English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:00

1

A: Can English have words that are both alliterations and also rhyme?

Words that both alliterate and rhyme may exist, depending on how you define "rhyme" and "alliterate". Perfect rhyme: match from stressed nucleus to end of the word Which exact pairs qualify depends on what you mean by "rhyme". Some people in the comments and answers are using a loose definition...

@Piomicron *whom honour’s yoke binds

@Piomicron No, you don't pronounce it ”wrong”, just differently. The a- prefix that derives from Greek can be pronounced any of /ə/, /eɪ/, or /a/ in the U.K. and /ə/, /eɪ/, or even /æ/ in the U.S. So sometimes it comes out like the "a" in about and other times as the "a" in face.

In particular, it may take on something other than a schwa when contrasting with the word that doesn’t have that Greek negating prefix on it, such as if you were talking about both symmetry and asymmetry in the same sentence.

@terdon ^^^^ That's like what’s afoot here.

terdon

Yes, it's that non-schwa thing I called a "pause" which gave me, well, pause.

tchrist

I think it sounds like the vowel of ache when emphasized, but I don't know how often this is.

Sometimes I wonder why rima is feminine even though poeta is masculine. :)

Oh because only poeta is from the Greek.

terdon

00:17

Oh, do words of Greek origin more often end up masculine in Latin languages?

tchrist

Yes.

agricola, poeta, nauta, pirata,

incola

Lots of first-declension masculines.

terdon

Hmm, and those that have equivalents in French also keep the masculine. And yet, biologia, geologia, filosofia, historia.

Or is it that they keep the gender of the original Greek?

tchrist

ES el planeta but be careful because it's FR la planète

Or consider the difference between la coma the punctuation and el coma the medical condition.

Cerberus

@terdon Only the ones that were already masculine in Greek.

Latin almost always adopts the Greek gender.

tchrist

planeta < πλᾰνήτης was masculine

terdon

00:24

OK, that makes more sense. I thought tchrist meant they'd just default to masculine.

Cerberus

Surely poeta, etc., are still masculine in Greek, if they are still in use?

tchrist

I can't justify what happened in French.

terdon

@Cerberus They are, yes.

Cerberus

Words on -ης are (almost?) always masculine in Greek.

Right.

terdon

@Cerberus Yes, in modern Greek as well.

Cerberus

00:24

Right.

But agricola and incola are odd, like advena, parricida.

tchrist

We teach L2 students of Spanish that many/most -ma, -pa, -ta words are masucline.

But you get into trouble, because it becomes really hard to explain why given el drama from Greek it’s feminine la trama (meaning plot).

Cerberus

7

Q: What is the origin of the -a in words like "collega, advena"?

There are a couple of masculine (or common) nouns of the first declension. Some are from masculine Greek -ês, like poeta, nauta. But others, like collega, advena, parricida, incola, agricola are natively Latin. What is the origin of this -a? And can the same root be observed in other endings / fo...

tchrist

Apparently it's because Latin had trama feminine as well. I'm not sure it actually came from Greek, but it is related to traho.

Cerberus

Ahh.

Yes, in Latin there is no neuter suffix -mat- as in Greek (nominative -ma).

(Although there is also a feminine suffix -ma/mê in Greek!)

tchrist

And of course, la cama for the bed.

Cerberus

00:29

So any Latin words on -a should be feminine.

tchrist

So you can't tell them it always works that way, despite myriad el problema, el programa examples where it indeed does so.

Cerberus

Except that there are a handful of exceptions. But no neuter ones, I should think?

terdon

Drama is neuter in modern Greek, I assume it was also so in Ancient.

Cerberus

Yes.

The suffix -mat-.

Of the 3rd declension.

How do you decline drama?

tchrist

NB: el aroma (m.) < L. aroma (m.) < G. ἄρωμα (n.)

So there's another Greek neuter that was apprehended as masculine by the Romans.

Cerberus

00:32

Huh.

tchrist

Not my fault!

Cerberus

No, it's neuter.

tchrist

It moved declensions: 3rd in Greek, 1st in Latin.

Cerberus

archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/…

tchrist

Oh is it?

Cerberus

00:33

1st in Latin?

terdon

@Cerberus in modern? -ama, -amatos, -ama, -ama

Cerberus

3rd in Latin.

tchrist

Oh weird.

It's 3rd in Latin.

So neuter.

Cerberus

@terdon OK so still 3rd.

Are those last two forms plurals or accusative/dative?

@tchrist What source was this>

tchrist

@Cerberus Me being randomly stupid. I mean, seriously: aromatic

Cerberus

00:35

@tchrist It would actually make a nice question on Latin.SE. Are there are neuter Latin words on -a that are not from Greek?

tchrist

You can't get a -t- there in English compounds out of the first declension.

Cerberus

Or: are there are masculine Latin words on -a that do not refer to a person and aren't from Greek?

@tchrist Well, in theory, Latin could have messed the word up, and English could have borrowed it via two different ways.

Quod non.

tchrist

I always assume that words like arôme, aroma that are now masculine were that way in Latin, but that's often not true.

Or, sometimes not true.

Cerberus

Never masculine!

At least I can't think of any.

tchrist

French la comète but the other Romance have that as masculine cometa, but of course that wasn't its Latin form.

Hm, wait.

Cerberus

00:41

Greek -ης again.

tchrist

yeah

I was thinking it was cometes in Latin.

Cerberus

I would not expect that.

I think -ης is normally -a.

tchrist

Yes, and this one is.

Or was, or course be.

It was a first declension masculine non-person

Cerberus

Yes, but it's from Greek.

tchrist

Oh, right, one that isn't from Greek.

Cerberus

00:44

I'll add that to the question: NO GREEK.

tchrist

Italian and French alike both have feminine comets, but Spanish and Catalan and Portuguese have masculine ones like Latin did.

terdon

@Cerberus accusative/dative

Cerberus

@tchrist Quite odd!

@terdon OK.

So is the 3rd-declension dative always -a?

tchrist

@Cerberus scriba ?

terdon

Or, not dative actually. Not sure what it's called. Of drama (drama's) is dramatos, the drama is δράμα and the accusative is also δράμα.

Cerberus

00:48

As in, dramata, right?

terdon

That's plural.

tchrist

Oh, a scriba is a person.

Cerberus

Interesting. In Ancient Greek, all forms except the nominative use the stem, dramat-.

terdon

Huh.

Cerberus

(In the nominative and accusative singular, it used to be dramat (the full word), but the t was dropped.)

@tchrist Right, that is another one!

I'll add it to that question.

@terdon Okay, wait, I think we're not understanding each other.

tchrist

00:50

-a

== English == === Etymology 1 === From the homographic case endings of the nominative, accusative, and vocative forms of numerous Latin neuter second declension nouns. ==== Pronunciation ==== (Received Pronunciation) IPA(key): /ɑ/, /ə/ (General American) IPA(key): /ɑ/, /ə/ ==== Suffix ==== -a plural of -um plural of -on ===== Usage notes ===== Whereas the regular pluralization in English involves adding -s or -es, English words derived from a Latin/Greek where the Latin/Greek would pluralize from -on (Greek) or -um (Latin) to -a do not always do so. Usage of -a instead of -s differ...

Ignore the one-box, chase the link.

Cerberus

@terdon The Ancient cases are nominative, genitive, dative, accusative.

@tchrist Ah, two of those I had never heard of!

It doesn't have collega, though.

@tchrist I wonder about those two. Why does it think they should have the same suffix?

tchrist

I couldn't ever think of collega as feminine because of the forty million times I've heard el colega for a male colleague despite la colega for a female one. Hm, some of these work like the -ista person-nouns and go both ways these days.

Cerberus

The words conferva and consolida aren't agents, and the latter isn't even from a verb.

tchrist

@Cerberus Doesn't say.

Cerberus

So why put them in that list?

tchrist

00:56

colega is slang for pal.

The -ada words for people end up masculine despite feminine stems: el camarada< la cámara

Cerberus

Funny.

Well, but the stem doesn't matter.

It's the suffix that determines the gender.

If present.

Otherwise, it's the stem.

tchrist

Una vacada is a bunch of vacas. :)

No vachade in French though.

bocata is masculine for a sandwich, from feminine boca

These are all new derivations, though, not from Latin directly.

saga wsa feminine, no hit there

Cerberus

I think -ada is from -tat-?

Or a fusion of suffixes?

tchrist

It's from -atum

Cerberus

Ah, OK.

Latin has too many similar suffixes with similar meanings.

Like dozens.

tchrist

01:08

ecloga was feminine. And Greek.

diorama :)

I have no idea why Latin mappa which was feminine yielded el mapa.

Færd

01:42

> It is not overwhelming and it is not underwhelming. You leave the production feeling merely whelmed.

(Los Angeles Times, February 6, 2001)

See Editor's Note under whelm in M-W Dictionary.

tchrist

02:38

> 2. d. trans. To throw (something) over violently or in a heap upon something else, esp. so as to cover or to crush or smother it.
a1631 J. Donne Serm. (1953) VI. 67 Hill upon hill whelmed upon it.
1637 J. Pocklington Altare Christianum 96 This Milstone of a consequence the Author has whelmed upon himselfe.
1686 R. Plot Nat. Hist. Staffs. iv. 166 Fig. 3. is to be whelmed upon Fig. 2. so that A. in Fig. 3. touch A. in Fig. 2.
1752 E. Young Brothers i. i Not seals of adamant, not mountains whelm'd On guilty secrets, can exclude the day.

> 4. trans.

a. To cover completely with water or other fluid so as to ruin or destroy; to submerge, drown; occasionally to sink (a boat).
1558 T. Phaer tr. Virgil Seuen First Bks. Eneidos i. sig. A.ij Let out thy windes & all their ships do drown wt waters wylde, Disperse them all to sondrie shores or whelme them downe wt deepe.
a1616 Shakespeare Merry Wives of Windsor (1623) ii. ii. 133 Giue fire: she is my prize, or Ocean whelme them all.
1697 Dryden tr. Virgil Æneis vi, in tr. Virgil Wks. 375 He saw his Friends, who whelm'd beneath the Waves, Their Fun'ral Honours claim'd.

It hasn't been updated lately, and the citations always stop by the end of the 19th century.

Færd

Yeah. It basically means overwhelm. I wonder whether the LA Times usage is oddly singular even in the present day.

Then again, it's not a common verb in today's English, to begin with.

tchrist

02:57

True.

tchrist

03:09

I like climbing climbing roses climbing climbing gyms.

Hongkai Guo

03:40

hello

Mitch

@tchrist spicy clamata is from a bottle

*dont cry for me Argentina in background* me: it’s not that good of a song. Anna: yeah it’s by Andrew Lloyd Webber, none of his songs are good songs.

Tweeted by eh_laura_ on January 29, 2018 at 3:20 AM

terdon

08:41

@Cerberus Aren't you missing one? The modern ones are nominative, genitive, accusative, and vocative. We've dropped the dative, but didn't Ancient Greek also have the vocative?

I was falling asleep yesterday though, so I may very well not have given the right names.

Feeds

11:49

0

Q: Is there a specific word for burps/belching from alcohol?

This might be a bit pedantic but just working on a translation at the moment and it got me wondering if there is any specific word for alcohol(ic) belching/burps? Searching only gives results like: burping and alcohol belching and alcohol In Chinese there is the word 酒嗝 which literally means...

single-word-requests

Feeds

12:07

0

Q: I'm requiring a word to describe the instinctive condition of one who is innocent and dependent

To elaborate, the word should describe the instinctive behavior of a person in a climate devoid of threat, therefore being innocent or unknowing regarding the need for defense. Furthermore, this same climate is one of providence upon which the person is totally dependent.

single-word-requests

Mitch

14:13

@terdon Vocative? That's not a real case. It's only used in the rarest of situations and doesn't cover all combinations of other things like number and person. It's a sham case.

It's a sham case for my real moo

Not a real case for Shamu

terdon

@Mitch It's very commonly used. You just did so right there when you used my name, actually.

Mitch

AHA! I caught you!

There was no change in form

You could spilt hairs all day functionally and name them all, but that doesn't make them a thing

terdon

@Mitch Not in English! English doesn't do changes. It would probably confuse all you poor unilinguists.

Mitch

sigh

point not made

terdon

But it does change in Greek. My name, for example, is Karolos in the nominative, but Karole in the vocative.

Mitch

14:17

And where else do things change?

terdon

@Mitch No, I get the feeling you're going for a joke but aiming it way above my head.

Mitch

No where, that's where

terdon

I'd like a sham case for my real poo.

A sham poo case!

Mitch

@terdon No I'm being mercurial. Or is it chaotic. Maybe entropic?

@terdon OK, that's better.

It's always a work in progress

OK back to vocative.

terdon

Let's go for merchaopic, to be on the safe side.

Mitch

14:18

It's not like the other cases.

It's in very rare semantic situation

that only works in non-sentential situations.

terdon

Serious or joke? I can't tell any more.

Mitch

You might as well say 'Hey @terdon' is in vocative case

terdon

It is.

Mitch

and that's obviously silly

or perverse

terdon

Ah, hang on. We're not talking about cases, we were discussion declensions and the languages that have them.

Mitch

14:20

@terdon That sounds like a descriptor for some kinds of squid

terdon

You can't really translate the concept into English.

@Mitch I was thinking of a documentary about the life of a merchant, but that will do.

Mitch

@terdon But you were using is as though English had it

terdon

I was?

Mitch

and my point is that the vocative case (OK I really only know of how it might work in Latin, not Greek, ancient or otherwise)

terdon

No, I was just using latin script for Greek words, if you mean this:

14 hours ago, by terdon

@Cerberus in modern? -ama, -amatos, -ama, -ama

Mitch

14:23

anyway back to serious discussion of the vocative. It's very rarely used, it doesn't fill out in the dimensions of number and person and (thank you for reminding me) it doesn't change with respect to declension (arbitrary noun category)

terdon

But for example, take a name like Philip. In Greek, that's "Filipos" and is declined thusly: Fílipos, Filípou, Fílipo, Fílipe. So three different endings, one for each declension.

Mitch

so I consider it a nerd category, ie only a category that nerds care about, and not a useful categorization at that.

terdon

Your call. But it's clearly distinguishable and very commonly used in Greek.

Although I admit I may be getting cases and declensions confused in my brain.

Mitch

The multiple Russian cases like instrumental and locative and god knows what other perversions are real cases that are covered by number person declension etc etc etc (other unnamed slavic perversions)

vocative is not a real case

terdon

@Mitch I don't understand why you'd say that. How is it any different to any other?

Although you really should have this discussion with @Cerberus or someone else who understands the things in greater detail. I just know what a naive native Greek speaker knows.

Mitch

14:26

@terdon how about if you have more than one Filipos? How about the vocative for 'they'? How about the vocative for feminine versions of 'agape'?

Ha

terdon

@Mitch Filipoi and Agapes.

What about them?

Mitch

@terdon Pfft. Knowledge. That just confuses the issue

Also, I am right

@terdon Oh.

Well, then

terdon

@Mitch Well, that was never in question! I am trying to figure out why you're right this time!

Mitch

Maybe Greek is diffferent

Also maybe that is a good reason for me to avoid Greek.

Way too many cases to learn

terdon

Yeah, vocative buggers.

Mitch

14:28

But I'd rather learn Greek, ancient or otherwise, than modern Russian.

way too much grammar

also all the words are different

I may have to retract my statement that vocative is not a real case, at least for Greek.

Note I said 'may'

I certainly stand by the statement that vocative is a stupid case and is unneeded. Just say the word louder and you're done.

Matt E. Эллен

I may note that

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен Always a good idea to have an out

a back door

an escape clause

Matt E. Эллен

a side channel

Mitch

nice

a slippery slope

oops, that's another conversation

a weasel word?

'ferret' just sounds nicer

terdon

DOOR

That was vocative. Á la Mitch.

Matt E. Эллен

14:32

maybe "weasel word" could be appropriate there, perhaps

terdon

vomitorium

That's probably the best word for exit you're likely to find.

Mitch

Oh, I also have a (more reasonable) theory that all those cases and declensions and such are a bit made up. (I'm talking about Latin; we've established that Greek can do its own weird thing)

@terdon or exit.

just sayin

terdon

@Mitch boring.

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon I'll put it above the door in my (hypothetical) shop

Mitch

egress

Matt E. Эллен

14:34

egret

Mitch

Are they going to do that in the Barnum film coming out soon?

Matt E. Эллен

are they going to "a heron like bird"?

terdon

I first learned the word vomitorium when attending a concert in a Roman amphitheater in Nîmes, and saw the signs for "Vomitorium 4".

I was wondering what the hell had happened to Dead can Dance, they were never that sort of thing!

Mitch

Supposedly there was a thing Barnum did in his shows, had a big sign that said 'To the Egress' expecting that people had only vaguely heard the word and thought it meant to go see the birds

Matt E. Эллен

lol

Mitch

14:36

Oh Barnum

Like in IndoEuropean there are at least 8 cases

Matt E. Эллен

(CU L8R)

Mitch

THat just seems like they were having fun making up things

@MattE.Эллен ab12

terdon

@MattE.Эллен All is traitor.

Mitch

terdon

@Mitch What's that from? It shows two enclaves of Aromanian (no. 20) in a place I had no idea it was spoken. Does the source have any more details?

Mitch

14:52

1blomma.deviantart.com/art/Linguistic-map-of-Europe-396459429

It's just some person.

Pfft

maps like these are so political

also oversimplifying

I had been under the impression thatmuch more of Romania was Hungarian speaking/ethnic than just that small blob

also what is 'a romanian'?

#20

which romance thing is it most closely related to?

terdon

@Mitch It is the state of lacking Romanians.

Mitch

@terdon I don't want want to say whether I consider that good or bad

terdon

I would hope you consider it neither!

Mitch

15:11

I'm not saying!

terdon

@Mitch You're just a dirty aromanianist, admit it!

Mitch

15:26

From the map it shows that aromanian is probably some kind of romance but spoken in small pockets in Greece. DO you happen to know people who speak it?

terdon

15:47

@Mitch My father has published a very nice book about the Vlachs, the ethnic group who speak it, and its author is a friend. I don't think I've met any speakers myself, but he has.

Vlachs

Vlachs (English: , or rarely ) is an exonym referring to Eastern Romance-speaking peoples found throughout Eastern and Southeastern Europe (Romanians, Moldovans and Aromanians). "Vlachs" were initially identified and described during the 11th century by Byzantine historian George Kedrenos. The term was also popularly used for the Slavic-speaking mostly Orthodox Christian shepherds and migrants in the western Balkans. According to one origin theory, modern Romanians and Aromanians originated from Dacians. According to some linguists and scholars, the Eastern Romance languages prove the survival...

Educ

16:42

Hi

Is it correct to say : "does the professor make the attendance sheet this morning ?"

Mitch

17:22

@terdon vlachs. sounds like a pickle

@Educ "Did the professor make...?"

Educ

@Mitch Please Mitch take look to my stentence

@Mitch Okay Thank you so much

how are you ?

Mitch

I'm pretty good. How about yoursefl?

Educ

so so , we are in the last days of cold weather , so we called it in arabic colloquial "LIALI" its begin from 25 December and still 40 days, I will search later for the appropriete word in ENGLISH

Mitch

17:40

Winter?

Feeds

18:02

0

Q: Is there a better alternative for "marriage seeker"?

I'm trying to find an alternative for "marriage seeker"; ie, someone who asks for the other's hand in marriage.

single-word-requests synonyms alternative phrasing

Cerberus

@terdon OK! That explains it, then. Drama for a dative seemed odd.

Vocative is a case, yes.

But it's not often not listen, because it is less common, I suppose.

@Mitch The vocative may very often have the same ending as the nominative in Latin, but strictly speaking it's still its own case.

And it has number and gender.

Greek inflexion is much more complicated than Latin.

And it has distinct vocative forms more often.

Though only for the singular, I think.

At least I can't think of any word where the nominative and vocative plural are different.

Mitch

18:36

@Cerberus OK. But my point is, and I may actually have one, is that if the vocative weren't there, no one would notice and the ancient world would not fall apart

Um... but it did fall apart...

which means...

modus tollens and all that...

THE VOCATIVE CASE WAS THE CAUSE OF THE DOWNFALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE

skullpatrol

that, and having no Roman numeral for zero :P

Educ

@Mitch Winter yes but it's name of that session I'm talking about specific days of it (40 days from 25 december and on week start from 1 mars each year have particular day in march )

Is it correct to say : Could you share with us your note-taking of teacher X's class from this morning ?

skullpatrol

Could you share with us your notes from teacher X's class this morning ?

Educ

thanks

skullpatrol

np

Educ

18:44

:)

@skullpatrol Is it emoticon or abrevation of something to say no need for example, you're welcome

skullpatrol

Emoticon.

Educ

yes that's what i thought :)

MetaEd

@Mitch Good chance it's the same word. ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=vlasic

Cerberus

@Mitch The Ancient World did fall apart.

Imagine how much worse it would have been without even the vocative.

Feeds

0

Q: Finding the right phrase

Would it be possible to help me find the right word or phrase to describe a person who asks their friends to lend them beverage dispensers for hosting a party when all the while this person is rich and very well to do.

single-word-requests phrase-requests

Cerberus

18:50

Quid faciundum?

skullpatrol

I was kinda surprised how close the translation of the word "doctor" is to "teacher" in Latin.

skullpatrol

19:07

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 any predictions for the Super Bowl?

NE(–7)

Cerberus

19:21

@skullpatrol Yes, it means the same thing!

A doctor is someone who teaches at a university.

One needs a PhD for that.

skullpatrol

Yup.

Cerberus

Medical practitioners at some point all got PhDs.

So a medical practitioner would be a doctor, too.

And that's the only doctor that most people get to meet or hear about in daily life.

So at some point people began to use the word synonymously.

Or that's how I imagine it went.

skullpatrol

According to etymology online M.D. made it into the dictionary 100 years earlier than PhD?

Mitch

@Cerberus reinstates vocative

stocks fall

frogs and fish rain from the sky

boils, pestilence, and hangnails

Educ

I would like to write Motivation to apply for the program Called : Desy summer student programe :

so is it correct to say :

" In order to get more exprience and add it to my curriluim vita I need your Desy summer student programe

"

Would please suggests to me something coherence as Motivation to apply for this program

Cerberus

19:35

@skullpatrol Well, I don't know about English.

But these are Latin terms.

The word doctor is used the same way all over Europe.

skullpatrol

Indeed.

2

A: Which was the first doctor, M.D. or Ph.D.?

It seems that doctor for both PhD and MD came about the same time: late 14c ... slowly besteading the OE word for a physician: leech. From Etymology Online: doctor (n.) c.1300, "Church father", from O.Fr. doctour, from M.L. doctor "religious teacher, adviser, scholar", in classical L. "...

It's sorta like the chicken or the egg question :-)

...there was an evolutionary process...

Educ

Would you please explain to me the difference between those levels

?

Cerberus

That site doesn't even know English itself.

"Fluency English" is not correct at all.

Educ

It's german website

Cerberus

It's pretty awful that they can't even use correct English in their form about English fluency.

Educ

19:49

ias.desy.de/pls/apex/f?p=100:1:0:

Yes but what the level appropriete for me to choose

I need also to write motivation to apply

as you know I'm not native speaker, also I don't speak English fluency so should I use English skills /working knowledge but i'm still student I don't work

skullpatrol

I think "Working knowledge" means you can work with the language enough to get your ideas across to others.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…