English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

22:00

It's rigged.

Færd

However the elections don't come out as he pleases, and that's really telling.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Doesn't sound very democratic. So, how are things in Iran generally. Do people get to eat, for example?

tchrist

It's hard to blame people for not liking rigged systems.

Faheem Mitha

Food, shelter, clothing. That sort of thing. What percentage of people are homeless?

Cerberus

@Færd Yeah, so he is kind of the weakest point in the checks and balances that maintain the Islamic State.

Færd

22:01

@tchrist True, but poeple make use of what they have at their disposal.

@FaheemMitha I'd have to check the statistics online to give accurate data.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Ok. I just thought you might have an impression.

I mean, assuming you live in an urban area.

Færd

Many are hard-up for basic necessities of life, but we're still better off than many of our neighbors.

Faheem Mitha

The statistics online quote dire stuff, but I'm not sure whether to believe it.

tchrist

Iran always had a solid professional class.

Færd

@FaheemMitha A lot of homelessness in the urban areas as well.

Cerberus

22:03

It's not Africa, you know.

tchrist

More than most of its neighbors.

Cerberus

Than all, I should think.

tchrist

Probably.

Færd

I wanted to exclude Qatar.

Faheem Mitha

@Færd online it says like half of people in the urban areas are below the poverty line.

Cerberus

22:04

OK if you call Qatar a neighbour, then you lose!

Faheem Mitha

That sounds pretty extreme.

Cerberus

You'd need to know what definition of "poverty" was used.

Faheem Mitha

Again, I don't know what to believe.

@Cerberus Good point.

Færd

@FaheemMitha I think that's too high a standard to gauge our conditions with.

Cerberus

In Holland, according to official statistics, about 15% of the people or so live in povert.

But I can tell you that it doesn't mean what you would think it means.

Faheem Mitha

22:05

Apparently education is free. So at least in that respect, it's beating most of the world. If it is true, of course.

Cerberus

Yay!

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus What does it mean? :-)

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha It means something like, they earn less than 50% of the average wage, or something similar.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus I see. So that doesn't actually mean poverty, then?

Cerberus

They still get enough to eat, healthcare, education, a normal house to live in, etc.

Faheem Mitha

22:06

I know that the Netherlands is very expensive.

@Cerberus I see. That sounds pretty good for poverty, then.

Cerberus

Well, I personally would not have chosen that definition, yes.

Mitch

@Gigili I thought I heard in the week before the demonstartions started that an announcement had been made that the laws against wearing headscarf by women in public was not going to be enforced. Is that right? If not, what was it exactly?

Gigili

What do you know about the recent events in Iran? @Meysam

Educ

@FaheemMitha in my country from this year educatiom won t be free and the problem we have the lowst rate of education in the world

Cerberus

That's unfortunate.

Faheem Mitha

22:07

The Govt of India (which is insane) sets the level for poverty slightly above starving. Or possibly below. But they are lunatics. And quite a big chunk of them are professional criminals as well.

Cerberus

Also unfortunate.

Faheem Mitha

@Educ Morocco, right?

Educ

Even the poor people have pay for their childreen to have the bad education in the world

Yes

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus ok. Thank you for the clarification.

Educ

@FaheemMitha yes

Faheem Mitha

22:09

@Educ You might still be better off than India. But I haven't looked at the statistics.

Educ

Yes but you can Check them anytime

Faheem Mitha

Or maybe Bangladesh or Pakistan. Both of which are doing worse than India. But again I don't know the details.

Meysam

@Gigili It wont be wrapped up this soon, it's only the beginning

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Maybe it's a little less extreme than I suggested, but my point was just that the "50% poverty" you saw for Iranian cities might or might not mean what one would expect.

Mitch

@Meysam I heard that there was an announcement that wearing chador was not going to be enforced anymore. Is that right? Or was it something similar?

Faheem Mitha

22:11

@Cerberus Maybe not.

Educ

moroccoworldnews.com/2017/11/235094/…

Gigili

@Mitch Total news to me.

Meysam

@Mitch Yes there's going to be less pressure on the women of the country. But who knows, it's probably too late to loosen things

Faheem Mitha

@Educ I know that much of Morocco is mostly Muslim. Does it have a significantly diverse population?

Specifically, are there many people living there that are not native Africans?

Gigili

I believe it originally was air pollution.

Meysam

22:16

@Mitch Indeed what they said is that they won't arrest and send to court women for not wearing their head properly, anymore

Gigili

Psychological and toxic effects of air pollution can lead anxiety and changes in mood, cognition, and behavior...

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha What do you mean by Africans, exactly?

The population is mostly Arabic and Berber.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Someone born on the continent of Africa.

Cerberus

Well, Morocco is on the continent of Africa, and of course most are born in their own country.

Faheem Mitha

I'm just wondering if there is significant immigration from places outside Africa.

Cerberus

22:18

Oh, I see.

Significant, yes.

Faheem Mitha

I actually thought Morocco was in relatively good shape by African standards.

Cerberus

It is.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Oh, ok.

Educ

@FaheemMitha most of us are native africans but in marakech you find people live there kind of rich one from diverse nationality france germany ect

Rabat – “A teacher knocked out by his own student in the classroom,” “a female teacher was stabbed by her raging student,” “a teacher brutally attacked and seriously injured by his own students” “a teacher was punched on the nose by a student, profusely bled.” These headlines have become commonplace these days on the front pages of Moroccan newspapers and news outlets

Cerberus

But I think you should not throw sub-Saharan and super-Saharan Africa in one and the same basket.

Faheem Mitha

22:19

@Educ ok. So there is some immigration.

Educ

Yes

Who choose to live here

But most of them in marakech

Faheem Mitha

@Educ Is that like a big tourist area or something?

Educ

moroccoworldnews.com/2017/11/234748/…

@FaheemMitha yes very big one

Faheem Mitha

@Educ ok.

Mitch

@Gigili News is weird everywhere, but I heard this on NPR (US non-commercial news radio, respected, not junk). As a random news item, just wondering if it had anything at all to do with the current demonstrations. But if its news to you then it's probably not well known within IR

@Meysam That sounds like part of a general move towards liberalism

Faheem Mitha

22:22

So, for folks from Morocco and Iran, what's the internet like? Stable? And speeds? And does it have significant censorship?

Educ

Tourism in Marrakech Breaks All Records in 2017

moroccoworldnews.com/2018/01/237558/…

@FaheemMitha we have fiber

Faheem Mitha

@Educ Wow, really?

Mitch

@FaheemMitha Africa is quite a big place. I wouldn't be surprised if there are subSaharans coming through Morocco on their way to Spain...wait, I think there are refugee camps outside of Tangier and Ceuta for exactly that purpose

Gigili

@Mitch That's the one.

Faheem Mitha

@Mitch I was just trying to get a sense of immigration patterns.

Færd

22:24

@Mitch If there was a serious change of attitude, its boom would be heard everywhere. No such thing has reached me.

Mitch

@FaheemMitha I don't think people move to Morocco to stay in Morocco

Educ

@Mitch some of them they stub and steal us

Færd

@Mitch It's been unofficially accepted that women don't have to wear their scarves properly in public.

For years now.

Mitch

@Gigili He doesn't sound stupid or crazy, but there might be a lot more to him, like a subtext that he's referring to.

Meysam

@Mitch No that's not true. This is how it started: the first vice president, Jahangiri, was about to go to Mashhad to make a speech. This cleric, Alamolhoda, the representative of Iran's leader in Mashahad, encouraged his supporters to make a demonstration against Rouhani's government as Jahangiri arrives, against high living costs! And this small demonstration, to their surprise, unexpectedly set the whole country on fire :))

Educ

22:26

@Mitch yes for subsaharans they move just to gothrough to spain but for rich people they stayed they even bought places here

Mitch

@Færd But women almost entirely do wear chador, just a little further back from their foreheads than they used to, right?

Færd

@Meysam Yeah.

@Mitch The majority don't wear chador at all.

Cerberus

> “Those who do not observe the Islamic dress code will no longer be taken to detention centers, nor will judicial cases be filed against them.” Tehran police chief General Hossein Rahimi was quoted as saying by the reformist Sharq newspaper.

> But hard-liners opposed to easing such rules still dominate Iran’s security forces and judiciary, so it was unclear whether the change would be fully implemented.

Educ

@FaheemMitha check this iam.ma/en/the-group-maroc-telecom/index.aspx

Færd

@Mitch Every woman has to wear headscarves. But you can wear it loosely on the streets if you choose.

Cerberus

22:27

> The semi-official Tasnim news agency said violators will instead be made to attend classes given by police. It said repeat offenders could still be subject to legal action, and the dress code remains in place outside the capital.

Færd

Governmental workplaces may have stricter rules.

Mitch

@Færd actually I have never gotten a good idea of the difference between chador and hijab and headscarf. so I maybe have used the wrong word. What's the word for head scarf (just the simple thing to wrap around your head, but not tight, easy to show a lot of hair)?

Gigili

@Mitch Do you know what chador is? It's different from headscarf

Meysam

And they are shocked now, they don't know how to extinguish this fire. It may result in change of regime

Mitch

@Færd THat's a different statement than 'Women do not have to wear a headscarf anymore'.

Oh. You said 'properly'

OK

@Gigili I don't

what's the word for headscarf?

Cerberus

22:29

Hijab.

Færd

Hijab is too general.

Gigili

@Mitch Shawl.

Meysam

@Mitch No, it's just to temporarily calm down the angry people

Færd

Dependent on cultural customs and stuff.

Cerberus

Færd

22:30

1, 2, and 3 are chador.

The cloak-like piece that covers your whole body.

#4 is maqna'e in Iran. Actually most women wear that one differently here. So not sure the name.

Cerberus

Surely burqa and niqab don't count as chador?

Meysam

@FaheemMitha Access to the main communication tools, Telegram and Instagram, has been blocked. There is also difficulty accessing internet on phones.

Cerberus

Chador

A chādor (Persian: چادر‎), also variously spelled in English as chadah, chad(d)ar, chader, chud(d)ah, chadur and naturalized as /tʃʌdə(ɹ)/ is an outer garment or open cloak worn by some women in Iran and some other countries in public spaces or outdoors. A chador is a full-body-length semicircle of fabric that is open down the front. This cloth is tossed over the woman's or girl's head, but then she holds it closed in the front. The chador has no hand openings, or any buttons, clasps, etc., but rather it is held closed by her hands or tucked under the wearer's arms. Before the 1978–79 Irani...

Færd

@Cerberus The parts that cover your face are not a chador.

Cerberus

@Færd But they're attached.

Educ

22:33

There is no morocco in statistics

Færd

Could be.

Faheem Mitha

@Meysam "main communication tools"? Are you referring to Telegram and Instagram?

Færd

But that's not practiced in Iran at all.

Educ

But for us most 5 and 6 and few of 2

Faheem Mitha

@Færd What isn't?

Do women actually cover their heads in Iran then? I mean, in practice.

Færd

22:34

Face-covering garment for women.

Cerberus

@Færd It's interesting that you should call burqa/niqab chador.

Færd

2 mins ago, by Færd

@Cerberus The parts that cover your face are not a chador.

Meysam

@FaheemMitha Yes

Faheem Mitha

The Shah didn't approve of head covering etc. Big surprise.

Cerberus

@Færd Still, you'd use the terminology differently.

Faheem Mitha

22:36

And forced people not to wear it. Wow, that's really smart.

I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did. But I suppose the US was propping him up a lot.

Færd

@Cerberus Different in what way?

Gigili

@FaheemMitha Men also cover their head

Cerberus

You called 1 and 2 chador, while I would not.

Faheem Mitha

@Gigili Where?

Gigili

All around the world, especially in winter

Færd

22:37

@Cerberus I clarified the vague statement. I meant ...

6 mins ago, by Færd

The cloak-like piece that covers your whole body.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Of course. They brought him to power through a coup d'état, after all.

@Færd Okay, never mind.

Færd

Fuck that coup.

Faheem Mitha

@Gigili Well, sure. When it's necessary for climate reasons.

Cerberus

Indeed.

Meysam

The good news is that wearing Hijab won't be mandatory in the next regime.

Cerberus

22:38

Things would have been very different in Iran, had it not been for the coup.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus The 1953 coup, you mean?

That was a nasty business.

Cerberus

I don't remember the exact year, but, yes, around that time, ousting Mossadegh.

Meysam

@Cerberus I thought you meant the 1979 coup

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Yes, that one.

@Meysam Isn't that normally called the Islamic Revolution?

Cerberus

@Meysam We were talking about how they brought the Shah to power.

Færd

22:41

@Mitch Roosari (روسری), shawl (شال), among other things.

Faheem Mitha

I wonder how much people in Iran remember the Shah.

Meysam

@FaheemMitha Yes, and indeed that was another type of coup

Faheem Mitha

It's been nearly 40 years.

@Meysam Ok. I thought it was a popular protest thing. Which isn't quite the same. Then again, it's not clear if the people of Iran actually wanted an Islamic theocracy. I'll go out on a limb and say no.

Færd

@FaheemMitha And many are calling for its heirs to come and seize back the power from the ruling clergy.

Stupid. And to call those liberal demands!

Faheem Mitha

@Færd Ugh. Heirs of Mohammed Pahlavi? Who are they?

That's insane.

Cerberus

22:44

@Færd A great many, or just a few?

Færd

@FaheemMitha Dunno. Don't even ask. Some unlucky opportunist waiting for the world to turn in their favor.

@Cerberus I hear the chants sometimes and have seen them on film, but I don't have accurate statistics.

Cerberus

But I think Iran will eventually become more liberal, whatever happens.

Meysam

@FaheemMitha Many people didn't want the consequences of the so-called revolution, and expected something totally different to come.

Færd

@Cerberus I do to.

If nothing starkly out of ordinary happens.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Unless the US bombs the crap out of them. Or kills them with sanctions.

Cerberus

22:45

@Færd Everyone hated the Shah, so I would not expect there to be that many!

Faheem Mitha

@Meysam Yes, I can imagine.

Færd

@Cerberus No, not everyone.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha They won't bomb Iran in the near nor immediate future, at least not extensively.

Færd

And not everyone now remembers those feelings.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Yes, the Shah sounds quite hateful.

Cerberus

22:46

Nor will they invade it.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus It's unlikely, I agree.

Meysam

I hope the next change be more in accordance to our wishes and expectations

Cerberus

OK.

Faheem Mitha

Then again, the current US "leadership" isn't actually predictable.

Mitch

@Gigili ?? Headscarf or shawl are Farsi words?

Cerberus

22:46

@Færd Of course.

@FaheemMitha It does care about popularity a great deal.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Invasion is incredibly unlikely. And would be an extremely stupid move.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus It does.

Cerberus

And neither the American population nor the establishment want another costly, unsuccessful war.

Faheem Mitha

Actually, I read that the Iranian elite (westernized, liberal) quite liked the Shah and his "reforms".

Færd

22:48

@Meysam "The next change" implies a step taken in a short period. I prefer gradual change, mostly.

Faheem Mitha

But they were a small minority, I suppose. And presumably weren't being tortured by his secret police.

Færd

Unless you mean in terms of the next Leader or something, to which I totally agree.

Gigili

@Mitch He actually does sound smart. His analysis of information/disinformation is fascinating.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Most didn't want the Iraq war either. I was there when it happened.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha Some of the elite. And Mossadegh before had also reformed society, I believe.

Faheem Mitha

22:49

There were very extensive protests, if you remember.

Mitch

@Gigili so a chador is a full body thing also overs the head, but not the face, correct?

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha I think they did!

Mitch

and a hijab is just a head covering (not the face)?

Faheem Mitha

E.g. the International Days of Protest. Feb 15th 2003, if I recall correctly.

Mitch

and a manteau is... the same as a chador?

Faheem Mitha

22:50

@Cerberus I don't think so. The US populace isn't actually very political at all.

Færd

@Mitch Too many terms, eh?

Faheem Mitha

They were just being fed a non-stop diet of insane government propaganda.

Færd

Now you feel what I go through learning your language!

Gigili

@Mitch hmmm? Shawl is Persian.

@Mitch Right

Faheem Mitha

Seriously, there were very few people in the US that wanted war with Iraq.

Gigili

22:52

@Mitch Left

MetaEd

@tchrist My list of rooms I'm in is really confusing on account of this new room name. Would it be okay if we go ahead and change all other chatroom names to IPA as well?

Gigili

Middle

Færd

@Mitch We don't have a hijab in Farsi. It's hijab, a general term meaning for one to cover their body.

Faheem Mitha

Americans here can feel free to disagree with me. But I don't think this is a controversial statement.

Cerberus

> Although pro-war sentiments were very high after 9/11, public opinion stabilized soon after, and slightly in favor of the war. According to a Gallup poll conducted from August 2002 through early March 2003, the number of Americans who favored the war in Iraq fell between 52 percent to 59 percent, while those who opposed it fluctuated between 35 percent and 43 percent

Wikipaedia.

Faheem Mitha

22:54

@Cerberus They were being brainwashed. And WP is notoriously useless for politics stuff. Mostly they just parrot the dominant US line.

Cerberus

I remember 2003.

Faheem Mitha

The amount of rubbish that was being talked about Iraq at that time was beyond belief.

Cerberus

The American population was leaning towards favouring the war at the time. Of course that changed soon after it actually began...

Meysam

Currently the main problem of our country is the lack of freedom of speech. Newspapers are not allowed to report whatever they want and there is consequences to that. The result is the corruption of the whole system. Freedom of speech will hopefully be the most important rule of constitution in the next regime.

Faheem Mitha

The US press is never worth much, but they really outdid themselves. It was truly a disgusting spectacle.

Cerberus

22:55

Based on misinformation from the CIA, yes.

Faheem Mitha

I remember I used to watch the TV and sometimes wonder if I was dreaming.

Færd

I wouldn't agree that the American people don't want a war anymore. It'd take more to convince them, sure. But that doesn't mean they're against it on principle.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus If you are being fed a diet of lies, it doesn't mean much. And polls don't mean that much either.

Cerberus

@Færd I don't know about principle, but they just don't want a serious war / invasion in Iran now.

@FaheemMitha Why not?

Faheem Mitha

@Færd You realise that the wordview presented by the mainstream US media doesn't have much correspondence with reality, right? Particularly about foreign countries.

Færd

22:56

@Cerberus What if they're convinced that Iran is a real threat?

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha That is how the people felt about it then. And they feel completely different about a war against Iran now. The situation is completely different.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Good question.

Cerberus

@Færd It'd have to be very real.

And even then, I doubt it.

Faheem Mitha

I suppose that I feel it doesn't count if your thinking is based on nonsense.

Cerberus

At the moment, they don't feel that way at all.

Færd

22:57

@Cerberus Not so sure.

@FaheemMitha Yeah. I didn't base my statement on those.

Cerberus

@FaheemMitha A public opinion is a public opinion, regardless of what it's based on.

Faheem Mitha

I think it would definitely be possible to start a war with Iran, if the people running the US wanted to do so. I doubt the US population could do much.

Cerberus

"Do"?

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Well, if you are lying to people, eventually they are going to discover the truth. Then the support goes away.

Færd

The aggressive attitude is there. Even among the people. It's just they prefer to get their own act together and not spend that much money on wars for now.

Cerberus

22:59

It's about politics. You generally don't want to start a costly war when the general public really doesn't want it.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Well, yes. What would they do about it?

@Cerberus Sure you do. The US does it all the time.

Cerberus

@Færd Exactly.

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