English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Tonepoet

00:19

@englishstudent Pokemon is more than just a game, it's a social phenomenon, so it was inevitable that you'd learn about the electric mouse eventually because Pikachu is the official mascot of the series. It swept the U.S.A. by storm in the late 1990s and the recent Pokemon Go fad represented a mild resurgence of its widespread allure. Granted, most character names don't make it into dictionaries, but Pikachu is a common noun referring to the species, rather than a proper noun naming an individual

Cerberus

And hello again.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus 'Twas too late to fix that.

Cerberus

Shall I do it in your name?

Tonepoet

@Cerberus Go ahead. I hate typos.

Cerberus

takes notes about the meaning of Pikachu

Incidentally, how do you feel about the mark on Pokémon?

Tonepoet

00:23

@Cerberus Ah wait, recapitalize Pikachu if you would please. When I refer to the name of a word I treat it as a proper noun because words only have one name and each word name refers to just one word. XP

Cerberus

Done.

I think that would be a stylistically acceptable choice, actually.

I think it would not have been uncommon in the 17th century.

Simply using a capital in stead of quotation marks around a (quoted) term.

Incidentally, you said recapitalise; but there never was a capital in your Pikachu before I added it, was there?

Tonepoet

@Cerberus It seems that you are right. I skimmed through the text too hastily without realizing where I originally capitalized the word and where I didn't. XP

Cerberus

OK.

I really wish experienced users were allowed to edit older lines.

It's frustrating, not being able to.

Tonepoet

I can see why there are limitations on that. You can really wreak havoc on a transcript, and I'm a chronic editor myself.

Cerberus

Yes.

But high-reps?

Tonepoet

00:34

@Cerberus I don't know so much about that. Rep. doesn't necessarily correspond to reasonableness, and if you had unlimited ability to edit, your mischief might not be detected because people aren't in the regular habit of reading the transcripts.

Cerberus

Well, what does it matter if you edit your own old line in a naughty way?

Who would even read it?

As long as the history is public, I think it's fine.

Tonepoet

The history isn't public though.

Cerberus

Oh, that's right.

You have to be a room owner.

But the little pencil is visible to anyone.

Færd

@Cerberus I was comparing the media coverages: how news-worthy your life is, and how blameworthy are those who imperil it.

Cerberus

@Færd I really have no idea how you would endeavour to compare the media coverage of two events in different regions!

Færd

00:39

I mean, when you compare the reportage of catastrophes around the world, some of them are just out of proportion with their magnitude.

Cerberus

For one thing, media are likely to pay more attention to local events.

A Chinese newspaper is fare more likely to report about an event that took place in Shanghai than in São Paolo.

Færd

Of course. But not all media should be like that.

Especially if you make news for the whole world as your audience.

Cerberus

Is there such a medium?

Aren't all newspapers local?

The closer to home an event is, the more attention it will get.

Færd

What about those who have tens of stations in different languages?

Cerberus

And "home" can be interpreted in a somewhat broader way: when the people involved in the event are more similar to the subscribers of the newspaper.

@Færd Such as? Aren't they usually still focused on a specific region?

Be it geographical or cultural.

Færd

00:44

To the extent that foreign news is important, foreign news should be proportionately covered.

Cerberus

Proportionate to the geographical and cultural closeness of the people involved in the event to the people who subscribe to the newspaper?

Is that sentence even parsable?

Færd

Awareness and ignorance have their consequences.

If your people are aware of what makes your government's foreign policy, it makes serious changes.

Cerberus

That's absolutely true.

Færd

Peoples can be close to each other in terms other than geography and culture.

Cerberus

Yes.

But it's difficult for a newspaper to take that into account.

Færd

00:51

Especially if it had to take on nationalist, bigoted confrontations.

Which renders it even more necessary.

'Cause what else you want to do if you're in info business?

Cerberus

Let me phrase it in a different manner:

Dutch readers will care about Belgian tax reforms, but less so about Thai tax reforms.

Færd

As they should.

Cerberus

Should the paper be blamed for reporting on the Belgian reforms but not the Thai?

Færd

Not unless the Dutch government has something to do with the Thai tax reforms (which is unlikely).

International interactions tend to happen on bigger scales (first). So tax reforms are spared from my criticism.

Cerberus

And how about an incident of police violence, in the same two countries?

A terrorist attack?

Færd

01:08

I'm not saying media should not be more concerned about local news.

Cerberus

I do kind of understand your point, but I think it's complicated, and I'm not sure what to think in the end.

So I think we'd need to consider examples.

Færd

Suppose an extremist group gained power in Yemen and they sent terrorists to blow up people in the UK.

Is that out of the realm of possibility?

'Cause they have reasons to hold grudges against the UK.

This is why the British must know more about their huge arms deals with Saudi Arabia and its implications.

Cerberus

@Færd On the contrary: they have already tried this several times in Western countries.

Færd

That's my point. Part of it.

Cerberus

I think it is very important that the British newspapers should mention the arms deals prominently.

Færd

01:15

And the disaster that such deals have caused.

But this is rather a selfish justification of why I should know about the woes of other peoples.

Cerberus

But most British newspapers are worthless.

@Færd It's just one factor.

Færd

Another is a kind of moral responsibility.

Cerberus

But the general well-being of the world should concern everyone, and, if your country is involved in that in a certain, specific way, then your media should feature this prominently.

Færd

If hundreds of fucking thousands of people (sorry, my head is spinning) are personally struggling with cholera and hundreds of them have already died of it, then I for one would like to know about it.

Not because I'm their neighbor and someday I might be faced with its waves too. Not just because of that.

And now Trump has stolen the record out of the Brits' hands, with his 300-billion deal.

Cerberus

@Færd Absolutely.

We get news about the situation in Yemen here on a regular basis, in major newspapers.

Færd

01:25

That's good. I thought it was forgotten.

Cerberus

Well, perhaps it has been forgotten by the average British newspaper, which is a rag.

google.com/…

This is one newspaper.

One of the most respectable and big ones.

Færd

@Cerberus Maybe that's because of a reason?

Cerberus

I don't read British newspapers, except occasionally the Guardian, the FT, the Economist.

So I don't know how often they report on Yemen.

Færd

Are they all so government-dependent as to censor it out of financial concerns?

Ah.

Cerberus

But the British press is known to be of lower quality.

@Færd They depend on Murdoch, not the government.

Færd

01:29

Oh.

Cerberus

theguardian.com/media/2015/oct/21/…

Mitch

Why does a flamingo stand on one leg?

Now we know

Cerberus

> The flamingos … when they fall asleep, sometimes they projectile poop.

Good to know.

Mitch

01:44

I missed that

People have better sense, they don't do that

@Cerberus who's supposed to be of good quality?

sumelic

01:59

@Tonepoet Hmm, I know of a Pokémon fan who has this as a pet peeve; she thinks it is grammatically incorrect to capitalize the names of different kinds of Pokémon/Pokemon/pokémon/pokemon, arguing that they should be considered common nouns. I don't think her position is especially solid, though, considering the uncertainty in English about the capitalization of things like "Common Blackbird"

(apparently there were extensive discussions about this on Wikipedia, with the anti-cappers eventually winning, but I think the mere existence of the argument shows it's not clear-cut) @Cerberus see preceding comment

Tonepoet

I think there are relatively good points to make on both parts of the argument in the case of pokemon, because the trainers often treat the species name as if it was a proper noun, and names are often shared. It works well enough for the purposes of the show, as the same species is rarely ever encountered twice in one episode.

However, I think much of that is motivated by the franchise's vested interest in forcing you to memorize the species names and in the real world, most people name their pets, and Pokemon enthusiasts resort to using the possessive case to distinguish between important…

Cerberus

02:59

@sumelic Hilarious!

@Mitch Anyone else!

user314159

03:21

Hello @Cerberus

tchrist

03:49

oft
evil
will
shall
evil
mar

user314159

Why is evil mentioned twice?

tchrist

The second one is the object.

user314159

I don't get it.

tchrist

Are you a native speaker of English?

user314159

yes

tchrist

03:54

Locate the subject.

Then identify the verb.

I already gave you the object.

It's a bit of a garden path sentence making you think it's something it's not.

user314159

I'm not academic enough for this game :(

tchrist

The subject is "evil will".

The verb is "shall mar".

The object is "evil".

"Oft" is a sentence adverb.

user314159

Could you look at my question please?

tchrist

Which one?

user314159

6

Q: Translation of "He has 8 more quarters than dimes." into symbols?

The sentence "He has 8 more quarters than dimes." is often mistranslated by students into the equation 8 + q = d. This is an extremely common error in the usage of English to express daily counting and word problems. My question is: how can I explain in grammatical terms where the error in reason...

tchrist

04:00

> He has eight more quarters than HE HAS dimes.

number_of_quarters = 8 + number_of_dimes

user314159

Would you be interested in posting an answer?

Please :-)

SBM

oh

tchrist

Mitch already answered.

user314159

I didn't understand it.

tchrist

I said that I said, with more words.

user314159

04:06

I want it labeled like the game you showed me.

SBM

Good morning.

user74961284659036576321890754

04:51

Hello

RegDwigнt

10:07

@tchrist just you wait till you hear them try to say Iwata.

They start with Iowa and end up in Nevada, and I have no idea why anyone would want to do any such thing.

Satoru Iwata

Satoru Iwata (Japanese: 岩田聡, Hepburn: Iwata Satoru, December 6, 1959 – July 11, 2015) was a Japanese video game programmer and businessman who served as the fourth president and chief executive officer (CEO) of Nintendo. He is widely regarded as a major contributor in broadening the appeal of video games to a wider audience by focusing on novel and entertaining games rather than top-of-the-line hardware. Born in Sapporo, Japan, Iwata expressed interest in video games from an early age and created his first simple game while in high school. He later majored in computer science at the Tokyo Institute...

Mitch

16:07

@Cerberus Couldn't one say about most countries, that most newspapers are stupid except for the couple of good ones?

@user74961284659036576321890754 Re-reading it I see that it may have left out too much connecting things together (but I still believe its intention is the way to go). I agree with the assumption that beginners tend to translate the English into math incorrectly as you give (or that similarly for experienced people that it is not an immediate conversion (I need to think about it everytime).

What specifically about my answer didn't make sense? (if it is possible to say)

Cerberus

17:53

@Mitch What I meant was that English newspapers are worse on average.

terdon

18:06

@Cerberus Really? Compared to what? The Guardian is one of the best newspapers in the world IMO. And the Times and the Trib aren't too bad either.

Færd

18:47

> dump on:
Criticize or abuse (someone); treat badly.
‘you get dumped on just because of your name’

It's not another term for defecating, is it?

user74961284659036576321890754

It can be.

Færd

Why isn't it marked 'offensive' then?

user74961284659036576321890754

"I took a dump."

Færd

en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/dump_on

@user74961284659036576321890754 I know about that. That's why I'm asking.

user74961284659036576321890754

It's pretty mild.

Færd

18:49

Hmm.

user74961284659036576321890754

Like poo poo

Færd

Thanks. I'm still not sure about the origin though.

user74961284659036576321890754

Or piss off

Færd

This kind of stuff is labeled 'vulgar' or 'offensive' in dictionaries: en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/piss_off

Dump on isn't.

user74961284659036576321890754

How about a garbage dump?

Færd

18:53

I guess it just means pelting someone with criticism or harsh words.

@user74961284659036576321890754 Or that, figuratively.

You have a long screen name.

user74961284659036576321890754

yup

Mitch

20:14

@Færd My feeling is that it is primarily like the action 'to dump some things onto the ground, like the town dump (where refuse is sent). And it's connection with defecating is secondary, like it is a borrowed euphemism for shitting.

"I gotta dump the kids off at school" is informal but not offensive at all.

Mitch

20:25

@Cerberus Yeah, what @terdon said. Guardian and FT (Observer was bought by G). but contra terdon others seem to be crappy. Whereas French newspapers, there are more that are quality LeM, Fig, Lib, Nou Obs (but they have their tabloid/crap too France Soir, Le Midi). Germany all major seem to be OK (FAZ, Zeir, DBT, NZZ, uh.., except for Bild which is the highest % readership by far).

But Italy? Is Corriere della Sera OK? I don't know. El Pais seems respectable but not sure of it or if there are any others). I have no idea about Dutch or Belgian or Scandinavian papers.

Cerberus

@terdon @Mitch Yes, England has some respectable newspapers still, but the big ones are bad. They command a larger share of readership than elsewhere, and they are worse than bad newspapers elsewhere.

This would be unthinkable in Holland, and, I believe, also in France, Germany.

Telegraaf is fairly bad, but still a lot more nuanced and apolitical than the Daily Mail.

AD is actually partly a collective of many local newspapers, but the national news is fairly bad. But the number of subscribers is misleading.

Volkskrant, Trouw, FD, and both NRCs are respectable.

The two Dagbladen are Christian.

I also suspect Bild to be better than the English rags.

Mitch

20:57

@Cerberus haha. the daily mail is laughably crap

Cerberus

And bordering on traitorous...

Mitch

an aside... is treacherous the same as traitorous?

hm... obviously not

but can treacherous be used for traitorous?

traitorous feels weird to me

Cerberus

Mm I think treacherous is much broader.

Treacherous reefs.

Mitch

@Cerberus Really? Daily Mail has a patina of not junk, but Bild has the forthright feel of entertainment for adults

@Cerberus right. that was my 'obvious' ly different

Cerberus

How do you mean? Why is the DM not junl?

Mitch

21:00

@Cerberus What is 'AD'

Cerberus

I do not believe that Bild would declare judges enemies of the people. It's unthinkable.

Mitch

@Cerberus Oh I consider it junk, but it seems to me that it is attempting to be news. If not serious at least acting like it it.

@Cerberus Oh. OK.

These newspapers have complex personalities.

What is your opinion of USA Today?

Cerberus

@Mitch And Bild isn't?

@Mitch Algemeen Dagblad.

@Mitch To be honest, I have never read it.

My guess would be, bad.

Mitch

@Cerberus -Bild always seemed to me on the front page just adult entertainment, not even trying to act seriously. But not tendentious like Daily Mail

Cerberus

Oh, it's tendentious, and lots of gossip. Like all bad newspapers.

But it's not so aggressive and political as the British ones.

Mitch

21:05

@Cerberus There is only one newsstand in town that used to have all the range of European/ME newspapers. That last time I visited I don't think they even had Die Zeit.

Cerberus

Mm they have Die Zeit here, I'm sure.

Mitch

(I don't remember it ever having AD, but that's not a judgement of AD but of this newsstand and the US)

Cerberus

But I never buy newspapers outside my own subscription and the occasional purchase of an online article.

@Mitch AD is bad; no loss there.

Mitch

@Cerberus Every podunk train station in Europe has Die Zeit (and Le Monde and etc etc and Hurriyet etc etc)

also porn

Cerberus

Sure.

Don't you have porn?

Mitch

21:07

@Cerberus OK

Cerberus

AD is a combination of a bad national paper and tons of regional ones.

Mitch

@Cerberus It is, to use the most accurate but derogatory word available, retarded.

Cerberus

OK but surely it is no worse than the Sun or the DM?

Mitch

It's not tendentious. It doesn't have the depth or complexity of writing to be tendentious.

Cerberus

It's not aggressive and political, but rather about gossip?

Mitch

21:10

You start a fron page article about some complicated news event and you read down the column for two paragraphs nd you turn the page to see the rest of the article but... you go back tot he column and can't find the 'see page x) and you search all over the pages back and forth and then you realize... that was it. That's all that was written. It wasn't in the bullet pointed section of 'world' stories with a sentence or two about different countries, that's just all there was.

@Cerberus no it's a total news newspaper. it's just brain dead.

There. Sorry. had to get that out. Thanks you for allowing me to prompt you to ask me.

Cerberus

@Mitch Haha, well, that may also happen to good newspapers when they just haven't had the time or the budget...

This is very Bild...

Gossip is prominent, but also news.

And they also often have the main headline about news.

Mitch

also nontrivial ads

@Cerberus but it is all articles

Cerberus

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by either of those lines.

Mitch

21:34

@Cerberus Bild has 3 big ads there

Cerberus

It needs to remain true to its superficial nature.

Mitch

@Cerberus (form memory) all USA today articles are short and fit on the page they're started on.

Cerberus

@Mitch That's short indeed.

Mitch

@Cerberus I don't know about online. it's hard to compare.and many of these I don't know the online version at all.

eg I'd never imagine thinking of looking on purpose at daily mail online unless I clicked unknowingly on a link.

Also, news is so old-fashioned and pre- post-modernism.

I don't even bother making my own reality

reality is for chumps

I just wallow in the haze of brightly colored lights, country music ballads, and scented candles.

I... I...

Are you my day nurse? I'm trying to get through this door

I don't read anymore but the sign used to say "Don't let patients out this way'

I never understood that because I'm already outside aren't I?

rubs eyes

blows nose

Where were we? Oh yeah. The crossword puzzle in USA today.

I'm having trouble coming up with more erudite words beyond 'stupid'.

What's a three letter word for a pet that meows?

the longest words are 5 letters long.

haha, that's an exaggeration.

only sort of

There's no word for it because it doesn't exist. hahaha. No, really. — Mitch 19 secs ago

Robusto

21:50

@RegDwigнt: So what actually does Крым болеет! так держать mean? The notoriously obtuse Google Translate gives it as "Crimea is sick! Keep it up" ... which is a weird thing to say in the context of congratulating someone on a bicycle achievement.

@Cerberus I would call it overly tidy or, indeed, rather fussy.

@Cerberus I like that they have an article about Helmut Kohl's 80th birthday next to two topless women who look like they were photographed in some fußball locker room.

@Mitch Ass?

terdon

@Mitch El Pais is up there with the Guardian and Le Monde. No question about it.

Cerberus

23:17

@Robusto And superficial?

@Robusto Yup, both topics must be of aequal interest to its readers.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…