English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Tonepoet

15:00

@terdon I have the 13th, 14th and 15th edition. I think the most recent is the 16th, although the 17th was announced a short while back.

terdon

@Tonepoet I was checking it online.

Tonepoet

@terdon The actual style guide isn't accessible to the general public. I think you have to register. It may even have a paywall. What I am trying to hint at is that I can check these for you if you like. I have the 13th edition (1982) and the 15th edition (2003) in this very room. I forget what I did with the 14th though.

terdon

If you do, please check the latest.

Tonepoet

The latest one I have is the 15th, so I'll check that.

Cerberus

The Australian P. M. about enforcing backdoors in Apple's encryption:

> “The laws of Australia prevail in Australia, I can assure you of that,” Turnbull said. “The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia.”

Matt E. Эллен

15:08

/facepalm

Cerberus

He also said the law would be based on the British Investigatory Powers Act or something...

Matt E. Эллен

"commendable"? how about "unavoidable and going to have a direct effect on the effectiveness of your legislation".

Cerberus

Yeah.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattE.Эллен They'll just repeal them

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus I apologise, Australia.

terdon

15:09

@Tonepoet Thanks

Cerberus

Two more statements of his:

> "I am not going to get into hypotheticals."
"I’m not a cryptographer"

Really??oneone

Matt E. Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 ah, yes. Π will be 4 and all prime numbers will be even

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattE.Эллен easier to make all primes odd, innit?

Matt E. Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 you can't divide them by 2 then.

once all primes can be divided by 2 then you have a constant function for breaking encryption :p

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattE.Эллен well, not everything can be divided by 2 evenly. Like that PM's IQ... it can only be divided evenly by 1 and 1.

Matt E. Эллен

15:12

at least it's not prime!

Cerberus

And 0.

Because I think you can divide 0 by 0.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattE.Эллен Well, that's easy, just choose P and Q such that P = 2.

Matt E. Эллен

:D

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus not really

only in Australia

Cerberus

Heh.

Well, they walk upside down.

So their laws must be upside down.

When you divide 0 by 1, what do you get?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:13

"That's not a private key." whips out pair of large primes "Now that's a private key"

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus 0

Cerberus

This is a family room!

@MattE.Эллен Right. So 0/1=0.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus zero, but in Australia you have to write it counter-clockwise

Cerberus

It follows, then, that 0/0=1, does it not?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, I thought upside down.

So confusing.

Can we sell the lower half of the planet to Mars?

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus but it would also follow that it would equall all other numbers, too

Cerberus

15:15

Hmm true.

So then we wouldn't know what 0/0=.

Still, it's weird.

Matt E. Эллен

sad but true

Cerberus

So perhaps you could say 0/0= 1 v 0/0 = 2 v ...

Ad infinitum.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus I think mathematicians call that "undefined"

Cerberus

Okay.

But does that mean that the division is not "possible"?

user288256

@Tonepoet Wow, I made one comment and you guys talked about "periods" for an hour. Nice!

Cerberus

15:17

"Possible" what my pupils have to use in school.

That is, they have to write k.n., which stands for kan niet.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus in normal circumstances, yes, because you usually need to work on things that are defined

user288256

There was power outage here otherwise I would have been here as well.

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Okay.

26 mins ago, by Cerberus

People from other S. E. chat rooms will love it when they hear that we have hour-long discussions about dots here.

user288256

@Tonepoet Whatever rows your boat is fine (by me). :)

Matt E. Эллен

but, since all of mathematics is based on unprovable axioms, mathematics is subjective. runs away

user288256

15:19

@Cerberus Hah.

Cerberus

I'm glad the power outage is over!

@MattE.Эллен What is mathematics but applied philosophy, after all?

Everything is an applied other thing, until it eats its own tail.

Matt E. Эллен

and what is philosophy but anecdotal sociology?

Tonepoet

@terdon Here are the recommendations of the 15th edition. Since it's copyrighted material, I've set the pastebin to expire within a week.

Cerberus

Applied psychology, I would say.

No, wait, you're right.

Sociology is applied psychology, and philosophy is applied sociology?

Matt E. Эллен

sure

Cerberus

15:22

Too bad sociology is a hybrid.

But philology was already taken.

Which has an inverse semantic frame.

Tonepoet

However to make a long story short, the 15th edition generally recommend periods for lowercase like a.m., and no periods for uppercase abbreviations.

Cerberus

Right, I think I would always use dots (not periods!) in lower case.

In English.

Never eg or ie.

Nor EG nor IE.

M.A.R.

-4

Q: WATER temperature at elevated ambient temperatuyre

What will be the temperature of water at an ambient temperature of 50 Deg Centigrade.

water

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@M.A.R. Depends, is the water in Australia?

user288256

Is my use of the word "here" twice fine: "There was a power outage here otherwise I would have been here as well."

M.A.R.

15:29

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think a good answer would both explain the usual case and the Australian exception in detail

Cerberus

@Ghalib It's OK because the context was clear.

M.A.R.

@Ghalib sure, why wouldn't it be?

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus yeah, that looks weird. I always have trouble deciding between E.g. and e.g. at the beginning of a sentence. Especially as my phone (annoyingly) auto capitalises. It's fine most of the time, but If I specifically delete the capitial, it should leave it alone!

Cerberus

In a different context, it might have been confusing.

user288256

@Cerberus Okay, thank you.

user288256

15:30

Yeah.

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Oh, it must be E.g. at the beginning! The rule of capitalisation applies always!

Matt E. Эллен

interesting

Cerberus

However, in formal English, you wouldn't begin a sentence with e.g. anyway.

Matt E. Эллен

true

Cerberus

Just as you wouldn't begin a sentence with a subordinate clause such as the beginning of this line.

Tonepoet

15:32

@Cerberus Hmm, you're so insistent. I wonder what Fowler has to say about the matter, if anything at all.

Cerberus

I'll look it up!

user288256

@Sayros "As you have asked in this request to add a new field" seems fine to me. No "is".

Cerberus

But I'm sure he will agree!

Sayros

@Ghalib Ah okay I will go for it thanks

user288256

@Sayros Or "As you have asked in ~~this~~ the request to add a new field"

user288256

15:37

I don't know the context so not sure.

user288256

This one also comes to mind "As you have asked to add a new field"

user288256

It's simpler.

Sayros

I think the first one is appropriate

user288256

okay cool.

Sayros

the context that the customer asked for a new requirement

user288256

15:37

I see

Sayros

this requirement has to be implemented in our side

So I have question to this customer

I started by that sentence :p

maybe shouldn't start by it

but its okay ^^

"As you have asked to add a new field" yes this is more appropriate

sometimes I make sentences too long I don't know why :/

thanks again

user288256

You are welcome.

parvin

guys is this correct?

Let X be the random variable denotes the number of white balls before taking out the first black ball.

shouldn't it use "denoting" instead of "denote" ?

M.A.R.

@parvin Either that, or insert a "that": "Let x be the random variable that denotes the number of . . . "

terdon

@Tonepoet Nice, thank you. So I don't need to use the periods ever again! YAY!

M.A.R.

15:46

@terdon neither does Tone poet, which is a relief

@Tonepoet Has no one ever told you how ghastly those periods look in an abbreviation?

parvin

thanks

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. Just because that standard satisfies Terdon doesn't mean it satisfies me. Our biases select different standards of correctness.

terdon

Heh. Fair enough.

Don't forget, unless it was written in or before the 19th century, it will be scorned by Tonepoet. :P

Cerberus

@Tonepoet The third edition says conventions have been eroded and both pm and p.m. are acceptable as long as they're used consistently.

But it doesn't mention an explicit rule.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен How do you pronounce that? Ar-gee bar-gee or Arg - ee, barg - ee?

Tonepoet

15:54

@Cerberus That's not what I was referencing. I meant for the word period. XP

Cerberus

Ohh.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch the first one

Mitch

All you have to do is look. Hardly anyone ever uses periods after each letter.

@MattE.Эллен what about argle bargle? Is that a thing?

Cerberus

Well, the title of the dictionary article uses period or full stop in order to make it easy to look up, but I detect a preference for (full) point in the text of the section of article about the use in abbreviations and the like.

So I will use point henceforth.

Matt E. Эллен

I. t.r.i.e.d. b.u.t. I. w.o.u.l.d. a.l.w.a.y.s. m.i.s.s. o.n.e..

Mitch

15:55

I only know the term from the Squeeze album

Cerberus

Also more consistent internationally.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch it sounds like someone's drowning. not a phrase I know

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен I think you had more than necessary

@MattE.Эллен Oh. That is what I use for that. Or gargling.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch ODO says it's an alternate for argy-bargy, but I've not heard it like that

Tonepoet

@terdon That's not entirely true. I'll cite later sources if necessary, albeit mostly just for newer words. I did so just in this discussion actually: 1947 is mid-20th century for instance. I also often cite Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1913 in my answers, which is early 20th century.

Mitch

15:59

@MattE.Эллен /dʒ/ right?

terdon

@Tonepoet Close enough though.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch yes

M.A.R.

0

Q: Please keep close/hold voting open until the minimum is reached on the relevant vote

This is similar to Please anonymize rather than incorrectly attribute close reasons to users except I am not looking to anonymise as such. I am also surprised the request was closed as a duplicate match with Distinguish close votes by reason when it isn't but anyway... This is in relation to Ho...

bug voting vote-to-close migration close-reasons

Mitch

@Tonepoet what year is it again? My time travel device has a wonky time piece I just want to confirm for my alien overloards

M.A.R.

This could've been a good idea but it's not

Tonepoet

16:01

@terdon Well, yeah, sure.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен and 'whinge' is /windʒ/?

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch like onion bhaji

M.A.R.

Mostly because it's not written by a meta veteran

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен mmm...

I assume

Tonepoet

@Mitch ... I don't remember. I think it's 1828, but I could be a century or two off the mark. =P

Mitch

16:02

OK goddamit. Two.. TWO... ELU peeves just today.

M.A.R.

@MattE.Эллен that sounds like food you only like if you eat once in a while

Mitch

1- There should be a close reason for 'explain this weird sentence to me' OR we should accept a lot more questions like that (it would be nice to have a place to do so, and ELU seems like it)

@MattE.Эллен is that like pav bhaji?

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch that looks soup like, so probably not

@M.A.R. perhaps. I certainly don't eat them often

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен and sociology is just anecdotal ... um ... anecdotes.

Tonepoet

@Mitch Proofreading doesn't suffice?

Either that or too broad.

M.A.R.

16:05

@Mitch my impression is those questions are only received as well as the sentence they ask about

If it sounds interesting, they get answers. If not, they get downvotes

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен Oh. I've heard of them as pakora (I think that is the northern Indian term for them)

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch sociology is quantitative anecdotes

Mitch

I prefer samosa

@MattE.Эллен It seems like it.

Tonepoet

@mitch Pakora and Samosas are two different menu items.

Mitch

@Tonepoet I'm starting to think there should be a place for quick proofreading, and what better place than ELU!

Party all the time.

or rather Party all the time!

@Tonepoet Thanks professor

Matt E. Эллен

16:07

physics can't tell you why we voted brexit, nor biology nor chemistry. Sociology can probably reveal the truth

M.A.R.

@MattE.Эллен HEY! Chem can explain everything if you can take it

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен We need sociology to tell us people are dumb?

M.A.R.

@Mitch not tell, prove

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch why are they dumb? What measures might stop them being dumb again?!

Mitch

@M.A.R. I don't need no sociology to prove me that.

@MattE.Эллен Dig a ditch. Dumb people will fall into it. Problem solved.

Tonepoet

16:09

@Mitch The more you say that, the more people will think I'm actually a professor. You already confused poor @Ghalib ! 'Tis fine by me though. It means I get more clout for dictating my selfish desires unto the world, like forcing everybody to punctuate their abbreviations! =P

Matt E. Эллен

lol

Mitch

ELU Peeve # 2...

What's wrong with lots of comments?

Matt E. Эллен

EL&U peeve #1: people who write ELU

Mitch

WHo cares if people comment all day? it's not in the answer.

There's no law that says you gotta read the comments (or anything at all)

comment up the wazoo. to your hearts content. til you get from your wazoo to your heart.

M.A.R.

@Mitch comments under questions always appear above all answers, no matter how awesome the answer

Mitch

16:11

@MattE.Эллен E.L.&U. ftfy

dammit

Matt E. Эллен

Comment all you like. But please accept that it will be deleted

M.A.R.

So comments can easily be more deceiving than answers

Mitch

E.L.&.U. f.t.f.y

Matt E. Эллен

lol

M.A.R.

@Mitch f.t.f.y..

Mitch

16:12

@M.A.R. then ignore them

Matt E. Эллен

not enough dots? too many dots? what is the correct amount of dots?

Mitch

@M.A.R. tnx

M.A.R.

@Mitch you might as well just ignore bad questions and bad answers

Mitch

resists putting in stops

@M.A.R. hm..good advice

M.A.R.

Don't ignore chat tho

But definitely ignore meta

Mitch

16:13

@M.A.R. haha. I read everything

Matt E. Эллен

chat's the only place you can get answers to EL&U question

Mitch

@M.A.R. That's the only place I feel like answering because nothing is ever wrong there.

Tonepoet

@mitch You forgot the spaces. I'd write it out as E.L. & U. because the ampersand is not a part of an abbreviation; it is used to conjoin two separate abbreviations, such as in old buisness names which used the abbreviated names of separate co-owners.

Mitch

I get all my news from reading the editorial pages

M.A.R.

If you can't resist comments, or bad comments, or badmouthing comments, you should stay away from meta.ELU

Mitch

16:14

the news is really messed up

M.A.R.

ELU.meta I mean

Mitch

@M.A.R. struggles to resist

Tonepoet

Otherwise it would be E.L.U. because conjunctions aren't used in abbreviations. >_>

Matt E. Эллен

resists to struggle

Mitch

inner turmoil churns my soul

@Tonepoet etc. etc. etc.

Matt E. Эллен

16:15

the struggle is real

Tonepoet

@Mitch &c.

Matt E. Эллен

E. L. et U.

ELEU

Tonepoet

You see, this is why I just write English Language & Usage out in full. =P

terdon

Kyrie ELEUson.

Mitch

@Tonepoet you haven't seen the history of the ampersand have you? It was invented by the typesetter Amper (not the french guy Ampère who invented electricity, common mistake). It's really an mushing together of 'Amper's And'

@MattE.Эллен NO foreign languages in chat

Matt E. Эллен

16:17

@Mitch it's only foreign if you aren't from around here

terdon

@Mitch Yeah, of course, it's Amper's "and".

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен The problem is that you can't get there from here

Tonepoet

@Mitch I know that it is a lithograph for the latin et, meaning and. What more do I need to know?

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch not even if I retrace my steps?

Mitch

@Tonepoet I need to lithograph my t-shirt, I just spit up on it.

Tonepoet

16:19

Well, I also read that people used to say "and per se and" at the end of the alphabet for some reason.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен The way forward is not the way backward.

You can quote me on that

I dare you

Matt E. Эллен

13 secs ago, by Mitch

@MattE.Эллен The way forward is not the way backward.

Mitch

I did not expect that

Matt E. Эллен

challenge accepted. Task complete

terdon

Well dang! The etymology of & is actually quite interesting:

> 1837, contraction of and per se and, meaning "(the character) '&' by itself is 'and' " (a hybrid phrase, partly in Latin, partly in English). An earlier form of it was colloquial ampassy (1706). The distinction is to avoid confusion with & in such formations as &c., a once common way of writing etc. (the et in et cetera is Latin for "and"). The letters a, I, and o also formerly (15c.-16c.) were written a per se, etc., especially when standing alone as words.

Oddly enough, it is better explained on Wikipedia:

> Traditionally, when reciting the alphabet in English-speaking schools, any letter that could also be used as a word in itself ("A", "I", and, at one point, "O") was repeated with the Latin expression per se ("by itself").[3][4][5] This habit was useful in spelling where a word or syllable was repeated after spelling; e.g. "d, o, g—dog" would be clear but simply saying "a—a" would be confusing without the clarifying "per se" added. It was also common practice to add the "&" sign at the end of the alphabet as

Tonepoet

16:20

@terdon I believe I mentioned that already, albeit without specific citation. XP

Mitch

@terdon haha. wikipedia. it's just information

terdon

@Tonepoet Yes, that's what made me look it up. I was wondering why in the world people would be saying "and per se and" as you said.

Mitch

did you know that the number of editors at wikipedia is slowly decreasing?

By 2025 there'll be a negative number of editors.

They'll owe editors to the readers.

Matt E. Эллен

they'll have to start using the infinite monkeys

Mitch

@terdon Why would you wonder that? They're not gonna say something else.

@MattE.Эллен Who's going to clean up after all that mess?

Tonepoet

16:23

@terdon Also, Dr. Webster used to use the &c. form for etc. in A.D.E.L. quite often. That's why I responded to @mitch's ects. the way I did.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattE.Эллен If they assign monkeys to editors, they'll finally prove one way or another what happens when you divide by zero

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch that's what the editors (lol I misspelt that ediots) are for, isn't it?

Tonepoet

Now my question is, why was it decided to write it as etc./&c. anyway? Et is a separate word from cetera.

Matt E. Эллен

and per spammed

Mitch

Patient: Dr. Webster, I have this pain right here.
Dr. Webster: I'm sorry, I'm not that kind of a doctor. Also you misspelled $500 on the check

Tonepoet

16:27

@Mitch He was actually called Dr. Webster late in his life for his scholarly achievements.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's an old math brainteaser. If you put an infinite number of monkeys in an infinite number of hotel rooms, and you have a stack of an infinite pieces of paper, how do you give each monkey an infinite # of pages each?

@Tonepoet Could he prescribe medications?

Tonepoet

@Mitch No, nor is it relevant.

Mitch

@Tonepoet ceteris paribus, other things being equal, is mutatis mutandis

Tonepoet

@Cerberus What nonsense is Mitch up to now?

Mitch

@Tonepoet Did he have a non-honorary degree from an accredited degree granting institution?

The question is, who the hell is accrediting the accrediting institutions in their accreditation process?

Tonepoet

16:32

@Mitch He studied law at Yale. I don't know to what extent.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 you promote half the monkeys to be editors. monkeys checking on monkeys. nothing can go wrong

Mitch

@Tonepoet Wikipedia says that he was the defending lawyer in the Scopes monkey trial.

Matt E. Эллен

it always comes back to monkeys

terdon

@Mitch A credit N.G., of course.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен I have a scheme for that...

promote 1/2 of the editor monkey's to be editor-editor monkeys

Pet Peeve #3 about ELU - daily peeve allowance only goes up to 2

@MattE.Эллен Argie bargie is over

Literally.

That album was pretty short.

OK, you know the song 'Tempted' by Squeeze?

user288256

16:38

I heard something something about Game of Thrones somewhere recently.

user288256

I haven't watched the show in two years. Is it ending?

user288256

Oh , never mind. Wikipedia/Google it is.

Mitch

It sounds like the narrator was caught with another woman so his girlfriend kicked him out?

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Oh, what isn't he up to!

Mitch

I heard a theory that really the song is supposed to mean that he is leaving his girlfriend because she was the one cheating.

Matt E. Эллен

16:39

@Mitch no

Mitch

So what I'm asking is...

Maybe that's not the best song for a wedding playlist?

Tonepoet

@Mitch Another interesting fact about Noah Webster is that he co-founded the Armherst College with Emily Dickinson's grandpa, Samuel Fowler Dickinson. Emily Dickinson herself personally used Webster's dictionary according to familial reports.

Mitch

@Tonepoet That explains a lot. A lot.

caub

There's a French expression "jeter un pavé dans la mare", meaning to trigger polemics, is there an Enlish equivalent?

user288256

@Tonepoet Oh I am not poor. Also I know you are not a real professor. I just like to make you happy because you answer my queries here sometimes.

Mitch

16:41

@caub do you mean like 'trolling'?

Stirring up a hornet's nest?

caub

hmm trolling is stronger, maybe

I like stirring (the shit maybe:p) other one but I like yours

terdon

@caub Yes, there's shit stirring and also, which is close to the French, rocking the boat.

Tonepoet

@Ghalib Redacted, it was somebody else.

caub

Ok thanks

user288256

:38855917 I must have been joking. Or being dumb on purpose, like right now: Are you really a professor Tonepoet?!

user288256

16:43

@Tonepoet Oh okay.

Mitch

@terdon what's shit stirring? that doesn't sound like riling up people to make them argue.

terdon

> someone who makes trouble for other people, especially by making known facts that they would prefer to keep secret:
He didn't need to tell her that - he's just a shit stirrer.

dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/shit-stirrer

caub

stirring up taboos

Mitch

@terdon Oh. Did not know that one. Will use it in my next performance review.

terdon

Yeah, that's a nice one.

Isn't there another one about putting the wolf/dog with the chickens? And not putting a fox to guard the chicken coop.

Matt E. Эллен

16:55

Cat amoung the pigeons?

Tonepoet

@Ghalib Also, it depends upon what you mean by professor. =P

user288256

@Tonepoet Tone you are confusing people with that old dictionary.

Tonepoet

@Ghalib Also, it depends upon what you mean by professor. =P

user288256

17:10

@Tonepoet Also if this was eighteenth century and Noah Webster was alive I would tell you to... probably marry the dude. Your every statement is about Websters.

user288256

I'm just joking by the way.

Tonepoet

@Ghalib To be fair, the second statement does differ from the first.

Moreover, to be really fair, it's not as if my reverence is really so odd. It's just that it is held for a different target. I regard Noah Webster in the same manner as other people regard the Oxford English Dictionary.

terdon

@Tonepoet The difference is that the OED evolves while Webster's views, great as they may have been, do not.

Tonepoet

@terdon Evolution is the great unraveling of language.

terdon

We don't find it odd that you revere Webster, only that you seem to ignore any change in the language that happened after his death.

Mitch

17:22

Webster is a doctor but Mr. Dictionary is not

@terdon before his death even

Tonepoet

@Mitch Terdon's statement is actually more accurate. He was working on his dictionary 'till a few months prior to his death in 1843, and the result was published in 1844 printings of the dictionary, although granted, most of the changes occured in 1841 so it's commonly divided into the first edition (1828) and the second edition (1841).

Granted, differences between the two editions is quite minimal and amounts mostly to the addition of 5,000 new words to the 70,000 of the first.

Mitch

As usual you seem to ignore the direction of the joke. I'm playing off of 'you seem to ignore' not publish dates of books. I'm saying "you seem to ignore any change in the language that happened after his death....before his death even" meaning that you seem to have stopped considering language changes in English that happened even earlier than his death.

takes more meds

takes a deep breath

wonders if that is an allergic reaction to meds

wonders is all this wondering is a side affect of the allergic reaction to the meds

user288256

What type of meds do you take?

user288256

Or you mean hypothetical meds?

Mitch

writes up business plan for pharmaceutical companies to market deep breath taking meds

@Ghalib I've heard that there have been studies done that show that behavior changes due to inebriation is mostly culturally and not clinically caused.

Tonepoet

17:33

@Mitch I suspect you missed my point altogether Mitch, which was that he was still recording changes that were found to be relevant until his death, so there is no opportunity for a "before" to exist, unless you take it that language changes so rapidly that a dictionary is already out of date between the time that it is completed and its first printing.

user288256

@Tonepoet I regard Webster's Dictionary in probably the same manner as I regard the Oxford English Dictionary, not Noah Webster. Don't get me wrong, I mean no disrespect to the dude I just don't know much about him.

user288256

I mean, to me it is just an English dictionary.

Mitch

For example, football hooligan binge drinking behavior is because Brits, but for the same blood level alcohol percentage, Italian family dinner post prandial naps because mamma mia!

user288256

A book which I look into for meanings. Nothing more.

Mitch

@Tonepoet Argh. joke.

Tonepoet

17:37

@Ghalib And that's where we differ. I have learned quite a bit about his dictionary over the years, and I take it that it was one of the greatest influences on the language, and the book which really made dictionaries important, perhaps even moreso than Dr. Johnson's earlier effort.

user288256

@Mitch Oh, really? You mean "intoxication" right? So living here I could notice different results?

Tonepoet

There's more to it than that too, but chat is a poor medium for discussing such a great deal.

user288256

@Mitch Adding to my last comment someone told me yesterday that 0% alcohol beer (which I drink sometime) is same as a normal beer, in taste. Is that true? I mean I wouldn't know because I have always been a teetotaler.

Tonepoet

@Ghalib Have you ever used mouthwash?

user288256

@Tonepoet Chat is a great medium. Feel free to write what you want. I was just teasing you a little above.

user288256

17:46

@Tonepoet "Mouthwash"? Um why?

Tonepoet

@Ghalib It's a great medium for some things, but Dr. Webster's influence is something that could probably have a whole book written about it.

user288256

@Tonepoet Yes I have mouthwash at my house.

user288256

But prefer brushing my teeth like three times a day. I just like to brush my teeth after eating like anything.

Tonepoet

@Ghalib Most mouthwash has alcohol in it. Quite a large deal of it actually. Listerine has 26.9% alcohol content.

user288256

I mean after breakfast, lunch and dinner.

user288256

17:50

@Tonepoet Heh, I see.

Tonepoet

So even if you don't drink it to become intoxicated, you probably know what it tastes like from using mouthwash, which is to say it stings. Granted, 26.9% is a much higher alcohol content than any beverage though.

M.A.R.

I never drink mouthwash though

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. I bet you would if you lived in Alaska. Some regions in that state have gone so far as to ban the sale of bread yeast to prevent home brewing.

M.A.R.

Ouch, I misclicked the delete button.

Nevermind.

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. I couldn't read the entire message before you deleted it, but 'tis too late! I now know you're an extraterrestrial! =P

M.A.R.

17:59

SUBJECT TONEPOET KNOWS TOO MUCH AND NEEDS TO BE ELIMINATED

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…