English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:02

@RegDwightѬſ道 Thamk you for that. BTW, "you're welcome" is the past participle of "how do you do?"

Cerberus

00:47

@Robusto @JSB Hey would you consider "bowel movement" a euphemism?

If not, do you think it was a euphemism in some way when the word was first used (which was in the late 19th century)?

user19161

01:13

I have yet to protect a question, I think I will look for some to protect.

Cerberus

Wow, your appearance is fickle!

JSBᾶngs

01:28

@Cerberus i'd think of it as a medical jargon, and i don't normally classify medical jargon as euphemism

though it can be used euphemistically

Mahnax

Hello.

Cerberus

In what context, for example?

And why would you generally not call medical jargon euphemism?

Hi!

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus because its purpose isn't to obscure, but to describe. jargon can be used euphemistically, but it isn't invented for the purpose of avoiding taboo language, which is usually what we mean when we say "euphemism"

Mahnax

Oh hi.

How are you?

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs Well...isn't certain medical jargon meant to be used between doctors and patients?

JSBᾶngs

01:32

@Cerberus i suppose that's one use case

Cerberus

You can't ask your patient about how his shit was last week.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Yos.

Cerberus

So I think in certain cases doctors invent new words that can be considered euphemisms in some ways.

Mahnax

Hey Sonic.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Talking about Doctors?

Cerberus

01:33

Do you think "bowel movement" might fit into this?

Hi!

Sonic The Hedgehog

You guys know about this "Obamacare", right?

@Mah @Cerb Hey.

Mahnax

@SonicTheHedgehog Haven't paid attention.

JSBᾶngs

the question, @Sonic, is what you know about obamacare

and why you care. you're Korean, no?

Sonic The Hedgehog

@JSB I think it is total control.

Mahnax

@JSBᾶngs He lives in the States.

Sonic The Hedgehog

01:34

@JSB I live in America, I have every much care as you do.

JSBᾶngs

@SonicTheHedgehog of what? health care?

Sonic The Hedgehog

Of course, I go back to Korea in few months.

JSBᾶngs

@SonicTheHedgehog oh, ok. sorry for the misunderstanding.

Mahnax

@SonicTheHedgehog Oh, really? Why?

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Mah Classified. Too long to explain.

Mahnax

01:35

@SonicTheHedgehog I see.

JSBᾶngs

i think it's a bad idea, because it costs a trillion zillion dollars and doesn't actually accomplish what it's supposed to do, namely to provide health care fore people who can't afford it

Sonic The Hedgehog

Besides, my mom wouldn't like it if I blabbed.

Mahnax

Tsks. Sonic, did you commit family murder?

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus this is a good point. perhaps euphemism is one of the purposes of jargon

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Mah laughs Nah,

more like problems having in US.

Mahnax

01:36

@SonicTheHedgehog Good.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Green Card, Citizenship, Visa, all that stuff.

JSBᾶngs

@Cerb OTOH, i don't know anything about the particular history of "bowel movement" and i'm too lazy to look it up, so i can't say anything about that.

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs Yeah I think so...but how do you feel about "bowel movement"? Do you ever come across BM in contexts where it may be considered a euphemism?

JSBᾶngs

@SonicTheHedgehog gah, immigration's a bitch. we had huge problems getting my wife here.

Mahnax

@SonicTheHedgehog Yeah, the usual.

Sonic The Hedgehog

01:38

@JSB ?

Elaborate.

JSBᾶngs

@Sonic my wife is Romanian. we had to get visa and green cards for her. it was a pain in the butt, but eventually it worked out. end of story.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@JSB But it was worth it, right? ;)

JSBᾶngs

@SonicTheHedgehog well, yeah

Sonic The Hedgehog

@JSB Now, that reminds me of this story I have...

Who wants to hear my story?

JSBᾶngs

i'll listen

Sonic The Hedgehog

01:40

When I was in 4th grade, I had this crush on a new Romanian girl that came to our school.

JSBᾶngs

not surprising. romanian girls are hot.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Natrually, Dare Devil as I was, I took bold measures to get to know her.

Mahnax

Uh oh.

Sonic The Hedgehog

It was quite-"literally"-like Eros shot an arrow at me, or either somebody spiked my milk with Amortentia.

Later, some people noticed this and asked her whether she liked me or not.

She was like smh. Passive rejection, more like.

When girls reject me, I tend to have this... 180* rotation on my feelings.

Suddenly her faults got 10 times bigger in my mind, especially with my thrist for revenge feeling.

Mahnax

So you killed her?

tsk

JSBᾶngs

01:46

Mahnax, Mahnax. not everything has to be murder.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Now, in 8th grade, she looked plain.

Mahnax

@JSBᾶngs Aww.

I'm just in a murdery mood.

All this darn studying.

Sonic The Hedgehog

I shudder now to think what would have happened if she did like me.

Its strange sensation, and this is not the first time my brain rehradwired to make the girls I used to have cursh on look more uglier if they showed signs of rejection.

There was another more recent story concerning Korean girl this time...

But that story is for another time.

End.

Well? Did anyone appreciated my embarrassing story I worked hard to push it back to my head?!

Mahnax

Sure.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Mah scowls

Mahnax

01:52

@SonicTheHedgehog sniggers.

Sonic The Hedgehog

I recently downloaded WaterFox and FireFox.

JSBᾶngs

i'm thinking about romanians

Sonic The Hedgehog

Chrome will always be my lover, but which two system is better?

@JSB You're excused, then.

Mahnax

I use Safari.

I've become accustomed to it and don't feel like switching to a different browser.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Mah I thought I'd never get accustomed to anything else then IE.

However, I decided to give Chrome a chance.

Mahnax

01:54

@SonicTheHedgehog I never got accustomed to IE.

It sucks so much.

Robusto

@Cerberus Yes and no. It's somewhat medical, but it's definitely a non-crude way to say that someone took a shit. "I had to visit the restroom" is more of a euphemism.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Chrome is perfect except for the fact that editing bookmarks are an ass.

@Rob What did you think of my story?

Robusto

Which story?

Sonic The Hedgehog

16 mins ago, by Sonic The Hedgehog

Who wants to hear my story?

Stop, look and listen baby, that's my philosophy

If your rubberneckin baby well that's all right with me.

Cerberus

@Robusto Yeah OK. But if I said "BM is a kind of euphemism", would you say "no"?

Robusto

01:58

@Cerberus No. I would say "BM" is something of a euphemism.

Cerberus

OK then we are agreed.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Rob tell me what you think after you finish my story, plz.

Cerberus

@Robusto And would you expect it was used as some sort of euphemism for "poop/shit/crap" when people first used it?

Robusto

I haven't the time to read anything right now.

JSBᾶngs

poop poop poop poop poop

that's what i think

Cerberus

02:00

Poopiehead.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Party Pooper.

Mahnax

Kids, kids.

JSBᾶngs

@Cerb do you need three butts to poop out the stuff you eat with your three heads? or do you just poop thrice as often?

Mahnax

Do I have to clean out your mouths with soap?

tsks

Robusto

@Cerberus Yes. "BM" is a euphemism for "bowel movement," so that delicate ears don't need to hear the ugly word "bowel."

JSBᾶngs

02:01

says you, mister murder @Mahnax

Robusto

BTW, if you have logorrhea it means you have quite a messy vowel movement.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Rob thwack

Mahnax

@JSBᾶngs At least I don't have a fecal obsession.

Sonic The Hedgehog

I am rebooting my computer. See you in... T-minus 1 minute.

Chaos-Alt-Control!!!

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs You seem to be ignorant of basic mythological anatomy! I have only one stomach, four legs!

Sonic The Hedgehog

02:03

1

3

Cerberus

@Robusto Right, yes, of course the abbreviation itself is euphemistic too, as in BO. But how about the full phrase? Not euphemistic at all? Perhaps the euphemistic aspect of the abbreviation itself emanates into the full phrase for me...

@Robusto Haha, eww.

Robusto

@Cerberus I would say it was more clinical than euphemistic.

Mahnax

►

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus so each of your heads eats only 1/3 as much?

but what about the extra metabolic requirements imposed by your three brains?

Robusto

@Cerberus Aww, come on. Give it up for that one.

Sonic The Hedgehog

02:06

Back!~

...And computer is fast again.

Woot

Cerberus

@Robusto What if your doctor asked about your bowel movement? Would you experience that as euphemistic in any way?

JSBᾶngs

@Cerb why are you so interested in this?

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs They rather seem to eat 2x normal each. It is a miracle...but wait, I am supernatural!

Robusto

@Cerberus My doctor would say "Have you moved your bowels recently?" or "Are your bowel movements regular?" He would refer to feces as "stool."

Cerberus

Yeah of course, so would you experience those phrasings as euphemistic at all?

Robusto

02:10

@JSBᾶngs Someone told him he doesn't know shit, and he's booking up on it.

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs Because some 'nut in the Cooking room (Aaronut) called me irrational and several other unpleasant things for maintaining that my calling "BM" a euphemism was reasonable.

Robusto

@Cerberus No. They are what I would expect from a doctor. If my doctor asked "Did you take a decent shit this morning?" I would find that very strange.

Cerberus

@Robusto Yes, of course; but aren't euphemisms typical for doctor-patient dialogue when it comes to describing poop and sex?

Robusto

@Cerberus "BM" is a euphemism. "Bowel movement" is not, or if so only marginally.

Cerberus

Cf. "mentally challenged" for "idiot", also coming from a medico-scientific discipline, I believe.

Robusto

02:13

@Cerberus There is a class of terms that exists between euphemism and vulgarity. "Bowel movement" is one of those, in my opinion.

Cerberus

So you would not call this euphemistic in any respect?

My position: just because the centre in the spectrum between "very polite" and "vulgar" is empty with regard to shitting and bowel movements (there is no completely neutral term), that doesn't mean that one thing can't be a euphemism.

Robusto

@Cerberus I think "mentally challenged" is a euphemism, but these days "idiot" is crude and offensive if used to describe someone who was of extremely low intelligence. The psychological classifications of idiot and imbecile are not used in a clinical sense anymore.

Cerberus

@Robusto But they used to be.

Robusto

@Cerberus Objection. Asked and answered. Will the court reporter please read back the transcript?

2 mins ago, by Robusto

@Cerberus There is a class of terms that exists between euphemism and vulgarity. "Bowel movement" is one of those, in my opinion.

@Cerberus So did a lot of other terms that we no longer use.

Cerberus

Would you consider "African-American" a euphemism?

@Robusto I was mainly arguing about the way the term was used when it was invented with this guy.

Robusto

02:17

@Cerberus I don't know what to call that. If it is, then so is any other term used to describe the race.

Cerberus

@Robusto Really? How so?

How about "black" and "negro"?

I don't think any other country uses a euphemism like that.

Robusto

Here's the distinction: If I were in the presence of my Aunt Sally's bridge club, I would not use "bowel movement" to describe going to the bathroom unless for some strange reason I specifically had to refer to the action itself. Perhaps to describe the actions or health of a child.

@Cerberus Well, I don't live in those countries. I presume you are asking me about the language I speak in my own country.

Cerberus

@Robusto Oh, yes, of course. There are layers of euphemisms.

@Robusto I just mean that it is a rather specific and recent term, so I would expect you to still experience it as a euphemism; but you seemed to be saying you didn't?

Robusto

It is not so recent that I can ever recall a time when I didn't know the term.

Can I go to bed now?

Thank you. Good night.

Cerberus

Haha.

Goodnight.

Robusto

02:25

Had to come back for a sec.

0

A: Is it correct to say "will call once I get back"?

Yes. However, in doing so, be warned that you are also a.) promising to return, soon; b.) promising to call as soon as you return. (where as soon as you return means within 1/10th of the time you have been gone, dating from this message). Promises are legally actionable in many Angloph...

Is Lawler trying to be funny? If so, he should do that in a comment.

Cerberus

Wow.

Weird.

Robusto

Anyway, I'm off.

Cerberus

Bye!

Vitaly

02:38

> On March 13, 2012 it was announced that after 244 years, the Encyclopaedia Britannica is going out of print instead focusing on its online encyclopedia.[1]

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Vit Dang.

Cerberus

02:56

@Vitaly Aww, that is sad.

Mahnax

03:23

@Vitaly That is horrible.

sips mocha

Cerberus

I think the Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal never appeard in print during the last couple of decades, even before it was finished.

Mahnax

I have never heard of such a thing.

On an unrelated, sad note, my English teacher will not let us study Latin and Greek to better understand the English language and its connections to other Latin-based languages.

sigh

I would come to that class full of excitement and joy every day if we studied Latin and Greek.

Cerberus

What! Why not? What did you propose?

She must be an uneducated silly person.

Mahnax

Well, we have a curriculum to (somewhat) adhere to.

Cerberus

Or he.

Mahnax

03:29

She.

Cerberus

What did you propose?

What did she reject exactly?

Mahnax

I proposed that we spend a few weeks learning the basics of Latin and Greek, and applying that to English words that we know, to see if meaning has been preserved, how things have changed, et al.

She said that the idea was neat, but it's not a good fit for an English 10 class.

And my classmates all think I am mad now.

"Mahnax, shut up! That's a stupid idea."

Obviously they aren't cultured enough to appreciate such languages.

Cerberus

Indeed.

She probably doesn't know any Latin or Greek: isn't that part of the reason?

Mahnax

It's possible.

She doesn't like elaborating on decisions that she makes.

Her will is very firm.

Cerberus

Ah such is the teacher's way.

I can always teach you Latin and Greek, of course.

Mahnax

03:33

That is true.

I would think that you would rather do something else, though.

Cerberus

No, I like it.

Mahnax

Hmm. I am thoroughly interested.

Cerberus

But self-study is most efficient for much of the stuff you would have to learn.

Mahnax

Ooh, my mom goes to university.

Cerberus

Oh?

Mahnax

03:35

She has access to over a hundred thousand scholarly books.

Cerberus

What for?

Mahnax

Nursing.

Cerberus

Oh, good.

Mahnax

But the books don't have to be on the subject of nursing.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Mahnax

03:35

Are there any that you recommend?

Cerberus

Eh to be honest I don't know any books that actually teach Latin written in English.

We use Dutch books.

Mahnax

Hmm.

I suppose you would, yes.

How about this: I will locate some resources, and I will consult you when I have questions.

If you are willing, of course.

Cerberus

amazon.com/Best-books-to-learn-Latin/lm/R19E0VBNN85IRJ

@Mahnax More than willing!

Mahnax

@Cerberus Okay, awesome!

I will chat with my mother and see if she can get a book or two for me.

Oh, I just realized another thing.

My old Social Studies teacher is the smartest person I have ever met, without a doubt.

Cerberus

Heh, good!

Mahnax

03:39

He has a small but varied collection of books in his classroom, and I think I saw a few on Latin or Greek.

Cerberus

Cool.

Mahnax

I suspect that he has a decent grasp of both languages.

He is a fluent French speaker as well.

Anyhow, that Amazon link...

Cerberus

But there is a difference between books that are good to learn Latin or Greek out of, and those that are meant for scholars who already know them.

Mahnax

I wonder how one goes about differentiating between the two.

Cerberus

Usually a learner's book starts with very basic grammar and vocabulary.

If you can understand chapter 1, you're good.

If it doesn't have exercises, skip it.

You may also be able to find on-line exercises.

Mahnax

03:42

I love exercises.

My French book is full of them.

Cerberus

Oh, and one more thing: the very best exercise is translating things from English to Latin. You learn the most from that.

Not all books have those.

Let's start with the basic verb endings.

Mahnax

amazon.com/Schaums-Outline-French-Vocabulary-Series/dp/…

Cerberus

Singular: o, s, t

Plural: mus, tis, nt.

Mahnax

That's the book I have.

Cerberus

Take a random verb, like laudare (re is the infinitive ending), "to praise".

You praise is laudas, he praises is laudat.

Mahnax

03:44

Hold on, let's get some pronouns in here first, please.

Oh, wait.

Are there any?

Cerberus

You don't need pronouns: Latin doesn't use them nearly as often as we do.

Mahnax

Ah, that's what I thought.

Cerberus

Personal pronouns are mainly used for emphasis; otherwise they are left out.

Mahnax

Those endings go in this order, yes?
Singular: I, you, he
Plural: you, we, they

Cerberus

Yes.

Mahnax

03:45

Okay.

scribbles notes

Cerberus

A + o contracts to o, so I praise = ?

Mahnax

Laudo?

Cerberus

Ding!

Mahnax

Yay!

Cerberus

Now "father praises"?

Mahnax

03:47

Pater laudat.

Cerberus

Ding!

Mahnax

I think father is pater.

Yay!

This is fun.

Cerberus

Now word order is less fixed in Latin (it is determined by various factors), so you could just as well say "laudat pater".

Mahnax

Should I concern myself with these factors at the moment?

Cerberus

No.

Mahnax

03:48

Okay.

I shall ignore them, then.

Cerberus

Basic morphology should come first.

There are four conjugations (kinds of verbs): those with a stem on a, e, i, and [zero].

Mahnax

[zero]?

Hm.

Cerberus

The stem of laudare is lauda-; of terrere it is terre- ("to frighten"), audire audi-; then consonant stems don't have a typical vowel because they technically end on a consonant.

@Mahnax No vowel.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Oh.

Cerberus

So what is "they frighten"?

Mahnax

03:50

Terrent.

Cerberus

Ding!

Mahnax

dances

Cerberus

Now e and i don't contract with o, so what is "I hear"?

Mahnax

Audire is to hear?

Cerberus

Yes.

Mahnax

03:51

Ah, good.

Audio.

Cerberus

Ding!

What do you think is "to see"?

Mahnax

And that is where we get the word, folks.

Oh, to see.

Video.

Or something close to that.

Videre?

Cerberus

That is a correct form; so what is the infinitive?

@Mahnax Ding!

Mahnax

@Cerberus Lucky guess.

Cerberus

No no, you guessed according to the rules.

Mahnax

03:53

I suppose I did.

Cerberus

You knew -re was the infinitive ending, and video minus -o the stem.

Mahnax

Well, I didn't know that -re was the ending.

Oh, wait.

They all are, so far.

Cerberus

Okay, now the i conjugation has one irregularity: 3rd person plural is -iunt, not *-int.

Mahnax

@Cerberus So when the stem is i, you add a u?

Cerberus

Yes.

Mahnax

03:55

Okay, fair enough.

Cerberus

So what is "they hear"?

Mahnax

Audiunt.

Cerberus

Ding!

Now the fourth and final conjugation is the consonant stems.

Mahnax

Alright.

Cerberus

Like mittere, "to send".

Stem mitt-, inf. ending -r, and the theme vowel e.

Mahnax

03:56

@Cerberus Mitt?

Why?

Cerberus

A theme vowel is a vowel that is added after consonant stems if needed for pronunciation.

@Mahnax Oops sorry! Typo.

Mahnax

Hehe.

Cerberus

The theme vowels for consonant stems are:

Inf: e

Singular: [zero], i, i

Plural: i, i, u

So "he sends" is mitt-i-t.

Mahnax

Huh.

@Cerberus Why is the ending -r?

Cerberus

Huh, what r?

Mahnax

03:59

> inf. ending -r

Cerberus

Oh shit! Another typo.

Mahnax

-re?

Cerberus

The ending is -re, yes.

My bad.

I really shouldn't type so fast.

Mahnax

That's okay. Let me read through this again, so I can get the -r out of the equation.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…