is discrimatory.

Not much of an observation, really.

M.A.R.

I don't see a reason to have a strong feeling for or against it anymore, and that's not necessarily a good thing.

@FaheemMitha right. But there has always been this subculture of women in the kitchen in Islamic countries

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Not just Islamic countries.

M.A.R.

Whether or not it has to do with Islam, or the real Islam, teachings of the prophet, I don't know

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. I'm in favor of equal opportunity torture. :-)

Female education in lots of places is abysmally low. Asia in general does quite poorly, I think.

Asia might be worse.

M.A.R.

21:17

West Asia sucks at most things the rest of the world is good at

Damn you, oil

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. West Asia?

You mean like the Middle East?

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha The middle East and those mini countries up there

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. ok

M.A.R.

I could eat them for lunch. So tiny. So cute.

And so rich in history

Much more than 'Murica fersher

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. They would be indigestible.

M.A.R.

21:19

I sometimes wonder how long it will take for communication to effectively remove borders

But maybe Facebook will succeed in tearing apart the internet and that won't happen

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Let's hope the internet survives.

I'm rooting for it.

M.A.R.

Ha, with so many nuclear warheads, let's hope the humanity survives

If a nuclear war doesn't break out in 50 or so years, we'll probably grow up

And use them to kill aliens

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Yes, let's hope. I'm reliably informed that a nuclear war would be quite unpleasant.

Though the US military does not seem to have got that memo.

@M.A.R. You've been watching too many Hollywood movies. :-)

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha it's funny that everyone can have nukes except us

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. And I think that's overly optimistic. Sorry.

@M.A.R. I know. It's nuts.

M.A.R.

21:27

@FaheemMitha if you look back at the past 50 years and what have been achieved since then,

Faheem Mitha

Though when you say us, you mean your govt. Do you feel your govt represents you? I don't feel the Indian govt represents me. They are a bunch of idiots and low-lifes. E.g. the current PM.

M.A.R.

And the fact that everything is accelerating, I don't think that's too optimistic

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Small positive changes.

@M.A.R. Anything is possible, I suppose. It's hard to predict the future.

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha I think you need to come closer a bit

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Hmm?

M.A.R.

21:28

Of course it's few positive changes from the moon

Small, even

Faheem Mitha

Everything is relative. But overall little progress has been made in humanity's major problems.

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha it doesn't represent me, but it's not as alien as other governments. I rather have it defend me by defending itself than be defenseless

Faheem Mitha

If you want a symbol of the world's problems, look at the Israel Palestian conflict.

@M.A.R. Fair enough.

M.A.R.

I personally wouldn't mind strangling some of the governors.

</ exaggeration>

Maybe.

Faheem Mitha

Every time I read about the events of the foundation of Israel, the whole thing is like a really vivid bad dream.

It's hard to believe all that stuff really happened. And it's not surprising the fallout has been so bad.

M.A.R.

21:31

@FaheemMitha you can say that again

Faheem Mitha

Speaking as someone who has no personal stake in the issue whatsoever.

M.A.R.

And anything about sensitive subjects is dismissed as some bad ism, so the peeps that should can't effectively discuss it.

Like me discussing @Tone p.o.e.t.s dots

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. governors?

@M.A.R. are you and @Færd the only Iranians here?

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha I wanted to type "government officials" but felt too lazy

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. ah

BTW, both you and @Færd write quite good English.

M.A.R.

21:36

@FaheemMitha I think Gigili's Iranian too

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. oh

M.A.R.

@Mitch is also too mysterious so he could be both American and Iranian

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. Unlikely.

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha I know, I'm joking

still suspects and watches Mitch closely

Tonepoet

Gasparo

21:41

@Tonepoet All complete with periods that you never omit.

M.A.R.

in The Periodic Table, yesterday, by M.A.R.

And FYI, I have friends on FBI, CIA, NSA, KGB, Mousad, FSB and everywhere else

Let your eyes burn.

It works like alcohol

Tonepoet

@Gasparo Hmm, how'd you know that?

Gasparo

@M.A.R. I read about your kidney problem. Sorry to hear about it. I pray that you will be alright.

@Tonepoet I know that because I have X-ray eyes.

M.A.R.

@Gasparo thank you! Jasparo

Gasparo

@Tonepoet I read that you got a copy of CGEL at 55 dollars. Be prepared to get the wrong book or a really bad copy despite its description.

There is so much fake news these days...

M.A.R.

21:49

@Gasparo too late, his book has arrived and it's full of cooking recipes

Arguably more useful than CGEL in the long run

Gasparo

@M.A.R. Really? A recipe book?

M.A.R.

Who needs grammar anyway?

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. We all do.

M.A.R.

@Gasparo I'm kidding

But I might as well hijack the package and do it

Gasparo

@M.A.R. I did bring myself to get a copy of CGEL. The most expensive book I ever bought.

M.A.R.

21:51

Then take a picture of his face and share it

Faheem Mitha

What is CGEL?

M.A.R.

@FaheemMitha Cambridge Grammar of blah blah

Gasparo

@FaheemMitha Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, the definitive grammar today, not to be confused with Cambridge Grammar of English, which is lacking.

Tonepoet

C.G.E.L. is The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. It's considered the holy grail of grammar books.

M.A.R.

Nice book. Better than Harry Potter books

Gasparo

21:53

@M.A.R. I actually considered getting a complete set of Harry Potter books from the local bookstore today, but didn't in the end.

Faheem Mitha

@Gasparo, @M.A.R., @Tonepoet: thank you. I don't think I've ever heard of it.

M.A.R.

@Tonepoet what would that make of GKP?

Oh, sorry: .G..K......P..

@FaheemMitha fun book to understand English, and linguistics in general, a bit more

Gasparo

@M.A.R. It makes him a genius. He recommends the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage as the very best usage guide today, not Fowler or Strunk and White or Garner.

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. What is G.K.P?

Gasparo

Hey @cornbreadninja麵包忍者 I am back again, lol. Hope you are OK.

Faheem Mitha

21:56

@M.A.R. Also really expensive.

M.A.R.

@Tonepoet GKPullum

@FaheemMitha no kidding

You could probably drive it

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. Ah, I think I saw Edwin Ashworth call him the Grammar Czar in a comment once?

It might have been somebody else though.

Gasparo

I only just joined ELU and already got 1 downvote, and only just ELL and already got 1 deleted post, lol.

M.A.R.

Well, his name is the most familiar in CGEL authors

So if CGEL is the holy grail, what would that make him?

Gasparo

Well, Rodney Huddleston and Geoffrey Pullum are the two main authors.

skullpatrol

22:19

The writers of the holy grail are...holy grail writers :-)

Gasparo

@skullpatrol Hello pal, I hope you are well.

skullpatrol

Hi pal

How are you?

Gasparo

@skullpatrol Still trying to get well. I believe I can do it this year. I have supernatural faith it will happen this year.

skullpatrol

Good to hear.

Take it one day at a time.

M.A.R.

22:44

@skullpatrol Ingenious! Can I get your number?

Mitch

@Gasparo Hi Gaspard, I changed my name to Misha

Haha, that's fake news

That, though, is a lie.

M.A.R.

What's a fake lie?

Mitch

The latter, mostly a half truth

@M.A.R. No, i'm saying that "that's fake news" is a lie

Or is that a lie?

M.A.R.

You can't confuse me

I'm good with fake binaries

Mitch

Good, because that's all there is

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…