English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

19:02

@Mitch Haha nice logic.

Mitch

@Færd Possibly. But also a recognition of the need for skepticism, that what you accept on faith may actually have a deterministic explanation. Or the other direction, see a cargo cult for what it is,not based on evidence.

Johan Larsson

Conway's law: organizations which design systems ... are constrained to produce designs which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations.

Comes right after Grey's in that chain I think

Cerberus

Hmm.

What kind of design should I be thinking of?

Færd

@Mitch A true skeptic would also cast a doubtful look at scientific endeavors to reduce everything to physical determinism.

Mitch

19:20

@Færd that's at a much more abstract level of skepticism

Færd

In the eyes of those who are too used to their level of credulousness?

Mitch

@Cerberus I've always heard of websites as the primary examples. If there's lots of advertising, then marketing controls things. If there are lots of demos .. um... then some group that does demos?

@Cerberus I've also heard that remote control UI design is an example, but usually that should mean that the org structure is chaotic , but I don't think that follows (other things surely follow but not org tree)

Cerberus

@Mitch Ah, okay. So lots of demos is (an important part of) a "communication structure"?

@Mitch Those are indeed chaotic.

Johan said "communication structures", and now it's "organisation structure"?

Is it simply that chaotic organisations produce chaotic designs, and organisations that have lots of marketeers produce products with lots of advertising?

That is quite a bit...easier to follow.

Johan Larsson

19:35

Conway's law

Conway's law is an adage named after computer programmer Melvin Conway, who introduced the idea in 1967. It was first dubbed Conway's law by participants at the 1968 National Symposium on Modular Programming. It states that "organizations which design systems ... are constrained to produce designs which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations." The law is based on the reasoning that in order for a software module to function, multiple authors must communicate frequently with each other. Therefore, the software interface structure of a system will reflect the soci...

I copy pasted from there

felt right when I did it

Mitch

@Cerberus Oh. I missed that. maybe the observation is something simpler like 'You can tell something about an organization something something how something something"

@JohanLarsson hm...yes, communication structure.

I think it's a law that works when it does, and doesn't when it doesn't.

Johan Larsson

:)

I think it is a decent observation

Mitch

> Organisations often produce web sites with a content and structure which mirrors the internal concerns of the organisation rather than the needs of the users of the site.

Johan Larsson

same law?

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Ah, I see, so it is kind of about communication between software parts.

Mitch

19:41

so sometimes "concerns" sometimes "communication structures" sometimes org struct?

Johan Larsson

Yeah the design

But not surprising if it is visible in the end result

Mitch

> distributed teams tend to develop more modular products

Johan Larsson

> mirrors the internal concerns of the organisation rather than the needs of

Cerberus

@Mitch Ah, that is quite the variation.

Mitch

Like al the others, I think it works best as a proverb than an actual law

Johan Larsson

19:43

do you write ahk that way cerb?

Cerberus

So companies create things that they like to create, rather than what potential customers would want.

@JohanLarsson Yes, all my code has three heads.

Johan Larsson

:)

did you ever have a hydra bug?

Mitch

@JohanLarsson right...there's an xkcd for that

Cerberus

I only use objects with three values.

Thank goodness, no!

Then my computer would have exploded.

Mitch

People go to the website because they can't wait for the next alumni magazine, right? What do you mean, you want a campus map? One of our students made one as a CS class project back in '01! You can click to zoom and everything!

Cerberus

19:44

Maybe I should look into that Hercules patcher.

Mitch

@Cerberus except for McDonalds. They create things scientifically proven to be what customers desire rather than what's good for them

Cerberus

@Mitch Haha, I remember that one.

We don't have campi here, and the sites are usually not that bad, but its spirit stands.

@Mitch Hmm.

But only short-term desire is taken into account, not long time.

Mitch

@Cerberus Oh. Mostly a collection of random older buildings scattered in the middle of a city?

Cerberus

Yes, like most universities, I believe.

I think Anglo-Saxon countries are more likely to have campi away from towns?

Some of the new Dutch universities are trying to ape English campi, though.

Mitch

The US really does have campusses generally a set aside bounded area devoted entirely to the university. Even within a city.

Cerberus

19:48

Some buildings may have courtyards.

But they're in the inner city.

Mitch

In general. of course exceptions. eg NYU, uh... I'm struggling to think of others.

Cerberus

Well, there may be some new buildings far away.

And certainly nobody lives in university buildings.

And I think the "campus police" is uniquely American?

That is, I cannot imagine such a thing in England.

Mitch

@Cerberus I think many public universities in the US were explicitly land-grant created meaning 'here is the land for you to build up a uni. Now go do it from scratch'

Johan Larsson

Rich Versus Roach - Figure Eights

►

Mitch

rather than the cambridge style, buiild a monastery, add some apartments for boarding teenagers, build another church, some more apartments, etc, etc

@JohanLarsson Nice. Tum titty tum titty tum titty tum!

Johan Larsson

19:52

haha

Mitch

@Cerberus I just saw a thing about open carry gun laws in Texas which is also unthinkable in the US, but there it is.

@JohanLarsson haha. they do a little more

Johan Larsson

Ulcerate - Burning Skies

►

he does it alone

warmed up around six minutes

Mitch

@Cerberus OMG American exceptionalism at just the universities? Fraternities, drinking, sports, keep going

@JohanLarsson I'VE GOT BLISTERS ON MY EARDRUMS!

Johan Larsson

I don't listen to metal but that song stuck for some reason

Cerberus

@Mitch I suppose, if you get land for free...!

Zoomed in.

Mitch

19:59

@JohanLarsson Yes, like boiling hot ingots of steel

Cerberus

You could say this is a kind of mini-campus, lots of uni buildings adjacent.

Johan Larsson

can steel boil?

Mitch

that's how hot it is!

gaseous metal

not a very good band name

Cerberus

Johan Larsson

@Mitch name your band penisberserk

Mitch

20:03

"Honey, I'm going out with my pals to see 'Gaseous Metal', back whenever"
"OK Honey, maybe you should pick up some Depends on the way just in case"

Johan Larsson

> Anders Borg gick penisbärsärk på familjefest i skärgården.

Mitch

@JohanLarsson haha NOU

Johan Larsson

Swedish ex politician did it last week

Or, not sure what he did but that was the headline.

Cerberus

Penisbärsärk?

What could that be?

Johan Larsson

He showed his dikk

And screamed profanity.

I think, I don't consume news.

Mitch

20:05

@Cerberus That doesn't seem so werid given that there is a somewhat walled off campus separate from a city, so it's quicker for the university administration to support their personal 'security' personnel, rather than rely on a municipality, of course with lots of cooperation, and handing over for more serious crimes.

@JohanLarsson I can see why now.

Or rather, I don't need to see why.

Johan Larsson

Yes, all news are not gonna be as good as that gem.

I'm trying to stop writing yeah, looks nasty

Yes is shorter & nicer.

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson How novel!

@Mitch It makes kind of sense when the university is in deserted territory, sure.

If there is really no sensible local authority nearby that could manage crime.

And, as the land gets settled, I imagine such traditions stay.

Mitch

You may have noticed if you listened to the news during the Boston Marathon bombing, that one of the subsequent events was that an MIT campus police officer was shot. MIT is a totally integrated part of the urban area. I think of it as extra protection for the students rather than policing the students themselves.

also, sometimes for oversight of students who can get out of hand with drinking and sex crimes.

Cerberus

But...why do students need extra protection or oversight? Why can't the normal police do that, except because it's tradition?

We have very little crime related to students here.

Tonepoet

20:29

@Cerberus The problem with that reasoning is that you can't know if that's because there is extra protection or not. Unless there is some other compelling reason, people might not think dropping it is worthwhile. This is especially so since many of the students are still dependent upon their parents' college fund, and are hence arguably still children (despite being adults to most of the world).

Cerberus

@Tonepoet I'm not sure I understand.

We, like almost all countries (I imagine), do not have a special police force for students.

And we have no problems with students: on the contrary.

They are mostly well behaved citizens, because they are in educated circles.

Except maybe they're sometimes noisy.

Because they don't live by office hours.

And they do not need any more protection than other citizens, also because there is little crime.

Mitch

@Cerberus Yeah, not sure why. Like all culture it's weird for everybody the first time, but if you live there it immediately becomes not special (not normal or invisible, just accepted). I remember first time seeing it having the same reaction as you, but your mentioning it just now I had to stop and think what the big deal is, why you would think that is weird. But for me, it's 'why not'.

Cerberus

I see.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus That's probably a reasonable assumption, but not a certain one in my opinion, and even if it is true, that does not change the world around them. What of the villains outside of campus, who avoid it because it has extra security?

Jasper Loy

@Mari-LouA To me, the graphs don't really show that much. For example, how much is considered 'gentle'? Moreover, the asker is really looking for a sentence to use in his IELTS writing. Sometimes, the simplest answers are the best to me, and there is no need to use more impressive words. And sometimes, certain technical words may not even really describe the situation the asker is talking about. ELU has a lot of answers related to math using technical words that actually don't describe the situation! — Jasper Loy 5 mins ago

Cerberus

20:40

@Tonepoet It is a fact that students commit very few serious crimes.

Jasper Loy

What do you guys think about my comment? Do you agree?

marcellothearcane

what's the question link?

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Those policemen could also go police some poor neighbourhood with high crime. Why do students deserve extra protection over other (young) people? Poor neighbourhoods also have many young people comparatively, even children.

Jasper Loy

@marcellothearcane If you follow the comment link, you get the question.

marcellothearcane

@JasperLoy okay

@Cerberus what's going on?

Jasper Loy

20:43

@marcellothearcane There are many things about SE you will learn only as time goes by, like what I just told you about, lol.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus College is partially based on private funds though, the private funds of relatively rich people who can afford the extra security as a luxury if they want it, e.g. mommy and daddy dearest.

Jasper Loy

@Tonepoet College in America is so expensive. Is it really worth that much? I dunno.

It seems that Ghalib's chat account used yesterday or so is gone, gone. What happened?

Tonepoet

There are a few jobs I wouldn't want done by somebody without years specialized training

Jasper Loy

I am just comparing the quality of education I got in college to the fees I paid. I didn't study in America though.

I think a lot of professors only care about research and not about teaching, which is why teaching sucks at so many places.

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy My understanding of the situation is that "Ghalib" was really Arrowfar, and Arrowfar is banned for ten years for reasons unbeknownst to me.

Jasper Loy

20:48

@Tonepoet Yes, I know that, and I didn't even want to bring it up but he already wrote a lot of stuff and then deleted them, so it's not really a secret anymore.

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Then that is a whole 'nother line of argumentation. Everybody would like to hire private guards. But that doesn't mean it's good or reasonable for society.

Jasper Loy

@Tonepoet Is the ban only for chat, or for the main sites as well?

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy I do not know. It stands to reason that if somebody circumventing a ban is caught that they would be banned again though.

Cerberus

Hmm too bad.

Tonepoet

Also, a ten year network wide ban is not done for light and transient reasons, or at least I would hope not.

Mitch

20:52

@Cerberus Maybe that's another American Exception

Cerberus

Nah.

It's fairly universal.

Jasper Loy

@Tonepoet I know he did some things in chat, but I think they are not very serious, and I don't even want to mention them. I don't know all the details though.

Mitch

@JasperLoy That is a big problem. Another American Exception.

Cerberus

@Tonepoet That's true. But he was being nice and mature, at least here, so I would not have expected that.

Jasper Loy

@Tonepoet Ron Maimon, the mad physics genius, is banned SE-wide for a decade.

Cerberus

20:54

Haha.

Mitch

But I claim that for all these American Exceptions, other countries are trying to catch up

Cerberus

Ron was pretty mad indeed. Narcissism, amongst other things, a pseudo-psychiatrist would say.

Jasper Loy

What about me? Is my behaviour OK to you?

Cerberus

@Mitch No offence, but this may not be an exception if you add poor countries to the comparison, or countries like Saudi Arabia: they, too, have compounds with special guards for rich people.

@JasperLoy Only if you send me €100 every month.

2

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus I will send you some Monopoly currency.

Cerberus

20:56

Hmm but €100 is the smallest note.

At least in the version we have here.

€50.000 being the biggest.

Jasper Loy

I think I will buy some lottery. I hope I can win a million dollars.

Although the money won't solve my mental problems, it will make me happier.

Cerberus

Would you say smalllest/biggest bank note?

I think lowest/highest is probably more standard.

Jasper Loy

Yes, I would say smallest and biggest.

Cerberus

Hmm OK.

Jasper Loy

That is just an intuitive answer to your question. Personally, I never said any of the four above.

Tonepoet

20:59

If one was more literal than the other, I would care more but both are tropic and smallest/biggest makes a little more sense to me to be honest.

Jasper Loy

I really use only very few words in my writing and talking.

Mitch

@JasperLoy There is a difference between a research institution and one geared towards teaching.

Jasper Loy

I have an extremely small vocabulary in theory and practice.

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Right!

Jasper Loy

@Mitch Oh well, one should be good at what one does, if it is to be done at all, no excuses.

Cerberus

21:00

I suppose a big note also sounds slightly more colloquial?

Mitch

@Cerberus a lot of rich schools in much poorer countries have private security

Cerberus

@Mitch Exactly.

Jasper Loy

A big note also sounds fine to my ears.

Mitch

@Cerberus Oh...jinx

Tonepoet

@Cerberus I think high/low is of a higher register in conjunction with numbers.

Jasper Loy

21:02

So, recently, I liked a Maria, but it seems she doesn't like me, so I am going to forget about her, that's all I want to share.

Tonepoet

I think it's also more common in video game contexts at the least. You want to deal the highest D.P.S. possible, for instance. I wouldn't say biggest there.

Mitch

@JasperLoy I fewer words

Tonepoet

Mitch

@JasperLoy but that's the point, those at research universities are hired to to do research well, with teaching a close but secondary goal.

Jasper Loy

@Tonepoet What does that image say?

Cerberus

21:04

@Mitch Yay!

Tonepoet

Okay, there we go!

Jasper Loy

@Mitch They should be equally important, my point.

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Right! Then it appears we more or less agree.

Mitch

@Cerberus I wouldn't have taken offense, but only because you mention it am I inclined.

Jasper Loy

@Tonepoet Exactly, what does it mean?

Cerberus

21:05

@Tonepoet Yes, absolutely not with D. P. S.

Mitch

But it doesn't seem like that. Maybe it does? Maybe college administrators are afraid of crime by townies in the neighborhood, so they need extra security?

Cerberus

A big number sounds quite colloquial; a high number standard.

Jasper Loy

Oh @Cerberus I talked to an ice cream seller from your country. He married someone here and he says he loves this place, lol.

Cerberus

But it's slightly less clear with a high bank note, at least to me.

@Mitch A smart attitude in life.

Tonepoet

@JasperLoy Those are characters from Sonic Adventure 2. Maria Robotnik is pictured on the left, and Shadow the Hedgehog is pictured on the right.

Cerberus

21:06

@JasperLoy Oh, really! That's nice.

How was his ice?

Jasper Loy

@Tonepoet I see, so that is Maria.

Mitch

But the 3rd world places have guys with machine guns hanging out at every iron gate. In the US the campuses aren't walled. It is definitely weird when a cop car goes by and it turns out it is university police. like they're play acting at being a real cop

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus I never bought any from him, lol.

Mitch

@Cerberus I would never say a 'high number'. big or large (large more formal)

Jasper Loy

I think any elementary school kid can understand every single word I ever use in my writing.

Mitch

21:08

@JasperLoy I've heard that Dutch ice is pretty good. It's the process but also the care they take in producing it.

@JasperLoy what does 'elementary' mean?

Jasper Loy

@Mitch He's actually selling Italian ice cream here, lol.

@Mitch It means around 7-12 years old.

Mitch

'elementary' is heterological

Feeds

1

Q: When someone says they are peckish does it meany they are hungry or feel like a chicken?

The word peck is describing a bird eat. so is the word peckish exclusively for birds? Can you say peckish for a person being hungry as well?

single-word-requests

Mitch

@JasperLoy a 7-12 year old probably doesn't know that and just thinks it means 'my school'

Jasper Loy

@Mitch Oh, sorry then I underestimated the difficulty of my words.

Mitch

21:10

@JasperLoy (he's really selling Dutch ice cream but people think Italian sounds fancier)

@JasperLoy what is 'underestimated'?

haha maybe I'm undereetimating the youth of today.

Jasper Loy

My birthday is next next Wed.

tchrist

@terdon @Mitch Phonemically, Santander is simply /santanˈder/ in Spanish because Spanish is a WYSIWYG language. Phonetically, it’s [s̺ä̃n̪t̪ä̃n̪ˈd̪e̞ɾ] when said by natives of that region, where every single silly little diddlymark adds some nuance telling you that that sound is NOT pronounced as you might think to pronounce it in English: apical s, dental t&d, nasalized vowels, centralized vowels.

Jasper Loy

Next Wed is Debian's birthday.

Mitch

@JasperLoy not this next Wed?

Jasper Loy

@Mitch Two more weeks, so next next. I am thinking, maybe a miracle will happen then...

tchrist

21:15

And since there is no phonemic distinction of the rhotic phonemes in the syllable coda, that could be [r] with a full coronal trill or just [ɾ] with a simple flap, depending on the utterance and speaker and passion. :)

Mitch

@tchrist That's what I expect, but I would also expect an English speaking non-Spanish speaking person to say it totally Anglo. And yet I hear such English speakers putting stress at the end. And it really bothers me that people are at least doing that right.

How dare people get things right sometimes!

@tchrist oh. what is the standard word final 'r' like then, the trill or the flap?

tchrist

Yep.

Mitch

argh. why can't people just do it one way!

you mean in free variation even like say within a variety?

Jasper Loy

The English r is actually an inverted r in IPA, but often written as an upright r for simplicity.

tchrist

Give 'er hell there boy.

Mitch

21:18

let's say in standard Mexican?

tchrist

It doesn't matter.

Both occur.

Depends how excited somebody is. :)

Mitch

intervocalic single spelled 'r' is the flap usually, right?

tchrist

Right.

Jasper Loy

The upright r is actually the symbol for the Italian rolled r.

Mitch

pero vs perro

tchrist

21:19

So the phonologic environment says whether it's truly final.

> Beber es vivir.

The first one has to be a flap.

Mitch

so I would expect word final to be like intervocalic (other things being equal)

tchrist

The last one doesn't matter.

Mitch

OK

yeah sure, following vowel

tchrist

It kind of depends how the speaker feels like finishing up what he's saying.

Mitch

trilling takes a lot of energy

tchrist

21:20

Yep.

Well, more than not doing so.

Cerberus

@Mitch Hmm that's funny.

tchrist

Much harder for English speakers because they don't hold their mouths right.

Mitch

It's like getting an engine started

Cerberus

@Mitch We normally only eat Italian ice here, so...

Mitch

I try not to hold my mouth.

tchrist

21:21

Probably here it's a short multiple that trails off in many cases.

Mitch

@Cerberus yeah, the grass is always greener. In Italy they're always saying how great Dutch ice cream is.

Cerberus

Surely not!

Mitch

@tchrist I was just hearing something the other day and the guy had this pronounced word final r trill...

Cerberus

We do not have an ice-cream tradition here.

tchrist

Listen to his first sentence: he says "...en el que vamos a analizar" (in which we're going to analyse) with a full trill:

Todos los spoilers y filtraciones del 5º episodio de la 7º temporada de Juego de Tronos

►

Cerberus

21:24

@tchrist I was told that was wrong.

But it's probably some kind of emphasis.

Mitch

@Cerberus Oh yeah, totally. They couldn't stop saying how great it was. The best Dutch opera. The best Dutch wine (like chianti but drier). And the climate, the fresh breeze and late sun in the summer.

tchrist

He's talking with more force.

It's not wrong.

Like I said, it's about how excited somebody is.

Cerberus

@Mitch Umm wine is pretty bs.

Italian wines are infinitely better.

tchrist

In his more relaxed things he doesn't do it so much as there.

Cerberus

We barely have any, too cold.

Mitch

21:25

@Cerberus what?

Maybe it was Belgium

Cerberus

Ah, Belgium is quite different! They have good food.

Although I've not heard of ice-cream.

Which is primarily an Italian food.

Mitch

I was totally taking the piss about most of that.

tchrist

He's excited, very animated, almost yelling. So everything is very emphatic.

Mitch

But ice cream?

You gotta do something with all those cows and milk and stuff

Cerberus

@tchrist Yeah OK.

But this Spaniard claimed to not understand me at all when I said Navara instead of Navarra.

tchrist

21:27

Wait, that's phonemic.

Tonepoet

@tchrist I thought I.P.A. was the only What You See is What You Get language. =P

Mitch

@tchrist OK, the guy I heard I think was Indian, so entirely different 'r' situation. BUt yes, now I understand more of the Spanish 'r'

tchrist

Intervocalically there is a difference between Navarra and Navara: those are different words where the second does not exist.

So he would not understand you.

Cerberus

@Mitch Which is...make cheese and milk.

tchrist

I'm talking a syllable-final /r/.

Mitch

21:28

@Cerberus and ice cream

tchrist

The two phonemes only contrast between vowels.

Cerberus

Besides, most traditional Italian ice doesn't contain milk, I believe.

Mitch

ice cream is what you could do with milk instead of cheese and actually make it taste better

Cerberus

@tchrist Ah, OK.

Mitch

cheese is just a questionable preservation method

tchrist

21:29

It's like word-initially it can NEVER be a flap, only a trill.

Mitch

saying you like cheese is like saying you prefer embalming rather than cremation

Tonepoet

Gelato

Gelato (Italian pronunciation: [dʒeˈlaːto]; plural: gelati [dʒeˈlaːti], from the Italian word gelato meaning "frozen") is Italian ice cream. Gelato is made with a base of milk, cream, and sugar, and flavored with fruit and nut purees and other flavourings. It is generally lower in fat, but higher in sugar, than other styles of ice cream. Gelato typically contains less air and more flavoring than other kinds of frozen desserts, giving it a density and richness that distinguishes it from other ice creams. In Italy, by law, gelato must have at least 3.5% butterfat. In the United States, there is no...

tchrist

That's why they double the "r" when making compound words: el rey > el virrey for the viceroy

Mitch

saying you like cheese is like saying I'd rather have dry bread instead of cake

tchrist

@Tonepoet Looks lactic to me.

Tonepoet

21:30

@tchrist I never wrote that it wasn't.

Mitch

saying you like cheese is like saying you like sitting near the back of the bus where the toilet is because you're more likely to get a free seat

Cerberus

@Mitch !

tchrist

You don't like coagulated cow sweat?

Mitch

saying you like cheese is like saying you like ...

ew... shiver can't say that one.

Tonepoet

Is now a bad time to bring up that I like cheese? Esp. moldy blue cheese?

Cerberus

21:35

Yay!

I like medium-old blue cheeses, like creamy Castello.

Roquefort and Stilton are a bit too strong for me.

Tonepoet

Pepperjack, gouda, smoked chedder, cheesecake...

Mitch

@Cerberus Do not look to closely at any of those... you can see the alien life form growing

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Those are very different kinds?

Mitch

Like toe cheese. It is literally where cheese came from.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus Maybe not so much, depending on how "sharp" the cheddar is, except of course the cheesecake.

Also @Mitch if you don't like cheese, how do you eat pizza?

Mitch

21:42

Scientific studies have been done

Tonepoet

@Mitch I mean pizza is like, 50% cheese.

tchrist

@Cerberus Those are pretty different. Stilton is milder.

Cerberus

@Mitch That's needed to make wine.

Tonepoet

@Mitch So the rumors are true. You are an undercover Ninja Turtle!

Cerberus

@Tonepoet I only know 'gouda', which we simply call "cheese" here, and isn't 'cheesecake' with cream cheese, which is barely cheese?

@tchrist The ones I have tasted were all pretty strong.

Tonepoet

21:47

@Cerberus Yeah.

choster

Cheese is the example I trot out whenever someone breathlessly reports some or other apparent horror in some or other cuisine. Chicken embryos! Rotten shark! Whale!

It's milk curdled it in the stomach of a calf, then allowed to rot before being molded into a wheel.

Tonepoet

@choster Well yes, traditionally speaking but you can use vegetable rennet for some varieties

choster

Don't get me wrong, I rather like cheese. I just hate people who are blind to their own cultural prejudices

Mitch

Like eating grass seeds. That's nasty

Welsh rarebit

The pinnacle of civilization

You need to make cheese out of milk.

Flour out of grain, and using yeast make bread

If you do it right you need bacon, which you need the pig and kill the poor thing and the. Age and smoke the meat, then cook the bacon

Tonepoet

Mitch, you eat your roast beef sandwiches without cheese and use slices of cake as a substitute for bread.

Mitch

21:57

THEN you put all of them together and cook one more time.

Next topic. Pickles

Tonepoet

Chocolate dipped pickles Mitch, really? =P

Cerberus

@choster Haha, good point.

But in the stomach of a calf?

choster

Well, not in it necessary (though that is probably how the first cheese makers however many generations ago discovered the process), but the traditional place to get rennet was indeed the stomach of a young calf

*necessarily

When the zombie apocalypse comes I will be pretty useless, but I might be able to buy some time by sharing tidbits of home preparations gleaned from Laura Ingalls Wilder books

Carl

Hi all. "Give a damn". There was a movie (not Gone with the Wind) that talked about this phrase. The context was that since "damn" is a curse word, if someone gives a damn about you, that means they care more about you than they do religion. The phrase "We can only hope that when we die, somebody gives a damn", as in, they say "damn", comes to mind. Anybody know this movie?

Cerberus

@choster Hmm I thought the stuff was acquired after slaughtering a cow or calf. But I suppose that's less likely in prehistoric times, for you'd have to kill the animal and lose its production.

@Carl Sorry, no idea!

But interesting theory.

Carl

22:10

Maybe I'll ask the movie people. Are we talking about how to procure rennet in the case of zombies?

choster

If the electrical grid goes down, we won't have refrigeration, so I imagine we'd regain an appreciation for hard cheeses

Carl

mmm, yes.

Cerberus

22:30

Yay!

But...don't we already have this appreciation?

choster

dairyinfo.gc.ca/… doesn't break it down by type of cheese, but I do find it interesting that for all the dairy I saw being produced in New Zealand, they consume so little of it

OTOH Iceland is not a country I associate with dairy, but they're up there with France and Luxembourg

Cerberus

22:45

Hmm interesting.

So Spaniards don't eat much cheese.

Jasper Loy

Choster, a rare chat visitor...

Cerberus

But an honourable one.

Jasper Loy

And me? A mysterious chat visitor...

choster

I only seem to sign on when no one else is around

I am therefore assuming that all of you are ghosts

Jasper Loy

Hello @choster, welcome to this chat.

choster

22:52

grazie

Julius

Hi. Could someone give some intuition on why using a comma before "i.e." is correct? For instance, "Let the sample be big, i.e., N>>0.". What I have been using so far is "Let the sample be big; i.e., N>>0." or "Let the sample be big. That is, N>>0.". It feels like some stronger separation is needed than just a comma.

Jasper Loy

@Julius Well, one style guide I have seen recommends the semicolon, but punctuation guides will tell you different things depending on which guide you read. I wanted to sugges you post on the main site, but from my experience the main site answers on punctuation sucks big time, so I suggest you check out several punctuation guides and decide the matter for youself.

Cerberus

@Julius I understand your intuition, but I believe it is normally only preceded by a comma.

Fowler's (3rd ed.) also recommends a mere preceding comma.

No comma after i.e., though.

Jasper Loy

See? Different guides say different things...

Cerberus

So I wouldn't use a comma.

Besides, are you sure the i.e. in your example introduces an explanation, and not an example?

If it is more like an example, use e.g.

Julius

22:58

I see. And yes, that would be a silly explanation for the case where the same size is already denoted by N. Thanks

Cerberus

Good luck!

Jasper Loy

Thanks for the good luck, lol

Feeds

23:35

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…