English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

01:56

Raise your hand if the verb to lay hand to means anything to you.

choster

02:10

Would that be the inverse of to raise a hand on?

Cerberus

@tchrist Well, I would understand it in an older text.

And I wouldn't be surprised.

tchrist

@Cerberus That's what I was surprised to learn.

Cerberus

You were surprised that the expression was once so phrased?

tchrist

No.

I didn't know I wasn't supposed to use it any longer.

Cerberus

Ah, I would have been surprised had it been otherwise.

You may still use it.

tchrist

02:14

Thanks. I feel empowered.

Cerberus

Good.

In Dutch, we have de hand leggen op and de hand leggen aan.

But also de hand slaan aan.

tchrist

> So I practised with ever shootin iron I could lay hand to.
Then the congregation appointed an ad hoc committee to look after both the premier shrines but not to lay hand to their money or property.
Or 'Better for man not to lay hand to a woman,' or 'The man who has no wife expresses concern for God, and wants to please him, while the man with a wife expresses concern for worldly matters, because he wants to please his wife.
My dear Scheff, I have your letter all right, though unable at this moment to lay hand to it.

What's slaan?

Cerberus

Slay.

Or, rather, "hit".

De hand leggen op = put one's hands on, get a hold of, acquire.

De laatste hand leggen aan = to finish.

tchrist

I see.

Cerberus

De hand slaan aan = to lay hands on, to grasp, to attack physically.

Van de hand slaan = to decline. Somehow, it is a lot more polite than its litteral meaning would suggest.

De handen ineen slaan = to cast hands together, to engage in a concerted effort.

tchrist

02:25

Lots of handy expressions you have there.

> % oed '\bhands?\b' | grep '← hand'
› all hands ← hand
› a man of his hands ← hand
a safe pair of hands ← hand [n.1]
› as bare, flat, as one’s hand ← hand
› at (on, upon) any hand, at no hand ← hand
› at a bad hand, at the worst hand ← hand
› at every hand ← hand
› at (the) first hand ← hand
› at first hand ← hand
at hand ← hand
› at hands ← hand
› at the best hand, at the better hand, at the dear hand ← hand
› at the hand, at hand unto, at one’s own hand ← hand
› at the hand(s of ← hand
better hand ← hand

Have some more! :)

This is better:

> % oed '\bhands?\b' | grep lay
› baby age, brow, dance, face, hand, -language, mind, -name, -play, sole, talk ← baby
display hand ← diˈsplay
† hand-laying ← hand
playing hand ← playing [adj.]
› poker-deck, -game, hand, -player, table ← ˈpoker
› prentice-boy, -girl, -lad, -player, -years, prentice ear, hand, stroke, work, prentice-like ← prentice
› to have a hand in the pie, to play into a person’s hands ← hand
› to lay (a) hand ← lay
› to lay to one’s hand(s ← lay
› to lay violent hands on ← lay

Cerberus

We have many of those, and others.

tchrist

I would think sol; hand-laying is pretty Germanic.

Cerberus

02:48

Hmm.

Just win baby

He acts as if to lay hand to such issues is below him.

Las Vegas Raiders

05:54

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Tonepoet

I wonder if it would be possible to write a script that automatically answers general reference questions.

It seems like it should be easy to fetch an entry from Wiktionary for "What does X mean" questions or X vs. X questions at least (Wiktionary because it's liberally licensed).

@tchrist My guess is that it sounds like an archaic version of "Lay your hands on". I could easily see something transitioning from "Lay your hands to" to "Lay your hands onto" to "lay your hands on".

I don't even recollect "to raise a hand on" though, so maybe I'm just being foolish...

user288256

09:57

@MetaEd What's a "ghot"?

user288256

Urban Dictionary is boring.

user288256

@Tonepoet I'm always hearing xyz is "the best book ever". Have you read Gone with the Wind?

user288256

I don't know anyone in real life who has read it. Its movie is more common/renowned I guess?

user288256

People are more into Harry Potter etc. these days, or maybe my circle doesn't have older people who might have read Gone with the Wind type novels.

user288256

10:15

@Sayros Assalamu'alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh brother.

Sayros

@Ghalib wa alaikom salem :) brother ^^

how is it going ?

user288256

It's the English version or the transliterated version of the greeting if you may.

Sayros

yes it's correct

user288256

@Sayros It's going well.

Sayros

hamdoulelleh :)

Andrew Leach

10:29

Use English in chat, please. Not that there is an issue with the content of those lines, but we do still check.

user288256

@AndrewLeach Morning Andrew.

user288256

But people talk in Spanish etc. here all the time.

Andrew Leach

There have been many instances of chatters using other languages to attempt to hide content.

I don't believe people should be conversing here in Spanish.

user288256

I see. Then it is fair.

user288256

I thought maybe it is because it is Arabic that people have an issue with.

user288256

10:35

I mean, I am totally cool with chatting only in English. But then the rule should apply to everyone, including the mods that talk in Spanish here (often)

Andrew Leach

Arabic is one of the more impenetrable languages as it's not a Romance language. However, discussion of foreign words or phrases shouldn't actually continue to a Spanish conversation (which I guess/hope is what happens).

user288256

And Portuguese etc.

Andrew Leach

For example, I know the al- prefix in algebra and algorithm is Arabic, and there would be nothing to stop discussion of that. And that might even include whole phrases in Arabic.

It's starting a conversation in a foreign language which I don't think is really on.

Las Vegas Raiders

as long as you mix a little english in once and awhile it's ok :-)

(for those trying to follow along)

We embrace all languages here

3

Translation is an important topic.

user288256

@AndrewLeach Okay, thanks for letting me know. Here is an example of what I was talking about. There are many such instances in chat here, I'm sure. And, it's only an example, but kindly tell me, how is that different from striking a conversation in Arabic (English form)?

user288256

10:46

I guess it all boils down to me not having enough internet points?

user288256

I'm not taking it personally, but what you are saying should sound fair for people to follow it.

user288256

No further comment I guess.

Andrew Leach

@Ghalib No, I don't think that's on.

I'll raise it with others.

user288256

I see.

user288256

Okay, thank you.

Sayros

10:52

@AndrewLeach yes but it's a greeting way thats all :)

M.A.R.

11:45

@Ghalib the problem with non-English chat messages is they can get flagged like any other message, but the flag might get approved by some reckless 10k user from the other side of chat. So it's a use-at-your-own-risk kinda situation.

Cerberus

@Mitch I'm sure you would pick up on it!

Las Vegas Raiders

It is necessary to conflate three heads on a dog's body to produce a Cerberus.

Did you pick up on that^

M.A.R.

I always conflate Cerberus with Cerbrus

The latter is a user in another chat

And this is one of the reasons I have resorted to calling him @Verb

@Cerb, stupid autocorrect

And well, another reason could be "Cerb" meaning "Serbian" in Persian

@tchrist is this pinned solely because it's pinned, or are you gonna literally figuratively throw SWR to the trashcan?

Is there going to be a future meta announcement that SWR is banned?

It'd be kinda extreme

Tonepoet

12:16

@Ghalib No, I have not read Gone with the Wind. I did buy a copy quite recently though. The statement was not meant to be one regarding my personal favor, which is why I deferred to the American Library Association in the manner I did. I have no right to judge since I am not as well read as I would like to be before making that assessment.

@Ghalib Also, it makes a great deal of sense that people would be more interested with Harry Potter. This is not only because it is a much more recent series, but also because there have been some additions to it recently. Officially speaking, the additions are intended to be plays rather than books like the originals, but they would rekindle interest in the books nevertheless.

Harry Potter and the Cursed Child

Harry Potter and the Cursed Child is a two-part West End stage play written by Jack Thorne based on an original new story by Thorne, J. K. Rowling and John Tiffany. Previews of the play began at the Palace Theatre, London on 7 June 2016, and it officially premiered on 30 July 2016. As the first brand-new Wizarding World story in nearly a decade, it became the official eighth Harry Potter story. The rehearsal script, which was not a novelisation of the play, was published. The story begins nineteen years after the events of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows and follows Harry Potter, now a Ministry...

user288256

@Tonepoet Nice to see you again professor. Hope you are well.

user288256

@Tonepoet I see.

user288256

You know what I don't like in chats here, hivemind starring messages that they all happen to agree with. It's childish, and I think starboard should be abolished, or perhaps, should only be kept for 'serious announcements'.

user288256

12:31

Starring messages like that is like an indirect fight or an indirect argument. Like a dogwhisle kind of thing. It's is pretty low brow.

user288256

Just sayin'

Felipe Oliveira

13:05

Hello, I've been learning english for about 10 years, I can pretty much speak the language, but every now and then I have some grammar questions... Should I use this site or the English Learners, I can't tell the difference. Thanks

Las Vegas Raiders

A good approach would be to start with the English Learners site and work your way up. In my opinion.

user8469759

hi guys

I don't know how many of you are familiar with italian

but basically we have a thing called "analisi logica"

and I was wondering whether there's something similar in english

basically through the analisi logica we study the semantic of italian sentences

not the grammatical structure

we use grammar rule to infer the semantic

that's the thing

but is there something similar in english?

user288256

13:46

Morning @KitZ.Fox. Can I talk to you here for a moment if you are free?

Kit Z. Fox

@Ghalib Yes, I was going to respond just now to the conversation above. Is that what you wanted to talk about?

Mitch

@user8469759 Are you looking for the term used in linguistics for this? Or is it a general term in literature?

Kit Z. Fox

Also, assalamu'alaikum!

Mitch

'Logical analysis' is probably the direct translation (I do not know Italian)

user8469759

(yes that's the one)

user288256

13:52

@KitZ.Fox Walaikum asalam :)

user8469759

the translation I mean

user288256

@KitZ.Fox Yeah, but not exactly. I have another thing to talk about Kit.

Kit Z. Fox

@Ghalib OK. Do you want to speak privately, or here is OK?

user8469759

however I was more wondering if there's a specific branch in linguistic for that

assuming I'm making myself clear of what I'm talking about

user288256

@KitZ.Fox Yeah, privately please. Thanks a lot.

Kit Z. Fox

13:53

OK it will take a bit. Let me get it set up.

user288256

Sure.

terdon

@user8469759 I'm not a linguist but it sounds like you want semantic analysis.

Mitch

@user8469759 right, but it's not a special term in English. If you are analyzing the semantics of a sentence, you will probably use logic and that process might be called logical analysis in English, but it is not a set phrase, it is not a technical term for something bigger than just 'analysis of the logic'

terdon

Semantic analysis (linguistics)

In linguistics, semantic analysis is the process of relating syntactic structures, from the levels of phrases, clauses, sentences and paragraphs to the level of the writing as a whole, to their language-independent meanings. It also involves removing features specific to particular linguistic and cultural contexts, to the extent that such a project is possible. The elements of idiom and figurative speech, being cultural, are often also converted into relatively invariant meanings in semantic analysis. Semantics, although related to pragmatics, is distinct in that the former deals with word ...

user8469759

@terdon probably that's the thing I want

however I'm asking because

I'd like to find a reference for that

terdon

13:54

On the other hand, Italian WP has this:

Analisi logica della proposizione

L'analisi logica, o sintassi, è il procedimento mediante il quale si riconoscono i componenti di un periodo o di una frase. == Struttura dell'analisi logica == === Le frasi in analisi logica === Si distinguono tre tipi di frasi: la frase minima, la frase semplice, la frase completa o complessa. La frase minima è composta da due elementi: soggetto e predicato verbale o nominale. La frase semplice ha senso compiuto ed è composta da soggetto, verbo, complementi o espansioni. La frase completa o complessa, possiede le caratteristiche della frase semplice, ma sono presenti più predicati (ogn...

But there's no links to any other language there. And the English page for semantic analysis, links to analisi semantica in Italian.

You might be better off asking in Linguistics or their chat. That's where the actual linguists hang out. We only have a few here.

Mitch

@user8469759 In the science of linguistics, yes it would come under the (very broad) heading of semantics. The subfield of that that talks about the meaning of a sentence, studying what pronoun refers to what noun, what acts on what, etc, is probably 'formal semantics'. But 'logical analysis' will work just as well.

haha or what @terdon said

user8469759

this is what wikipedia says

Las Vegas Raiders

@terdon can mods set up private rooms that nobody can see?

user8469759

L'analisi logica, o sintassi, è il procedimento mediante il quale si riconoscono i componenti di un periodo o di una frase.

(I'll translate in english)

Mitch

sintassi = syntax

user8469759

13:57

"Logical analysis, or syntax, is the process used to recognize the components of a period or a sentence"

terdon

@LasVegasRaiders Kinda. Other mods of the chat room's parent site will be ab;e to see them as will SE employees. But no "foreign" mods or regular users.

user8469759

La frase minima è composta da due elementi: soggetto e predicato verbale o nominale. La frase semplice ha senso compiuto ed è composta da soggetto, verbo, complementi o espansioni (I'll translate in english)

Mitch

it seems then that the Italian term 'L'analisi logica' really is 'syntax' in English, not semantics.

terdon

Certainly sounds like semantic analysis to my non-expert ear.

M.A.R.

@terdon "Semantic analysis of prepositions"?

terdon

13:58

@M.A.R. Not sure if that's preposition or proposition. Or both.

user8469759

guys to clarify I'm not looking for a translation of "Analisi logica"

Mitch

Semantics is about meaning, syntax is the order of words in a sentence or how the components of a word are put together

user8469759

I'm trying to find out whether or not in english there's something similar, find a reference for that and have a read through that

in italy we study such stuff in high school

M.A.R.

@terdon on second thought, "propositions" would probably make more sense

user8469759

so I'm looking for a reference at that level

terdon

13:59

Oh, high school?

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…