English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

user19161

15:00

It seems only Reg and I protect questions.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Nah, I saw Daniel do that, too.

Rob

7

Q: How to pronounce "E = mc²"

How do we pronounce E = mc²? This is a physics equation.

pronunciation

user19161

We can have cookies after protecting a question.

user19161

@Rob I am glad you are no longer without an account.

KitFox

OK. Well, I tried.

-1

A: Distinctions between "Goods" and "Commodities"

"Goods" are tangible and qualitative things that can be used to satisfy the will and desire of a consumer whereas a "commodity" is a "good" for which people have a demand for purchasing.

It's not great, but arguably more legible.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

15:03

Nice. Now the poster will start getting reps!

KitFox

No, now I will flag it as a duplicate of another answer.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Hahaha.

user19161

@KitFox I am not sure if that is his intention.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Nöone is sure what his intention is.

user19161

Sometimes I start to edit and then just stop because I can't guess anymore.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

15:04

Then flag for deletion.

KitFox

There.

user19161

They should put a cookie picture instead of a flag.

KitFox

Now you can decide if it is the same or not.

user19161

Hello @aedia!

aedia λ

Mornin'!

KitFox

15:07

> Your login attempt was not successful. Please try again.

So what did I do this time?

Or rather not do?

Who designed this crappy website anyway?

user19161

@KitFox Wrong password? Is your caps lock on?

KitFox

Oh. Right. It was me.

aedia λ

Failed to make your offering before the sun gods?

KitFox

@aediaλ Morning!

user19161

Maybe you are using a different keyboard?

KitFox

15:08

You'll be glad to know we discuss the filing cabinet again, and @MrShiny started a blog about it so we can all stay up-to-date.

@WillHunting No.

user19161

I think the keyboards I use are all classified under American.

Rob

Why are non-native English speaking people so sensitive about the use of words?

aedia λ

@KitFox Ooh I see!

user19161

@Rob Naturally so.

aedia λ

@Rob What makes you think so?

Rob

15:11

Why "naturally"? they don't know enough

user19161

If one is learning a new language one would be wondering why there are over 9000 synonyms of any word.

user19161

They would wanna know the subtle distinctions not immediately evident.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Also: most dictionaries that go from one language to another are really terrible.

user19161

It's confusing why there is big huge large gigantic enormous humongous etc.

user19161

Sometimes it just boils down to taste and random selection.

Rob

15:12

Then don't get all defensive about the choice of words

JSBᾶngs

i wouldn't define all of these pineapple noobs as defensive

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Like, when my Chinese dictionary translates "sleep" as "睡觉". Sure, that's true, but how can I tell if that's sleep the verb, sleep the noun, how do I actually use it in Chinese, etc.

JSBᾶngs

more like overly anxious about word choice

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Unlike pineapple vets, who are offensive.

user19161

Vocabulary anxiety disorder?

JSBᾶngs

15:14

what the esl crowd doesn't know (and doesn't like to be told) is that the connotative difference between a lot of synonyms is not something that can be easily explained, but is best picked up from immersion in context

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 When your pineapple is sick, do you take it to a vet?

JSBᾶngs

@RegDwightѬſ道 lol. typo in original fixed.

talk about your meaning-changing typos

Rob

if you don't know the language just listen to it.

user19161

@Rob Deep.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs Nobody wants to be told that the only way to learn a language is through immersion.

JSBᾶngs

15:15

@MrShinyandNew安宇 but it's the only truth

user19161

The truth shall set you free.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But it also means that people get discouraged because they don't want to immerse themselves until they know how to swim, so to speak.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 that's just something you have to get over

KitFox

yip yip

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So @Foxinsocks are you @KitFox's sockpuppet? cuz if so that's a pretty transparent name.

Rob

15:16

You don't have to dive into the deep end to learn to swim.

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs True; but I think it could be much better explained if people were more aware of the connotations of words.

JSBᾶngs

seriously, the most significant step in learning any foreign language is forgetting the fear that you're going to sound like an idiot. you are going to sound like an idiot.

user19161

@Rob I think I still cannot swim properly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But if you can't touch bottom it hardly matters if this end is considered deep or not.

@JSBᾶngs yeah, that's true.

user19161

@JSBᾶngs This deserves a star.

KitFox

15:16

Wow, we are just torturing the poor little metaphors today, aren't we?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting so star it.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It's against my religion as you know!

Rob

WOW

JSBᾶngs

i hold up @kiamlaluno as a good example of a foreign language learner. he has a pretty high errors/sentence ratio, but he doesn't usually show fear to express himself, and he asks lots of great questions

KitFox

15:17

Zowee.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 She's projecting something, that's for sure

JSBᾶngs

@RegDwightѬſ道 that's projection alright

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Jinxes all around.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

jinx

meta-jinx

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 Very beautiful woman.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:18

too fast?

KitFox

I wonder what kind of trusses she's got under there.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 not furious enough

JSBᾶngs

@WillHunting yeah.... no. too pointy. looks fake.

user19161

@JSBᾶngs That is true.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@KitFox not furious enough

KitFox

15:18

Maybe not ferrous enough.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 Yeah I'm not furious at all today.

JSBᾶngs

it looks like she's gonna take someone's eye out with those things

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@JSBᾶngs remember kids, no photoshop back in the day!

Rob

You should still think about what offends you in a new languge.

and don't get so defensive

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@KitFox (See how easily I can get people away from torturing metaphors?)

user19161

15:19

@JSBᾶngs When I was in high school there was a girl who looked like that in physical education classes. Her boobs were so big they looked weird in T-shirt.

JSBᾶngs

@Rob do you mean what offends other people?

@RegDwightѬſ道 no photoshop. just good old-fashioned american bras reinforced with steel

KitFox

@JSBᾶngs And whalebone.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Nice.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Huhuh, bone, huhuh.

Rob

@JSBᾶngs No, people who try to learn English are overly defensive.

KitFox

Also, WTF is going on with my authentication?

aedia λ

15:20

@KitFox It hasn't had enough coffee either?

KitFox

On the one site, it's fine. On the other, error.

Drawing from the same datasource.

grumbles

pokes stuff

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Have a cookie. Or delete a cookie.

user19161

Reminds me of the question about "on the one hand on the other hand".

user19161

Why there is "the".

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yeah. Asked by Pekka, no less.

JSBᾶngs

15:22

@WillHunting "on one hand / on the other hand" is also acceptable

KitFox

Because you are talking about specific hands.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 Yes, have a cookie.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Who should know better cuz it's the same in German.

9

Q: Why is it "on THE one hand"?

According to all dictionaries I can see and everyday use by native speakers, this is the correct way: On the one hand, it's larger; on the other hand, it's more expensive. What makes no sense to me instinctively is the use of the first the. What is the one hand? Shouldn't it be just one han...

idioms

user19161

Really I never knew about the "the" until I saw his question.

JSBᾶngs

we should just use μεν/δε. so much shorter

Rob

15:24

As KitFox said "Because you are talking about specific hands."

user19161

And I also never knew about "just deserts" until a year ago or so.

JSBᾶngs

@WillHunting just desserts. unless you're talking about arid landscapes.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

0

A: What is the difference between "affect" and "influence"?

there is no difference they mean the same

So is this worth keeping?

JSBᾶngs

@Reg delete it

Rob

"The" specific hand...

aedia λ

15:25

no

user19161

@JSBᾶngs Wait, you know the correct version is "deserts" right? In case you were not joking.

aedia λ

stomps feet clean all the things!

JSBᾶngs

@WillHunting no, i didn't know that.

was i just corrected by Will?!?!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I get corrected by Will all the time.

aedia λ

What?

Rob

15:27

@RegDwightѬſ道 A better question would be "What is the difference between 'affect' and 'effect'

user19161

16

Q: "Just deserts" or "just desserts"

Which is correct when referring to the punishment gotten by an evil-doer: just deserts or just desserts? Are both acceptable due to common usage (see buck naked / butt naked and strait-laced / straight-laced)?

idioms

aedia λ

Deserts are never just! They're so mean and unfair!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Rob first of all, why are you telling me that, and second of all, that question already exists.

user19161

Wait is this room stunned by "just deserts"?

user19161

I was when I first discovered it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:30

@WillHunting The whole room? No.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

It takes more than a dessert to stun me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But I'm annoyed that "desert" and "dessert" have, to my mind, the opposite spellings that I want them to have.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Change your mind!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That requires changing ALL the spellings of the other words that inform that rule in my head.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

So start today!

user19161

15:32

Thursagen gave me a hilarious answer on the deserts question which I accepted!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It'd be way easier for me to change the spelling of two words than to change the spelling of all the other words

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That's looser talk.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 loser

RegDwight Ѭſ道

(Waiting to get corrected by Will)

DAMN!!!!!

He is faster.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So I hereby decree that "dessert" is the dry place and "Desert" is what you eat after dinner AND/OR what you deserve.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

15:33

Dear Will, seriously. Start getting jokes. Please. PLEASE.

user19161

I am still a bit confused by everyday/every day etc.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting everyday = common. every day = each day.

one is one word with obvious roots. The other is two words.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 I am still deciding if jsbangs was joking or not.

aedia λ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Either that or dessert is what you eat, desert is the dry place, and what you deserve has some other spelling like dezert that I won't mix up with either of them

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@WillHunting See how long that decision process is taking? Please apply the same patience to my jokes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:35

@aediaλ No... to me "dessert" should be pronounced like "DESS-ert" and "desert" like "de-SERT"

KitFox

@RegDwightѬſ道 One is your expressiveness, the other is the extent of your effect.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@KitFox so they are the same.

aedia λ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Okay, let's do it your way then. Dessicant is kind of like dessert

KitFox

@RegDwightѬſ道 pie in the face

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@aediaλ yes! more fodder for my campaign!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

15:38

@KitFox a stunning move.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 what about Dessica Alba?

KitFox

@RegDwightѬſ道 HaHA! Now lunch.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Or we could just change them both to "dezert" and let the pronunciation vary invisibly. Like "ATTribute" and "atTRIBute".

KitFox

bbl.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 she could use some fodder.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 no subliminal commercials in this chat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:39

Hey, there's no ampersand there.

AT&Tribute.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I did say "subliminal".

Carlo_R.

do you know this two men?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Steve McQueen and Paul Simon.

Carlo_R.

Nearly.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Paul McQueen and Steve Simon.

Carlo_R.

15:50

They are Starsky & Hutch.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

No way!

This is Starsky:

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So @CarloR are there a lot of old US police dramas that play on TV where you are?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

And this is Hutch:

Carlo_R.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes.

Starsky and Hutch (usually written as Starsky & Hutch) is a 1970s American cop thriller television series, which consisted of a 90-minute pilot movie (originally aired as a Movie of the Week entry) and 92 episodes of 60 minutes each.

The show was created by William Blinn, produced by Spelling-Goldberg Productions, and broadcast between April 30, 1975 and May 15, 1979 on the ABC network. It was distributed by Columbia Pictures Television in the United States and, originally, Metromedia Producers Corporation in Canada and some other parts of the world. Sony Pictures Television is now the worldwide distributor for the series.

Why in English language "and" is different from "&" ? Is this a question? 'Starsky and Hutch (usually written as Starsky & Hutch)'

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Is there a language in which "and" is not different from "&"?

Carlo_R.

15:58

Maybe Chinese.

JSBᾶngs

0

Q: Why are people learning English so defensive about word choice?

To all native English speakers only: Have any of you noticed that people trying to learn the English language and its usage are overly defensive about word choice? My question is why?

esl

sorry rob, but we need to close the hell out of this

Carlo_R.

Why?

JSBᾶngs

> This question is not a good fit to our Q&A format. We expect answers to generally involve facts, references, or specific expertise; this question will likely solicit opinion, debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion. See the FAQ for guidance on how to improve it.

Rob

@JSBᾶngs That's ok

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Carlo_R & is a symbol that is used to represent the word "and"

Carlo_R.

16:05

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I think is a very nice symbol. It is that I see the first time when I came on EL&U :)

Rob

@JSBᾶngs But I do believe the answer does involve a specific expertise and that is having English as a first language and teaching those that do not.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Rob but the question does not invite that.

The question invites subjective opinions from everyone and anyone.

And it's a complex question.

Complex questions are usually closed as NARQ as soon as we see them.

Rob

To all native English speakers only:

is the first line.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Oh sorry, not anyone and everyone. Only 330 million people.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 don't forget Canada.

We speak English here too, eh?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

16:09

@MrShinyandNew安宇 the figure is from Wikipedia, duh.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you hoser.

Rob

Do 330 million people teach to ESL's?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

List of languages by number of native speakers

The following tables list languages with more than three million estimated native speakers, ordered by number of speakers. Since the definition of a single language is to some extent arbitrary, some mutually intelligible idioms with separate national standards or self-identification have been listed together, including Hindi-Urdu; Indonesian and Malay; Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian; Punjabi; Tibetan, etc. The primary estimates used for this list are those of SIL Ethnologue. Other estimates will vary, and the numbers should be taken as no more than an indication of the rough order of m...

@Rob No, and that is precisely my point.

JSBᾶngs

@Rob in any case, your question is not about the English language. it's about the psychology of people learning English, so even if it weren't non-constructive, it would be off-topic

RegDwight Ѭſ道

If would get closed on Psychology as well.

Rob

16:12

Isn't this site about English Language and Usage?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

It is.

Rob

thank you

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Within the scope outlined in the FAQ.

And this is not a discussion forum.

Lastly, even on a discussion forum complex questions will lead you nowhere because the first thing people will do is point out how it's not a valid question.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 I find it surprising that given the population of the US, UK, CA, and AU (total=311+62+34+22M= 429M) that there are only 330M native speakers of English.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't find that surprising in the least. How many native speakers of Spanish are there in the US? Russian? Chinese? Italian?

How many of those are in Canada?

Canada, the US, and Australia are all about pineapples, by design.

Rob

16:15

what is a pineapple?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That means that essentially 1/4 of people in the US and Canada and Australia are not native speakers, and that this difference isn't counter-balanced by English speakers going to other countries.

@Rob Non-native-speaker -> NNS -> ananas -> pineapple

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I am under no impression that English speakers are too eager to go to other countries.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 It's true. We do have the best countries and the best language. And the best SE chat room.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

►

I do wonder, has anyone asked "Which language is the best?" over on Linguini.SE yet?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So according to Wikipedia's percentages of native English speakers for the countries in question, there should still be 311*.82 + 62*.95 + 34*.66 + 22*.8= 354M native english speakers.

Carlo_R.

16:24

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, I agree. This is the best chat that I ever seen.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 you are fighting for 24 mil? Really? Really?

Also, different sources, most likely.

Different years probably, too.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 I wouldn't say "fighting". More like, curious. that's a 7% difference.

and the 7% is on the wrong side of the equation. I'd expect there to be native speakers OUTSIDE those four countries, but then we'd be more than 7% short.

Anyway the number of NNS in the US and Australia suprised me. I wouldn't have put it so high.

anyway: lunch time

Carlo_R.

Oops - This is the best chat that I have ever seen.

ever or never this is the problem!

KitFox

Holla.

Meatball subs are great.

feels warm and fuzzy

Mahnax

Hello!

Rob

16:31

hi

KitFox

And for the record, I watched Starsky & Hutch a lot when I was a girl. I really, really loved it.

Mahnax

Never seen you here before, Rob; welcome!

Rob

thanks

KitFox

@Mahnax Rob is Skullpatrol.

You remember?

Mahnax

@KitFox He is?

Why is he Rob then?

Rob

16:33

no skullpatrol is rob

KitFox

@Mahnax Changed his name?

Mahnax

@KitFox Hmm, did Skullpatrol have much rep?

Rob

no

KitFox

shrugs

Rob

He had a bad rep

Mahnax

16:34

Okay, because Rob has nine rep on EL&U.

Carlo_R.

@KitFox when I was a girl. Perhaps you did want to say "when I was a boy"

Mahnax

@Carlo_R Ouch!

KitFox

@Carlo_R Why would I say that?

Mahnax

I thought Skullpatrol had more. Oh well.

Rob

I'll leave if you want

Np

Mahnax

16:35

No, it's not a problem.

I did say welcome, did I not?

Carlo_R.

@KitFox Because I do not think you have changed sex

Rob

yes and thanks

KitFox

@Carlo_R I haven't.

Rob

;-)

Mahnax

whispers to @Carlo Kit has always been female.

KitFox

16:36

@Mahnax In this room.

Mahnax

@KitFox Sure.

Carlo_R.

Ooh! Perhaps she want to say "young" girl

KitFox

I am not a girl.

gives Carlo withering look

RegDwight Ѭſ道

KitFox

Bwahahahaha

That's great.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

16:38

Don't let simchona see American ads.

Carlo_R.

I do not understand.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

KitFox

@RegDwightѬſ道 What is that, circa 1960?

Carlo_R.

Should I excuse with somebody?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

KitFox

16:39

@RegDwightѬſ道 "Women are soft and gentle, but they hit things."

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Carlo_R.

Kenwood is a consumer electronics product brand.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Indoors, women are useful — even pleasant. On a mountain they are something of a drag.

3

KitFox

@RegDwightѬſ道 I'm wondering how she cooks with nails like that.

Carlo_R.

Man are better than woman - depend from what they do

RegDwight Ѭſ道

16:42

@KitFox just as good as she drives her husband's Volkswagen.

KitFox

@RegDwightѬſ道 "You can replace anything she uses to stop the car. Even the brakes."

Carlo_R.

kenwood.net

user19161

I think we should have an FAQ to this chat explaining terms like pineapple etc.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

KitFox

Wow! $2 ties!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

16:45

That'll show her!

KitFox

But he looks rather silly lounging in bed with a dress shirt and tie on.

Gigili

@RegDwightѬſ道 "Useful" isn't the word.

user19161

@KitFox Maybe that was 50 years ago.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Gigili it is.

I can see it quite clearly without glasses.

aedia λ

@KitFox I don't want to know what'll happen if she dares buy him the $1 version.

Gigili

16:46

Okay, I flagged you.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Carlo_R.

I said "depend from what they do". In the image above, for example, they do the best thing.

KitFox

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Jinx!

user19161

@Carlo_R depend on, not depend from

RegDwight Ѭſ道

16:47

I came here with this exact URL in my pocket.

Carlo_R.

@WillHunting :) - Addendum: The man do the best thing. I would say.

KitFox

@RegDwightѬſ道 I would probably laugh harder if I could read German.

user19161

@KitFox She looks like a man.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

KitFox

spittake

Rob

16:50

She will

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Okay, it gets better.

KitFox

That's terrible.

Rob

That
is
better

KitFox

Not offensive. Just stupid.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 This is not good.

KitFox

16:51

Man, I miss me some Mickey's.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@KitFox I knew you would post that.

KitFox

Get stung.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Which is why I didn't post it.

KitFox

Thank you.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

KitFox

16:52

Well, see, that's helpful.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yes, for wives and hubbies alike.

I don't quite get the next one:

Carlo_R.

The woman's role in Latin cultures:

KitFox

@RegDwightѬſ道 He's frustrated because she's obstinate?

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 Neither do I.

KitFox

This one is a fun read.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

16:54

@KitFox ah, so that is frustration.

user19161

@KitFox I use lysol too!

KitFox

To safeguard your dainty feminine allure?

I cannot fathom douching with Lysol.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well I gotta commute. Before that, def war!

KitFox

That makes about as much sense as drinking it.

user19161

It is just a germ killer.

JSBᾶngs

16:56

i can't read anything on the douche ad

aedia λ

@KitFox Ow ow ow ow ow cringes at the thought

I was trying to forget that that was ever a thing!

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox is it lysol lysol, or just some other product made by lysol?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@JSBᾶngs replaced with XXL version.

KitFox

@JSBᾶngs I can't quite tell.

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox now that Reg's posted the huge version, it seems that it is Lysol

KitFox

16:59

It "truly cleanses the vaginal canal even in the presence of mucous matter." My goodness, the smut they published back then.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…