English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

KitFox

19:00

It's my own fault for trying to do things this way.

I just wanted to learn something new.

Now I'm all in a kerfuffle.

Matt Эллен

it seems like you're trying to do the right thing

KitFox

I want to be able to build a where clause for the filters, and apply that to whatever query is passed.

Maybe I am just doing that in a bad way.

Maybe turning in this paperwork will help me think about it.

Matt Эллен

OK. hopefully

I'm gonna go and buy some snacks, can I get you anything?

KitFox

No thanks.

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox hmmmm, i'm not sure if that will work

can you paste the whole method?

KitFox

19:12

Uh...

I think I can get it to work if I build an expression and add it. It's an awful lot of work though.

FumbleFingers

hi

KitFox

I don't know if I can paste it in a useful fashion. It is in several pieces.

@FumbleFingers Hi.

FumbleFingers

looks like my bounty on english.stackexchange.com/questions/57816/… is going begging

JSBᾶngs

the reason you might not be able to add a where clause on an arbitrary query is that you don't know if the table object you're querying against even has that column

RegDwight Ѭſ道

0

Q: Is this sentence intuitively readable without special effort?

This question is related to this linguistics question: http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/1590/limits-on-center-embedding-in-english . I was told to ask linguistically native speakers, so I am hoping a non-linguist could say. Consider the following extremely melodramatic short story. ...

grammar

FumbleFingers

19:14

oh lawks! - have I stumbled into "larn thasen SQL"?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Don't know about the final sentence, because he lost me at the comma after the very first word.

Either way, this amounts to a subjective poll of a random group of people.

KitFox

That looks more like Writers to me.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Nah.

Polls are not welcome anywhere.

FumbleFingers

@RegDwightѬſ道 haha - I think both the original writer and OP there are just taking the piss. Obviously if you want to make the effort, it's parseable - but it's drivel, imho

RegDwight Ѭſ道

He is not asking for a rewrite.

FumbleFingers

19:18

as ever, I'm disappointed there are people keen to dive in with an "answer"

RegDwight Ѭſ道

10k people, no less.

Cerberus

Oh God, not Ron.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Use your votes.

Cerberus

> I have no PhD, I am almost entirely self taught. I like physics, but I think the professionals are, for the most part, completely competent. I have a lot of my own personal theories about physics which I like to spread online. I am unemployed, but not by choice. Despite this, I consider myself to be the next Isaac Newton.

FumbleFingers

@RegDwightѬſ道 23K and 18K, in fact. Do they really need the points, in exchange for the shame?

Cerberus

19:20

I have come to believe that the above text is no joke.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@FumbleFingers Could be genuine interest.

I am pretty sure that Hellion ain't here for the reps.

FumbleFingers

@RegDwightѬſ道 misplaced if so

@RegDwightѬſ道 yes, i dint really mean that. but i wish they'd stick to comments, or re-raise it as a proper question if there is one lurking there

Cerberus

I think the question is legitimate, and there is a definitive answer.

I just dislike his premises and his style.

FumbleFingers

@Cerberus yeah, i can't argue with that

Cerberus

He wanted to know this, and he got answer.

And it is somewhat non-worthless information.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

19:22

I don't know anything about him since I don't hang up on Ling at all.

Cerberus

I do.

FumbleFingers

@Cerberus no he dint. he wanted to set the cat among the pigeons!

Cerberus

You should see his monstrous questions there.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus I dunno, how is this information not 100% what any sane person would expect?

Cerberus

He has the habit of repeatedly adding several pages of text to his old questions.

@RegDwightѬſ道 I didn't say he was sane.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

19:23

Ha.

Fair enough.

Cerberus

I don't know, he has put in a lot of effort, and he is genuinely interested.

And he is usually fairly polite, if you disregard his profile text.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I am genuinely interested in a recipe for a tasty egg-salad sandwich.

And I am sometimes polite.

Cerberus

Egg, salt, pepper, lots of mayonnaise, a bit of Worcester sauce.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

No bread???

Cerberus

And some ordinary lettuce, all on milk bread.

That's my recipe.

FumbleFingers

19:26

@RegDwightѬſ道 I shall be interested to follow up on my latest Q in linguistics about "universal" adjective sequence linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/1607/… in case it tells me anything about how all humans organise information.

Cerberus

It's really the best kind of egg-salad sandwich.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus Awesum thx now post it on main sight pls so I can except.

Cerberus

I dare you to post the question!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Shrug.

I will post seven.

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers I think it is a fairly universal thing in languages that normally put the adjective before the noun.

But I think it's complicated.

FumbleFingers

19:28

@RegDwightѬſ道 nah - you really need a coupla slices of nice ripe avocado pear in your egg-salad sarnie! (also good in BLT)

Cerberus

I think topic–focus plays a part, and the echoing of past and implicit structures.

Ohh I like avocado so much.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I am trying to wrap my head around the order in Russian but it escapes me.

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers You know what's also great? Avocado-potato salad.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Because there isn't simply a single factor that determines it.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

In any case it's way more liberal than the English.

Cerberus

And stress in spoken language is also important.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

19:29

English used to be way more liberal, too, when it still had cases.

FumbleFingers

@Cerberus as I've been learning from my "think him to be stupid" interaction with JohnLawler, everything is complicated

Cerberus

In adjective order?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Then it traded flexibility for less inflection.

@Cerberus dunno but I wouldn't be surprised.

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers Notice, by the way, than Jon Purdy said here that he regularly says "I think him x".

@RegDwightѬſ道 But English is also fairly flexible.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Not as flexible as Russian or other highly inflecting languages.

FumbleFingers

19:31

@Cerberus i dint notice that. I do not think Jon to be stupid! :)

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I don't know jack about Latin but from what I hear, there you can put the words in pretty muich any order as well, because the endings will still tell you everything you need to know.

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers I do not deem him stupid either!

FumbleFingers

anyway, on current showing, I can't bring myself to accept any answers on the "to be about 50" Q, so it'll go by default unless someone puts something in within the next hour or two

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 The point is not that you can, but whether you will.

But, yes, Latin and Greek are more flexible than English.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Again, dunno about Latin. Them are dead anyway.

FumbleFingers

19:34

@Cerberus "deem" is a borderline case. Can I say "I deem him to be stupid"? Hmm... jury is out on that one.

Cerberus

But what people notice most is the flexibility in Latin poetry, which is far greater than in prose.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

But in Russian, yes, any order you can think of someone will eventually use without much thinking.

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers Sounds atypical to me. I wouldn't say it myself.

6

Q: Does Pirahã syntax contradict the principles of Universal Grammar?

The Wikipedia article on Universal Grammar cites the research by Everett (2005) about the Pirahã language: Finally, in the domain of field research, the Pirahã language is claimed to be a counterexample to the basic tenets of Universal Grammar. This research has been primarily lead by Daniel ...

syntax universal-grammar piraha

See this question for a fun answer by Ron.

You shouldn't read it, just scroll through it.

FumbleFingers

@Cerberus I certainly don't like "I deem he is stupid"

RegDwight Ѭſ道

My life is too short to scroll past it.

Cerberus

19:35

@FumbleFingers Eek!

@RegDwightѬſ道 Then zoom out as far as you can.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@FumbleFingers "Deemingly, stupid he is."

@Cerberus My browser can't go below 1%.

FumbleFingers

@RegDwightѬſ道 wots that? archaic yoda-speak?

Cerberus

That should be enough.

Owl-speak.

Hey @FF, wasn't it Allo, Allo where they say "the owl flies at night" all the time?

As some sort of password?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@FumbleFingers seeing how he's from long, long ago, Yoda is archaic by definition.

Cerberus

@ME might know this as well...

RegDwight Ѭſ道

19:38

Wow, when does he find the time to type all that?

He's posted another question already.

FumbleFingers

@Cerberus here's a bit of owl-speak I just found... coal claws: n. The deadliest kind of battle claws, with bonk coals embedded in the tips.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Bonk coals allow you to go bonkers with more ease.

Cerberus

Hah, never heard of that...

FumbleFingers

@RegDwightѬſ道 I know little of owls except when you get close enough you can see they're powerful killing machines

3

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Oct 8 '11 at 22:05, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

Go see an ornithologist.

FumbleFingers

19:42

my in-house chef is in the final stages of meal preparation. Time for me to go and adopt "hungry fledging" pose... bfn chaps!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Apr 30 '11 at 14:10, by Vitaly

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

ok you win

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers Have fun!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't get the punch line. Is there a punch line?

It kind of drifts off and invokes a Deus Ex Machina ending.

Cerberus

19:46

I don't get it either.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's a starhorse. like a starfish, only with horse heads.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That explains everything. Thank you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

anyway it has a linguistic aspect, in that it talks about the passive voice and I think it gets it right.

of course I no longer trust myself or anyone to know what the passive voice actually is.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

12

A: How can I reliably and accurately identify the passive voice in writing or speech?

A clause in the passive voice must have all the following: A form of an auxiliary verb (usually be or get) The past participle of a transitive verb No direct object The subject of the verb phrase is the entity undergoing an action or having its state changed Optionally, the agent is expressed...

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 the passive voice is the one that gives in

RegDwight Ѭſ道

19:51

Yeah that's basically what nohat means as well.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

pfft nohat. as if he ever answered a question correctly.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I think I'll pin that for two weeks.

Matt Эллен

so you can't use the passive voice to speak in present tense?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Where you got that from.

Matt Эллен

well, you always have to use a past participle

RegDwight Ѭſ道

19:56

The main verb is the auxiliary one.

Matt Эллен

oh!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Be drawn. Is drawn. Was drawn. Will be being drawn, um, have/

Matt Эллен

I am given books by the president

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah I should have written

pfft. As if questions about the passive voice were ever correctly answered by nohat.

wait: is it still passive if I make it counterfactual? Is counterfactual the right word? I'm just making stuff up now

Matt Эллен

I haven't been given books by any president

so, I think so

RegDwight Ѭſ道

19:59

Who is here? I hear voices. Passive voices.

Matt Эллен

Who is here!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

The Who?

Matt Эллен

Oh, so that's a statement using the passive voice?

Cerberus

I still don't get the "jerks" punchline.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus it's a secondary punchline

the first punchline is in the penultimate box

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:02

It speaks volumes that there's no line in that box at all.

Cerberus

But it has no text!

KitFox

What?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Jinx

Cerberus

nonplussed

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@KitFox scroll up till you see a disturbing image. Then scroll a bit more.

Way to ruin Kit's experience, @Cer.

Cerberus

20:03

Sorry.

I was probably too late anyway.

Can't you hear her scrolling?

And her brain creaking?

Matt Эллен

►

Cerberus

It may be small, she being a small animal, but still.

KitFox

How did I miss the cartoon over that beautiful picture of Reg's mom?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Haha...right...

KitFox

Oh Kylie, Kylie. You change my mind every time I think MrShiny has made me straight.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:05

@MattЭллен I want to unsee that.

Matt Эллен

I hope you didn't listen to the whole song. It's been stuck in my head for 20 years

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Get a screw.

Matt Эллен

or more

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yeah, get two screws.

Matt Эллен

:D

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:06

Sicher ist sicher.

KitFox

moar iz beter

RegDwight Ѭſ道

And fewer is more!

Robusto

I am interested in discussing QA qua QA.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

You sound like a frog.

Matt Эллен

qua qua qua

Robusto

20:07

Rickety-rax koax koax!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

What is this, the French room?

Matt Эллен

I sound like a posh duck

Robusto

@MattЭллен Poofter duck, you mean.

KitFox

If no elephants have two tails, and one elephant has one more tail than no elephants, then an elephant has three tails.

3

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Obligatory:

Feb 9 '11 at 21:45, by Kosmonaut

My officemate is Russian and he swears constantly, and I always know if he is IM'ing me from his iPhone because suddenly he will use the word "ducker".

Matt Эллен

20:08

Either, either, neither neither, lets call the whole thing off

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Or not.

Robusto

Let's call it Gershwin.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox a maz ing

KitFox

And yet, I can't get this stupid control to work.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto who are the Gersh and why would they win?

Robusto

20:09

►

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Surreptitious advertising?

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 You said this was the French room.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

amazon.de/Ma-Zone-Zap-Mama/dp/B00000JZSQ/ref=ntt_mus_dp_dpt_1

How's that for recursion.

@Robusto I never said that.

I asked if.

Robusto

28 secs ago, by Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 Did you mean recursion?

@RegDwightѬſ道 Let's not split errs.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightѬſ道 if you have to ask...

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:13

I don't have to.

Matt Эллен

:D

Robusto

I think we were talking about poofter ducks.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I can just merge you all into Thursagen, throw away the keys and go play with LEGO.

Matt Эллен

in a deterministic universe you did have to

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Brainducks. Clusterducks.

This iPhone doesn't work.

Robusto

20:14

@RegDwightѬſ道 Siriously, dude ...

RegDwight Ѭſ道

^ Siriously dude.

Robusto

I'll see your dude and raise you The Dude.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

This aggression will not stand.

Robusto

I hate the fuckin' Owls, man.

Or Eagles. Wevs.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Hey now, the owl ties this room together.

Robusto

20:17

@RegDwightѬſ道 You mean coitus?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Ergo sumus.

Robusto

Jul 29 '11 at 15:24, by Robusto

@RegDwight — You mean coitus?

Matt Эллен

yesterday, by Cerberus

@MattЭллен Some people get aroused by odd things that aren't human...

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Ergo Versicherungsgruppe

Die Ergo Versicherungsgruppe Aktiengesellschaft (eigene Schreibweise ERGO) ist ein international tätiger Versicherungskonzern mit Hauptsitz in Düsseldorf, der über 50.000 Mitarbeiter beschäftigt. Ergo gehört zur Münchener Rückversicherungs-Gesellschaft Aktiengesellschaft in München (Munich Re), einem der weltweit führenden Rückversicherer. Mit Versicherungsbeiträgen in Höhe von 20 Milliarden Euro ist die Ergo der drittgrößte Erstversicherer in Deutschland im Jahr 2010. Konzernübersicht Die Konzernaktivitäten lassen sich in die Bereiche Lebensversicherung (Ergo Lebensversicherung), Kr...

Robusto

Wow, just when I thought this room couldn't get any more boring, you have to go bring up insurance.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:20

Feb 23 '11 at 14:13, by Robusto

@RegDwight — Wow, it already happened. And you did it in a single line. I bow in your direction.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 Yeah. Remember those good old days? It took you 9 lines and a Wikipedia citation to do what you used to be able to do in one line. Gettin' old, dude.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

So why does the flag counter go up if there's no flags.

Matt Эллен

it's all down to the magic of zero

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I want to see the juicy verboten stuff, dammit!

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 It was verboten boring stuff.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:23

Still, flags are a powerful tool for cross-site promotion.

Robusto

Alles nicht verboten ist erlaubt?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Wow. German with Russian grammar. Now I've seen everything.

Matt Эллен

you've not seen nothing yet

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I've seen Putin on the Ritz.

Robusto

Couldn't figure out how to say it. I started with: Alles, was nicht verboten ist, ist erlaubt. But that seemed clumsy. Russian grammar seemed an improvement.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:25

Anyways. Here's the deal.

1. Flag all pictures of unicorns in this room.
2. ...
3. Profit!

Matt Эллен

:D

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 Georgia cracker.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto That would've been impeccable German BTW. Also, the succinctest.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 We should have an interrobang-type tool which would permit us to star and flag a post at the same time.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Shoulda gone with my gut.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto are you trying to save yourself one click?

You can star and then flag.

And you are bored anyway.

Robusto

20:27

@RegDwightѬſ道 It's about efficiency.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

So knock yourself out.

Robusto

Ow! That hurt. And I'm still awake.

And bored.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

WHOA. Hold the presses. At last, I have invented a tool to punch people in the face over the Internet.

Robusto

Please, not in the face.

And it's "Stop the presses."

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I knew you would say that.

Which was the reason why I went with a different verb in the first place.

Gigili

20:29

@Robusto You don't need a comma after Alles, I'd say.

Robusto

Apr 17 '11 at 18:03, by Robusto

Yeah. Deja vu is a bitch. And then you have to deal with it all over again.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Where's our mercs anyway. We are actually behind. It's almost like it's Friday or something.

KitFox

YES!!!! Bitches!!! I did it. In your fsckin' face, you stupid control!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Jul 7 '11 at 13:55, by RegDwight

Whoa, that was unexpected.

Robusto

12 mins ago, by Robusto

Wow, just when I thought this room couldn't get any more boring, you have to go bring up insurance.

Except substitute Visual Basic for insurance.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:32

I don't think bitches are in the insurance business.

JSBᾶngs

you obviously don't know the insurance business very well

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Not very. I'll settle for well.

Robusto

Wrong.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Stop posting pictures of Tim Curry.

Robusto

That's Flo the Progressive Insurance Gal. Show a little respect.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:34

Looks more like Flo the Progressive Booksorter to me.

I don't think insurances are in the business of sorting thousands of identical books. Then again I don't know the insurance business very well.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 There are whole websites devoted to Flo the Progressive Insurance Gal. Shrines, in their way.

@RegDwightѬſ道 What part of "insurance is boring" didn't you understand?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Gee, just how could I live my life oblivious of those shrines.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 Hey, you could be the first to build a Flo the Progressive Insurance Gal out of LEGO.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto It's the is. It really depends on what your definition of is is.

@Robusto LEGO Technic, yes. And then it would bubble-sort thousands of identical books.

Robusto

RegDwight Ѭſ道

20:39

Well now that this room's been summed up in a handy image, I'll proceed to the throwing away the keys part.

Robusto

Kind of puts a bow on it, yeah?

Matt Эллен

@KitFox WOOHOO!

Robusto

Wow, who knew VB gave off pheromones?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I dunno. Lenin?

Matt Эллен

Jesus

and Einstein

KitFox

20:50

OK, I'm leaving on a high note. Catch you all later.

Matt Эллен

cya @KitFox :)

Robusto

High note. ^

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…