English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Færd

00:33

I think only is more often used as an adverb, and is shifted into an adjectival position mostly to reduce ambiguity, or induce clarity, and, because of this conscious shift, may carry more weight and emphasis.

In speech, though, the intonation and stress that you put on certain words can determine what is meant to be modified by only:

> I only KISSED your sister last night.
> I only kissed YOUR sister last night.
> I only kissed your SISTER last night.
> I only kissed your sister LAST NIGHT.

You don'n have this privilege in writing.

And, while the positioning and the order is important, I guess that's not the sole reason why adjectival only can ring more distinctly in your ear.

(There's an entry in Practical English Usage headed "only: focusing adverb". Took some of this from there.)

tchrist

I do think making it an adjective strengthens it, if only for the comparative rarity.

Færd

Hmm.

(Correction: ring more distinct)

tchrist

@Cerberus Dunno if you've seen this...

Eddie Izzard on Latin

►

The gibberish is usually Dog Latin, or sometimes German or French.

Tonepoet

01:29

@NVZ I think Josh predicated that edit on the theory that views is the subject and it's plural, which normally calls for do. I think I'd probably say does myself though, if I wasn't thinking about it. I'm not sure why. Can What be considered the subject?

One thing that's particularly odd about the sentence is that it could be rephrased as "What does/do a hundred thousand views...", even though the indefinite article is typically used in singular contexts to my recollection.

Regardless, if Josh insists his own question should use do, I don't see a sufficient reason not to indulge him on the matter.

SmokeDetector

04:33

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with a link in answer: What's the grammatical rationale behind "never ever" by windows movie maker on english.SE

Leaky Nun

07:56

@tchrist por que latin "dormientem" con "o" se vuelve a espanol "durimendo" con "u"?

Martin AJ

10:35

Which one is correct?

> Where are you living in?

> Where are you living at?

user288256

@MartinAJ Both are correct depending on the context. For example, "Where are you living (in NewYork)?" and "Where are you living (at the moment)?"

Martin AJ

Ah I see, thx

user288256

You are welcome.

Martin AJ

Is English your native?

user288256

No. I'm a native speaker of Urdu but I have been studying English all my life.

user288256

10:39

I'm not perfect at it though

user288256

I still make mistakes sometimes

Martin AJ

I see, good

Tonepoet

@MartinAJ This sidesteps the original question a little, but I much prefer "Where do you live?" to either of those. However, if it must be one of the two, without further context of the sort @Ghalib mentioned, At is more common than In without further context. Have a look at this Google ngram.

Martin AJ

Ah, Got it, thank you

user288256

@Tonepoet Morning. Tone take a look at that graph, I don't think you can compare "Where do you live?" with either of those questions. Those questions are asking for specifics mostly. Thanks for the response though.

user288256

10:53

You will have to search the whole thingy like "Where are you living in New York?" OR "Where are you living at the moment?"

user288256

I guess.

user288256

I agree that "Where do you live?" makes for a simple enough question.

Martin AJ

Also guys, do you know any alternative for "reflection" in this sentence?

> What happens when you engage reflection?

user288256

Reflection is a nice word to use there, but your sentence should be "What happens when you engage in reflection?" "Reflection" means "Serious thought or consideration"

user288256

Or "a thought, idea, or opinion formed or a remark made as a result of meditation"

user288256

11:07

You could also use these words: "What happens when you engage in contemplation/musing/rumination etc."

Tonepoet

11:45

@Ghalib I think you have neglected to consider that it is quite commonplace to end sentences in prepositions to invite fragment answers. You could possibly answer "Where are you living at?" with New York just the same as you could with the question "Where do you live?"

Also, I meant to say questions instead of sentences, but I suppose it's effectively the same thing given the context of fragment answers...

user288256

12:02

@Tonepoet I see, thank you. That hadn't crossed my mind.

user288256

@Tonepoet Btw in this context I can say both "That hadn't crossed my mind." and "That didn't cross my mind" right?

user288256

And that's a big pdf, what do I look in it?

Tonepoet

@Ghalib Search for the word preposition (there are only 19 instances of the word in the document) and see the question/answer examples.

@Ghalib I think so, but I am not quite sure.

user288256

ok gracias

Mitch

12:26

@MartinAJ both are wrong.

user288256

@Tonepoet By the way, Tonepoet, sometimes your writing seems like it is looking for that mic drop moment, I'm just kidding, you write well. I mean statements like "I think you have neglected to consider that it is..." sound like a blame, you can be 100% sure I didn't take it in the wrong way by the way, I'm just pointing it out. :)

Mitch

If you want to know where some one lives then it is 'Where do you live?'

One might say 'What are you living in? If you are standing in front of someone's residence and it looks like a receptacle: a box, a dumpster, a shipping container, etc

I'm having trouble coming up with a situation where you live at some location. So it sounds really wrong

user288256

Or you can even ask "What are you living in?" when you want to know whether someone is living in a car, a trailer etc.

Mitch

Maybe in some Southern or AAVE accent 'Where you at?' But that's very particular

user288256

Or you can ask a hamster "What are you living in these days?" to elicit a response like "The usual cage. Pfft."

Mitch

12:44

Another mistake is 'How do you call X in English?'

It's either:

How do you say X?

Or What do you call X?

Any others?

user288256

@Mitch You mean questions? Of course. Can you answer my question from above please.?

Martin AJ

@Mitch Ah, I see

Which one is correct?

> You catch things on quick

> You catch things quickly

curiousdannii

14:22

@MartinAJ I can't think of any case where the first would be correct. It's either "You catch things quickly" or "You catch on quickly" with very difference meanings

Mitch

14:49

@MartinAJ can you elaborate on what you are trying to say? Are you trying to have something that is falling to land in your hands? Or are you incrementally understanding a situation?

@Ghalib both sound just fine, have slightly different intentions, but the first one is for a more common situation

Hadn't implied that you feel like you should have. Didn't i

plies that ... well it's mostly the same. But use hadn't

Tonepoet

15:05

@Mitch I can think of a few, like if you're giving your address to a cab driver. For instance, perhaps you could say:

I live at 458 McAllister St. You can pick me up there.

Leaky Nun

@tchrist did you read my message?

user288256

@Mitch ok thnx

Cerberus

@tchrist Haha I presume he didn't have a good time in school...

Tonepoet

@MartinAJ "You catch things quickly" will be interpreted as prose literally referring the catching of things that are being thrown fast or falling suddenly. "You catch onto things quickly" will be interpreted as an idiom meaning you learn fast.

Although it can also be said as "you catch on quickly" and we don't say "catch on things quickly" without the "-to", as @curiousdannii implicitly suggested,.

user288256

I'm always mixing up implicitly and explicitly

Tonepoet

15:17

@Ghalib Explicit is what you externally say , and implicit is one letter off the mark from having the same relationship with internal thinking.

I'm not sure if that'll actually help you remember the difference, but it's worth a shot.

user288256

@Tonepoet Ah yah thanks. But this is what confuses me sometimes, take a look at this sentence from a dictionary "he trusted Sarah implicitly". Here they are using it in a "without qualification: absolutely." sense. And then there is the usual, first meaning "she implicitly suggested that he was responsible for the error"

user288256

In this sense "in a way that is not directly expressed; tacitly."

user288256

I mean the "without qualification: absolutely." meaning sounds like the "explicitly" word.

Tonepoet

@Ghalib That's an odd use of the word, though I won't complain since Dr. Webster seemed to recognize it. It seems to me as if it means to convey that you have shown some faith in Sarah, without verbally expressing it in some way.

terdon

@Ghalib That's not what it means, really. It's more that because of his relationship with Sarah, whom he presumably knew very well, he trusted her implicitly. So his trust in her was implicit in their relationship. It's still carrying the meaning of internal.

Mitch

15:31

@Tonepoet OK. But that still doesn't mean 'Where are you living at?' sounds grammatical.

So you live between two ferns. That doesn't mean 'Where are you living between?' is right (it isn't at all).

terdon

@Mitch No it doesn't. But that's interesting, come to think of it. Why if I live at 14 fool's lane is perfectly fine, can we not also ask Where do you live at?

user288256

@terdon oh okay, thank you

Tonepoet

@Mitch Strictly speaking, I see nothing wrong with the statement as a matter of syntax. I think many questions are phrased similarly. Surely you wouldn't object to a question such as "Where are you going to?" for instance. That particular phrasing is just unidiomatic.

user288256

@Tonepoet I see. You can see those examples here if you want.

Mitch

@Tonepoet It's a very natural use of the word these days. I hear that all the time.

terdon

15:35

Same here. I would even say that to trust someone implicitly is a set phrase.

Mitch

@Tonepoet It sounds a little off. Would sound much better saying "where are you going?"

@terdon inherently

exdubitably

@terdon language isn't logical

except when it is.

terdon

True dat.

Mitch

It's not logical when its not logical

terdon

And English is among the least logical of an already illogical bunch.

Mitch

Also, it's not just English.

So this time... sigh ... we can't blame the English

terdon

15:39

The Welsh?

Mitch

They have their own problems

The Irish on the other hand.

terdon

We can always blame the Irish!

Mitch

Their spelling is the worst because it is entirely rule based, just the depth of exceptions and context dependence and exceptions to exceptions is too much.

terdon

They started WWI, you know.

Mitch

@terdon I'm not surprised.

The only thing worse than English cuisine is Irish

even using the word cuisine makes me a little nauseous

wait...scandinavian cuisine

Tonepoet

15:42

@Mitch I'd prefer it that way too, but I've heard it both ways. There are some reports of it on Quora and even here too.

Mitch

but it shouldn't make the English and Irish feel much better not being absolute dead last

Southern Chinese cuisine is very refined, if you can get past the idea that you don't want to know what animal part that is.

@Tonepoet OMG. Quora. At least Urban Dictionary tries to be funny.

Leaky Nun

@Mitch The Q here is so beautiful (sorry for random

Tonepoet

@Mitch I don't see what makes Quora so much worse of a website than what we've got.

Mitch

@Tonepoet haha just looked at that link. I know it looks bad to say bad things bout others but... just assume I said something bad about Quora.

Tonepoet

@Mitch As you can probably tell, I already deduced that. =P

user288256

15:47

@Mitch I would say at least Quora doesn't close questions like our sites. That's a BIG plus man. I mean don't get me wrong I like SE sites, but they are less harsher and friendlier.

user288256

@Tonepoet True that

Mitch

@Tonepoet Also 1) thanks for doing the web research into it 2) but neither of those links supports 'where are you going to?'

@Tonepoet there are quora-level quality problems here too.

Tonepoet

@Mitch Fair enough.

Mitch

@Ghalib The architecture here is to have strong moderation which might mean closing/deleting questions for poor quality (I have a feeling Quora allows that to but it's not obvious. possibly they have mods that have to spend a lot of time doing that)

yahoo answer is total crap because they have no mods (and also does not draw experts)

quora draws experts for some things, eg "can a 747 do a complete roll before crashing?" might get a 747 pilot or NTSB official, but for the most part otherwise you get lots of yahoo like questions and answers

quora depends on the topic. their top level questions are crap things like 'what would happen if a vampire and a werewolf had children?'. but then every so often I'll see a question like 'what are the different therapies that go with the different varieties of the EGFR gene for colon cancer?' with answers from researchers in exactly that narrow field.

user288256

@Mitch "poor quality" is subjective, really. When I Google a query (an English query) sometimes I see results, results at sites like Quora that are better than here and sometimes I see questions at sites like Quora, that are there, but would be closed or deleted here in an instant, and the answer to those questions are worth reading and make sense. So I am not sure what the criteria of "poor quality" is here really.

Mitch

15:55

Here... yes there's a lot of crap answers (even those that are formatted properly).

Tonepoet

@Mitch Considering the context of the question, in the quora link, the second to last line in the top voted answer by Don suggests it's often used by people in the U.S. south. As for here, this answer and this one too are the answers I'm looking at. They're not exactly the most persuasive posts, but they serve as cursory evidence for casual discussion.

Mitch

@Ghalib ELU has a particular culture that you may not care for then. Sure there are problems here as well as there.

user288256

Yeah

Mitch

Maybe ELL is a better fit?

user288256

Nah. I like ELU not ELL.

Mitch

15:58

where they are more likely to answer anything with a discussiony flavor?

@Tonepoet that's exactly what I mentioned well above (search for Southern or AAVE). If a language learner is asking a question, usually they are not asking about non-standard varieties.

Also doesn't account for the many more distinct BrE varieties that may end with 'at'.

Tonepoet

@Mitch I hadn't considered the possibility of it being regional, nor had I noticed you mentioning it. Moreover, not I am not fully persuaded it's nonstandard in consideration of the whole answer fragment I mentioned earlier. What seems likely to me is that it's noticed more in dixie land because they're not actively trying to speak with posh rules like "Don't end your sentences with a preposition".

More data is required to make any firm conclusions though.

Also, I skipped an I. Please kill me. XP

user288256

Allow me XP

user288256

Just kidding. Kidding :D

Tonepoet

@Ghalib That's the first time I've seen anybody else use that emoticon in a long time, or at least not without making a Windows joke out of it.

user288256

@Tonepoet Yeah, well, I was trying to copy you, on purpose.

user288256

16:09

It does look like XP Windows. True.

user288256

Make it like this perhaps: "xP"?

Tonepoet

@Ghalib I don't know about you, but my eyes aren't off to one side of my head.

user288256

haha

user288256

Nah, I'm quite handsome. But you don't know. Yet. xP

tchrist

No flirtatious batting of lashes in this chat.

user288256

16:13

Sorry :)

tchrist

Tonepoet

@tchrist I wouldn't bring my B.D.S.M. kinks into this chat room (if I had any). =P

tchrist

user288256

@Tonepoet I wasn't aware of that fetish. You mean the "flirtatious batting of lashes" right?

Tonepoet

@Ghalib There isn't. I'm just making a joke about whips, although the batting part does seem to throw a different sort of kink into my design.

user288256

16:19

Oh I see. Hah.

user288256

Let's just talk about grammar for now, shall we? xP

barrycarter

Flirtatious batting; nothing about whips or chains; we speak grammar here

Tonepoet

@Ghalib Well the first thing you need to learn is that whatever you think grammar might mean, I'm the only person who's going to be satisfied if it's not syntax or morphology here. XP

Mitch

@Tonepoet an answer fragment by someone who doesn't seem like they actually know things. Also the prep at the end is a straw man on your part. Many of the 'correct' alternatives have preps at the end. 'What do you live in?'

user288256

@Tonepoet Gotcha! :D

Mitch

16:27

Phonosemantics

Bioceramics

Tonepoet

@Mitch A box.

Mitch

Quantum aromatherapy

@Tonepoet I think you mean 'a box'

tchrist

@LeakyNun Some of the -ir verbs raise o,e > u, i in certain important inflectations: dormir > duermo, durmió, durmiendo; sentir > siento, sintió, sintiendo

Leaky Nun

@tchrist I'm asking you about the sound change

Mitch

Or rather you mean " 'a box' "

I meant to say " 'a box' "

Tonepoet

16:30

@Mitch I meant "Ei bawks." actually but thanks for noticing my slip-up.

Mitch

I mean ' " 'a box' " '

tchrist

@LeakyNun You mean why are o and e subject to diphthongization and raising under stress in hundreds of verbs?

Leaky Nun

@tchrist maybe...

Mitch

@tchrist raise? You wouldn't call that diphthongization?

tchrist

@Mitch There are two distinct but closely aligned effects.

Leaky Nun

16:31

@Mitch he's referring to dormir > duermo (diphthongization) and dormir > durmió (raising)

Tonepoet

@Mitch As for the quotation marks, I see no reason to use them if I'm not actually quoting somebody else. Some people even find it obnoxious to do so.

Mitch

Oh right, two changes

Tonepoet

I also hit skip over most of the proposed edits that render examples into block quotations...

tchrist

I'm pretty sure these are nearly all of them attributed to yod, which the rare odd man out following the same pattern by analogy with the many yodded ones.

The two exceptions are jugar and adquirir.

You only get raising in the third conjugation, and not in all of them.

Whereas diphthongization can happen in all three.

The <o, e> vowels are pretty unstable anyway; there are more Romance tongues with two of each of those than there are with just one like Spanish.

Mitch

I think all sound changes come from some older uncle who talks funny and the kids make fun of him in their speech and somehow it sticks.

Stupid kids

tchrist

16:36

French has some stem-changers, too.

This is a stress effect. That's what it's cerrar > cierro, cerramos because the 1p form wasn't under stress.

Compare French venir with Spanish venir.

No stem change in 1p, 2p in either.

But I bet none of this answering your mystery.

The French stem-changers are weird because their stems also change for the future and conditional.

And there we do consequently see it in all persons.

The French literary tenses -- the preterite and the imperfect subjective -- have the same raising in the stem changers as Spanish has. You just see those much less often since they're essentially formal written forms only.

So FR venir > je vins, que je vinsse.

Tonepoet

@Mitch So basically, if I plug Dennis the Menace's ears, I can finally achieve the goal of rendering the language into a fixed state in some aspect! =P

tchrist

Compare ES venir > vine, viniese

@LeakyNun So the phenomenon you're observing is one common to Western Romance in general, although the specific details vary by language.

That means we know it happened before those split.

books.google.com/…

> for Spanish, all previous accounts suffer from appeal to at least one of the following: ....

So this is a matter of some fuzziness, even dispute. It has no simple convincing explanation that applies in all cases.

@LeakyNun I'd maybe read a few pages from that reference I give above and see what you think of his analysis.

Leaky Nun

17:00

@tchrist so basically the yod caused the raising, and without the yod it would be diphthonization?

tchrist

I think so.

Leaky Nun

then why did "dormire" not become "durmir"?

and what about "dormimos"?

cf. "durmamos"

tchrist

There's no yod there.

-iendo has yod

Leaky Nun

both "dormimos" and "durmamos" have no yod

the stress position is even same

why does one have /o/ where the other has /u/?

tchrist

In Portuguese, dormir is actually pronounced durmir.

Leaky Nun

17:03

I don't see how that is relevant.

tchrist

Well, they have dormindo not durmiendo.

For lack of yod, presumably.

But that's just the spelling, not the pronunciation, because Portuguese isn't like Spanish.

The present subjunctive of durmamos vs present indicative dormimos is part of some pattern but I don't know which.

Leaky Nun

The Latin etymon was dormiāmus though

And the etymon of "duermo" is dormiō

tchrist

sentir with the same scenario is also from Latin's fourth conjugation.

sentiāmus

sintamos

erg

So there was a yod in the Latin.

Well, not a diphthong.

But the sound was nearby.

Compare sentimos.

With sentīmus.

Maybe that Latin ia yodded.

I bet Proto-Romance would have perceived sentiāmus as having just three syllables not four.

sentyamos

sintamos

Leaky Nun

17:21

so the yod caused the raising?

Then, why did dormiō develop into a diphthong?

tchrist

It's because in Spanish, all stressed /ɛ/ and /ɔ/ always became diphthongs under stress.

Back when there was still a seven-vowel system, not five-.

Leaky Nun

I see.

Martin AJ

Is this correct?

> This kind of greeting and this size of emotions belong to the girls

tchrist

This happened in all word classes, not just in verbs.

Emotions don't have size, and you can't use belong that way.

Martin AJ

well isn't my sentence understandable?

tchrist

17:28

It's not English.

Martin AJ

Shit. Do you get what I want to say? Can you please improve it for me?

tchrist

Only the weaker and less respected sex, girls, ever use that kind of overly emotional greeting.

Is that what you mean to say?

If so, I would reconsider.

Martin AJ

yes, that's exactly what I wanted to say

tchrist

Then please expected to be slapped or spat at for having said that.

Leaky Nun

how would you quantify being emotional?

tchrist

17:32

It's bigoted.

Martin AJ

:D

tchrist

Typical male anti-girl sexist claptrap.

Never allege a connection between having emotions and "lacking" a male member.

4

Martin AJ

alright :-)

tchrist

It's extremely rude.

You belittle both sexes with that sort of evil.

Martin AJ

I see, got it :-)

Leaky Nun

17:36

@MartinAJ in what context would you use that sentence?

Martin AJ

@LeakyNun You know, my friend and me sometimes use such sentences for each other as kidding.

there isn't any specific context.

tchrist

We call that bullying here.

A lot of teenagers commit suicide because of it.

Martin AJ

:-)

@tchrist By the way, based on your profile, seems you are a great programmer too. Right?

tchrist

Children have many ways to impugn each other's manhood with mock-castrations. All are evil.

"Great" is not something one should ever attribute to oneself; it instantly disqualifies the speaker.

Martin AJ

@tchrist Please stop being a mature (adult).

tchrist

17:42

One must nip these things in the bud before they develop into full-blown disorders.

Martin AJ

:-)

tchrist

When you catch a child torturing a small animal, you must intervene immediately.

Including when that small animal is another child.

Martin AJ

true.

Tonepoet

18:25

@tchrist So you're saying Sherlock Holmes isn't the world's greatest detective?

Cerberus

18:47

Judge Dee

Judge Dee (also, Judge Di) is a semi-fictional character based on the historical figure Di Renjie, county magistrate and statesman of the Tang court. The character appeared in the 18th-century Chinese detective and gong'an crime novel Di Gong An. After Robert van Gulik came across it in an antiquarian book store in Tokyo, he translated the novel into English and then used the style and characters to write his own original Judge Dee historical mystery stories. The series is set in Tang Dynasty China and deals with criminal cases solved by the upright and shrewd Judge Dee, who as county magistrate...

Mitch

22:59

> "the only copy of Di Gong An was found at a second-hand book store in Tokyo, Japan."

Cerberus

@Mitch The only copy, really?

Mitch

It's a ...wait for it...

...mystery

Wait...that doesn't make sense. In Japan?

A convenient incheckable source

Cerberus

The source of that will probably be Van Gulik.

tchrist

I didn't know the orcs had colonized the Low Countries.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…