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14:00
@user8469759 what reference grammars does Italian have?
Syntactic analysis will probably be what you're after then.
I think that should be what you're looking for
syntatic analysis
ok
If you have to separate into subfaculties, then it would be called 'syntax' in English
any reference you can suggest for that?
14:01
Not me, sorry.
of course there's overlap with semantics (you get changes in meaning by changes of position)
True. And you thought participation trophies were just for Little League ...
@user8469759 How deep do you want to go?
not much
@Robusto and the email deleted
14:01
just want to check whether or not there are concepts that I could classify as equivalent
@user8469759 then look at the wikipedia Syntax page
really
specifically complements
wikipedia is a great resource if you know little about the subject.
follow the links within wikipedia
where's the link?
I saw only semantic analysis
At the bottom of the page
14:03
There are many university texts on Syntax that will be too obscure
@Robusto It's a lot easier to hold people to account when you have their words in writing. Those with no letters are far harder to pin down.
@user8469759 He said "look at the wikipedia Syntax page", so presumably search for "Syntax" in wikipedia.
Also, this:
A parse tree or parsing tree or derivation tree or concrete syntax tree is an ordered, rooted tree that represents the syntactic structure of a string according to some context-free grammar. The term parse tree itself is used primarily in computational linguistics; in theoretical syntax, the term syntax tree is more common. Parse trees concretely reflect the syntax of the input language, making them distinct from the abstract syntax trees used in computer programming. Unlike Reed-Kellogg sentence diagrams used for teaching grammar, parse trees do not use distinct symbol shapes for different types...
So you're looking for something in English, not Italian. Right?
of course, english yes
@tchrist Also true. Plus sooooo many people can't write a cogent bit of writing on any scale.
14:04
did you mean this one?
In linguistics, syntax () is the set of rules, principles, and processes that govern the structure of sentences in a given language, specifically word order and punctuation. The term syntax is also used to refer to the study of such principles and processes. The goal of many syntacticians is to discover the syntactic rules common to all languages. In mathematics, syntax refers to the rules governing the behavior of mathematical systems, such as formal languages used in logic. (See logical syntax.) == Etymology == The word syntax comes from Ancient Greek: σύνταξις "coordination", which consists...
140 or bust
@user8469759 Google Translate must be getting better than I'd imagined.
@user8469759 It's still unclear (because the same looking word in two languages can have very different meanings). DO you care about what the pieces of a sentence mean in relation to each other, or do you care about the order of words in the sentence?
May I give you an example?
Yes!
Say I have this sentence
(Italian and english)
John stamattina e' andato a scuola ed e' stato picchiato dai bulli.
14:07
@Mitch esquisito
@tchrist haha still not clear
@Mitch I think usersomenumbers is trying to compare Italian linguistic jargon with English linguistic jargon, and to do so he wants to start with stuff in his high school textbook
Such as sentence functions
John this morning went to school and he has been beat up by bullies
for example
in the first one
John is the subject, stamattina (this morning) is a complement
@user8469759 That's one way.
@M.A.R. yeah. and English vs Italian may have a very different culture behind explaining those things
14:09
but in italian would be called specifically "complemento di tempo" (time complement because it specify "when")
etc
@user8469759 No, it's a sentence-adverbial.
It doesn't complete anything.
It's not an argument.
@Mitch or not. Considering how much of Persian high school grammar looks like English grammar
We mostly only use complement to mean a verbal argument.
14:10
I'm not asking to analyze the sentence
@M.A.R. depends on the current culture
@user8469759 Ok.
I was TRYING to give an example of what kind of analysis I'm trying to cover
8
Q: Quando e como é que "esquisito" adquiriu os significados pejorativos?

JacintoEsquisito, exquisite (inglês), exquis (francês) e exquisito (espanhol) derivam todos do latim exquisitus, que significa rebuscado, procurado, escolhido. Mas enquanto em português esquisito é usado (quase?) só pejorativamente, os cognatos nas outras três línguas mantiveram significados extremament...

and finding out whether or not there's an equivalent in english
but anyway
the goal would be
14:11
Sounds like you just want to categorize each word in the sentence as a specific part of speech.
So "this morning" is analyzed as a complement in Italian @user8469759?
spot subject, predicates, complementes (with related classification)
also the stage of education. I recognize some of the things user### is talking about but only from exactly that a highschool perspective (English language and literature), which I never ever saw in a university perspective (linguistics)
@terdon or large parts of the sentence, like the subject vs predicate
Ah no, sorry, not part of speech, I meant syntactic category.
@M.A.R. I think so, because it does answer to a specific question "when did John went to school" this morning
14:13
Wait, @Mitch you've studied linguistics?
if I dropped it the meaning of the sentence would be still clear
I thought you were a programmer and self-taught linguist.
I'm not an italian linguist anyway
@terdon subject and complement and predicate are terminology of language arts, nou nphrase, verb phrase are those of linguistics (with obvious overlap)
so don't take my words as gospel
I hope I'm explaining myself
14:14
@terdon can't you tell he's lived more than once?
@user8469759 if you clicked on the last link terdon provided, scroll to the bottom
@terdon labels are so limiting man
The lexical versus functional thing made my life so much easier
@user8469759 Yes, I think so.
@Mitch They are that. Seriously though, you've studied linguistics at university?
You've had some high-school experience with these terms and they seem sort of vague to you or at least not always so easy to apply in real life. And you want to get a clearer definition of the terms (by reading a book) so you can more confidently explain/understand some language phenomena.
@terdon Yes. But I don't have a degree specifically in linguistics. I don't have a degree in many things.
Physics for example.
OMG physics.
14:20
@Mitch @Mitch Was it a statement?
BTW @ter I'm reading a history book that's explaining what clues there are that Iranians and Indians are closely related
@M.A.R. Huh, interesting.
@terdon at one point in one of the many lives I've had that MAR refers to, I did research into...well things I've Ive completely forgotten... cross-linguistic analysis of anaphora resolution in relative clauses in children.
@Mitch Ah, right. Damn, I love that about the US system. How you can easily take courses in diverse subjects.
I can't spot the link
where the hell is it
14:21
Which now that I say that out loud, I only did the statistics for it. And maybe barely got a mention in acknowledgments.
@terdon They both sacrificed animals to Gods, they have both worshipped fire, in Iran as 'Azar' and in India as 'agni'
@terdon electives are great
I remember seeing "agni" as a common (part of) Indian surnames
@user8469759 Could be a question or a statement. Let's say it was a question. Is that what you are trying to do?
@M.A.R. Uhm. So has just about everyone else.
14:23
Fire was a symbol of justice, more or less, in both
I wonder if there are any ancient cultures that didn't sacrifice animals to god and worship fire.
@M.A.R. related ethnically, culturally, or just linguistically?
@Mitch yeah, maybe, I'm not sure, I'm just curious
@terdon Except those guys that sacrifice animals to fire and worship God. Those guys are weird
A parse tree or parsing tree or derivation tree or concrete syntax tree is an ordered, rooted tree that represents the syntactic structure of a string according to some context-free grammar. The term parse tree itself is used primarily in computational linguistics; in theoretical syntax, the term syntax tree is more common. Parse trees concretely reflect the syntax of the input language, making them distinct from the abstract syntax trees used in computer programming. Unlike Reed-Kellogg sentence diagrams used for teaching grammar, parse trees do not use distinct symbol shapes for different types...
14:24
@Mitch ethnically
is this the link you're talking about?
More precisely, the Vedic period.
The Vedic period (or Vedic age) (c. 1500 – c. 500 BCE) in Northern India at the Ganges bassin, has been named after the period in Indian history in Iron Age India during which the Vedas, the oldest scriptures of Hinduism, were composed. As described by the Indo-Aryan migration theory, during the early part of the Vedic period the Indo-Aryans settled into northern India, bringing with them their specific religious traditions. The associated culture (sometimes referred to as Vedic civilisation) was initially a tribal, pastoral society centred in the northwestern parts of the Indian subcontinent;...
@user8469759 who are you asking this question?
@user8469759 It may be that you're already OK with your highschool concepts and can move on to the next level and learn about formal syntax. Then you really do want to look into 'Syntax'
I want to be sure that's what I'm looking for
before digging in
because I don't want to put effort in something which is neither what I'm looking for
@user8469759 Or maybe... just start from 'Linguistics' and follow what you think sounds right/interests you.
14:28
@Mitch are you telling me this because I wasn't clear?
in what I'm looking for
?
@terdon but did everyone else call themselves "Ayria" or "Arya" or whatever?
@user8469759 I don't think you were not clear. I think it is unclear what is best for you to follow.
@M.A.R. ?
The least amount of effort for the greatest gain
@user8469759 do you want to read more about your high school topics, or do you want to just compare them to their English variants?
It's unclear why you want to do this
14:31
I'm just curious how english people (BE) learn about they're own language at school
@user8469759 ah..that's quite a different story
oh... British?
I can't answer that.
@terdon Apparently, both Vedic and ancient Iranian people referred to themselves as "Ayria"
british, yes
@M.A.R. OK
Which roughly means "gentle"
14:32
@M.A.R. haha. please.
@Mitch hey, the name wasn't my idea
When I create my own nation that takes over the world, I'm gonna call it 'The good people you can trust'
@user8469759 First, you'd have to ask them and most of us don't count. Second native speakers of English seldom formally learn anything to speak of about their own language's syntax and morphology.
@user8469759 haha I'm going to answer anyway for all Americans.
@tchrist really? so the average educated english guy probably studies a foreign language at school, but it doesn't know anything about his own language?
doesn't make much sense to me...
14:35
@tchrist I learned more about English by learning another language than I did in English language class.
@user8469759 Correct.
In English language or literature, in early post-elementary school (5th-8th grades), there is not much deep studying of grammar, but we do go over things like subject vs predicate, converting things into passive and back, but no where near the extent you get in studying English as a foreign language.
@tchrist Huh? Since when does the average educated English speaker study another language?
@terdon I was just getting to that.
@user8469759 We're not taught English. We learn to read and write and speak.
14:36
In US schools most grammar about English is learned when taking a foreign language (ie the english speaking student learns the grammar about English when learning the grammar about the foreign language they are trying to learn).
but I suppose you learn how to "write" properly...
that must involve some rudimentary sentence structure...
@KitZ.Fox dang it. Jinx
Yes, some basics. What's a noun, a verb, how do we make plurals, etc.
@terdon that's another issue.
@user8469759 You do realize you are talking to people from very different parts of the world and even different parts of the English speaking world, right?
14:37
but there is a language requirement in American schools.
But we're never taught things like how to make a question or do-support.
it is just not a top priority.
and the culture doesn't support learning language.
none of us here is a native english speaker?
because there's very little need.
@user8469759 I am.
14:38
So am I.
And Mitch and tchrist.
Me too!
@KitZ.Fox But native speakers already know how to inflect nouns and verbs. On occasion you get people whom somebody *learned wrong, but we try to fix that.
dammit. jinxed again
Everyone except me, that is
We're just each from different parts of the world but you seem to think that "English education" is monolithic.
14:38
Feeling left out
@tchrist Yes.
@M.A.R. Aww
You must have something in common...
@M.A.R. Don't worry. some americans feel left out for not feeling left out
@M.A.R. We both have initials.
14:39
millenial problems
sigh
@user8469759 What do yo umean?
@KitZ.Fox I have an initial!
looks for initial somewhere
@Mitch raises eyebrow
@user8469759 Why? There are many countries in the world where English is the official language. And even for those who grew up in the same country, you need to take age into account. The educational system someone would go through in country X during the 50s will not be the same as that available today.
@user8469759 we have all become punproof after @Mitch's pun attacks
14:40
@Mitch And lo there were thousand asses borne every minute away from corral.
@tchrist it doesn't matter, I don't want to get out of track here...
@KitZ.Fox I DO SUPPORT DO-SUPPORT
@user8469759 oh, that's another thing we have in common
Although I think it is globally true that native English speakers learn other languages more rarely than other nations.
With the possible exceptions of France, Italy and Spain who're also horrible at toher languages.
There really isn't a such thing as "English-language training" in the standard anglosphere education, even though we're required to take a full year of "English" every single year till we graduate.
14:41
We don't need other languages as much as other nations do.
Present company excepted, @user8469759, your English seems fine.
I'm getting an headache
@tchrist By the time you are able to read competently, English class focuses on literature and composition, not language.
@terdon when sense when ESL's primary objective is doing stuff with English they can't do with their own language
I think the best thing to do is probably taking two books
an italian grammar for foreign learners (english)
and an english one for foreign learners
14:42
@KitZ.Fox Sophomore year was "speech".
@M.A.R. Sorry, couldn't parse that.
digging into them
@user8469759 there are great reference grammars, but they're way too long
and maybe I'll be able to spot what I'm looking for
@tchrist I saw someone having avocado toast the other day.
For real
14:43
And too many Kim examples
And I openly desired it
Hey, I'm Canadian Eh? I can opine on this!
@Mitch Stoned lawyers, eh?
Stop it.
We don't learn much formal grammar either
You're stealing my lignes.
14:43
@terdon haha. and other countries too!
I'm not sure what you mean by formal grammar...
It's not like I have to write down a syntax tree for an english sentence
@Mitch I think those three and the UK are the worst linguists in Europe. Not that I have any hard data, mind you.
not at university level at least
@tchrist Oh we had a club for that. I won second place in domestic extemporaneous speaking one year.
for my speech on the Gulf War.
@tchrist cute
@user8469759 Students are taught how to spell, a bit about basic categories of words like nouns, verbs, adverbs, etc, a bit about the passive voice vs active voice.
14:46
@terdon I think the distinction is that it is more common for a well-educated American/Brit to not be fluent (or even workable) in another language than anywhere else. TO be considered well-educated in any other country, knowing another language is often necessary.
@KitZ.Fox Yes, we had a forensics "club", which had extemp has a category. They always made me do that category because I could bullshit more authoritatively in well-formed sentences than my peers. :)
Basically, grammar is emphasized just enough that if you write sentences that don't conform to the "standard" they can dock points
@tchrist I did a terrible job.
And this concept trickles down a bit, it is more likely that some one not considered well educated would know another language. In US/UK, no one would expect anyone even with a college degree to know another language. It's just not in the cultural expectations.
May show you a quick video?
just to be sure I made myself clear of what I'm looking for
14:48
Quick question: If a mod types "possible duplicate of X" in a comment, will that count like a dupe flag? Because I just saw one and there wasn't a binding vote, but I could VtC as dupe.
@Mitch Not for the three I mentioned. That's why I lumped them together.
Italian has a far richer set of verbal inflections than has English. I don't know whether that has any effect on education of native speakers, but it might.
@M.A.R. No, if you just write it in it won't count so maybe the mod wasn't sure about it and wanted to make a suggestion. Or maybe the comment was from before they became a mod.
guys?
are you with me?
Well alright. That was just weird.
14:49
@KitZ.Fox I was in high school forensics for five years, but forget most of it.
@user8469759 we are
can I have 3 minutes of your time
ok
Comparative study between English and Italian
that's an example of what I mean
14:50
And no, I wasn't in high school for five years. In middle school they shuffled me off to high school for a bunch of stuff.
for such kind of analysis do you have a specific name?
Grammar.
@user8469759 Non vedo nulla in italiano lì. :)
@tchrist because I'm looking for the english stuff..
anyway
that's grammar ok
I agree
@terdon I'm deriving an argument via hidden anecdotal data. I see politicians from those big three (wait..not as much Italy) speaking fluent (acented) English all the time. But It would never occur to me that US/UK/Aus/etc to speak another language at all. It's just not done.
14:51
but we have for example
two kind of analysis
grammar analysis
where we study tenses, conjugation of a verb etc
and logical analysis
where we study exactly what the author of the video is showing
Canada gets a pass because the Anglo politicians actually do all speak that variety French that sounds like a sausage extruded through a car muffler in use.
subject predicates etc
I remember as a child being assigned exercises where we underlined the subject ones and the predicate twice. I cannot recall when that was.
and I was wondering whether or not you have a specific part of the grammar that studies such stuff
if not I give up xD, I don't wanna lose my mind
"part of the grammar that studies such stuff"?
14:53
@Mitch Oh, yes, absolutely anecdotal which is why I clarified I have no hard evidence. But I have spent a few years living in each of those countries except Italy so it's not complete hearsay. And they, along with the Germans, are the only countries that dub their movies which means that while they do take English at school, they have very little contact with it in later life.
BTW @user8, I wanted to share this chat message with ya but I realized you're the guy who asked for a reference grammar, so I'm just reminding you to tell you this is some sound advice:
Sounds like syntactic analysis. Maybe the lost art of sentence diagrams.
in Language Overflow, yesterday, by userr2684291
@user8469759 Yeah, The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, or the abridged, light version: A Student's Introduction to English Grammar.
And speaking at least basic English is almost a prerequisite for political office. That said, the French and Spanish politicians don't tend to speak any. Macron being a notable exception.
Especially the light version seems to be exactly what you need
14:54
Let me have a look
@terdon The EU diplomats all speak English amongst themselves.
Is it a HUGE book?
Hi @tchrist, I'm trying to find the post that notes the use of the asterisk for marking intentional bad examples posted on EL&U. I've tried looking on the help pages, searching the main and meta sites, as well as googling with the site:english.stackexchange.com constraint. I thought to look in the blog as well, but that seems to have been taken down completely now. Any tips on where else to look?
@Lawrence It's simply standard notation in professional linguistics literature.
I don't know that we've ever explained it; maybe, though.
@Mitch You'd think so, wouldn't you? Well, maybe true for diplomats, but not so for politicians. Not always, anyway. Not as much as you'd expect. In any case, those aren't representative of the general populace.
14:57
@tchrist Sentence diagramming or Kellogg-Reed diagramming is what we learned in 7th grade. The parse trees you learn in university linguistics is much easier to use and more accurate.
@tchrist It might be mentioned in that global style meta post. Let me see if I can find it.
@tchrist I seem to remember a question with answers that explains it.
@Mitch As I remarked yesterday, I find it really hard to remember stuff from more than forty years ago.
@tchrist Ok, thanks. I might have seen it elsewhere, then. Do you know whether the blogs are archived anywhere?
But what you said sounds right.
14:59
It's like binary. no one teaches it but you're assumed to know it well.
@Lawrence I wonder if it's in our Help Center.
@tchrist I skimmed that, too. (Didn't find anything promising, but I might have missed it.)

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