English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Matt Эллен

18:00

sarcasm used to cover up the desperation of the soldiers

it's not hard to figure out, but it's not something I think we'll find evidence of

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 Our truth of the day. How sweet.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs possibly, but this is not a particularly notable use of words. I've often said something like "gee, that went according to plan" when I meant the opposite, and I can assure you that my use of sarcasm was completely original and uninformed by world war 1.

KitFox

Right. If he were asking about fugazi, on the other hand...

Matt Эллен

aye

KitFox

Or flak jacket or fubar or snafu.

Cerberus

18:02

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I would like to see an example of the context that the OP has in mind.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox isn't a flack jacket a jacket that protects you from explosive debris (flack)?

(i.e. a rather unremarkable word formation)

KitFox

Flak jacket

A flak jacket or flak vest is a form of protective clothing designed to provide protection from shrapnel and other indirect low velocity projectiles. Today it frequently refers to ballistic vests, particularly Type III and above, which have added steel, titanium, ceramic or polyethylene plates which can withstand high-powered rounds such as those from rifles. It may also be spelled "flack jacket". History Anecdotes describing garments designed to protect the wearer from penetrating weapons can be found far back into recorded history. Two types of protective garment from the Ameri...

> (flak itself is an abbreviation for the German word "Fliegerabwehrkanone" (anti-aircraft gun)

So no. Surprise!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Er, so "flak jacket" is unremarkable. "flak" is remarkable. There you have it.

KitFox

OK. Given.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I guess I didn't realize that the word "flak" was so recently coined.

user19161

18:06

I only capped on 21 days, not even halfway to the epic badge.

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Surprise!

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I even have to look it up.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yay! I learned something today! But not from ELU. From the chat room!

We should close the main site and just bring people here.

KitFox

AUGH! There is a rhythmic rattling going on in my office and it is making my head ache.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Shut your mouth!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox boo! I hate unnecessary noises like that.

@KitFox sorry mom.

KitFox

18:08

Oh phew. Fixed it.

I just hit it and hit it until it stopped.

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox that's how i solve all my problems!

KitFox

yay! I feel so close to you now.

user19161

@JSBᾶngs That's how I fix the TV.

Gigili

Nichts ist übrig geblieben.

At what speed do you chat?

(753768732)

Robusto

@KitFox See, this is the kind of thing that gets flagged in other chats. Context is everything.

KitFox

18:12

That would have been ironic.

Robusto

I know. Whenever I see a flag pop up in here, it's usually like that. Even if it's something profoundly, aggressively hostile, it might simply be ironic.

KitFox

So my head doesn't feel so much like it is going to explode and the caffeine has propped me up well enough.

I'm not sure I can justify leaving early.

Even though no one would know but us.

user19161

@Robusto Then you need to go to the other room and read the entire transcript to figure out the context.

Robusto

@WillHunting Haha ... like I'm going to do that.

user19161

@KitFox "Us" sounds like Smiggle.

Robusto

18:14

As Jeff in Community says: "If I wanted to do actual work I wouldn't have gone to community college."

user19161

@Gigili What does the number mean?

KitFox

Hey @JSB, how many sacraments do you observe?

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox ALL OF THE SACRAMENTS

Robusto

My favorite is Sacramento, CA.

KitFox

@JSBᾶngs giggles

And how many would they number?

user19161

18:17

Over 9000.

JSBᾶngs

the orthodox do not have a traditional list of 7 sacraments. however, all of the 7 used by catholics are also used by the orthodox in some form

to wit: baptism, chrismation, confession, annointing with oil, marriage, holy eucharist, ordination

KitFox

So you've got more than the seven?

That's only...

Oh. You fixed it.

JSBᾶngs

(i added the last one)

icons are also considered sacramental-ish

KitFox

I don't understand.

What do you do with the icons?

Robusto

@JSBᾶngs The catholics call them baptism, confession, holy communion, confirmation, matrimony, holy orders, and extreme unction.

KitFox

18:20

Yeah, but the Catholics take all the fun out of it.

user19161

0

Q: Is it "a tough row to hoe?", or "a tough road to hold?"

Is it an old farming metaphor, or a military saying? Where did this(these) saying(s) originate?

saying

user19161

Interesting question!

JSBᾶngs

> The so-called “seven” sacraments are really not an exhaustive list (by Orthodox understanding). For those with the eyes to see, the whole world is a sacrament – all things are properly a means of receiving the grace of God. The One-Storey universe is the arena in which we encounter and know God – everywhere and at all times. In such a world, the character of the Christian life is measured in how we ourselves accept the reality of God which is given to us at all times and everywhere.

KitFox

It's "a tough row to hoe."

JSBᾶngs

^ from fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/the-sacrament-of-mercy

KitFox

18:21

Sounds Universalist-ish.

JSBᾶngs

@Robusto yes. confirmation ~ chrismation, and anointing ~ extreme unction

Robusto

@KitFox There was fun in any of that?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting Smiggle? Please tell me you didn't mean "Sméagol"?

KitFox

EXTREME unction.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I misspelled. lol

JSBᾶngs

18:22

@KitFox mostly you kiss them

Robusto

@KitFox Definitely part of the X Games. The part where you die.

KitFox

@Robusto No. That's my point.

@Robusto Hahaha

Gigili

@WillHunting It's what is shown when the tab is inactive or something.

KitFox

@JSBᾶngs Oh. That's a ritual?

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox it's not a specific ritual. it's something you do every time you come into church (and at home, and anywhere else you come across an icon)

KitFox

18:24

More like a handshake then, except more personal?

JSBᾶngs

an icon is quasi-sacramental in that it makes visible and tangible the invisible spiritual presence of Christ and the sains

that's what i mean by it

KitFox

OK. I think I understand.

JSBᾶngs

when you enter an orthodox church, it's customary to reverence the icons of christ and the virgin (and others, if you want) with a kiss and a bow

Robusto

Which is where we get the notion of iconoclasm.

KitFox

What about the Bible?

JSBᾶngs

18:25

right, because a bunch of fundies decided this was a bad idea and went on a spree of vandalism

@KitFox we kiss that, too

KitFox

Same idea? Visible and tangible word of God?

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox yes. it also indicates general reverence for god's word

KitFox

Are there icons of God? Or just Christ et al?

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox there are some icons that depict God the Father, but that's considered non-canonical and it's pretty rare

KitFox

Why is that?

JSBᾶngs

18:27

"non-canonical" here means "disallowed by canon law"

KitFox

Is it like writing out God's name?

Vitaly

And you do this with icons too?

JSBᾶngs

because the Father did not become incarnate in the flesh, so he doesn't have a human nature that can be depicted in art

KitFox

Interesting.

user19161

@JSBᾶngs That is what I wanted to guess. Jinx.

KitFox

18:28

So if you draw a picture of Him, that would be what, like vanity?

JSBᾶngs

the picture of the Father as an old man with a beard is, at best, a metaphor, while an icon of christ is a picture of an actual person who lived in the world and can be depicted

likewise with the depiction of the Spirit as a dove

KitFox

But why is that non-canonical? Is a metaphoric representation of God offensive?

JSBᾶngs

@Vitaly those are orthodox christians, no? though i've never seen a bar like that before

Vitaly

@JSBᾶngs yes they are, of the Russian orthodox church

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox it's not offensive, which is why it exists here and there, but it's not nearly as widespread. the idea, i think, is to discourage the idea that god actually is an old guy with a beard

KitFox

18:31

Hmm. I see.

JSBᾶngs

whereas there's no problem with encouraging people to think that Jesus was a younger guy with a beard, since that's exactly what he was

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs Huh, but chrisma means anointment.

KitFox

There is a lot of anointing in rituals, I imagine.

Which reminds me of something totally unrelated.

user19161

@KitFox Yes I am waiting to hear it.

Cerberus

@Vitaly Haha I love it.

Vitaly

18:33

@Cerberus So do I.

KitFox

Many years ago, I came across the phrase "masturbating wildly with a [I don't remember. Something or other. House plant.]" I occasionally have this phrase pop into my head, but it always annoys me. I can't figure how anyone could masturbate "wildly."

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus chrismation ~ confirmation involves anointing with oil for both catholics and orthodox. the shape of the ritual is very similar, but the purpose is different. orthodox do it right after baptism (for infants), while catholics do it at an older age before first communion

user19161

@KitFox What has anointing got to do with that?

JSBᾶngs

@WillHunting if you have to ask...

KitFox

Because I thought about people anointing each other wildly in their rituals.

But I did say it was totally unrelated.

Cerberus

18:35

@JSBᾶngs Okay, but how come you have both "chrismation" and "anointing with oil" as two different, special rituals?

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus okay, so i don't know the normal English name for this sacrament. Holy Unction, I guess? in Romanian it's Sfantu Maslu. anyway, it's anointing of the sick for healing

user19161

@KitFox Actually I was also reminded of something similar but it is too inappropriate for this chat!

Cerberus

Okay, but unction ~ anointment ~ chrismation...

I guess it is just a convention.

The names.

JSBᾶngs

in the catholic church it evolved into the last rites administered before death, a concept which doesn't exist in the orthodox church

KitFox

The important thing is that they know what they are for.

JSBᾶngs

18:37

5 mins ago, by KitFox

There is a lot of anointing in rituals, I imagine.

KitFox

But that's a question. Why the anointing with oil? What does that represent?

user19161

The bashing of religion followed by a seemingly deep interest in religion suggest this room has a split personality.

Cerberus

Why is Christ called that anyway?

Who anointed him, and why?

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox i'm not sure that the oil per se represents anything. the ritual is a means by which the Holy Spirit acts

Gigili

What's the difference between being after and being for?

JSBᾶngs

18:39

@Cerberus God.

Cerberus

@Gigili After is about a goal; for is about supporting something.

JSBᾶngs

note that Christos has a much more generic meaning before Christians

Gigili

Or fafter

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs In which book?

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus i don't understand the question

user19161

18:40

@JSBᾶngs In which book of the Bible did this occur I think.

Cerberus

Is there a specific NT book that explains how and why God anoints Christ?

KitFox

@JSBᾶngs So the oil isn't special or blessed or a conduit for the Holy Spirit or anything?

user19161

@KitFox You know what the oil reminds me of...

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox all of the above, actually. (as a rule, assume that everything in an orthodox church has been blessed.) what i meant was that the oil doesn't have a specific, one-to-one symbolic significance

Gigili

@Cerberus So what does it mean when you told me I don't know what you're after? It means you don't know what my goal is or what? How knowing my goal would be beneficial?

KitFox

18:42

@JSBᾶngs Oh, OK. So the anointment lets you feel as though the Spirit has touched you?

user19161

@Gigili I don't know what you are after: sex or money.

Gigili

Seney.

Or moex.

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox i'm a little out of my depth here, but i would say this: the action of the Spirit is not bound to one particular element of the ritual, but is a function of the whole thing. so we do bless the oil, and say specific prayers, and use a ritual invocation, etc., but it's not as if one of those in particular is the locus of the Spirit's work

Cerberus

@Gigili Yes, it means I don't know what your goal is, what you are trying to accomplish. I was presumably commenting on a certain action of yours whose purpose I did not understand.

JSBᾶngs

does that answer your question at all?

KitFox

18:44

Yes, I suppose so. Thank you.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

0

Q: What are some words that recently and completely changed their meaning?

I've found many examples of words that changed or took on additional meanings, but usually the changes started many generations ago, and/or their original meaning is still retained. What are words that appear to have recently and completely changed their meaning? To me, "unique" is an example. ...

meaning

List question

Cerberus

Please check out at the counter.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 So to be closed as what?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Not constructive, I guess.

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting deconstructive

KitFox

18:45

@JSBᾶngs I expected more purpose-driven symbolism, I suppose.

Matt Эллен

anti-learning

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I still think we should allow list questions.

KitFox

Like in Communion, the bread represents the body of Christ, and the wine is so you get wash him down when he sticks in your throat.

Gigili

@Cerberus Am I supposed to have a goal for every conversation I have with you?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I don't see how "only one answer can be accepted" is a meaningful rule.

Matt Эллен

18:47

@MrShinyandNew安宇 like "there can be only one president"

KitFox

Like Highlander.

Matt Эллен

yes!

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox lol

Matt Эллен

beheading as a form of election

KitFox

I feel the Quickening.

Cerberus

18:47

@Gigili My guess is that you said something that suggested you had a purpose with a certain line of text which escaped me.

> Merah filmed himself killing seven people, including Jewish children and unarmed soldiers, before he was shot dead after a 32-hour siege last week.

KitFox

Oh, no, that's just lunch.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus you think he should be president?

Cerberus

> "In accordance with al-Jazeera's code of ethics, given the video does not add any information that is not already in the public domain, its news channels will not be broadcasting any of its contents."

@MattЭллен Eh, what?

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17526424

Matt Эллен

1 min ago, by Matt Эллен

beheading as a form of election

KitFox

@Cerberus I don't want stories about bad things happening to children.

lalalalalala not listening.

2

Cerberus

18:49

@MattЭллен Oh, I hadn't read that. It was just a random news bit that I was in shock about.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox here's some pop-psychology

Cerberus

@KitFox Don't worry, it's over.

KitFox

Kittehs and flowahs and rainbows.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus Yeah, I was just being silly :)

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Oh hehe.

Vitaly

18:50

@KitFox once upon a time there lived an evil woman who indoctrinated her children into xianity...

user19161

@KitFox It's better to sing do re mi fa so rather than just la.

KitFox

@Vitaly NOU!

Cerberus

@Vitaly Actually, you are among the more fanatical people I know...not necessarily a bad thing, but just so you know.

Not very nuanced.

KitFox

Did I ever tell you my funny circumcision story?

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox do share

KitFox

18:53

When I was pregnant with my first child, my brother- and sister-in-law visited for Christmas. I'd have been about seven months pregnant or so, and they had their first child, a 7-month-old boy.

My sister-in-law was giving me newborns tips, and the last one was "oh, and make sure you have plenty of vaseline and little gauze squares."

I raised an eyebrow. "Really? What for?"

"Circumcision care." she replied.

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

Robusto

Barbaric.

Cerberus

I presume you share my views on that practice?

user19161

Huh?

JSBᾶngs

is that the whole story?

Cerberus

18:54

Horrible.

KitFox

"Oh," I scoffed, "We're not having our boy circumcised—" Then my brain caught up with my mouth and promptly shut it.

Vitaly

@Cerberus now i have a picture of a ~~cultured intellectual~~ signalling-driven human being nuanced about murder in my mind.

KitFox

Because of course the reason she knows that is that her son is circumcised.

user19161

But why was the circumcision done? Religious reasons?

KitFox

I don't know. Probably not.

Cerberus

18:56

1. She knew how it can causes bad wounds to a baby. 2. She assumed you would be having it done regardless. That is bad.

user19161

The other one would be medical reasons.

KitFox

There are myriad reasons to circumcise boys.

None of them apply to my children.

Robusto

I didn't have my sons circumcised, but my eldest had to be circumcised at age seven due to an infection. It was a big deal.

Cerberus

@Vitaly Even about murder it is good to be nuanced, yes. Depending on your definition of murder.

user19161

@KitFox Well, I think it is OK not to shut it in this case.

KitFox

18:57

@WillHunting Really? Why is that?

Vitaly

@Cerberus good for your social status if you are a signalling-driven human, yes. not so good for the victims.

Cerberus

@KitFox Reasons as in medical necessity, or just any kind of motivation parents may have?

JSBᾶngs

i had a friend who had to be circumcised at the age of 13. it was... unpleasant

user19161

@KitFox What's the big deal with voicing your opinion?

Cerberus

@Vitaly No definition, no topic for discussion.

KitFox

18:57

@WillHunting Because it isn't any of my business to judge her actions.

And it's not like she could have undone it even if I'd swayed her opinion.

Cerberus

I would have questioned her.

She started it.

user19161

@KitFox Well, you are just saying what you would do.

Cerberus

Not accused, but questioned.

KitFox

Well, what I almost said was "because we think it is a barbaric practice."

Cerberus

She might do it to a new child.

KitFox

18:58

I doubt it.

She probably just did it because that's what you do to boys.

Cerberus

@KitFox Understandable, but it would have got you nowhere.

@KitFox Is it still that common in educated circles in America?

user19161

Then there is female circumcision too.

KitFox

More so than you'd think. But it's more for religious reasons these days than it has been in the past.

Cerberus

All of it should be outlawed.

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