English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

02:09

@RegDwigнt: Perhaps you can advise me. People tell me the following YouTube comment is not genuine. A. How can they tell? and B. What could possibly go wrong?

I mean, from the sound of it she really digs me. And she wants a serious relationship!

Færd

07:16

I always wondered what would happen if a mink had to fight with a cat. This one lived up to my expectations.

caub

10:54

Hey, what would be the english term for fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/cagette?

Cerberus

12:12

@caub A crate?

caub

14:30

@Cerberus that's a bit bigger, I meant one used for fruits/vegs in markets for example

Cerberus

@caub I think I would call that a crate.

I can't think of anything else.

A basket is different.

google.com/…

The only alternative I can think of is a box.

But I would expect a box to have a lid, I think?

google.com/…

Mitch

15:02

@caub @Cerberus's analysis is the same as mine. What would be better for you is if you gave a picture of the thing. That would be more telling.

Cerberus

@Mitch The Wiktionary page has a picture.

Mitch

Oh

also google.fr/…

Cerberus

Yeah.

Mitch

also google.com/…

which has the slightest of different pictures

the french cagette probably doesn't have a top

Cerberus

It is true that an English crate is more likely to have a lid than a Dutch krat or a French cagette, methinks.

Mitch

15:06

but without the top, the two words point at the same thing

Cerberus

But the frequent presence of a top or lid may be what leads Caub to feel that the semantic fields are not exactly the same.

Mitch

I used to think there was a strange difference - within a language there are no exact synonyms, but between languages you could translate exactly (despite the expectation that getting just the right word across two languages is difficult because of different ranges in general)

but this crate example reminds me there are never exact translations either

tchrist

Crates don't usually have covers, do they?

Cerberus

I think the same issue presents itself between any two words, irrespective of language.

tchrist

I mean, shipping crates do, of course.

Cerberus

15:10

There you go.

Mitch

@Cerberus even though images (and google) aren't definitive, they do offer a lot of insight

tchrist

I tend to think of a crate as an open box, usually.

Mitch

@tchrist crates from crate and barrel do

Cerberus

I'm not sure whether we would call a shipping crate with a closed top a krat in Dutch.

Mitch

@Cerberus i think that's what it has to be.

tchrist

15:10

What do you call a barrel without a cover?

Cerberus

@Mitch Absolutely. I use them, too, to this end.

Mitch

@tchrist a coverless barrel obviously

Cerberus

Still a barrel.

Mitch

jinx

but sometimes minor things like that can change the name entirely

having a hard time thinking of an example immediately though

Cerberus

In Dutch, I tend to think of a crate as having openings along the sides and possibly bottom.

tchrist

15:12

I think livestock is only ever crated, never boxed.

Cerberus

But at the very least the top needs to be open.

So I think some kind of openings matter.

tchrist

@Cerberus Otherwise the critters would suffocate.

Cerberus

And, if cagette is related to cage, the same thing might apply to the French word.

@tchrist Or the fruit rot.

tchrist

Yes.

Mitch

@Cerberus is there a dutch word for a mostly similar wood contraption that also has a covering of the same style on top?

Cerberus

15:13

@Mitch As long as there are openings somewhere, krat would be OK.

tchrist

> A slatted wooden case used for transporting goods.

Cerberus

When it's fully closed, I'm not sure.

Mitch

I'm wondering now if there is a slightly different name for the vegetable... holder in english, that is not crate.

tchrist

As in a crate of bananas.

> A square rigid container divided into small units, used for transporting or storing bottles.

Mitch

a crate of barrels

tchrist

15:14

As in a milk crate.

I have lots of milk crates.

Mitch

yeah. and those aren't wood

tchrist

No possibility of covers there.

Cerberus

We don't have milk crates but beer crates.

Mitch

and are cubical

SBM

What?

Mitch

15:14

what shape is a beer crate?

Cerberus

Plastic.

SBM

Hello good evening

tchrist

And yet are not boxes.

Mitch

don't you transport them in kegs?

Cerberus

Rectangular.

SBM

15:14

2 dimensional crate

RIP

Cerberus

A keg is fust, used only by cafés and such.

I buy a bierkrat.

Mitch

'fust'?

Cerberus

The Dutch word fust = keg.

Mitch

a beer crate is for beer bottles? like 24?

Cerberus

A bierkrat.

Yes, or fewer.

Mitch

15:16

OK

tchrist

fust means mustiness in English.

Cerberus

Fusten.

Repurposed...

tchrist

> Borrowing from Old French fust (“wood”) (modern French fût), from Latin fustis (“a cudgel”).

Cerberus

Ah, interesting.

tchrist

cask

Kegs are casks.

Cerberus

15:18

Yeah.

tchrist

Why is that you have kegs of ale but casks of amontillado?

Cerberus

I...don't know.

And why isn't it called a barrel anyway?

A wooden container of beer would be a ton in Dutch.

SBM

A what?

Cerberus

No doubt related to English tonne.

SBM

oh :|

Cerberus

15:20

Which itself is no doubt from French.

tchrist

I know the word for a barrel that can have no top: a bushel.

Mitch

in NL are there getränkemarkt?

Cerberus

A drinks market?

What's that?

Mitch

@Cerberus haha, returning it from whence it came

tchrist

s/from//

Mitch

15:21

@Cerberus a store that sells just drinking liquids in bulk.

Cerberus

@Mitch Exactly!

Mitch

crates of beer, water, juice

SBM

oh

tchrist

crates of kegs of beer

Cerberus

@tchrist I would probably say to whence.

Although I suppose to can be left out.

tchrist

15:22

@Cerberus Yeah.

That was bothering me.

Mitch

@Cerberus depends on the direction

tchrist

Returning it to the place where it came from.

Seems a surfeit of prepositions.

But at least it makes sense.

Mitch

where it came from?

Cerberus

@Mitch I do hope it's not the from direction in this case.

tchrist

Send it home.

Mitch

15:24

@tchrist isn't that for dry goods?

unless they are pickles?

tchrist

This will all make sense once we convert to metric and get rid of all those confusing old words.

Cerberus

Surely you don't use bushel any more?

tchrist

@Cerberus google.com/…

Mitch

@Cerberus Don't hide there anymore

@tchrist instead of the arbitrary base ten metric system, we should promote the universal base two system: cup/pint/quart/gallon

tchrist

@Mitch Of course. It's much easier for computers that way.

Mitch

15:29

@Cerberus apples

tchrist

@Cerberus We do, actually. google.com/…

Mitch

@tchrist maybe too easy for them to take over then

tchrist

Now if only our coins were binary.

I propose the 128-penny dollar.

Cerberus

@tchrist How Mediaeval of you!

@tchrist I'm confused.

tchrist

@Cerberus How many syllables is that?

Cerberus

15:31

How can a binary number contain any other digit than 0 or 1?

@tchrist 4?

tchrist

Binary in the sense that it can be expressed as the sum of base units that each either 0 or 1.

Mitch

@Cerberus He was translating for people with too many fingers

tchrist

Your coins would be a 1-penny coin, a 2-penny coin, a 4-penny coin, an 8-penny coin, etc.

SBM

oh my

tchrist

Binary makes it easy to count on your fingers all the way up to 1024.

Mitch

15:34

@tchrist maybe every other would be better. base 4. won't have to cut off so many fingers then

Cerberus

I think you meant 1.000.000?

tchrist

People normally count on their fingers in unary; they should use binary.

Cerberus

A binary million.

tchrist

Oh my.

2**10 is 1024.

SBM

yes 2^10

tchrist

15:35

2**20 is 2**10*2 is 1024**2 is 1048576.

Mitch

@Cerberus what culture separates digits every 4 with a comma?

Cerberus

So 1.000.000 is not 128?

tchrist

@Mitch You've been catting out the LC_NUMERIC tables again, haven't you?

Cerberus

@Mitch Chinese?

I remember seeing different groupings...somewhere.

Mitch

@Cerberus that would be the more natural choice than to separate by 4's

Cerberus

15:37

I'm not sure I understand.

tchrist

@Cerberus It takes ten binary digits to express a range of 1..1,024, and it takes twenty binary digits to express a range of 1.. 1,048,576.

SBM

@Cerberus Chinese feels like one letter could be an entire sentence

Cerberus

And I have to go running.

tchrist

run run run

see spot run

Cerberus

@tchrist So...

tchrist

15:38

run spot run

SBM

@Cerberus And have fun. :)

Cerberus

@SBM Sometimes! Except that they don't have letters.

Mitch

@Cerberus You'll be using 2 legs, right? You're halfway to binary with just 1!

Cerberus

@SBM Thank you, but I hate running. I don't get the natural drug into my bloodstream, alas.

tchrist

It is easier to run on four legs than on two, saith the cheetah.

Cerberus

15:38

Endorphine or what was it.

@Mitch I'll run binarily!

tchrist

Say hi to the dauphin.

What insect runs the fastest on six legs?

What bird on two?

Besides man.

Cerberus

I don't think we have any non-binary vertebrates?

Mitch

@Cerberus 1,000,000 in binary is 1,000x1,000 (in all bases) is 8x8 = 64

tchrist

Who is not a bird.

Mitch

128 is 2^7

tchrist

15:40

Stop abusing xor!

SBM

@tchrist um

Mitch

@Cerberus It's very frustrating. You try so hard and then you end up back where you started

Cerberus

1 = 1
10 = 2
11 = 3
100 = 4
1.000 = 8
10.000 = 16
100.000 = 32
1.000.000 = 64
10.000.000 = 128

Mitch

@tchrist or what? I've already cut off my thumbs

Cerberus

I miscalculated off the tops of my heads.

Mitch

15:42

@Cerberus nice. I noticed you've save some pixels by using periods.

tchrist

You know.

There is a more excellent way.

Cerberus

@Mitch Absolutely!

Oh, I have a question.

Mitch

@tchrist head, shoulders, knees and toes? That's .... base 15?

Cerberus

My pupil has a calculator with a . button and a , button.

The . is for decimals.

Because it's a foreign machine.

tchrist

Use the three segments of each of your four fingers to represent 1 to 12, and the thumb for the pointer.

Cerberus

15:43

But what is the , for?

tchrist

The tip of your index finger is one.

Cerberus

It's not an apostrophe, because it appears low, not high in the window.

tchrist

The tip of your impudent finger is four.

Pinkie tip is ten.

Ring tip is seven.

Mitch

to count to 144?

tchrist

You could, yes.

Cerberus

15:46

What is the comma for?

tchrist

Maybe to separate function arguments in an equation? I have no idea.

Mitch

@Cerberus the whole concept of a special case graphing calculator is obsolete tech, when your phone can simulate that and insanely much more out of the box.

Cerberus

You mean in differentiation? f'(x)?

tchrist

f(x,y)

Cerberus

She has a non-graphic calculator, and it still has the button.

Is that common on a calculator?

tchrist

15:49

I've never understood TI calculators; I use HPs.

I have two, I forget which models without looking. I can't remember there being a comma key.

Cerberus

And it has a decimal comma?

tchrist

Naw.

Lemme go look.

Mitch

@Cerberus maybe it's like in real (American) life, a null thing just to make things readable and doesn't make any mathematical difference.

Cerberus

@Mitch She used it as a decimal comma in a simple calculation, and it threw a syntax error...

tchrist

I have a simple 12C and also a 32SII.

I see no comma on either.

See?

Perhaps these are too basic, though.

SBM

15:54

@tchrist hp makes calculators?

Mitch

@SBM classic ones

tchrist

@SBM They make other things?

Mitch

oscilloscopes?

tchrist

HP calculators

HP calculators are various calculators manufactured by the Hewlett-Packard company over the years. Their desktop models included the HP 9800 series, while their handheld models started with the HP-35. Their focus has been on high-end scientific, engineering and complex financial uses. == History == In the 1960s, Hewlett-Packard was becoming a diversified electronics company with product lines in electronic test equipment, scientific instrumentation, and medical electronics, and was just beginning its entry into computers. The corporation recognized two opportunities: it might be possible ...

> HP calculators are well known for their use of Reverse Polish Notation (RPN).

It's a big reason why you use them; because the equation order makes sense that way.

SBM

@tchrist oh so that weird notation

tchrist

15:59

4 3 4 + *

4 3 + 4 *

4 3 4 * +

This way you don't need to worry about precedence or parentheses.

The ENTER key is a stack push.

With parens, you need a much more complicated whoshamawhatsits.

Maybe even a whatchamawhosits.

Mitch

without RPN, in infix, you have to think too hard to do calculations needing parens on paper on a machine that doesn't allow parens

tchrist

Yes, very harder.

Mitch

you have to plan ahead too much saving intermediate ops on paper (or in the usually only single memory spot)

tchrist

Why can't you say that?

> The reverse Polish scheme was proposed . . . to reduce computer memory access and utilize the stack to evaluate expressions.

> The good, the bad, and the ugly.

Are those nouns or adjectives?

Mitch

yes

tchrist

16:05

I'm suspecting they are not nouns.

The meek are destined to inherit the earth.

Now modify meek.

Mitch

Les bleus sont rouges?

tchrist

Il n'y en a pas.

But stick with English for now.

Mitch

There are more of them than in your philosophy

@tchrist haha just messing around.

tchrist

Can we have reddish meeks?

The nearly meek are not up to par.

Mitch

you can say 'the terribly meek' which while that is an NP, the forms are adverbial and adjectival.

tchrist

16:08

I’m thinking that nearly is an adverb.

I'm also thinking that terribly is an adverb.

Mitch

I'm loving it.

SBM

oh

tchrist

So while one can use adjectives and more broadly adjective phrases nominally to replace NPs, they are still adjectives.

Mitch

this is why I find 'themself' abohorrent

1 because it pokes me in the ear.

SBM

abhorrent?

tchrist

16:10

The barber can shave you rears.

Mitch

but also because even though it may be used singularly, the associated form would be what usually goes with 'they', like 'are', it should be 'selves'

@SBM gross, yucky, dislikeable in the extreme

tchrist

You is on to something there. Did you figure it out yourselves?

SBM

@Mitch oh :|

Mitch

@tchrist My debtors have sharged me with arrears

tchrist

Just because the verb is are doesn't mean it has to be selves.

You has figured that out for yourself.

No.

You have figured that out for yourself.

versus You have figured that out for yourselves.

Mitch

16:12

@tchrist hm... still themself bugs me

tchrist

We use the the self/selves contrast to indicate whether you are/have is to be construed to be one person or many.

This is the same with they are/have.

Mitch

' they is' is acceptable?

tchrist

'you is' is acceptable?

Mitch

I are not in accordance

@tchrist Is you is or is you ain't?

tchrist

Both you and they can refer to singular or plural antecedents.

You have to figure that out for yourself, Jane.

Someone has to figure that out for themself.

Mitch

16:14

that hurts my ears

tchrist

If you say themselves, that would make someone has sound wrong.

Mitch

out of sight, out of mind

tchrist

How many selves someone has is not open to debate, is it?

Mitch

@tchrist talk to my psychiatrist

Tonepoet

Wait, so you get the yearling badge every year?!

tchrist

16:16

Mitch, it's because you're an antebellum Dixiecrat of venerable vintage that this should put you off.

I know what we were taught to write normatively.

I also know what people say.

And what they say is something that exactly parallels "you" sg/pl in "they" sg/pl.

> There are other ways of producing postfix expressions from infix notation. Most operator-precedence parsers can be modified to produce postfix expressions; in particular, once an abstract syntax tree has been constructed, the corresponding postfix expression is given by a simple post-order traversal of that tree.

Using assembly language to write a calculator that accepts arithmetic equations that allow for parentheses is a good way to get a grasp on these matters.

RPN calculators also need no equals.

Mitch

16:31

RPN calculators have no equals

@Tonepoet yeah. If you wait long enough somebody will upvote you answers and wel along the way to the heatdeath of the universe, we'll all have mod powers.

Tonepoet

16:45

@tchrist As far as I can tell, they isn't singular. It's trending that way, if you count that for anything but it's still a majority disapproval among the A.H.D.'s. last usage panel poll, which was taken just last year, and what I can find of instances that were purportedly singular by established authors of the past seem to actually have multiple logical referents.

It's not very impressive to say "There's not a man I meet but doth salute me as if I were their well-acquainted friend" if you only ever really met one man.

tchrist

@Tonepoet You're not going to win this.

Do you believe that you is ever singular?

You is not the first person to deny this, and doubtless you is not going to be the last ones to do so either.

If thou wouldst us a singular pronoun use, then so be it.

But little shall it avail thee in common intercourse.

Tonepoet

@tchrist You has quite a different history from they, and happens to be a relic of a pronoun system that hasn't been in use for centuries...

tchrist

Every word its own history enjoys.

English does not fit well into a Latin box.

I refuse to argue about singular they. It quite simply exists and has done so since before the pronouns even settled down.

It takes plural concord in verbs just as you does, but can equally well refer to singular antecedents.

We have miles of questions written about this.

The world has entire libraries dedicated to it.

I'm not going to argue about it here. Again. For the billion billionth time.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…