English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Færd

00:32

@Mitch Simpletons complicating the dynamics of society. Yes.

But familial feelings of a single person are on a more basic level. And there were predictable things on larger scales too, like what he would do about environmental issues.

And damn, what he did!

Whatever.

English Student

01:21

@RaceYouAnytime testing.. testing... how to ping somebody to the ELU chat room -- I suppose you were not recently here?

RaceYouAnytime

01:44

@EnglishStudent bravo!! You definitively tested this, and it worked, I received a notification. Thanks.

@EnglishStudent I was not recently here, in fact, I've only posted once or twice and that was maybe weeks ago.

Do I need to tag your name every time I post a comment, or is that redundant in chat? Hehe.

English Student

02:08

@RaceYouAnytime yes indeed you need to tag the username to ping me. As you can see, I was offline for 35 minutes. That is the deficiency of chat room as the alternative to discussion in 'comments section' in your meta question!

@RaceYouAnytime and, as you would understand by reading this chat page, the main advantage of chat is the more relaxed definition of what is 'on TOPIC.'

@RaceYouAnytime by the way, you might get confused by seeing my namesake englishstudent (all lowercase and no space) who was here recently and is frequently found in chat.

RaceYouAnytime

@englis

@EnglishStudent what do you mean by "namesake?" Do you have an alternate username that applies only in chat?

Or is it because that works to ping you either way? I still see the full name spelled out under your kaleidoscope-signature

English Student

@RaceYouAnytime namesake is always another person with the same name. You can click the user profile for details. This user is active on Stack exchange sites and ELU chat but I am yet to encounter at ELU main site.

RaceYouAnytime

Are you joking or messing with me? I don't understand... it sounds like you're saying you're NOT the same person...??

English Student

@RaceYouAnytime this is indeed an entirely different user I was very surprised to find hete on chat, and that is why you need to avoid confusion! cs.stackexchange.com/users/65955/englishstudent

RaceYouAnytime

02:24

@EnglishStudent ohhhhh! You're saying there's another user here with the same username! Someone with the username "englishstudent" who is not you ? ---- Correct?

I thought you were pulling one over on me by saying that you weren't the same person I had encountered on EL&U meta (and elsewhere on ELU :) ) lol!

English Student

@RaceYouAnytime exactly -- it was a surprise but of course 'English student' is a generic term -- just so you wouldn't mix up the 2 different users!

RaceYouAnytime

thanks, haha I'm laughing at myself now...

English Student

@RaceYouAnytime in practical terms, if you were to find that user here and address something regarding ELU you might possibly get a bemused reply: 'who, me?

@RaceYouAnytime on a much more serious note, you need to see this if you haven"t already english.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/10278/…

RaceYouAnytime

@EnglishStudent that makes sense. I've often wondered about the generic nature of usernames on SE. For instance, the frequency of first names. Contrary to... well, to what I ASSUME is a common interpretation, my username is not because I like racing. It's based on a favorite line from a song.

@EnglishStudent which part should I be looking for? Is there evidence that she's back to stay? Because I would be happy about that.

@EnglishStudent or perhaps you are referring to the level of agreement on my point, about which I am also pleased.

English Student

@RaceYouAnytime usernames are generic to provide the 'cloak of anonymity' behind which (paraphrase from Michael Cox "the meaning of night") they prowled the London shadows, contemplating their grievances and planning bitter deeds...

tchrist

02:33

Macron à Trump : "Rien N'est Négociable Dans Les Accords de Paris"

►

> Ce soir, les États-Unis ont tourné le dos au monde, mais la France ne tournera pas le dos aux Américains.

That part was not in the English version.

English Student

Whereas it is not clear whether she has indeed returned, I was pleased to see her pen name under answers attributed to community wiki -- more importantly she has raised pertinent points that need discussion at meta.

tchrist

A beacon in the darkness.

RaceYouAnytime

@EnglishStudent yes, I'm glad she's still "around." I saw your comment of support as well. She was or is an inspiration / mentor of sorts to me as well.

tchrist

Let those who can listen, listen.

English Student

@RaceYouAnytime the pertinent points being (1) the aura of joyless Ness she attributes to many members and extends to include the site and (2) community responses to questions and answers that have discouraged even one of the most senior, caring and enthusiastic members! It is no good wishing her a good sabbatical and ignoring such necessary introspection.

RaceYouAnytime

02:41

@EnglishStudent I agree with you, and I believe a good portion of the regular users took some time to self-examine after hearing about that. But unfortunately, I believe the users she referred to in her post are not the same regular users we frequently see.

As Josh put it: "They rarely post questions or answers, their main activities are DV, CV and posting odious, unhelpful and pretestous comments just with the aim of irritating more committed users. I must admit they are quite smart in disguising their true intentions as serious, helpful ones. Giving in to haters just means falling into their trap."

English Student

@RaceYouAnytime that is indeed a pertinent reply from the seniormost member. However the instances cited are only the tip of the iceberg. Reading her whole post you would get a sense of a few things wrong here. I HAVE independently sensed and recorded the dour inflexibility of certain members and a grim approach to matters of grammar and usage. Is ELU a battle ground for the grammar wars (Pl. Google "grammar wars" for details) or are we taking ourselves too seriously here!

RaceYouAnytime

@EnglishStudent I'm with you on having sensed that from certain members. I almost left EL&U myself (after being here only a couple weeks) after getting a hard time from a certain user, who obviously I won't mention.

@EnglishStudent the important thing to me, as a new user, is to derive as much support as I can from the encouraging users and learn from all criticism, whether said criticism is widely agreed upon or not. I try to learn from every interaction.

@EnglishStudent we are in a somewhat similar boat in terms of timeline and activity (I apparently started a week or so before you joined EL&U, and we've both been quite active), and apparently also vision and ideology in our approach to the site.

English Student

03:00

@RaceYouAnytime yes indeed! I like to think I am very fair in also acknowledging the good that I encounter, and I am willing to correct myself when I understand I am in error.

Love of English drives us all, but we cannot afford to take anything so seriously that a prolific and cheerful member felt the stress! IAll that might be leveled as criticism (and not by you or me but by a 50000 reputation member who left the site in protest) would be the grimness about the language that pervades the comments and attitudes of many (not the majority by any means, but not a very few) members.

In short ELU is a great site where fairness and transparency predominate. All that might be leveled as criticism (and not by you or me but by a 50000 reputation member who left the site in protest) would be the grimness about the language that pervades the comments and attitudes of many (not the majority by any means, but not a very few) members.

RaceYouAnytime

@EnglishStudent Well put. I will only casually leave this here: english.stackexchange.com/questions/336625/…

English Student

03:21

@RaceYouAnytime very appropriate! I am very confident in my English the same way I am with my driving, but I am not driving a daily rally race

and nor am I a 'defender of the faith' for a great language that needs no defending .

The crux of her complaint as I understood it was, 'English is supposed to be wonderful, not a daily grind -- what we do here ought to be enlightening and enjoyable, not crucial / critical / desperate as some would see it!

Many thanks to you for seeing this the same way. I really appreciate the interaction with kind, generous and constructive members like yourself, Roger Sinasohn and Tom22, to name just 3 persons to represent so many. It is 8:45am here in India s o I shall bid you good night!

English Student

03:44

@RaceYouAnytime it seems every fragment of text posted must be tagged with the username to generate a ping? There is much to learn about chat because I have not been active here. It's 9am in India so I shall sign off now - thank you and good night!

RaceYouAnytime

@EnglishStudent all very well put. Have a good night and I'll see you around!

SBM

Good morning

RaceYouAnytime

04:26

@NVZ can you hear me?

englishstudent

05:03

@EnglishStudent Hi. I got 15 pings none of which were mine. So to avoid confusion in chats what do you think we should do? Is it okay for you to change your username? I mean I could do it but I have been here for months now (I came before you) and there was no other user with the similar name at the time. Let me know what you think. And you are right, I'm not on the main site, just in ELU chat mostly.

@terdon @tchrist @KitZ.Fox I got 15 wrong pings because of the other user with the similar name. Any solutions?

SBM

It's illusory

For a moment I thought both were the same person

englishstudent

No we aren't.

SBM

This is so confusing

you get pinged on her/his pings @englishstudent

englishstudent

Yes I do.

I got 15 pings. heh.

It's fine. I guess the only solution is to change the name.

SBM

I guess there's another way to ping maybe that doesn't work for users with same name \@englishstudent

englishstudent

05:15

Yeah? I'm all ears.

SBM

:262898

did that ping?

englishstudent

Oh but that is a hassle I guess.

no it didn't.

SBM

Wait I remember there was some other way

no there isn't :(

@englishstud

did that ping you?

englishstudent

Yeah.

SBM

@English did that ping you?

englishstudent

05:18

Yeah.

Even "@eng" will ping me.

SBM

yes? oh no. Why is it this way?

englishstudent

I don't know.

SBM

@englishstudent I guess you both need to sign an user name change agreement.

englishstudent

hah

SBM

I guess there maybe many users with my username ouch

englishstudent

05:22

I just thought this was a cool name, so I used it when I came here.

Yeah there could be many with similar username

But these chats don't support it.

I'll change mine. I'm just thinking what to use now.

SBM

let me search how many @englishstudent are there I've seen more I guess

englishstudent

No, there was only one (me) in chats. There is one (the other) on the main site.

SBM

2

Q: Name confliction in chat rooms

I enters in a chat room every day . But last Saturday I did not come here . But a user having the same name as mine user name was in the room . some people was chatting with that user . But as I was not in the room , I should not get the notifications for chat messages for that room. Today I rec...

:37847825

7

Q: How to handle people impersonating other people by choosing the same display name

What is done to prevent people from changing their display name to another persons', for example Jon Skeet, and then also changing their gravatar to match too? In comments it seems there is no visible differentiator, and the differentiator in questions and answers is just reputation and badges. ...

discussion display-names

englishstudent

No one is impersonating anyone here by the way, we both just happened to use the same name.

SBM

I see.

englishstudent

05:30

There is no solution there. Even a mod can't solve it, other than to tell one of the users to change their name.

SBM

:( are you also from India @englishstudent?

SBM

06:09

24

Q: How do I ping the right bob?

We have two bobs at the moment. Bob (with the fox avatar) is a long time user, and bob, with the green avatar. I'd like to ping Bob, without bothering bob with my pings. I see two ways to do this - It's trivial for me to get the username - so could we have a way to ping a user by user id numbe...

feature-request support chat ping

@englishstudent

check that

Averruncus

06:43

All right, I guess it was time to change the username.

@Mitch @Tonepoet @terdon so I changed my name to "Averruncus" from "englishstudent". Thought I'd let you guys know since I chat here a lot. xD

Tonepoet

@Averruncus So when's the graduation ceremony?

Averruncus

Erm, what? :)

RaceYouAnytime

So I just went through a reading frenzy wondering why someone named Averruncus was being pinged as english student and now I realize why my professors always told me to read something to the end.

Averruncus

Funny.

RaceYouAnytime

I was being sincere, but I can understand the frustration of having your username appropriated.

Averruncus

06:51

Yeah.

True.

RaceYouAnytime

07:05

So what happens if I change my username to tchrist? Would I just get dupe notifications all the time?

If so, this is a fundamental flaw in how the whole system works

There has to be some ultimate answer... I mean, what if I stole tchrist's user image and his name? And then I trolled around the site like a jerk? What would happen?

Averruncus

07:34

@RaceYouAnytime Yeah it is a flaw in the system but you can't impersonate anyone easily on the internet. A user like tchrist has like 168K rep, so that's a big difference. tchrist is a mod on two sites, difference number two. He writes differently, difference number three. The list goes on.

I mean unless it is a site like facebook where such incidents happen.

SBM

Oh

Averruncus

Well, here it could happen too, I'm not saying it is impossible.

SBM

[@Averruncus] congrats on the new name

Averruncus

@SBM Heh thanks.

SBM

@[262898] you're welcome.

English Student

10:09

@Averruncus too sorry for unknowingly appropriating your username! I was asleep when you pinged me and messaged me about how to solve the username. This is part of the problem with chat here, that the whole concept of chat is a real-time interaction, but we end up using more like a message board. THANKS A LOT FOR sacrificing your username on my behalf!

English Student

11:12

In ancient Roman religion, Averruncus or Auruncus is a god of averting harm en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averruncus and judging by the kind act of changing the username to avert a great deal of confusion, our Averruncus of ELU chat room is also a very excellent person, methinks!

Tonepoet

13:01

@Averruncus I figured since you were no longer a student, you must have graduated, but perhaps you just dropped out of school instead. =P

tchrist

Averroes

Ibn Rushd (Arabic: ابن رشد‎‎; 14 April 1126 – 10 December 1198), full name (Arabic: أبو الوليد محمد ابن احمد ابن رشد‎, translit. ʾAbū l-Walīd Muḥammad Ibn ʾAḥmad Ibn Rushd‎), often Latinized as Averroes (/əˈvɛroʊˌiːz/), was a medieval Andalusian polymath. He wrote on logic, Aristotelian and Islamic philosophy, theology, the Maliki school of Islamic jurisprudence, psychology, political and Andalusian classical music theory, geography, mathematics, and the mediæval sciences of medicine, astronomy, physics, and celestial mechanics. Ibn Rushd was born in Córdoba, Al Andalus (present-day Spain), and...

Tonepoet

Averruncus

In ancient Roman religion, Averruncus or Auruncus is a god of averting harm. Aulus Gellius says that he is one of the potentially malignant deities who must be propitiated for their power to both inflict and withhold disaster from people and the harvests. Although the etymology of the name is often connected to the Latin verb avertere, "to turn away," a more probable origin lies in averro "to sweep away," hence averrunco, "to ward off," perhaps with a reference to magical sweeping. Varro asserts that the infinitive verb averruncare shares its etymology with the god whose primary function is averting...

tchrist

Avellana

La avellana es el fruto de tipo nuez del avellano común, Corylus avellana. Etimológicamente proviene del latín nux abellana, «fruto seco o nuez de Avella», pueblo de la provincia italiana de Avellino. Tiene forma esferoidal, con un diámetro aproximado de 10 a 15 mm. Está formada por una cáscara fibrosa externa que rodea una cubierta lisa en la que se aloja la semilla. La cáscara fibrosa se seca durante la maduración. == Usos == El núcleo de la semilla es comestible como fruto seco, usándose tanto en crudo como cocinado (entero o en pasta). La piel oscura que recubre la semilla tiene sabor amargo...

Averruncus

@Tonepoet Heh that's funny. By the way, tonepoet I never asked, what's your level of education? I mean I know you like to be secretive here :P but tell me, just for our friendship's sake perhaps?

Or your choice. I don't mean to be nosy.

@Mitch Thanks for the detailed response. Much appreciated. Sorry I couldn't reply earlier.

SBM

hello people

Averruncus

13:52

@SBM Roman Hindi likh leta hon. SMS par bhi isi tarhan hi lekta hun. Is tharha type karna aasaan hain English keyboard par. Par yahan chats main full Engish bolna cool lagta hai.

That is to say I can speak Hindi.

@EnglishStudent You are welcome.

SBM

14:32

@Averruncus रोमन हिन्दी?

‮Guess nobody's here.

Averruncus

@SBM Yeah that.

SBM

OK ‮@Averruncus

Averruncus

So what's up with the mirror writing?

hah

By the way, if you want to write something that is difficult to decode write in Roman Hindi than in Devanagari. I mean not even Google translate works on that.

Paste my above sentence, the "Roman Hindi" one, in Google translate and you will get 100% wrong translation.

SBM

14:57

‮Google translate is awful @Averruncus

did that ping you?

Averruncus

Yeah it did.

SBM

‮interesting.

Averruncus

But reading mirror writing is a recipe for headache.

SBM

I agree. I typed it straight though.

English Student

15:34

@Averruncus what is roman hind?

@Averruncus what is roman hindi?

(Auto correct keyboard converts my correct spellings into nonsense misspellings! )

Averruncus

@EnglishStudent I meant "Romanagari".

Is thara lekh kar jo baat karte hain us ko main Roman Hindi keh raha tha.

SBM

Hinglish is awful

Averruncus

Romanagari

Romanagari, a portmanteau of the words Roman and Devanagari, is a slang word coined by bloggers. It refers to Hindi text written or typed in Roman script, as opposed to the standard Devanagari script. A possible reason for this is that Hindi-speaking computer users may lack tools necessary for typing in Hindi. The term may also be used for other languages that use Devanagari as the standard writing script, such as Marathi, Nepali or Sanskrit. == Example == "Main shurjeel hun.Mera mulk pakistan hai, kitni achhi baat hai ki aaj hum yahan hain, apne pak dharati par. Is mitti ki khushbu, kahin bhi...

No it is not Hinglish. It is just written with English words.

English Student

@Averruncus first time I am hearing this term, but I do know that so many Indians have been using English alphabet (roman) to write SMS in their native languages for years!

terdon

@SBM Why? I find Greeklish (the equivalent practice of writing Greek with Latin characters) very useful. First because writing Greek is a bit of a pain and second because many machines I might be writing from simply don't have the Greek keyboard layout installed or the person I am communicating with can't read Greek on their machine (although this is less of an issue these days with unicode)

SBM

15:43

@terdon Writing hindi is also equally difficult if not more

terdon

@SBM Dunno. I used to know how to write Sanskrit, but never on a computer and never Hindi.

English Student

The earliest examples of English transliteration of Indian languages was the names of Hindi movies on posters which were displayed all over the country ad early as the 1930's, I should think.

terdon

@EnglishStudent Oh, I would expect it goes much further back than that. Consider old telegraph messages using morse. Wouldn't those be likely to be sent using some similar system?

English Student

@Terdon I think the earliest telegraph messages in India were sent in English. I have never heard of sending tranaliterated Indian languages in morse code. Note 2: These Hindi movie names established a standard spelling for transliteration Indian speech such as nasal tones into English. Interestingly a somewhat different spelling convention is used for what is essentially the same language in Pakistan.

SBM

telegraph messages are defunct now. :(

terdon

15:51

@EnglishStudent I have no idea what the case was in Greek. They may have used another language but there wasn't one as widespread in Greece as English was in India due to different historical backgrounds (no colonization). Interesting question, really. I've never heard of Greek-morse code but I guess it probably exists.

Greek is also a "simple" alphabet-based language with an alphabet of 24 letters so I imagine getting morse to work with it would be simple enough. The lack of tonal differences would also simplify things.

English Student

@SBM defunct for all practical purposes, but is India Post still sending 'instant telegram' through Internet?

@terdon very interesting point -- I should think any language could be written in more if the words were to be spelled exactly as pronounced in the original language!

Mitch

@Averruncus how averruncular

English Student

@terdon I mean in morse code, of course.

Averruncus

There is no hard and fast rule for spellings when it comes to transliteration I think. You can say "Me" in transliterated Hindi like "main" or "men". I can understand both very easily.

@Mitch Yeah. Hah.

SBM

even mein

Averruncus

15:56

True.

It is easy.

Mitch

@SBM or of good mien

or of chow mein

SBM

yes

‮@Mitch

Mitch

or of chow mine

@SBM wow. how did that work?

terdon

@EnglishStudent Not if there are more than simple letters involved. Think of accents that change the meaning, or tones etc.

Mitch

MBS@ ?

English Student

15:58

@Averruncus no hard and fast rule of ours, but there are clear conventions based on the way the original Hindi movies were spelled in English -- as I said, there are small but significant differences to the same in Pakistan.

SBM

@Mitch your message doesn't ping

Mitch

I want that power too! What is the secret!?!

Averruncus

@Mitch He is using the software I believe. It is freely available on the net.

SBM

‮It is Unicode.

no software

Mitch

'the software'?

SBM

15:59

only unicode

Mitch

‮@Mitch ? Can you hear me?how did that work @SBM

Averruncus

@EnglishStudent I see. I don't know of the difference though. Can you read Urdu like that?

SBM

I wrote in Right to left like farsi

Mitch

wow

SBM

that's it

English Student

16:00

@terdon very true -- I didn't think of it because accents don't change the meaning (as far as I know) in Indian languages.

Averruncus

@SBM Why put too much effort like that?

SBM

no effort required really

Mitch

I'm magic! but I didn't do anything!

SBM

yes

Mitch

tries to lift x-wing fighter out of swamp with mind

SBM

16:02

‮Neither did I.

Averruncus

It is an effort to me. I'm not used to writing on a keyboard with a mirror.:)

Mitch

busts a couple blood vessels

SBM

I write straight

only one override character in front that's invisible

Mitch

‮@MitchI just copy paste what I wrote backwards before @Averruncus and it just sorta works

what is the override character?

English Student

@Averruncus as you know, Hindi-Urdu is a single language. Example of slight difference in transliteration: I NOTICED that when a word ends in an A sound as in Dil se (just sayin') it is written with an 'e' in India, but 'ay' in Pakistan!

SBM

16:03

U+202E

@EnglishStudent both are acceptable

Mitch

‮@Mitch able was I ere I saw elba

SBM

palindromic masti

English Student

@SBM both are acceptable and both convey the proper pronunciation, but also show the nation of origin -- do you know any Indians who write 'ay' rathrt than 'e' at the end of Hindi-Urdu words ending with A sound?

Mitch

a man a plan a canal panama

haha I wrote that backwards

madam I'm adness

SBM

@EnglishStudent I think yes

Mitch

16:07

Your goal for today: devise a palindrome with 'palindrome' in it.

English Student

@Mitch it's too much. I LEARNed to write English from right to left in mirror script with pen on paper. All the letters are physically reversed from right to lwft. Once the brain makes the adjustment it's very easy. It looks like a foreign language till you look at it in a mirror. Of course you don't have an equivalent with typing!

Averruncus

I would rather use a software. It is boring to write it with hand.

SBM

palindromemordnilap

English Student

@SBM thanks for the new information! I never knew that Indians would end words with 'ay.'

Averruncus

By the way how many languages can you speak @EnglishStudent?

It is like pinging my own name from the past lel.

SBM

16:14

lel ?

Averruncus

@Mitch Four words: You used a software.

Or you are adept at it maybe.

@SBM It is my version of "lol".

English Student

@Averruncus what you are typing here is reversing the order of letters to read from right to left -- the brain has to make a big adjustment which is what gives many a headache.

But mirror writing by hand reverses each alphabetical character as well so it's easy for the brain to read from R to L -- is it possible for me to post an image file as example in chat?

Averruncus

@EnglishStudent Sure. You can paste it.

The button is besides the box where you type in chat.

English Student

@Averruncus it still makes me feel sorry that you needed to change ur name in my behalf! I live in Kerala and my nominal mother tongue is Tamil. I speak Malaysia, Tamil and English but not Hindi which zi can read, write and understand.

SBM

@Averruncus kek

English Student

16:17

Malayalam which this dull keyboard 'corrected' as Malaysia!

SBM

@EnglishStudent Malaysia?

Stupid auto-correcter

disable it.

English Student

@Averruncus I am deeply intrested in cricket and am currently watching Champions trophy SL v SA which could become a thriller...

Averruncus

@EnglishStudent I will get used to my new name. But thanks for the kind words. :)

@EnglishStudent I see. I keep my region a secret in chats here but I can speak Hindi, and some Persian and Arabic too. I have muslims in my family too, that's why.

English Student

Omg got rid of auto correct I thinks ..

Averruncus

Also I have lived several years in the middle east in the past.

:)

English Student

16:26

@Averruncus Do you have cricket mania like 99% Indians

SBM

cricket ❤
Oh

Averruncus

@EnglishStudent Heh I do but I lost the interest when I learned that many matches are fixed and what not. It is fun to watch it, I agree.

terdon

Nobody not born to it will ever understand why you British influenced folks like cricket. I mean, I find watching all sports boring but none quite as boring as cricket.

Averruncus

But personally I like calisthenics more. It is a bodyweight workout. And quite fun @EnglishStudent

It is not a group sport like cricket though.

You can do it if you like to keep in shape for example.

Mitch

@SBM you get points for trying.

@Averruncus wait... 'A software'?

SBM

16:31

@Mitch oh

Mitch

That doesn't parse

'software' is a mass noun, like water or freedom

terdon

@Mitch Which is admittedly annoying. All other languages make software countable, what's wrong with us?

A piece of software is a bit of a mouthful.

Averruncus

@Mitch oh I see. I didn't know I couldn't write "a software".

terdon

You have to either say a piece of software or a program/programme

English Student

@Averruncus have you heard of group calisthenics or mass calisthenics for 'health, unity and prosperity?' Sri Lanka lost their way right in front of me after a brilliant start and South Africa will probably win this contest.

Averruncus

16:33

@terdon okay, thanks a bunch.

English Student

You have to say 'a piece of software' but when using the you can say the software as in I wanted to tweak the settings but the software did not allow it.

SBM

yes

Averruncus

@EnglishStudent Ah yeah that. I have watched some videos of that on Youtube if I remember correctly.

English Student

@Averruncus and SBM I would strongly recommend that you participate in EL & U main site -- seniors like Mitch are amazingly helpful and you would greatly enjoy reading, writing and discussing English language and usage!

SBM

yes

I've written only one or two answers on the ELU SE site

English Student

16:40

@SBM you have very much the right attitude to flourish on a site like ELU!

SBM

@EnglishStudent thank you; but my syntax isn't good enough.

terdon

@SBM For what?

SBM

@terdon For answering questions on the main site.

Mitch

@terdon you don't say that either

Averruncus

@EnglishStudent I would but I'm more into practicing my English here. I basically come here to talk in English, practice English, have fun with the users and ask little questions sometimes. My English is already quite good. I could give answers on the main site though, but there are already many present on the main site. So I'll pass. But thanks for the invite.

terdon

16:42

@Mitch Why not?

SBM

creoles and pidgins are a different thing altogether

terdon

@SBM Then ask, instead :)

Mitch

@EnglishStudent you don't... in AmE at least... you don't say 'a software' or try to make it an object.

English Student

@SBM you may think so but I think your syntax is quite good enough, especially for participating through comments! My own writing improved greatly in a short period by constantly writing answers and comments here.

Mitch

'You used software to autoreverse your text'

Averruncus

16:43

@EnglishStudent Mitch is amazing in chat too. He is a good friend already :)

Mitch

'but probably it was more specific like a key sequence, or Unicode'

SBM

@Mitch That seems much better

terdon

@Mitch Yes, but if you're referring to a specific program, you can say I used the software you gave me to autoreverse my text.

The problem is when you need to use the plural: There are many softwares* that can do this

That's where I end up using ungainly things like There are many pieces of software that. . . if for some reason I can't just use programs.

Or even, it's a great piece of software instead of it's a great software*

Mitch

@terdon 'I drank the water you gave me' 'I drank some water'

Cerberus

I can't think of a situation in which one could not use programme.

Mitch

16:46

that's perfectly fine for mass nouns

terdon

@Cerberus You just used it in the previous sentence :)

Cerberus

So...

terdon

@Mitch Yes, but you seemed to be suggesting that you can't say the software which is what I found odd.

Cerberus

...it wasn't a situation in which you can't use programme.

SBM

programme versus program; there's a difference it seems

terdon

16:47

@Cerberus No, but when writing, it is often useful to use program/software interchangeably to avoid excessive repetition.

Cerberus

The gist of the matter is that you can't use software as a countable noun.

SBM

you can attend the programme but you just run a program

Am I right?

terdon

The program works like this so if you run the program and use the menus of the program the program will tell you that the program has found the previous programm's output was wrong.

That's obviously a crappy sentence for many reasons but that's the sort of repetition I mean.

Cerberus

@terdon Meh, I suppose, but that's usually not a problem.

English Student

@Mitch 'software' is possibly a special case of a word that has both a general and a specific meaning in the same domain. Indians routinely use 'a software' and 'the software' to refer to a piece of software.

terdon

16:49

@SBM No, program and programme are exactly the same thing, it's just BrE vs AmE spelling.

Cerberus

Usually, you have pronouns to save you.

terdon

It is often enough a problem, actually. When writing about software.

Cerberus

Meh.

Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

terdon

Yes. Which is why I would love it if I could use software as a countable noun.

Or, for that matter, evidence. Sigh.

SBM

@terdon I've not seen anybody write that their programme had bugs

terdon

16:50

@SBM You haven't read enough Brits then.

I think

Cerberus

I find that such things usually cease to be a problem once you take some time to figure out what you really want to say and why.

terdon

Now I'm confused though. @MattE.Эллен do you call your software programmes or do you use program for software and programme for the other meanings of the word/

@Cerberus Lucky you.

I must be stupid then, I guess.

Can we assume that I have tried and I have written about this sort of thing a bit more often than you have?

Cerberus

@SBM google.com/…

@terdon I remember talking about this with him.

terdon

@Cerberus Ah, good. I was getting worried there (google actually "corrected" programme bugs to program me bugs!)

Cerberus

I believe I was vacillating but he always wrote programme.

Mitch

16:53

@EnglishStudent SUre. In InE, it way well be a count noun, but in AmE it is totally not.

Averruncus

I'm used to saying "a software'. So I was wrong all along.

terdon

Oddly enough, searching for "programme bugs" tends to return things about tv documentaries on insects and the like. That's what threw me.

Mitch

@terdon mass nouns can take 'the'

'The rice has been cooked too long'

Averruncus

So many forms of English.

terdon

@Averruncus Wrong is subjective. If that's what you say in InE, then that's what's correct for you and who are we to say otherwise?

Averruncus

16:54

Ah yeah.

English Student

@Averruncus I can appreciate that English as used in this chat section is much closer to the spoken for than the much more formal constructions of ELU. Do you get any opportunities to speak in English with native speakers of the language?

terdon

@Mitch Yes, but I would like to be able to say There are many evidences* supporting this conclusion as opposed to This conclusion is supported by many different pieces of evidence or whatever.

Averruncus

Well, @Mitch I blame you for nitpicking above on my sentence then :D

But thanks for correcting me, I mean.

terdon

nitpicking :)

Averruncus

Thanks. Typo :)

Mitch

16:56

@terdon There is a lot of evidence that there are other ways to say that

SBM

‮Typos are so common

Mitch

@terdon pedanting

SBM

pedantic?

terdon

@Mitch The problem with "a lot" is that it doesn't clarify that I am referring to multiple, distinct pieces of evidence but could equally well be talking about a large body of evidence comprised of similar things.

And, like software, evidence is countable in many (most?) languages so it is a construct I've very often had to fix when correcting texts of pineapple friends.

Mitch

@terdon I don't see the distinction

English Student

16:58

@Mitch 'software' became a count noun in Indian English, I think, because Indians usually use the word 'software' to refer to 'program' which is rarely used in general discourse (mainly because 'ptogram' has other meanings such as plan / project / an event)

terdon

@Mitch Well, if your conclusion is supported by very distinct pieces of evidence it can be different than when it is supported by a large volume of homogeneous evidence.

Mitch

@EnglishStudent program means the same in AmE

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…