English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

RegDwight Ѭſ道

22:00

0

Q: Difference/Usage of Contributor or Donator

I am not a native English speaker, so forgive if I ask a trivial question for native English speakers. When someone donates money for charity, is such a person called a 'donator' or 'contributor'? I thought contributing would be have to do with really add a service/work to something (instead of...

Gah. translation word

The Dutch don't have a native word for "donateur" @Cer?

Also, I wouldn't have expected a Dutchman to produce "contributing would be have to do with add"...

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 There are gever, sponsor, donateur, begunstiger...

But donateur is the most common word for private persons donating to charity.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Looks like a typo (remove be).

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus "to do with add" is not exacly right, either.

An Italian might say, "to do with to add".

I'm just trying to translate it right back into Dutch to understand the structure.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 I noticed that too. But he uses the gerund in the same paragraph, so who knows what happened there.

Oh, and there's also weldoener.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Wohltäter.

David Wallace

Is there something wrong with the question Reg? Looks like a nice one to me.

Cerberus

22:09

@RegDwightѬſ道 ...heeft te maken met echt werk bijdragen...

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Förderer, Sponsor, Geber, Donor, Begünstiger, Beitragszahler...

@Cerberus ah yes thanks.

Cerberus

Förderer!?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yeah. From fördern.

Not to be confused with fordern (request, demand).

Cerberus

Oh right.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@DavidWallace no problems that I can see. The ones I saw are fixed now.

Cerberus

22:10

So bevoordelaar.

David Wallace

So we've moved outside the normal mode of operation around here then?

The "Reg posts a question he doesn't like, and we all poke fun at it" mode!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus Yeah. Though in German befördern would be either promoting someone, or transporting them.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Oh, it is even closer to bevorderaar.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@DavidWallace if you poke fun at something, that's your choice, not mine.

Cerberus

Vorderen = fördern.

Bevorderen = fordern.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

22:13

@Cerberus vorderen = front. As opposed to hinteren.

Cerberus

But the literal meaning of "transporting" has been lost.

Yeah know, the "front" connotation is very clear in Dutch too.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Ah okay.

Cerberus

You move someone/something forward into the right direction.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Ha.

So you think they are etymologically related?

That never occurred to me in German.

What's with the spelling and all.

Cerberus

I think so.

The umlaut may be because one comes from a causative or something?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

22:15

> aus althochdeutsch ford(a)rōn, eigentlich „verlangen“, woraus sich das mittelhochdeutsche vo(r)dern bildete. Das Wort ist seit dem 8. Jahrhundert belegt.

Cerberus

That is: I am sure fordern and bevorderen are related. And that fördern and vorderen are related.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

So no.

That's a ver-, not a vor-.

Cerberus

Huh?

That is just the "meaning".

RegDwight Ѭſ道

It's also the morphology.

For + daron.

Cerberus

To me, vorderen also has a sense of making someone put forward the good you claim. But that may be folk etymology.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

22:16

That's what I'm thinking.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 I don't understand.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

It's not "langen nach vorne". It's "ver + langen".

Cerberus

But what does the form of verlangen have to do with the origin of fördern?

In Dutch, vorderen and bevorderen are etymologially related, says WNT.

So the German words must be too.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Of course they are.

I am not talking about vorderen and bevorderen, DUH.

Cerberus

Then what?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

22:19

Obviously one is just a prefix slapped onto the other.

@Cerberus I am talking about the supposed relation between fordern and vordern, which I dispute.

Cerberus

Yes, well, you never know: it could be that both words have converged due to folk etymology (often happens). But that is not the case, apparently.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Why? It seems extremely unlikely that G and D should have a pair of corresponding words that are not related.

Corresponding both in meaning and in form.

But let me consult some German etymological dictionaries, then.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well "it seems extremely unlikely" is not how etymological research works.

Which is why I'm consulting dictionaries as well.

Too bad I don't have Kluge handy.

JSBᾶngs

3

Q: Partially same authors

If I cite two works in two subsequent sentences in my document, and they have several common co-authors, but also several different ones, I might say: "Partially same authors argue in (2) that..." but is there a better and more common expression for this? Cause "partially same authors" has only 1...

citation

why is this still open?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Hey no stealing my lines.

I didn't want to singlehandedly send it on to Writers, not after the recent blog post that said we should be careful about playing pingpong with questions.

So I've left it to regular users.

Cerberus

22:34

@RegDwightѬſ道 Okay, this is more interesting than I thought.

JSBᾶngs

well, i already voted

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Plus I wasn't sure if the writers would be so excited. I thought the answer was pretty obvious: "Some of the same authors". Turns out the only person to suggest that did so in a comment, while the answers are way too complicated.

Cerberus

We have fern/ver, vor/für/voor, and fort/voort.

JSBᾶngs

plus, at writers it would be a dup, i'm pretty sure, so i say we just close it outright

Cerberus

They all come from the same Proto-Indo-European root *per-.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

22:35

@JSBᾶngs Be my guest.

Cerberus

I think there was also a common Proto-Germanic root like *vor-.

Fördern probably comes from fort through fürder.

Fordern comes from vor through vorder.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Lustig.

Cerberus

In (Proto-)Dutch, German fürder and vorder were probably both vorder, which is why the verbs converged in form.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Ha!

That was what I was saying all along.

But yeah. The rest I wasn't.

Cerberus

But the German word and its Dutch equivalent are the "same" verb for each pair.

So German fordern / Dutch vorderen "demand" are the same verb.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

22:41

Yes. I never disputed that part.

Cerberus

And förden / vorderen "progress" are also the same verb.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Neither that.

Cerberus

(I forgot to tell you that we have an intransitive verb vorderen "progress".)

Okay.

Then what did you dispute?

I imagined the split between fördern and fordern to be much more recent than it is in fact.

Perhaps that's what you meant to dispute.

Pretty interesting.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well, in the most simple terms available to me right now, what I was saying was that in German, fordern and vordern are not related, and in Dutch they are only spelled the same due to convergence/folk etymology. Fördern never entered the building.

Cerberus

Moral of the story: voor/vor/für/voort/fort/ver/fern/for/per/pro are all the same word!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

22:45

I've seen worse.

What's with whiskey and Undine.

Cerberus

Huh? Wait, what? Vordern??

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Goeden morgen.

Cerberus

groans

So you have three verbs.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

No.

One is an adjective.

Cerberus

Oh, ah OK.

So vordern (Dutch: voren) is directly related to fördern, so?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

22:47

Look, Cerberus. You would help both of us immensely if you read the stuff you post, in addition to the stuff I post. For best results, try chronological order.

Cerberus

And both are remotely related to fordern.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yeah.

Cerberus

Oh shit.

Vitaly

@Cerberus By the way, in our current active war, you can go 97% on Surge with Malort and 10 Blood Grunts. So it would be good if our mercs saw one of our officers active once in a while. And you can even speed it up!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That was unexpected.

Cerberus

22:48

See, I confused the German words. I had to look up what fordern/vordern/fördern meant so many times that I got on the wrong track (looking at the wrong word) without noticing.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

The ways of teh Cerberus are curious.

Cerberus

Because, as you know, I could not correctly use any of those words.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Can you now?

Cerberus

I can read them perfectly, in context.

@RegDwightѬſ道 No.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Uhleck.

Cerberus

22:49

I already forgot which means which in fördern/fordern.

But I got vordern nailed.

Because that is a difference that I can understand.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I think we should just drop this shit and use jQuery.

Cerberus

@Vitaly Hmm OK sure!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus create an all-new separate deck if you're going to the trouble in the first place, lest you put it on defense or something.

Cerberus

@Vitaly I have only 6 Blood Grunts...

@RegDwightѬſ道 Yup.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Six should be enough for some 80%.

Cerberus

22:53

Do I add something else, or is there no substitute?

Oh.

So no substitute?

Or is this some April's Fool joke?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I'm thinking. But I'm stupid.

Cerberus

No comment.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus it is not. Is it April yet?

Cerberus

Suggestion:

Life your head up from the sand.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I am using 8 grunts with two other cards, but that's on manual. Semi-manual, even.

Cerberus

22:54

You can't hide from the world forever, nor from time.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Cerberus, again, I am sticking my head in there looking for you.

You should switch with Ikarus, then I'll lift my head.

Cerberus

But he's a loser.

So is there a permanent auto button?

Won my first battle.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Of course there is. There has always been.

Cerberus

Where is it?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

What's new is the unpermanent auto button.

@Cerberus Lower right corner now.

Cerberus

22:57

Ahh thanks.

Vitaly

@Cerberus Why bother with Auto if you can just speed it up? Or better yet, you could use both Auto and the speed-up.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus Again, just to suit you. Used to be up in the sky, but got moved to the nether regions.

Wow. 9/1.

And hey! Look who's right beneath you.

Cerberus

@Vitaly Of course, I was going for auto + Cheat Engine.

@RegDwightѬſ道 I like down under.

David Wallace

@Cerberus I like it here too!

Cerberus

@DavidWallace I knew that would summon you, Australasia together with the obscene connotations.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

23:01

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Haha wtf.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

It appears Ikarus is indeed a loser.

When compared to Cerberus, that is.

Cerberus

See?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I know.

Which is why I made the screenshot.

It is sorted differently for each of us.

Cerberus

I know.

I don't know what I meant.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

23:02

I'm sitting on a full bar and will be at 14/0 in no time. Waiting for the other war to end.

Vitaly

@RegDwightѬſ道 Um, no. It's sorted just the same for all of us, with the exception of your own account.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Vitaly Yes. So it is sorted differently for all of us.

Gigili

I like it when people enter the room and try to figure out what you're talking about, then they leave.

Cerberus

Haha you are like Mediaeval theologists.

Vitaly

Meh.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

23:03

Haha.

Vitaly

So @Cerberus, what time is it in your notification area (system tray)?

Cerberus

@Vitaly In which programme?

Oh. 1.04 AM.

Vitaly

@Cerberus In Windows?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

The seventh from the right.

Cerberus

Wai?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

23:04

01:04 here as well.

But no AM nonsense.

Cerberus

1.04 means first of April.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

You and your April jokes.

Vitaly

@Cerberus because I got you to see the CE dialog box :P satisfied

Cerberus

Oh, you mean the hour? That's 1:04.

@Vitaly What? What?

Dialog box?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

It's like a circle, but with corners.

Cerberus

23:06

I see no circle.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

CORNERS.

Cerberus

@Vitaly If this is a 1.04 joke, I don't get it.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

It's the first of June anyway.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 I see no corners. I only see a rectangle.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Oh yes, time flies.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Like a banana.

Cerberus

23:07

But at least it's June AM.

Vitaly

@Cerberus Are you sure you were paying enough attention when you launched CE?

Cerberus

@Vitaly Ohh you mean Cheat Engine. I thought Windows CE.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That's what I was thinking as well.

Cerberus

I still don't get it, but we're getting closer.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

And it's funnier that way.

Cerberus

23:07

Indeed.

What does Cheat E. have to do with my system time?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I mean, just imagine the horror of launching Windows CE by accident and then not paying attention.

Not enough attention, even.

Gold.

@Cerberus It speeds it up, duh. That's why it's September already.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Haha. Is that what he meant?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I have no idea who means what. But this is the Incomprehensible Room.

Cerberus

If so, it is pretty funny, but the wrong threading messed up his poor joke.

If he had replied to some line containing June, I might have got it.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Lies.

Cerberus

23:10

Oh, well, it still goes into the books as funneh.

Vitaly

So you make up a joke for me, then discuss it in my absence, and finally conclude that the joke you made up for me is funny. I like it. Go on.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 No no, I really might have. April -> June -> acceleration -> launched something...ding!

@Vitaly So that was not what you meant?

Then Reg is funneh. Either of you has to be funneh, cause it ain't me.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Vitaly — А вы что, и есть за меня будете? — Ага!

Vitaly

@RegDwightѬſ道 Hahaha.

Cerberus

1 min ago, by Cerberus

@Vitaly So that was not what you meant?

Or was it?

Vitaly

23:15

@Cerberus You really are impressive at messing up everyone's jokes. Seriously, just launch CE and pay attention to any windows that might pop up.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Okay WTF I just saw a unicorn popup on the main site, in the style of that Microsoft Clippy, but i clicked away by accident before getting to make a screenshot and now I can't get it again.

3

Vitaly

On that note, I give up. AFK.

Cerberus

@Vitaly Oh!! Now I finally understand. I never read that window so I didn't even remember it existed. Pretty funny indeed if you read the prices. I thought you were making the joke, and that I had to watch the system clock.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

1

A: It's Clip-cloppy!

Permanent* What's not to love about a helpful unicorn paper-clip? Obviously it's here to stay. *Hopefully

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Seriously, did you understand what Vit meant or is it weird that I didn't understand what he was getting at?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

23:23

I still don't understand what either of you are blathering about.

But I think we all agreed that it's tremendously funny.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Okay, launch CE, and don't click away the pop-up.

It is funny.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I don't have CE.

Cerberus

Ahh OK.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Neither of them.

Cerberus

I have both.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

23:24

You are my counterbalance.

And hero.

Cerberus

You know it is a free programme, right?

@RegDwightѬſ道 I've always known I would be someone's CE hero some day!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well what moron would pay for Windows CE?

Cerberus

Yeah if it hadn't come with the phone...

Which I didn't pay for either, btw.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

What a cheapskate.

Cerberus

Yes.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

23:27

It looks like you have to tab out of the page for a while, then back in.

Cerberus

Oh! Oh!

I saw it!!

On Ling. And it had different options. But now it refuses to come back.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yeah. Mine had a different set of options, too. The above picture is via the Teachers' Lounge.

Cerberus

Ah.

So is that lounge fun anyway?

Gigili

Umm, I can't see it. Is it a 20k-30k-whatever k feature?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus I guess so. This is the first time I have visited in years.

I stopped visiting shortly after that Kosmo incident. I couldn't bear it. I only checked back a couple times when there was an official chatcast, or when I got pinged.

Cerberus

23:36

@RegDwightѬſ道 Ah OK, understandable.

@Gigili It is a super helpful, useful feature.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Gigili open the site in a tab, go for a walk.

Cerberus

How can you even use this site without the paperclorn?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

1

A: "Decide on" vs. "decide"

You have cited an extraneous preposition, i.e., one that could be removed from a sentence without any loss or change of meaning. Generally speaking, it's best to omit them altogether. Here are a few more examples: We need to clean (up) the kitchen. He's standing inside (of) the fence. I...

JR is in berserk mode. Quote + bold + italics.

Cerberus

Hmm yes.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

And caps + bold.

Cerberus

23:37

I suppose it is sort of clear.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

No. No. Not enough cowbell.

Gigili

I'm off for a walk.

(Just to fool that tab)

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well you're only fooling us. Go post it to that tab.

Gigili

Ah yes. Okay.

Cerberus

Oooh I've eaten a hot waffle with home-made raspberry jam and whipped cream.

Super delicious.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

23:46

Wife plus guest back home, I'm out for today!

Night all.

Cerberus

Have fun!

Gigili

Good night.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…