English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Dual (abbreviated DU) is a grammatical number that some languages use in addition to singular and plural. When a noun or pronoun appears in dual form, it is interpreted as referring to precisely two of the entities (objects or persons) identified by the noun or pronoun. Verbs can also have dual agreement forms in these languages. The dual number existed in Proto-Indo-European. It persisted in many of the ancient Indo-European languages that descended from it such as Ancient Greek, and Sanskrit, which still uses dual forms across nouns, verbs, and adjectives, and Gothic, which used dual forms in...

click through for the section on hebrew

dual is rare but marked by -im or -ayim

@Cerberus we? as in should it by 'cliffshanger'?

Cerberus

@Mitch Interesting.

So there was something about dual and -im, but the article doesn't explicitly mention what the exact suffix was/is.

Something like -ayim, apparently.

Mitch

yeah

but says it is a pseudo-dual

Cerberus

@Mitch I actually meant, as a literary (or commercial...) device.

Mitch

which doesn't make sense

Cerberus

@Mitch I think they mean it's pseudo-dual in modern Hebrew, but it once was a true dual.

That section is not written super clearly.

Mitch

12:12 AM

@Cerberus wikipedia ... could be better

Cerberus

Really?

Mitch

What do you think of cliffhangers?

Cerberus

I thought it had been perfected, finished.

@Mitch I don't have a definite judgement of them ready yet, but I'm tending towards super annoying and commercially unnecessary.

Mitch

it's...

...manipulative

sometimes I enjoy it. sometimes.

Cerberus

I see.

I find it frustrating.

It reduces my pleasure in reading a book.

Especially when the next chapter switches to a different person or time.

Mitch

12:17 AM

but just continue to the next chapter where it should be pretty soon resolved

oh

as plot tropes go, it seems pretty juvenile

Cerberus

@Mitch Is that an order?

Or is it elliptic?

@Mitch I think I agree.

Mitch

"after finally unlocking the treasure chest opening it and finding a small envelope, opening the envelope it said the killer is...". "before the treasure hunt began..."

Cerberus

Haha, that's the most lowly kind.

But the Game of Thrones is also quite annoying: not sub-plot line is ever solved in due time.

Mitch

@Cerberus a suggestion that was written but not sent before you qualified with 'especially when....'

also, supposedly kids these days don't end the last sentence with periods

Cerberus

OK.

Mitch

12:24 AM

I'm trying it out

@Cerberus I have been very fortunate in not folliowing GoT at all

Cerberus

Lucky you!

It's the fantastic version of a soap opera.

Mitch

I remember watching soap operas in my youth. in the summer when school was out, what else is there to do during the day?

reading? Pfft

Cerberus

Poor you.

Mitch

I know!

What inspired you to bring up the 'cliffhangers' thing?

Cerberus

Well.

I was watching this television series that didn't really have cliffhangers.

And I was thinking about how I did not miss them.

I was also pondering the merits or demerits of flashbacks while reading a book.

Which have a more elevated literary tradition behind them.

And yet...

Mitch

12:37 AM

bouncing around in time is interesting but gimmicky

but interrupting an arc of tension, unresolved for a time ...

it works sometimes. didn't Dickens use it on purpose because his novels were often serialized, encouraging people to continue buying the next edition?

Cerberus

12:55 AM

@Mitch Yeah, that's what sometimes makes it annoying.

It's like...a cliffhanger.

@Mitch Gimmicky, indeed. Where it truly serves a purpose, I'll buy it.

But too often it just seems unnecessary.

An attempt by the writer to appear "deep".

I think a flashback from the main story is OK.

But a flashback to the main storyline is annoying.

Unless it serves some legitimate purpose.

Færd

No legislation in literature.

(Of course, there is, but ...)

Cerberus

Indeed not!

MetaEd

1:14 AM

@Mitch Hee hee! And a literacy test.

Averruncus

1:28 AM

@Cerberus Hello. Is this sentence correct: "You can give tuition to people, you can teach them subjects you are good at "? The highlighted part I mean.

I'm referring to our discussion here from earlier.

Just thought I'd confirm it if my usage was correct.

Because I see many results when I search something like "give them tuition".

Cerberus

I think it's OK.

Although I think something like provide tuition is more common.

Averruncus

okay. Thank you.

Robusto

1:58 AM

@Cerberus You can provide tuition, but you can't provide intuition.

aitía

What can I do if someone misspells a word in their response on my question?

Mitch

You can tune a guitar but you can't salmon a guitar

@aitía somebody might edit it to correct the misspelling, if it is worth the trouble.

aitía

Is someone able to do this for me right now,,

I would be grateful

never mind I got it thank!

Mitch

2:18 AM

@aitía Your edit is in the queue. I just voted to approve. It'll take only one more to see the edit officially made.

Mitch

2:32 AM

@MetaEd how does 'bed' fit in?

Tonepoet

3:03 AM

And oh my gosh, I bought so many books today!

There were 52 in that lot of Britannica Great Books of the Western World lot alone. Sadly a couple of volumes are missing, but goodness gracious me, I don't think you can buy so many good books for $24 otherwise...

Tonepoet

3:19 AM

@aitía Is that Yuyuko Saigyouji in your profile image, or are the similarities merely incidental?

Tonepoet

4:14 AM

I also got many other books, including The Chicago Guide to Grammar, Usage and Punctuation by Bryan Garner today. It's interesting, but I have noticed that Garner seems to be mistaken on a point regarding Webster. He did count Interjections as a part of speech, but he preferred the name exclamation for them. Then again, he's checking an 1842 revision of an Improved Grammar, whereas I have only seen a 1833 printing of it online...

MetaEd

7:56 AM

@Mitch in bed with Alma. The marriage bed, I suppose.

SBM

good afternoon

MetaEd

Good aftermidnight.

SBM

@MetaEd it's that late there?

MetaEd

8:18 AM

@SBM Fraid so.

SBM

oh

MetaEd

It's twenty past three in the morning.

SBM

@MetaEd It's ten minutes to two in the afternoon here.

Færd

12:16 PM

@Mitch Got it.

But maybe the possessive form (3) is preferred if it's one hour?

> It's an hour walk / a one-hour walk / an hour's walk from here.

The non-possessive forms don't sound right.

Especially the first one.

Contrasted to a liter pitcher, which works, I guess.

.

Is high in high achiever an adjective? I don't think it is. And I don't understand why it's never hyphenated.

Mitch

12:38 PM

@Færd Compare same with same:

1. The train came after a one-hour delay.
2. **The train came after a one hours' delay.
3. ?The train came after one hours' delay.

(i.e. #1 is the way to say it, #2 is wrong, #3 sounds weird but might be OK but why would you bother saying that when you can just say #1)

1. It's a one hour walk from here
2. It's an hour's walk from here
4. ? It's an hour walk from here

#1 and #2 are both OK, #4 is a new pattern #3 would be "It's one hour's walk from here " and is OK

@Færd what else would it be? It's modifying a noun. hyphens are for pairs that are on their way to be a set phrase, and 'high achiever' is not. 'Overachiever' has already gone past the hyphen to a single word.

Færd

@Mitch See, I didn't think you'd prefer a one-hour delay to an hour's delay. That was kinda the point of my last message.

@Mitch High is semantically an object of achieve, isn't it?

And hyphens are not exclusively for those pairs. I think it's better to hyphenate object-verber combinations.

Cf animal lover vs animal-lover.

@Mitch I think we can safely stop talking about this one. Never mind the message above. Thanks.

MetaEd

1:14 PM

@Mitch How do they all fit in the bed.

SBM

good evening people

MetaEd

@SBM Easy for you to say.

SBM

@MetaEd True.

SmokeDetector

1:36 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer: "Hardly" vs. "barely" by wilbur on english.SE

Mitch

2:02 PM

@Færd no, it's not. it's the extent of achievement. What kind of achiever? a high achiever. Not an '*achiever of high'. That's just wrong. This one is easy. Check a dictionary for 'high'. Unless you're thinking of 'high' as the feeling you get from certain psychotropic medications, 'high' usually means 'taller than most'.

@MetaEd they take turns? Sardine style (head to tail)? Use a blender and smooth out with a spatula?

Oh I know, the way Kellogg did it. Cereal monogamy

!!rimshot

terdon

@Mitch There was a Kellog's museum, right? Was that their slogan?

Come see real monogamy!

Færd

2:27 PM

@Mitch What do you think of low achievers then? Achievers that are low? Or those who achieve low(ly) things?

I know high is not a noun in that sense. I think of high achievers as those who achieve high things.

I don't know. You may well be right.

SBM

3:00 PM

um?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Færd low achievers are people who don't achieve much.

Færd

3:17 PM

Obviously.

Mitch

3:32 PM

@Færd high and low are adjectives. pretty basic POS. Because the wind is high, it blows my mind. Because the sky is blue, it makes me cry.

SBM

@Mitch right

Mitch

Anyway for achievers high and low are not the usual choices. What you should be worrying about is why is it over and underachievers, which is what Bart Simpson is when he's having a cow.

SBM

@Mitch "having a cow"?

Mitch

@Færd I may be crazy

But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for

You may be wrong for all I know, but you may be right

Averruncus

Can a "question" be a "statement"? For example, can I say "When you make statements like 'Why are you here?' I find it very annoying"?

To me it sounds fine, but not sure.

Mitch

3:39 PM

Or 'Who do you think you are?'.

Averruncus

Usually a statement doesn't end with a question mark but can we make an exception in places like above?

Mitch

There's no answer to that.

Actually as similarly unanswerable as 'Do you know who I am?'

@Averruncus wait... what are you really asking?

You're not talking about 'uptalk', are you?

SBM

uptalk?

Mitch

Uptalk.

Averruncus

@Mitch I'm asking if we can call something with a question mark a "statement" like what I wrote in my sentence above.

Mitch

3:41 PM

Ending ones statements with rising inflection so it sounds like you're making a question out of a statement. shows possible doubt in the statement

Averruncus

"When you make statements like 'Why are you here?' I find it very annoying"?

Mitch

annoys the crap out of older people who demand confidence?

Averruncus

See what I mean?

Mitch

@Averruncus No not at all, because you several layers of quoting and question marks, so I'm not sure which one you're asking about.

Averruncus

@Mitch No uptalk, no.

@Mitch Ahh let me make it clear. Wait...

Mitch

3:43 PM

'Why are you here?' is not a statement.

I've been stranded in the combat zone

Averruncus

Where? In Iraq?

I know you are joking. heh.

Mitch

I walked through Bedford Stuy alone

Averruncus

oh I see

@Mitch Btw should it be "Let me make it clearer" above or "Let me make it clear" like I wrote?

SBM

@Averruncus I just checked the news and there was yet another stupid attack by pseudo-humans

Averruncus

On reading it again it sounds unnatural. Not sure.

SBM

3:46 PM

so bad

Averruncus

@SBM Who are these "pseudo-humans"? I don't understand.

SBM

terrorists

Averruncus

Well it is a common sight nowadays.

SBM

google.co.in/…

Averruncus

By the by, what's the point of reading or watching news if it only gets you down and depresses you? I know it is good for information but I have been keeping myself away from it, on purpose.

SBM

3:49 PM

oh

right

Averruncus

It freaking sucks.

SBM

yes

sucks more than those vacuum cleaners at railway stations

Averruncus

hah

MetaEd

@Mitch Sure. That's what I do.

Mitch

@Averruncus I think the song is referring to a section of downtown Boston in the seventies and eighties known as the Combat Zone

@Averruncus Both work equally well with the slightest of meaning difference.

Averruncus

3:53 PM

@Mitch I see, thank you, but in our context above "clearer" would be better right?

MetaEd

@Mitch @terdon Actually sardine style is more like it. Sear eel monogamy.

terdon

Awwwww! :P

Mitch

@SBM a not uncommon retort of a young person to someone admonishing them for something telling them not to make a big deal out of it. eg "Stop playing with matches, you'll burn the house down" "Hey man, don't have a cow. I have a glass of water to put it out"

Averruncus

@Mitch I mean can a question be a "statement"? Like ever? Because "statement" sounds good when we are quoting someone. I hope you are getting my drift.

Mitch

Presumably because the other person's making a big deal is as noisy and disturbed as if they were giving birth to a cow. It is presumably not referring to the lawful possession of a cow for milk, meat, or companionship.

Averruncus

3:57 PM

@Mitch is being inundated with pings. I hope you are okay with that. =)

Mitch

@Averruncus equally grammatical. 'clearer' makes the presumption that you were clear to begin with but I was too obtuse to get it. 'clear' sounds like a drill sergeant who is not getting exactly what they want. "Let me make this clear, there will be no dessert for anyone tonight because Billy didn't tie his shoe correctly" "Whoa dude, don't have a cow"

SBM

@Mitch oh just sounded a bit weird

Mitch

@MetaEd mmm fried kippers for breakfast

@Averruncus Your drift is heading out towards sea

@Averruncus I'm not sure what you mean by 'stattement' then

@Averruncus fortunately my sound is off.

Averruncus

@Mitch Okay here is an example. Let's say I'm talking to you and I say "Mitch your statement your drift is heading out towards sea went way over my heard". That is, the normal use of "statement" like when quoting someone. But my question was if you said something that was a question can I call it like a statement too?

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, it is a sincere query.

@Mitch So if "Let me make it clearer" is condescending then what would work? "Let me explain it to you" maybe? But that's quite formal.

Mitch

4:13 PM

@SBM It is intended to sound ... special.

Averruncus

@Tonepoet So where do you put that many books at home? Do you have like a library? By the way, nice!

Mitch

@Averruncus I'm exaggerating. but only a little

Averruncus

Okay

Mitch

I walked through Bedford Stuy alone

@Averruncus why not say '... your question...'?

your statement is usually a declaration.

Tonepoet

@Averruncus I really shouldn't have so many books in such a small place. Right now they're on a bookshelf in the garage.

Mitch

4:15 PM

and those questions were all very interrogatory rather than rhetorical or facts couched in terms of a question.

I even rode my motorcycle in the rain

Færd

@Mitch You're high.

(Thanks. I'm changing my mind.)

Mitch

I'm very upset that youtube doesn't have an easy to find clip of Bart Simpson saying the classic 'Don't have a cow, man'

Averruncus

@Mitch What kind of motorcycle do you ride? I'm guessing Harley-Davidson?

@Tonepoet okay cool.

Tonepoet

@Mitch Does it have to be a video clip or will audio only do?

Mitch

Averruncus

4:19 PM

When it rains I just like to talk a walk. It is soothing.

I even run sometimes in rain. It is quite fun.

But I have to be careful so I don't slip etc.

Tonepoet

@Mitch It's missing "Ay caramba!"

Averruncus

Of course.

Mitch

@Averruncus “In 1977,” described Cotter, “Joel, then 27, bought a Yamaha 400 Special"

@Færd I may be repeating lyrics from the Billy Joel song "You may be right"

SBM

oh

Mitch

4:35 PM

There's always a key

that unlocks the metaphor

and opens the box

inside of which

you can find

another box

Averruncus

I'm not saying you sound tipsy, but do you ever drink in the morning?

Okay don't answer that.

MetaEd

4:54 PM

@Mitch What's a meta for anyway?

Mitch

@MetaEd You can salmon but you can't tuna fish

MetaEd

@Mitch Did you just salmon me?

Because salmon salmoned me.

Mitch

@MetaEd Oh, solder off

You know where I went to college? Falcon U

SBM

@MetaEd salmon is a verb?

Mitch

@Averruncus It's beer o'clock somewhere

wait... is that how they say that?

Yes, yes they do.

Kit Z. Fox

5:10 PM

hi

SBM

hello @KitZ.Fox

good night people

Kit Z. Fox

good night

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:37 PM

@KitZ.Fox it's Tuesday

Kit Z. Fox

shit

it's Tuesday when the writing class I was going to take starts.

and I didn't sign up for it.

so I'm not taking it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

oops

Kit Z. Fox

it's ok.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

by an amazing coincidence, it's also time for the weekly writing exercise... maybe that can salve your wounds?

Kit Z. Fox

I've been really sick and stressed out and not writing, so it is for the best that I don't add to that atm.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 uh...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:39 PM

oh

maybe not then

Kit Z. Fox

well, I am running queries, so it's not like I have other stuff to do right now.

"code compiling"

Mitch

5:53 PM

there's an xkcd for that

Also an I Love Lucy episode

Kit Z. Fox

yes

yes there is

Mitch

Like remember when the two couples had to go to a fancy dress party and the women were all worried about the latest fashion and there's always been a joke forever about 'you'd look good wearing a burlap bag' and... something about them wearing burlap bags.

Kit Z. Fox

yeah

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'd like to shove this codebase into a burlap bag and then toss it into a river

Kit Z. Fox

Look, just come over to The Overlook so I don't have to keep changing windows.

Mitch

6:01 PM

"sometimes I wish I never left Cuba" laugh track follows

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 then all the fish would die and float belly up

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch I'm pretty sure this code is only toxic to humans

Kit Z. Fox

strumming my life with his methods
singing my life with his types
killing me softly with his code
killing me softly
with his code

caub

6:23 PM

what the fudgee

I need to name a field in DB, for the count of times a file is added in a design, I hesitate between 'usages', 'used'

it could be 'count' too,

Kit Z. Fox

count_of_adds

caub

yes possible

Kit Z. Fox

just 'count' isn't descriptive enough and it's also a reserved word, I think.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

don't use "count", it's a reserved word in SQL

caub

yea indeed, I'm using postgres

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:26 PM

"reference_count" or "usage_count" would be my choice

caub

ok thanks both

Kit Z. Fox

I like usage_count

Robusto

8:28 PM

I'm having a brain cramp trying to think of an art term. It's a term for a work with multiple media in one work, like it could have paint and paper clips and wood, etc., but it's not collage.

MetaEd

8:45 PM

@SBM Salmontimes.

Mitch

9:36 PM

@Robusto multimedia

watercolor and clay and sprinkles and woodblock

wait, that's wrong. or not right

mixed media

which is a subset of the broader category of multimedia (which is its own hyponym for just video and sound and animation)

collage is a kind of mixed media

décollage is the opposite of collage, a taking away of pieces

décolletage is obviously therefore trimming of excess material from a piece created by a lathe, casting, or stamping

Robusto

11:09 PM

@Mitch Nah, I already know about mixed media. It's another term that I can't remember, and it's frustrating because I can almost see it in my mind.

Cerberus

11:30 PM

I thought you said mixed genitalia.

Robusto

That would hurt, I think.

Cerberus

I read a story about such a person in Roman Halicarnassus.

Fiction.

Robusto

It's not impasto, either, but that's closer to the kind of term it is. I believe the origin is either Italian or French. I'm pounding my head trying to remember this.

Cerberus

Oh, a term.

Nothing comes to mind at the moment.

Sounds like a kind of artsy pastiche.

Robusto

@Cerberus I know. That's exactly my problem.

Cerberus

11:33 PM

To the mind of a drunkard little comes.

Or much.

I don't know.

Robusto

@Cerberus Well, except pastiche has nothing to do with technique, unless it's imitating another style's technique.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Robusto

@Cerberus What have you been drinking?

Cerberus

Beer.

Robusto

What kind of beer?

Cerberus

11:34 PM

Just regular beer, this time.

Heineken, I don't even remember.

Robusto

Ah.

I don't drink much anymore. Too busy being healthy.

Cerberus

What a chore.

But good for you.

Robusto

Haha, but I feel great.

Cerberus

Good, good.

We spent most of the night in a straight bar where we had fun.

Robusto

I've ridden my bike around 5,000 km already this year.

Cerberus

11:36 PM

Then ended up in a pathetic gay bar and went home.

Hmm just a few thousand km more.

Robusto

What was pathetic about the gay bar?

Cerberus

There was hardly anyone there, and we would have felt guilty to pack up and move on to the bar nextdoor.

Robusto

Wow, that is pathetic. Literally.

Cerberus

Thank you.

The barman blamed it on the rain.

Robusto

@Cerberus For what, a prize?

Cerberus

11:38 PM

But the gay bar next to this one was full of people, as we saw when we went home.

Robusto

@Cerberus Was it raining indoors?

Cerberus

@Robusto In order to reach Holland.

@Robusto Not that I noticed.

Robusto

I guess it wasn't raining men then, either.

Cerberus

But people tend to stay home on Tuesdays when it's raining dogs and more dogs.

Robusto

The Weather Girls - It's Raining Men

►

Cerberus

11:39 PM

Alas.

I actually know a cover of that song, I think.

Robusto

Ha, I shouldn't wonder.

@Cerberus There's your problem right there. You should add cats into the mix.

Cerberus

But cats don't suit my alter ego.

In reality, I'm a cat man.

But was listening to Postmodern Jukebox, do you know them?

Or it?

Robusto

Can't say I do.

Going to see Elvis Costello live tonight, btw.

Cerberus

Have fun!

What time is it?

Robusto

Gotta leave in about half an hour.

Creep - Vintage Postmodern Jukebox Radiohead Cover ft. Haley Reinhart

►

Covering Radiohead, eh? Interesting.

Cerberus

11:48 PM

They cover everyone.

Jolene - Postmodern Jukebox ft. Maris (from #PMJsearch)

►

If you like Jolene.

They cover everyone in retro styles.

Robusto

I see they also cover Soundgarden, etc.

Cerberus

And Britney Spears...but they actually turn every cheap pop song into something nice.

Robusto

Nice.

Cerberus

They usually do styles from the 20s, 30s, 50s, 70s, that sort of thing.

I often don't even know the original, which turns out to be horrible.

Robusto

Mm-hmm.

Cerberus

11:50 PM

When you're bored.

Robusto

Speaking of Soundgarden, Chris Cornell just died a couple weeks ago.

My condolences.

Apparent suicide.

Unfortunate.

Here's a full-blown retro style for ya:

Anita O'Day - Honeysuckle Rose

►

Cerberus

11:54 PM

That's nice.

Robusto

Indeed.

YouTube just kicked that into my "Suggested for you" queue one day. Sometimes they get it right.

Cerberus

Hmm not the usual artificial stupidity.

Robusto

Nope, she's totally legit.

Or was.

That was from '63, 54 years ago.

Cerberus

How do you feel about Annette Hanshaw, by the way?

@RegDwigнt made me like her.

Annette Hanshaw - Mean to Me-1929

►

Robusto

I don't know her, but I'll take a listen when I have more time.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…