English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

David Wallace

00:30

'night.

KitFox

01:20

I'm leaving EL&U forever. Bye!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

01:33

@KitFox what?

Wait... is this some sort of april fool's joke?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

01:45

@KitFox So for someone who quit you sure have an odd way of not-posting-questions-or-answers-after-quitting :p

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It must be, but it is a cruel joke.

KitFox

Well, it's less funny if you guess it right away.

Cerberus

@KitFox Wow, forever took damn long! We missed you.

KitFox

Hahaha.

Well, I really for real had a question, after spending a whole hour trying to think of a funny joke question.

Cerberus

So let's see whether we have any joke questions yet...

A reeel question?

KitFox

01:47

Well, it's not a particularly good question, but it's legit.

Anyway, I do have to go to bed now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think it's a good question

KitFox

Thanks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It has research. and it's about etymology, which is a great topic but etymology online makes almost all those questions GR.

KitFox

Plus I am actually interested in the answer.

:D

OK. Good night!

Chat tomorrow!

Don't let the Martians eat you!

Just sneeze on them! (That makes them shrivel up and die.)

Also, you can play along by starring my farewell message, should you so desire.

blows kisses

poof

Cerberus

Commented.

Bye!!

OED has nothing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

01:51

I'm reading the oed now

so @Cerberus when the OED says Etymology: < shill n. does that mean the verb comes from the noun?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I find that amusing because the verb is attested 2 years before the noun

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm yes. My OED gives the same dates.

By the way, the OED normally doesn't use "<", thankfully (because it is confusing).

f. = from

So where did you see that?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

oed.com

Cerberus

Ah.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

01:57

oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/178128

Cerberus

I can't see that without installing my VPN.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

really?

it's geo-ip blocked?

hm

Cerberus

Apparently.

I remember I used to be able to look some words up freely.

By the way, do you know how CETA is progressing?

Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement

The Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) is a proposed copyright and free trade agreement between Canada and the European Union. An important and controversial part of the Agreement is stricter enforcement of intellectual property, including liability for Internet Service Providers, a ban on technologies that can be used to circumvent copyright, and other provisions similar to controversial ACTA, DMCA, PIPA, and SOPA, as below: History CETA is Canada's biggest bilateral initiative since NAFTA. It was hatched as a result of a joint study "Assessing the Costs and Bene...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

no idea

Cerberus

I have added some critical information to the article, btw.

It used to say nothing about the provisions, all smooth-talking copied from the Canadian government's website.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:03

yeah I think I've heard of this before.

It calls for things like prohibiting Canadian companies from selling "parmesan" cheese, because that's a place name or something asinine like that.

It's like, come on. It's a kind of product. The name of that kind of product is entrenched in the language. Don't try to use trademark treaties to change the fucking language.

Cerberus

Yeah, it is completely ridiculous.

One of the worst aspects of the EU is regulations about local products.

We have things in the supermarket called "white cheese blocks", no joke.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

some of the other stuff I find unremarkable. Like, copyright extension to 70 years: for all practical purposes that's irrelevant because the US stomps over everyone's copyright laws where they are weaker than their own.

Cerberus

Which everybody can see is feta.

How do you mean stomp?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I mean, our european-style cheese doesn't even come from europe. Most of it is locally made. So... nobody would be able to buy feta anymore? from anywhere?

Cerberus

Yup.

That's how it is here, more or less.

So it has to have another label.

So it is a meaningless, stupid rule.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:07

@Cerberus Well, like if you want to publish a video on youtube. You have to comply with US copyright laws. Actually you have to comply with the strictest intersection of your country's copyright laws AND the US's copyright laws

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That is only because YT is American.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus most of the internet is american

Cerberus

On a Canadian site, you can do whatever Canadian law allows you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus sure. But that site probably could be sued if they made the product available to the US.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Much of it isn't, and I think non-American sites will grow as American sites get stifled.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The US can sue all they want, but if the new Youtube is hosted and located in Canada, nothing they can do.

CDNs might be a problem, though.

So you can't have those. So American viewers will have slower connections to new YT. But the rest of the world ain't bovvered.

The only thing the US can do is stuff like Megaupload. But that will be impossible if you are located in a safe country like Sweden or China.

Or Russia.

Well, maybe better pick Sweden, hehe.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:12

First of all, the US is increasingly taking action against foreign sites. So if the Canadian site is hosted in one of the normal domains (.com, .net, etc) then the US has the power to force registrars to seize the domain.

(This has happened, recently, and has yet to be ruled illegal)

Secondly, for English-language content, if you don't have the American audience you don't have an audience.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You would pick a .ca site, or better, a .se site. And, sure, the US can close off its own market, but that's all they can do if the country it is located in considers the site legal.

So websites are certainly better protected in countries that have better laws.

So there is no reason to pass CETA etc. because "it doesn't matter anyway".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, I'm not talking about launching a site. I'm talking about publishing content on a site where stuff gets published. The difference being that if I'm a creator I want to choose a venue that has viewers, and it's problematic if I can't because none of the sites with viewers have a .ca domain.

Cerberus

And don't you feel patriotic about the EU Commission's forcing stuff down your throat that will be voted into oblivion here?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, CETA and its ilk will be used as tokens to barter for other agreements that the governments feel are more pressing.

Like, our government sells all our copyright laws to Hollywood so that the US will allow in our softwood lumber.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I'm not exactly sure what you mean. That it is better to have a .com name ceteris paribus? Sure, but my only point is that it can help people in your country and elswhere if those laws/treaties are blocked.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:22

@Cerberus No, what I mean is that when Mr. Shiny and New has a video to post online, he doesn't go shopping around for sites based on their domain names. He shops for sites that people actually already use, such as youtube.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 So you don't care? I thought I heard you say other things in the past.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Sure. So what is your point exactly? And does it contradict my point that CETA, ACTA etc. should be blocked?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And if the popular sites are all American, then that means the audience will be limited because he has to use a less popular site. But let's say he finds a site that will accept his video. If that site is located in Canada, but has a .com domain, the US could still shut it down.

Cerberus

You've already said that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, I do care, but it's clear that the government doesn't care.

Cerberus

For the record, my point is not that we can prevent all bad things by blocking those laws.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, alas. And apparently our "government" (the EU Commission) doesn't care either; but at least the EU Parliament cares.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:24

Believe me: I'd love to force the government to put all the foreign trade agreements on one big table and have honest people go over them and throw out the bad stuff.

Cerberus

Right, that is what you said earlier.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah, I did find it funny that some of the stuff in that Wikipedia article resembles things that the EU parliament has voted was illegal or otherwise rejected.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Exactly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway I don't really have a point or a position on all of this beyond my usual distaste for increased copyright and trademark laws.

Cerberus

So just picking a fight, huh.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:26

who's picking a fight?

you brought this all up

Cerberus

It's OK.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It was meant as a light-hearted comment.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I was just sitting here trying to figure out the etymology of shill

Cerberus

So shill out!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Is this some kind of scam? You come in here, start throwing political punches, then accuse me of picking a fight? looks around for shills or other accomplices

So today is Earth Hour

Cerberus

I meant when you seemed to suggest that blocking those laws didn't matter instead of agreeing with me as you were supposed to.

But I knew you hadn't suddenly changed positions.

Oh, yes, some lights on bridges here were dimmed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:30

@Cerberus oh THAT

no, what I meant was that I can't really summon the necessary outrage at the moment.

To some degree blocking those laws probably won't matter to me.

CETA does not appear as controversial or damaging (on the surface) as ACTA.

Hm, almost like they planned this: make a bad treaty, then make a really really bad treaty, and by perceptual contrast the first treaty seems good.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yup, just ordinary negotiation tactics: start with a very low bid.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:45

Or it's just the government using too many tentacles and not communicating between them properly.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh, yes, that too. There are many factions with most governments.

> At a hearing for Parliament, a group of Australian intellectual property experts explained why Australia should reconsider its support of ACTA, and the chair of the committee that hosted the hearing admitted that "this is a controversial treaty nationally and internationally...." If this keeps up, perhaps the US will just have an agreement with itself. (sic, sic, sic)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Don't forget Canada

@DavidWallace No, it's the property that's intellectual, not the experts

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Better now?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Have you already ratified it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Our current government just hands over whatever the US wants

Cerberus

And Parliament?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:54

Our government IS composed of a parlianment.

Cerberus

?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

for all intents and purposes that's all we have.

Cerberus

You have a cabinet of sorts.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

they are members of parliament

Cerberus

An apple is a fruit.

So you are saying that your statement also applies to Parliament as a whole?

I mean, a large majority.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:56

Well, the current parliament forms a majority government for the Conservative party.

And the tyrant in charge of that party controls everything with an iron fist.

Cerberus

Even when there are large protests and petitions?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus depends

But I haven't heard much about CETA and all the noise about ACTA is dying down.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Still, I have some hope, because Australia was a fierce champion of internet censorship.

And still is, in general.

I mean, even the American parliament didn't go through with SOPA.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, the public was able to rally around copyright reform a few times here. But the damn government keeps bringing the same bill back, again and again. only this time they have a majority. So they will probably steamroll it through.

@Cerberus this time.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, sucks.

America is making itself so immensely unpopular everywhere around the world.

David Wallace

03:02

@Cerberus Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

Cerberus

Anti-Americanism has become stronger and stronger over the past decades.

@DavidWallace Mais la chose's aggrandit comme un ballon, et puis il va BANG!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, I should head off to bed.

Cerberus

Bai!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But before I go, this pic of a girl struggling to read a book in Chinese is priceless:

Cerberus

Awww.

Nice communist guy on it too.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

03:05

That's how I feel, mystery girl, whenever I try to read your language too.

Interestingly the Chinese government claims to have a 96% literacy rate. Which seems pretty laughable. But then they also claim that you only need 950 characters to be literate, which is also pretty much nonsense.

anyway: zaijian!

Cerberus

Heh.

David Wallace

@Cerberus "la chose's aggrandit" ! Really??

That reminds me of that book by Louis de Berniere in which the Turkish guy and the Italian guy speak to each other in broken French that nobody else can understand.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Yes, it does—what do you mean?

@DavidWallace But but...

David Wallace

Oh you meant "s'aggrandit" I think. Sorry, that should have been obvious to me.

You have invented an entirely new kind of misplaced apostrophe.

Cerberus

Eh, oh.

Yes.

I typed too fast.

Call it an Anglicism if you will.

They should spell chosesaggrandit anyway because French is an inarticulate bunch of attached syllables anyway.

David Wallace

03:19

According to one of my grandfathers, during WWII, phonetically spelt NZ schoolboy French was more impenetrable to the Japanese than any code they could think up.

Cerberus

Haha they really used that?

Cool.

By the way, this is good material for you-know.

David Wallace

Oh yes. It was all a bit low level, kind of "esska voo voolay" sort of stuff. But I've been assured that it worked.

Cerberus

04:10

Haha.

Perfect.

Mahnax

05:05

Hello.

Cerberus

Hello!

1

Q: QUestion about word

My second cousin from abroad says people in New Zealand sometimes use the word sushi to refer to women. She was not sure which part of the country. Perhaps it was near the border with Australia? If this word is used, where? And why sushi? I haven't been to NZ since the seventies. Thank you, Marj...

Mahnax

How are you this fine morning?

Cerberus

What to make of this?

Good!

Except that I'm going to bed in a second.

Mahnax

Ah, fun.

I don't want to make anything of it, I'm too mad.

I might vote to close just to relieve a bit of this anger.

seethes

Cerberus

Awww what's going on?

Parents?

Mahnax

05:09

Work.

I have been scheduled to work Friday, Saturday, Sunday, for the fifth week in a row.

Cerberus

Wow.

Mahnax

Frigging weekend nazis.

Cerberus

Can't you tell them you really have to be home on Sunday?

Mahnax

Nope.

Cerberus

Really?

Mahnax

05:10

Once a schedule is made, it's made.

Cerberus

You have no chance to protest?

Mahnax

I'm fine with working Sunday, Friday night and Saturday are the fun times.

@Cerberus Nope.

Also, work was a nightmare tonight.

But let's not get into that.

You should be going to bed, doggy.

Cerberus

Yeah I should.

So what did they do? Treat you like a slave?

Or horrible customers?

Mahnax

Endless onslaughts of orders, and I was trying to do drive-through, KFC, and closing all at the same time.

Plus, two of my co-workers were high as kites.

Cerberus

Jesus. That sucks. Get some good food and think of a way to prank people's asses off.

You have my sympathy.

See you tomorrow!

Mahnax

05:16

Heh, thanks.

Bye!

Cerberus

Adios ende ciao!

Mahnax

06:31

@Reg found you on Reddit:

Cerberus

08:02

@Mahnax Awww cute! I liked your edits by the way. Don't hesitate to comment too.

Or ask a question.

Or answer one.

You know the drill.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

10:16

@Mahnax no wonder you did, I'm a piece of primary rock there.

user19161

10:33

Happy April Fool's Day everyone!

user19161

Why are the latest three questions on sushi and by different people?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

4

Q: Question about word

My second cousin from abroad says people in New Zealand sometimes use the word sushi to refer to women. She was not sure which part of the country. Perhaps it was near the border with Australia? If this word is used, where? And why sushi? I haven't been to NZ since the seventies. Thank you, Marj...

word-usage adverbs usage word

Great title, excellent tags.

user19161

I just realised there are 5 sushi questions, must be a joke for the occasion.

Robusto

I like that NZ and Australia suddenly share a border.

Tectonic shifts must have happened overnight.

user19161

The border is made of water. QED.

Robusto

10:39

Then Massachusetts shares a border with Indonesia.

user19161

Everyone shares a border with everyone else too if borders can be made of anything.

Robusto

Yes. Except I hate it when the Dutch fart and mess up the air quality. Sometimes I wonder how Belgium can stand it.

user19161

1

Q: Sushi used for some kind of food

I live in Kaikoura, in the South Island of New Zealand. My friend told me that there are some countries where the word "sushi" means some kind of fish and rice dish. Can anyone confirm whether this is true? I've only ever heard its more usual meaning, of a girl who likes showing off her boob...

multiple-meanings

user19161

GR

Robusto

Maybe the joke relates to the common trope involving lady parts smelling like fish.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

10:42

@Robusto that's part of the joke I guess.

user19161

I think all the sushi questions are from the same guy who might even be Thursagen or web maoist.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I am closing all this nonsense.

Robusto

@WillHunting The two are not mutually exclusive.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

0

Q: Help me to write short article about me

I want to write a short sentences about me and use it in my Website.I know what I say but I can't write it in good and attractive structure. my website should be shown my career and works. I say to you same information about me and you please arrange this sentences. firstname is AmirHossein and...

writing writing-style

Matt Эллен

OH! it's april the first. I forgot

I'll blame this hangover

user19161

10:45

@RegDwightѬſ道 OT

user19161

I love my two-letter abbreviations: OT, GR, TL, NC, NR, ED.

Matt Эллен

> I know you understand what I want :) please help me

I should put this on my business cards.

user19161

I am trying to understand why some people are so evil. It is a mystery.

user19161

That is why I went into determinism and free will.

Gigili

@RegDwight: Could you edit the newest Q?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

10:51

@Gigili Even better. I have answered it.

user19161

@Gigili What's up?

Gigili

Removing the Iran-Tehran part would be great, I feel awful.

user19161

@Gigili Why? There is nothing offensive there.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Gigili I don't understand, either.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…